Canadians and Americans at the University of Queensland

[jessicarabbit]

I just have so many questions and no idea where to get the answers so I'm gonna post them here and if anybody can help me with these, I'll be forever grateful!!!

1) Is an MBBS degree equivalent to an MD?

2) How easy will it be for me to return back to Canada or the U.S. after completing my degree in Australia?

3) How difficult is it for a Canadian like me to get a residency in Australia?

4) How are the clinical rotations set up exactly? It's different from the North American system. Can anybody clarify it for me? Clinical Core Rotations 1 and 2????

5) Is it possible to do some elective rotations in the U.S.? Is that organized by the school or is it up to the student to organize it?

6) How hard is it to get a student VISA for Australia and what are the costs?

As you can all see, I've got tons of questions so any help would be great. Thanks so much!

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[Cziffra]

Hi, I'm from Canada too, though I'm also from Hong Kong and Singapore! I guess I can speak to you from a more non-American point of view.

I just have so many questions and no idea where to get the answers so I'm gonna post them here and if anybody can help me with these, I'll be forever grateful!!!

1) Is an MBBS degree equivalent to an MD?

Yes, most definitely. In fact, the MBBS has a far longer history and probably more recognized than the American MD anywhere outside of North America. I believe it was about the time of William Osler that the American/Canadian med schools started changing the MB degree that they conferred to an MD degree, just to signify a major change in their curricula. For example, Dr. Norman Bethune and Dr. Banting from Canada was originally granted an MB (Bachelor of Medicine) degree by the University of Toronto, not an MD. You can almost say that the MBBS (or MBChB) is the father of North American MD, as medical education in North America was started by Scottish physicians from Edinburgh, I believe.

The American/Canadian MD is actually a fairly misleading title, as it sounds like a doctoral degree but is in fact an undergraduate degree. The European/Australian/Singaporean,etc MD is a true doctoral degree and is research-based. Enrolment in a European MD usually requires the applicant to have completed about 5 years of clinical service with lots of research experience. In Hong Kong, North American MDs are forbidden by the HK Medical Council to call themselves doctorates; they can only call themselves, e.g. "graduate of Yale Medical School", recognizing the fact that the N.American MD degree could potentially be misleading to the general public.

In conclusion, I'd just say that MBBS and MD are different names of the same thing. One isn't better than the other. In Asia and many parts of Europe, the MBBS is more recognized and people there might ask you if an American MD is legitimate. Likewise, North Americans might wonder if the MBBS is legitimate.

2) How easy will it be for me to return back to Canada or the U.S. after completing my degree in Australia?

Difficult, but not impossible. More difficult if you're not happy with being placed in Family Medicine, Psychiatry, Paediatrics...etc.

3) How difficult is it for a Canadian like me to get a residency in Australia?

4) How are the clinical rotations set up exactly? It's different from the North American system. Can anybody clarify it for me? Clinical Core Rotations 1 and 2????

5) Is it possible to do some elective rotations in the U.S.? Is that organized by the school or is it up to the student to organize it?

6) How hard is it to get a student VISA for Australia and what are the costs?

Other members can probably answer these questions better than I can.

Some members think that international students studying medicine in Australia are stupid. Perhaps a minority of them are truly stupid, but I'd bet many of them are brilliant, and the few members (you know who they are) who consistently belittle Aussie schools are the truly stupid ones. Not sure if they've ever travelled overseas; and if they have, whether they open their eyes. From my first hand knowledge, the int'l students from Singapore, Hong Kong and many other parts of Asia are truly outstanding academically. It's hard to beat the brains there. Trust me, having lived in different countries, I'm fairly certain that the reputable med schools in Australia and other parts of the world (Melbourne, UQ, Edinburgh, Oxford, NUS, etc.) are no worse, if not better, than the lesser known ones in Canada and the USA.

 

[VietMD]

Hi Cziffra,
I swung by this forum accidentally and I am forced to say something b/c you don't seem to know well about med schools in the US.
1/ MD means a licensed physician in the U.S. It takes AT LEAST 11 years to have this title ( 4 yr undergrad + 4 yr med + 3 least residency). In fact, this doctorate degree is about PRACTICE, not about research. If you do some search about US education system, there are two types of doctoral degree: research and practice. PhD is research and others ( Doctor of Law, Doctor of Education, etc...) is practice. Thus, a MD in US means you're a licensed doctor. And you can tell which degree (MD or MBBS) takes longer time. In fact, the average yrs for a doctor in the US is 12-13 yrs.
2/ If you said the HK government forbidden a MD called themselves doctorates, please give quote. Don't tell something like this w/o evidence. But this is true, if you're a foreign MD (even from Europe) or MBBS, you're NOT eligible to practice in the US (and thus you're NOT called a doctor) unless you're ECFMG certified. For more information, please visit www.ama.org
3/The idea behind Doctor of Medicine in the US is American people would like their doctors are excellent in both skills and personal communication. You can't have this type of training for a fresh high school graduate. As you're going thru 4 yrs undergrad, you become more mature.
4/Please advise people if you know more.

to jessicarabbit
My uncle used to work in the admission committee for surgery residency at MSU Grand Rapids. He told me that if you're American and can't not get in to US med schools (both DO and MD). You should think about Caribbean med schools. Do NOT think about any others school. You're going to the caribbean there for only 2 yrs and spend the rest 2 yrs side by side US med student. Residency, in the end, is the matter where you have your clinical exp and who you know. Your LoR is from a US hospital will stronger than any other IMG. Remember, your goal is US, not Aus. From his exp, I would say you have more chance if you go from the top three caribbean schools than you'll study here.
Good luck.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Please Ignore the majority of what VietMD wrote in broken english and look it up for yourself.

Here are some answers which you can easily find the Info for:

MD and MBBS are exactly the same degree. The only difference is that in the UK, Ireland and other countries that use the MBBS (or similar designation) degree you are not a doctorate. In order to get the "MD" degree in these countries you have to be a PHD. That route is exactly the same as the PHD/MD degree in the USA.

The years of school are almost identicle. In the UK/Ireland/AU etc, a high school student can enter a 6 year program to be a physician. They do 6 years of school and 3-4 years of residency for a total of 10 years on average (completing the exact same pre reqs. as US students). In the USA students must have a minimum number of credits with expected courses. This often translates into an undergrad degree. However, the majority of your undergrad is unrelated to medicine. Only the core classes such as physics, Chem, Bio and O chem are tested for on the MCAT (along with english). So in reality, 4 years undergrad 4 years med school and 3-4 years of residency = 11-12 years total. Of which, 2 years is absolutely irrelevant and basically a money drain for you, ergo, same amount of education in UK and USA.

His assumptions that a caribbean med school LOR (from US clinicals) has any bearing on entrance is very false. The truth is, there is only one thing that matters and that is the scores you get on the USMLE's as an FMG. All FMG's are at an equal disadvantage. While a LOR from the USA is nice, it wont make up for poor USMLE scores, ask all the FMG's that cant get back in the country. The upside, as i see it, to a caribbean education is that it is catered to the USMLE's although there are many schools (such as St Chris in the UK) that are also setup this way.

In anycase, much of this is easily avaliable just by talking to the schools your interested in. The things you want to check and know when talking to schools are:

1) How many grads got residency in the US and what types of residencies (this makes a difference as some residencies are easy to get into (family practice) while others are not (rad). That will give you an idea of USMLE scores.

2) ask if they have a stat on pass rates and scores for USMLE step 1.

These are important questions to ask. Good Luck

 

[pitman]

My uncle used to work in the admission committee for surgery residency at MSU Grand Rapids. He told me that if you're American and can't not get in to US med schools (both DO and MD). You should think about Caribbean med schools. Do NOT think about any others school.

yeah, right. ignore all other schools in the world except for Carib. that's a laugh.

You're going to the caribbean there for only 2 yrs and spend the rest 2 yrs side by side US med student. Residency, in the end, is the matter where you have your clinical exp and who you know. Your LoR is from a US hospital will stronger than any other IMG. Remember, your goal is US, not Aus.

1) How to Get Residency fallacy...already covered above.

2) LORs from the US, while not critical, do certainly help, which is why Australian schoools allow int'l (e.g., US) rotations. doh!


btw the "half"-broken english resembles that of the banned conspiracist, GMC, defending the banned troll, sydnophobe:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=200907

 

[VietMD]

Hi Mike Mackinnon,
English is my second language and I was in rush last time. Attacking linguistic issue is not a professional manner. It seems ridiculous to compare doctors around the world. Each country has their own systems to train doctor. I don't argue about this. In the end, doctor is doctor. Who cares?

Please Ignore the majority of what VietMD wrote in broken english and look it up for yourself.

to Jessica,
I'm concerning because you're an American and you want to practice in the U.S. Let answer these questions by yourself:

1/ Let face the fact that you're seeking a foreign medical school because you couldn't get in to any U.S. medical schools (DO or MD). So when you're coming back, the medical degree you obtained is already inferior to your counterpart in the US. So the problem here is finding the best foreign medical school. Which one is the best?

2/You know that the U.S. medical schools select the best graduates from undergrad institutions. You also know that Aus med schools will select their best high school students. In fact, about 10% US med student hold an advanced degree ( Master or PhD). Let ask yourself, why do you have to find another bachelor degree?

3/Mike said US med student study only 2 years in 4 year undergrad for bio, chem, Eng, physic because he doesn't attend a US undergrad institution. You know if you simply have 1 yr bio, 1 yr chem, 1 yr phy, and 1 yr Eng, NO U.S. med school will take you. You used to applied to US med schools. You should know they require clinical experiences, research, and other relevant courses such as microbiology, genetics, etc..(even they did not say so). By now, if you're a traditional student, you should have at least 1 B.S. degree in Chem, Bio, or Biomedical. Is it right?

4/Back to Caribbean issue, if you're applying for residency, you're expected to have decent scores. Let assume there are 1 FMG from Caribbean and 1 FMG for 1 spot residency. They both have the same USMLE scores. However, a guy from Caribbean has a LoR from this hospital. He knows every staff here because he did his rotations here. He even knows the admission committee. Who do you think will have this spot?

4/Now, Let assume that you have residency in the U.S. and become a licensed physician. You know what your income depends on patients. How do you get patients? From patients and from doctors. With a MBBS degree, who know about that degree? You know there are only complete types of physician in the U.S.: MD and DO. The patient will think the same way. How can they trust you if you're holding a Bachelor degree? Do you think that other physicians will prefer to you or to anther MD (even from Caribbean)? I called 3 physicians today. 2 of them say "don't know about MBBS. The last one said "yes and should not do". You can make a quick check by calling doctors and hospitals in the U.S.

5/In the end, you are the ONLY one who pays money, not everyone here, not any Aus med schools, not anyone gave you advice. If you can't get in US residency, who cares? They had your money, that's it.

Regards,

 

[pitman]

1/ Let face the fact that you're seeking a foreign medical school because you couldn't get in to any U.S. medical schools (DO or MD).

Bad inference -- you think that's the only type of person who educates abroad? You're a couple years behind on this forum, dude.

So when you're coming back, the medical degree you obtained is already inferior to your counterpart in the US.

Assuming your problem here is your lack of an understanding of English...let's just say "inferior" is not appropriate.

2/You know that the U.S. medical schools select the best graduates from undergrad institutions. You also know that Aus med schools will select their best high school students. In fact, about 10% US med student hold an advanced degree ( Master or PhD). Let ask yourself, why do you have to find another bachelor degree?

Huh? what are you trying to say here? That MBBS is not equivalent to an MD, or that Oz takes only school-leavers (both claims of which are flat out wrong)?

3/Mike said US med student study only 2 years in 4 year undergrad for bio, chem, Eng, physic because he doesn't attend a US undergrad institution. You know if you simply have 1 yr bio, 1 yr chem, 1 yr phy, and 1 yr Eng, NO U.S. med school will take you. You used to applied to US med schools. You should know they require clinical experiences, research, and other relevant courses such as microbiology, genetics, etc..(even they did not say so). By now, if you're a traditional student, you should have at least 1 B.S. degree in Chem, Bio, or Biomedical. Is it right?

no, that isn't right. but thanks for asking.

-pitman

 

[pitman]

4/Back to Caribbean issue, if you're applying for residency, you're expected to have decent scores. Let assume there are 1 FMG from Caribbean and 1 FMG for 1 spot residency. They both have the same USMLE scores. However, a guy from Caribbean has a LoR from this hospital. He knows every staff here because he did his rotations here. He even knows the admission committee. Who do you think will have this spot?

Already covered above, but to repeat: US LORs, which while not critical, help in general, which is why Australian schools allow US rotations.

4/Now, Let assume that you have residency in the U.S. and become a licensed physician. You know what your income depends on patients. How do you get patients? From patients and from doctors. With a MBBS degree, who know about that degree? You know there are only complete types of physician in the U.S.: MD and DO. The patient will think the same way. How can they trust you if you're holding a Bachelor degree? Do you think that other physicians will prefer to you or to anther MD (even from Caribbean)?

Been there, done that. Please see the myriad of threads on this silly topic.

5/In the end, you are the ONLY one who pays money, not everyone here, not any Aus med schools, not anyone gave you advice. If you can't get in US residency, who cares? They had your money, that's it.

Huh? I'm here. I choose to be here. I pay the school my money. So what?

 

[JBA]

This topic has been argued so many times in the past that it is almost pointless to post about it again. However, VietMD is giving some info out that is not entirely true. First off MD=MBBS. There is no way around it and I don't know why people are so defensive about it. MD is an undergraduate degree. People can disagree all they want but it's the truth. Graduate medical training in the US and Canada is your residency training. Similarily MBBS is an undergraduate degree whether you are in a 4 year graduate entry program or a 6 year undergrad program. In the US once you are ECFMG certified you go by MD...not MBBS. In fact approximately 25% of the physicians in the US are not trained in the US/Canada and the vast majority are from India which confers the MBBS. So if VietMD's statement that you will not have referrals or your patient's confidence due to your MBBS is true, then almost 1/4 of the physician population in the US is essentially null and void. This is obviously not the reality.
These physicians that were contacted by VietMD who did know about MBBS seem a little sketchy to me. Have they never read a medical journal? Clearly they are not involved in any research, have zero insight into international medicine, have not attended any international conventions nor have any international collegues. In the global state of medicine today they would be in the vast minority not knowing about the MBBS. In fact many more countries award the MBBS for medical training than the MD. I belive only the US, Canada and Carribbean offer the MD to clinical physicians.
In my opinion graduating with an MBBS from a well respected school (which is also educating it's own doctors) in a country with similar standards in health to the US is definitely equal, if not better to an MD from the Carribbean. Just my opinion from what I have seen personally. With hard work and a little planning either will get you to where to you want to be.

 

[Cziffra]

It's becoming annoying when stubborn people with an intellect the size of a peanut and who know nothing utter BS on a public forum.

Hi Cziffra,.
1/ MD means a licensed physician in the U.S. It takes AT LEAST 11 years to have this title ( 4 yr undergrad + 4 yr med + 3 least residency). In fact, this doctorate degree is about PRACTICE, not about research. If you do some search about US education system, there are two types of doctoral degree: research and practice. PhD is research and others ( Doctor of Law, Doctor of Education, etc...) is practice. Thus, a MD in US means you're a licensed doctor. And you can tell which degree (MD or MBBS) takes longer time. In fact, the average yrs for a doctor in the US is 12-13 yrs.

Assuming you're not blind, open your eyes where it says "undergraduate medical program (MD)".
http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/English/Undergraduate-Medical-Program.html
It's not just limited to the University of Toronto. Check out other North American schools and you'll find the same thing. Call up the admissions officers and they will tell you the MD program is an undergraduate program. Find a book on medical history and you'll see that MBBS or MB is the original medical degree and is precursor to the funny North American MD; Banting and Bethune both got MB in Canada. You think the N. American MD is superior? Get a life dude.

MD means a licensed doctor? Another piece of trash info from VietMD. 11 years to get the title MD? What a joke. The moment you graduate your name will be followed by the title MD. Just attend any med school convocation in the US/Canada; on the list of fresh graduates I bet you will see that their names are followed by the MD title. I guess you're from Vietnam and we excuse your ignorance if that's the case. Once you graduate from a N. American med school, you're automatically called MD before you even become licensed. It's amazing how a number of members on SDN like to make a fool of themselves by disseminating fictitious information. Yes, I'm getting impatient, especially when the truth can easily be found by simply making some phone calls or even surfing the internet.

2/ If you said the HK government forbidden a MD called themselves doctorates, please give quote. Don't tell something like this w/o evidence.

Oh, I'm scared....use your bloody brain! I've provided such detailed information that there should be no ambiguity and that you should be able to confirm it on your own by 1) ringing them or 2) emailing them. Do you still need to be spoon-fed? You want me to give quotes? Why are you so lazy (or just plain stupid?)? I can't be more specific, unlike some idiots who always give generic descriptions without giving specific names of institutions, organizations and whatnot.
Anyway, for your convenience, while assuming you can read:

"The use of the abbreviation MD alone is not permitted unless the user is entitled to a degree of Doctor of Medicine which is an additional qualification (to MBBS, MBChB or equivalent) accepted by the Medical Council of Hong Kong".

http://www.mchk.org.hk/quotable_qualifications.doc (page 9)

I added in the bracket "to MBBS and MBChB". It wasn't specifically stated there but I did call up the Medical Council to confirm that and that is precisely what they mean. The phrase is specifically targetted at N. American MD just so they can't call themselves "Doctor of Medicine", a pseudo-doctoral degree for N. American medical graduates. Again, if you have doubt, give them a call or send them an email. Stop telling BS like VietMD did. If you can read Chinese, scroll to page 36 where the explanation is clearer. Basically,

1) an MD from Oxford (UK)

e.g. Dr. John Smith, MD (Oxford), followed by the Chinese translation "Doctor of Medicine (Oxford)".

2) an MD from Harvard (US)

e.g. Dr. John Smith, MD (Harvard), followed by the Chinese translation "Graduate of Harvard Medical School". i.e. you can't call yourself a "Doctor of Medicine"; you can only use the short form MD because that was the degree conferred (i.e. if a chicken uni confers a med title called "DNA", you then attach "DNA" after your name). Key difference is, again, you cannot expand the title MD and call yourself a "Doctor of Medicine".

Now, do I need to find the phone number or email address of the Medical Council for you? Give us a break.

3/The idea behind Doctor of Medicine in the US is American people would like their doctors are excellent in both skills and personal communication. You can't have this type of training for a fresh high school graduate. As you're going thru 4 yrs undergrad, you become more mature.
4/Please advise people if you know more.

This reasoning is absurd, as if the Brits don't want their doctors to be excellent in both "skills and personal communication(?)". Enough said. No amount of logic classes can help you.

VietMD said, "As you're going thru 4 yrs undergrad, you become more mature." You sure?

WHAT MATTERS IS THE FINISHED PRODUCT.

 

[Cziffra]

VietMD, you need to go back to primary school.

1) Doctors who don't know about MBBS are those that never read medical journals, never attend conferences, never travel, etc. These doctors are a joke. I suggest you go to a med library and randomly grab a medical journal (hopefully written in your own language) to read.

2) American high school curriculum is at least 2 to 3 years behind the Cambridge A-levels, NZ bursary (or NCEA), the HK A-levels, the STPM, etc. You want an average American high school graduate to start medicine right away? That would be suicidal. The HK A-level, for example, is equivalent to what's taught in 2nd year of N. American universities. How many American high school graduates would know anything about immunology and advanced biochemistry? Have a think VietMD.

3) This doctor (http://www.cpso.on.ca/Doctor_Search/summary.asp?Type=ADV&intCurrentPage=1&sNameRefNo=0049961), a family doctor with an MD from Toronto, regularly refers his GI patients to see this specialist (http://www.cpso.on.ca/Doctor_Search/summary.asp?Type=ADV&intCurrentPage=1&sNameRefNo=0131937), a GI specialist with an MBBS from Hong Kong. This is just one example. If you want to argue that this is just an isolated example, or the referrals are based on their friendship, you're hopeless.

 

[Cziffra]

Can the moderator please ban those members who consistently give out false information? We all know who they are.

We may compile a list of Q&A's and put them as sticky just to minimise the occurence of questions that are being repeatedly raised like, is MD the same as MBBS, and stuff like that.

The biggest joke is that some dudes (probably pre-meds) keep on arguing that MD and MBBS ain't equivalent while the medical community and those who are in the know claim that they are.

 

[Cziffra]

Hi Cziffra,
I swung by this forum accidentally and I am forced to say something b/c you don't seem to know well about med schools in the US.

This is absolutely hilarious. Yes, I certainly don't know everything about med schools in the US. However, it's bloody obvious you know virtually nothing about medical education in the US, or in fact anywhere. Please, when you don't know something, do us a favour and keep quiet. I'd suggest that you read more.

 

[Cziffra]

Mike said US med student study only 2 years in 4 year undergrad for bio, chem, Eng, physic because he doesn't attend a US undergrad institution.

Mike was correct. By saying the above, you're making yourself sound like an idiot. Perhaps you know more about med schools in Vietnam (assuming you're from there)?

You know if you simply have 1 yr bio, 1 yr chem, 1 yr phy, and 1 yr Eng, NO U.S. med school will take you. You used to applied to US med schools. You should know they require clinical experiences, research, and other relevant courses such as microbiology, genetics, etc..

Again, by saying the above, you're proclaiming to all the members here that you know nothing. Those are all the pre-req subjects you need. Having clinical experiences and research make you more competitive; however, med schools certainly do not REQUIRE them. You CERTAINLY don't need to have taken relevant courses such as microbiology and genetics! What a load of cr*p. American med schools are actively recruiting students from a diverse background.

By now, if you're a traditional student, you should have at least 1 B.S. degree in Chem, Bio, or Biomedical. Is it right?

This is the joke of the century. By saying the above, you don't even qualify as a pre-med.

 

[Cziffra]

Just to support JBA's post with an example.

http://info.med.yale.edu/neurosur/faculty/chiang.html

Dr Chiang received her MBBS from Western Australia and, once qualified to practise in the States, is called MD instead and is now chief of neurosurgery as well as assistant professor teaching at Yale.

If MBBS is inferior, then Yale and Johns Hopkins for example, are also inferior institutions in hiring all these MBBS holders as professors.

http://www.neuro.jhmi.edu/profiles/keswani.html
http://www.neuro.jhmi.edu/profiles/kaplan.html
http://www.neuro.jhmi.edu/profiles/mcarthur.html (Director of the Neurology Residency Program )
(This is by no means an exhaustive list.)

This topic has been argued so many times in the past that it is almost pointless to post about it again. However, VietMD is giving some info out that is not entirely true. First off MD=MBBS. There is no way around it and I don't know why people are so defensive about it. MD is an undergraduate degree. People can disagree all they want but it's the truth. Graduate medical training in the US and Canada is your residency training. Similarily MBBS is an undergraduate degree whether you are in a 4 year graduate entry program or a 6 year undergrad program. In the US once you are ECFMG certified you go by MD...not MBBS. In fact approximately 25% of the physicians in the US are not trained in the US/Canada and the vast majority are from India which confers the MBBS. So if VietMD's statement that you will not have referrals or your patient's confidence due to your MBBS is true, then almost 1/4 of the physician population in the US is essentially null and void. This is obviously not the reality.
These physicians that were contacted by VietMD who did know about MBBS seem a little sketchy to me. Have they never read a medical journal? Clearly they are not involved in any research, have zero insight into international medicine, have not attended any international conventions nor have any international collegues. In the global state of medicine today they would be in the vast minority not knowing about the MBBS. In fact many more countries award the MBBS for medical training than the MD. I belive only the US, Canada and Carribbean offer the MD to clinical physicians.
In my opinion graduating with an MBBS from a well respected school (which is also educating it's own doctors) in a country with similar standards in health to the US is definitely equal, if not better to an MD from the Carribbean. Just my opinion from what I have seen personally. With hard work and a little planning either will get you to where to you want to be.

 

[driedcaribou]

Hi Cziffra,
I swung by this forum accidentally and I am forced to say something b/c you don't seem to know well about med schools in the US.
.

Hi there USydGrad!

How's life cruising the forums and making fake user accounts to repeat your dogma?
You do realize that people for whom English is a second language often type better than they speak? I'd try a bit harder next time before disseminating your misinformation.

Your syntax wasn't even indicative that English is your second language, you did not make the errors common to people learning English.
They don't speak the way they type buddy.

jessicarabbit: The only thing I can add to everyone's advice is that if you come to Australia for medical school, please realize that they train you for their medical system... not for the Canadian and not for the US medical system. If you're willing to work hard, then you can go anywhere.. but don't expect that by coming here, it'll be straightforward.

For example, in 3rd and 4th year, Canadian and US medical schools give their students more patient responsibility than they do in Australia. If you want more clinical experience you're going to have to get out there and look for it.

 

[VietMD]

Criffra,
Please see this link below about University of Michigan Medical School. You'l see whether MD is graduate or undergrad. That fact says all. Assuming you're not blind, open your eyes where it says "graduate admission".

http://www.umich.edu/admis_grad.html

It's becoming annoying when stubborn people with an intellect the size of a peanut and who know nothing utter BS on a public forum.

Assuming you're not blind, open your eyes where it says "undergraduate medical program (MD)".
http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/English/Undergraduate-Medical-Program.html
It's not just limited to the University of Toronto. Check out other North American schools and you'll find the same thing. .

 

[VietMD]

to Criffra,
One more example about MD is Graduate School from Harvard. This fact can tell whether or not you know the US education system. In fact, all MD program in the US is graduate, NOT undergraduate.

http://www.harvard.edu/admissions/#grad

 

[f_w]

> 4/Now, Let assume that you have residency in the U.S. and
> become a licensed physician. You know what your income
> depends on patients. How do you get patients? From patients
> and from doctors. With a MBBS degree, who know about
> that degree?

Anyone who did a residency in the US has encountered colleagues with a MBBS instead of an MD. Even at the moderately competitive places, there will be internists with an MBBS reflecting their medical education in india or other former components of the british empire. Anyway, hospitals will frequently just substitute the MBBS with MD on your paperwork, believe me, it is a non-issue.

> The patient will think the same way. How can they trust you if you're
> holding a Bachelor degree?

The patient thinks: 'This doctor is friendly and has a good bedside manner. My friends who go to him recommend him.' The title on the shingle, MD, MBBS or DO has no influence on how your patients perceive you (they will be glad to go to a nurse practicioner if that is the person they trust).

> 5/In the end, you are the ONLY one who pays money, not
> everyone here, not any Aus med schools, not anyone gave
> you advice. If you can't get in US residency, who cares?
> They had your money, that's it.

(I read this paragraph and re-read it again. I am still not sure what message you are trying to convey here. It might be because english is my second language as well but still, I am puzzled.)
But I agree: Who cares, and in particular, why do YOU care ?

 

[banana k]

"graduate" medical program e.g. University of Michigan refers to a program which requires you to have a bachelor's degree in order to enter. all the 4-year graduate-entry medical schools in Aus title their program "graduate entry medical program". the US schools, like the Australian schools, require that you have a BS or BA or BSc or whatever, then enroll you and RECLASSIFY you as "undergrad". it isn't a graduate degree that's awarded in any country. i don't know where you get that idea, but that's made clear in US programs as well as Oz programs.

as for 6 year undergrad programs... they have those in the states in a couple of places. or maybe they're 7 years now. but at least when i was graduating from high school, they existed, and they still granted what in America would be an "MD" and is essentially a Bachelor of Medicine degree. if you want a doctorat in medicine in the states, you have to do, what is it, D Med Sci or some such as well? meaning you have a substantial research contribution IN ADDITION to graduate entry training. in Oz, it's the same for an MD. same thing, different letters. ERGO, if you meet someone from Oz who has an MD conferred by an australian university, you can assume that they are *much* higher in the toad-hole than an American MD. all american, australian, and canadian physicians and medical scientists i have met corroborate this. sorry to burst your bubble.

moderators, that was so cool when you figured out that the usydgrad and gmc trolls were the same person... was that super-complicated and prohibitively annoying, or can that be like, automatically applied to trolls in here... i notice this one has even dropped the semblance of a foreign accent...

and finally, i for one would be kind of interested to hear vietmd's/usyd's/ usmedstudent's/gmc's story as to why he or she is so bitter. honestly. and without spin on it EITHER way. tell us what your nationality is, which school you went to, how long you went there, did you graduate, what are you doing now, why are you so mad, et cetera. truly, we're never going to know who you are, and if you've genuinely been screwed, i'd like to know the details other than just "all schools suck in oz" so that i can make my own decisions before accepting anyone's opinion either way. i'm willing to hear you out.

 

[f_w]

and finally, i for one would be kind of interested to hear vietmd's/usyd's/ usmedstudent's/gmc's story as to why he or she is so bitter. honestly. and without spin on it EITHER way. tell us what your nationality is, which school you went to, how long you went there, did you graduate, what are you doing now, why are you so mad, et cetera. truly, we're never going to know who you are, and if you've genuinely been screwed, i'd like to know the details other than just "all schools suck in oz"


I think a couple of posters here know the identity of this individual. I would love the hear the story as to how he got booted out.

 

[Cziffra]

Thanks for displaying your ignorance once again. You love the Michigan Medical School huh?

http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/students/gradprog.html
Using the very website you provided:
For medicine, only the Medical Scientist Training Program (MD/PhD) is classified as a Graduate Program. Why? Because of the PhD. This isn't rocket science, is this?

http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/gme/index.html
Graduate Medical Education refers to residency training.

In short, the North American MD = Graduate-entry, undergraduate medical degree.
On the very website you provided, only the combined program MD/PhD is classified under "Graduate Studies", not the MD by itself.


Please borrow some ESL books and improve your English first.

Do you have anything of value to add?

At least you have learnt to provide internet links to substantiate your claim; unfortunately, the links further prove that you're wrong and further consolidate your ignorance.

I've just emailed the Director of Admissions at the University of Michigan Medical School asking the stupid question, "is the MD program an undergraduate medical program?", while knowing the answer that it is. I'll post the reply here, word for word, when I receive it. Until then, you'll be speechless.

Maybe it's time again for you to sign up for a new account here and continue writing your b*llsh*t under a new username.

Criffra,
Please see this link below about University of Michigan Medical School. You'l see whether MD is graduate or undergrad. That fact says all. Assuming you're not blind, open your eyes where it says "graduate admission".

http://www.umich.edu/admis_grad.html

 

[Cziffra]

VietMD, thanks for entertaining us

I see the word "Graduate" ("Graduate entry") on the University of Melbourne website for its MBBS program:
http://www.medicine.unimelb.edu.au/future/gradselect.html
Since when has the MBBS become something more than a bachelor's degree?

Seriously, you have a long way to go before you even qualify as a pre-med.

The Oxford Dictionary could be your best buddy on your road to mastering the English language.

 

[driedcaribou]

to Criffra,
One more example about MD is Graduate School from Harvard. This fact can tell whether or not you know the US education system. In fact, all MD program in the US is graduate, NOT undergraduate.

http://www.harvard.edu/admissions/#grad

Like the other posters have said before.. it is Graduate admission not a Graduate program.
They treat the MD like a professional degree not a Master's or a PhD.

If they did treat it like a Ph.D why would they offer a MD/Ph.D program?
http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/combined.html

'MD/Ph.D. (MEDICAL SCIENTIST TRAINING PROGRAM)
The Medical Scientist Training Program (MSTP) is a joint effort of the University of Michigan graduate and medical schools to provide a superb and balanced training in science and medicine. The MSTP, which is open to citizens or permanent residents of the United States, attracts excellent students who are committed to a career in biomedical research.

The MSTP curriculum generally requires seven to eight full calendar years. Typically, MSTP fellows begin with the twenty month Pre-Clinical Phase in the curriculum for the M.D. degree, additional graduate coursework in biological chemistry or other areas, and laboratory rotations in the summers.All fellows must pass the USMLE Step 1 (medical licensure) exam before becoming full-time graduate students. In the Graduate Phase, they complete the requirements for Ph.D. candidacy including preliminary examinations, thesis research, and a written dissertation. After defense of the dissertation, fellows return to the MD curriculum to take the Clinical Phase of their education, including all required clerkships, a subinternship, electives and the USMLE Step 2 examination. In recognition of the interdependency of the degrees, the MD and Ph.D. degrees are conferred by the University only after completion of both.

'


http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/medicine/admissions/applying.html
If you are contemplating applying for admission to the undergraduate medical education program, please refer to the following documents



So USydGrad/Spherical/VietMD/etc.... if you spent less time on the forums and more time working, don't you think you'd be happier and more successful in life?
Or could you not handle growing up? I'm surprised a country like Australia could break a man. I can understand if you had to go to Medical School in Antarctica and you had to eat penguin feces to survive but in such a lovely country you've really had to try to become so bitter.

 

[VietMD]

Hi all,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. This is my last post here. Please check think information from CDC website about fellowship (an U.S. official website)

http://www.aphl.org/training_and_fellowships/fellowships/index.cfm?FellowshipID=2#Awards

It clearly said that" Two-year fellowship program designed for doctoral level (PhD, MD, or DVM) scientists. The program emphasizes on research or professional development in infectious diseases."

This confirmed MD la doctoral level degree in the US (Remember this is an official website lab for CDC). The Harvard website and Michigan are very clear about their programs. The truth is always the truth, even sometimes it is NOT pleasant.
Let ask yourself:

1/ What type of degree you have from an undergrad program?
2/ What type of degree you have from a graduate program?

The ways that people acted in this thread are like high school students. I'm VietMD, and NOT anyone else. Please stop guessing. Attacking my language skills or said other bad things are NOT a professional manner. If you're right, please give enough supports and facts.

For those curios about me, I'm a graduate from the University of Michigan and I'm applying to MD/DO schools right now. My email is [email protected]

 

[Off2Oz]

Hi all,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. This is my last post here. Please check think information from CDC website about fellowship (an U.S. official website)

http://www.aphl.org/training_and_fellowships/fellowships/index.cfm?FellowshipID=2#Awards

It clearly said that" Two-year fellowship program designed for doctoral level (PhD, MD, or DVM) scientists. The program emphasizes on research or professional development in infectious diseases."

This confirmed MD la doctoral level degree in the US (Remember this is an official website lab for CDC). The Harvard website and Michigan are very clear about their programs. The truth is always the truth, even sometimes it is NOT pleasant.
Let ask yourself:

1/ What type of degree you have from an undergrad program?
2/ What type of degree you have from a graduate program?

The ways that people acted in this thread are like high school students. I'm VietMD, and NOT anyone else. Please stop guessing. Attacking my language skills or said other bad things are NOT a professional manner. If you're right, please give enough supports and facts.

For those curios about me, I'm a graduate from the University of Michigan and I'm applying to MD/DO schools right now. My email is [email protected]

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Doctor_of_Medicine

There are many more like this. "Doctoral" does not imply "Graduate." It is also misleading wording - whomever wrote it didn't consider this implication.

Cheers,
M.

 

[Cziffra]

This is my last post here.

Of course this is your last post, I mean, what else OF VALUE can you add? I'd be surprised if you can come up with anything to add.

This confirmed MD la doctoral level degree in the US (Remember this is an official website lab for CDC). The Harvard website and Michigan are very clear about their programs.

I got a reply back from the Director of Admissions at the University of Michigan Medical School. Don't cry when you read his reply, and I apologise for hurting your feelings and shattering your illusion . Sorry to tell you the sad fact that the pseudo-doctoral American MD (Michigan MD) that you so adore is in fact NOT a doctoral degree.

My email to the Director of Admissions:

>>> (undisclosed) 10/02/05 11:50 PM >>>
Dear Admissions Director,

I'm a prospective applicant for the MD program at the University of
Michigan. I'd like to know if it is an undergraduate program or a
graduate program, since it's a "Doctor" of Medicine program. Is the MD
degree a doctoral degree or a post-baccalaureate undergraduate degree?

Regards,
(Undisclosed)

Reply from the Director of Admissions at Michigan Medical School:

Our medical center has both undergraduate medical studies (MD) and graduate medical education (residency training).

Robert F. Ruiz
Director of Admissions
University of Michigan Medical School
D4303 Medical Science Bldg. 1
1301 Catherine Street
Ann Arbor, MI 48109
(734)764-6317/Office
(734)763-0453/Fax
[email protected]

His reply was a bit odd as he didn't directly address my question. However, his reply says it all. MD = undergraduate medical studies



So you're a graduate of Michigan? I'm shocked that the University of Michigan would accept students of such low caliber into ANY of its programs. Given your English, were you an int'l student and if so, how did you pass the TOEFL? Unbelievable....

In case you get an interview offer from a MD/DO school, you'll need to do a lot of research. It'd be interesting if you tell the interviewers that you'd like to be accepted into their "doctoral" MD program!

Hi all,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. This is my last post here. Please check think information from CDC website about fellowship (an U.S. official website)

http://www.aphl.org/training_and_fellowships/fellowships/index.cfm?FellowshipID=2#Awards

It clearly said that" Two-year fellowship program designed for doctoral level (PhD, MD, or DVM) scientists. The program emphasizes on research or professional development in infectious diseases."

This confirmed MD la doctoral level degree in the US (Remember this is an official website lab for CDC). The Harvard website and Michigan are very clear about their programs. The truth is always the truth, even sometimes it is NOT pleasant.
Let ask yourself:

1/ What type of degree you have from an undergrad program?
2/ What type of degree you have from a graduate program?

The ways that people acted in this thread are like high school students. I'm VietMD, and NOT anyone else. Please stop guessing. Attacking my language skills or said other bad things are NOT a professional manner. If you're right, please give enough supports and facts.

For those curios about me, I'm a graduate from the University of Michigan and I'm applying to MD/DO schools right now. My email is [email protected]

 

[Cziffra]

Anyone still wants to insist that the American MD degree is a doctoral degree?

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

clearly VietMD is a ***** and any and all posts by him dismissed.

 

[driedcaribou]

il to the Director of Admissions:
>>> (undisclosed) 10/02/05 11:50 PM >>>
Dear Admissions Director,
I'm a prospective applicant for the MD program at the University of
Michigan. I'd like to know if it is an undergraduate program or a
graduate program, since it's a "Doctor" of Medicine program. Is the MD
degree a doctoral degree or a post-baccalaureate undergraduate degree?

Regards,
(Undisclosed)

Reply from the Director of Admissions at Michigan Medical School:

Our medical center has both undergraduate medical studies (MD) and graduate medical education (residency training).

Robert F. Ruiz

That's some pretty definitive proof right there.

Regardless of who you are VietMD, you have a poor attitude from the get go and if you think people are making fun of you because of your language skills, it's actually because of your arrogance.

VietMD wrote:
Hi Cziffra,
I swung by this forum accidentally and I am forced to say something b/c you don't seem to know well about med schools in the US.

You already start off by claiming he doesn't know 'well about med schools in the US'.

Viet MD wrote:
1/ MD means a licensed physician in the U.S. It takes AT LEAST 11 years to have this title ( 4 yr undergrad + 4 yr med + 3 least residency). In fact, this doctorate degree is about PRACTICE, not about research. If you do some search about US education system, there are two types of doctoral degree: research and practice. PhD is research and others ( Doctor of Law, Doctor of Education, etc...) is practice. Thus, a MD in US means you're a licensed doctor. And you can tell which degree (MD or MBBS) takes longer time. In fact, the average yrs for a doctor in the US is 12-13 yrs.

First of all, it's a professional degree designation indicating education level not practice. You're not a practicing as a student- involved in a medical team but not a practicing independant doctor.

Secondly, you mention which degree takes a longer time without giving any indication on how long a doctor takes to be trained with a MBBS degree. You have no information about the MBBS degree yet you infer that the US degree is longer.

In Australia, the MBBS undergraduate entry degree is 6 years. Their graduate entry degree is 4-5 years long. Then they have 1 year internship and 2 resident medical officer years before they even begin their specialty training.
In the end it can even take longer for you to finish your specialty training in Australia.

Inferring length equating to quality of training is a baseless argument as well.
For someone who does an Undergraduate degree in science in the US... 3/4 of the knowledge gained in that degree would be useless in the clinical practice of medicine anyways.
And for a liberal arts degree, pretty much your entire degree is not directly applicable to the practice of medicine other than your pre-requisites.
(I can see how sociology etc. could contribute to your compassion of the patient, accounting to your practice etc. but you get my point)

With regards to what VietMD said later:

'http://www.aphl.org/training_and_fe...shipID=2#Awards

It clearly said that" Two-year fellowship program designed for doctoral level (PhD, MD, or DVM) scientists. The program emphasizes on research or professional development in infectious diseases."

Because most programs if not all MD programs in the US are graduate entry, they are 'doctoral' level which means implies the length of time you take to get your degree. But this does not mean you have a doctorate.
A medical degree is considered prestigious anywhere you go and it opens a lot more doors than a Ph.D potentially could. Regardless, if a MD was equivalent to a Ph.D, why would anybody take a M.D./Ph.D program?

You are conferred the M.D. degree because it's a designation of a professional agree as a way for you to have more status. I'm not being silly here.

http://main.uab.edu/uasom/2/show.asp?durki=4798

'Undergraduate Medical Education
School of Medicine Policies
Undergraduate medical education encompasses the preclinical coursework and clinical experience leading to the M.D. (Doctor of Medicine) degree.
M.D. Program
The M.D. program prepares students to practice and teach medicine primarily in clinical settings.'
Oh dear, I guess the University of Alabama only has undergraduate M.D. degrees!
How will their graduates ever become doctors in the US?

Check the University of Illinois at Chicago:
http://www.uic.edu/depts/mcam/pdf/uic_com2002_4.pdf

If you go to page 88
'Surgery
Department Head: Herand Abcarian, MD
The major subjects in the undergraduate teaching of surgery are surgical diagnosis,
preoperative and postoperative care, and the principles of operative technique..'

Good God! New York Medical College has teaching in undergraduate surgery!!!
But how can it be when M.D.s in the US are all doctorates????

Because they're not.
page 129
'Courses in the third and fourth years are:
In the third year (M-3), the emphasis is on the clinical practice of medicine and
the delivery of health care. The student moves through clinical disciplines with
rotations in pediatrics, obstetrics/gynecology, psychiatry, and surgery (eight
weeks each); medicine (twelve weeks); and family medicine (four weeks).
Student clerks learn from faculty and residents and are encouraged to assume
responsibility commensurate with their developing expertise. Lectures and
conferences form part of each clerkship. Students are evaluated on attitudes,
knowledge, judgment, and skills. Descriptions of the clerkships are included in
the subsequent section of this chapter titled Departments.
The fourth year (M-4) is a combination of required courses intended to
provide a common core of material necessary to complete undergraduate
medical education and electives designed to further knowledge and provide an
opportunity to work in new fields of interest. A minimum of 36 weeks of
instruction is required. Of that, four weeks each of neurology, diagnostic
radiology, and either a family medicine, medicine, or pediatrics subinternship'

 

[driedcaribou]

And if you're really bored, you can sift through this wordy link:



http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/trp7update.asp

"Background:

The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) is considering revising the way it collects data on enrollment and degrees for students in first-professional fields. For more than 30 years, there has been little change in the way NCES, through its Higher Education General Information Survey (HEGIS) and the Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System (IPEDS), has identified "first-professional" students. Currently the first-professional fields include: Chiropractic (D.C. or D.C.M.) Dentistry (D.D.S. or D.M.D.) Law (L.L.B. or J.D.) Medicine (M.D.) Optometry (O.D.) Osteopathic Medicine (D.O) Pharmacy (Pharm.D.) Podiatry (D.P.M., Pod.D., D.P.) Theology (M.Div., M.H.L., B.D., or Ordination Veterinary Medicine (D.V.M.),

For the most part, these are postbaccalaureate programs that prepare students for licensure to practice in their particular field. Over time considerable change has ocurred in the length of the program and degree level attained, as well as the educational pre-requisites of these and other professional programs. As a result, there is a need to reconsider the rationale for the designation of this group of programs as "first-professional." Moreover, numerous additional programs could/should be considered for inclusion, because they are similarly designed to prepare graduates for professional or clinical practice rather than traditional academic research careers.

Following meetings with various accrediting agencies, associations, institutional representatives, and individuals, the NCES/IPEDS Senior Fellow developed a set of possible options for consideration.

Option #1: Expand the first-professional classification in IPEDS by adding select professional practice doctoral programs (from CIP 51) - include others that meet the definitional criteria and eliminate the master's-level programs [primarily those in the ministerial/theological fields (CIP 39)].

This option would expand the current list of first-professional doctoral programs to include select programs - particularly those in the health professions that provide the prerequisites for licensure and include at least three full-time-equivalent years of post-baccalaureate study and a total of six years of postsecondary study. The category could be renamed "Professional Practice Doctor's Degrees" or NCES could maintain the "first-professional" terminology.
Because the ministerial/theological programs that are currently termed "first-professional" are not at the doctoral level and do not necessarily prepare students for a formal public license, these programs would be moved from the first-professional category and reported as master's degrees, similar to master's degrees in other professions.
Option #2: Eliminate the first-professional category and require institutions to report their enrollments and degrees based on level only.

Enrollment in first-professional programs would simply be reported at the appropriate graduate or undergraduate level. Degree data would be reported with data at the appropriate level/award title categories. For example, M.D. degrees would be reported as "doctor's degrees;" M.Div. degrees would be reported as "master's degrees."

Option #3: Report Ph.D. Research Doctor's Degrees separately from the Professional Practice Doctor's Degrees and report all M.A. and M.S. master's degrees as Academic Master's separately from all other master's degree titles as Professional Master's Degrees....

This option would distinguish the traditional Ph.D., M.A., and M.S. graduate academic degrees from the numerous doctor's and master's degree titles that have emerged in recent years that are primarily credentials for entry or advancement in professional practice careers.

 

[jessicarabbit]

I just wanted to say thank you to everybody who took the time out to respond to my post. I really appreciate MOST of the advice!!!! I've made my decision and I'm off to UQ in January. I'm actually going into Y3 there so I'm studying for the USMLE now. It's all good. Everybody has a different story...mine started in Poland! I'm very excited about Australia and I can't wait to meet all of you UQ students.
Take care and thanks again.