Career/Life Satisfaction Survey Amongst Different Careers

[Manevi]

Assalam,

May I ask if anyone here is aware of any life and career satisfaction surveys that compare people in different careers, including in psychology and social work? Since I've posted my last thread about financial side of a career in psychology, I've looked at other threads in the forum and apparently many people are quite unsatisfied with becoming psychologists. I don't think the members in this forum are a representative sample of all psychologist but I do find it alarming nonetheless. How could we help others live happier and more fulfilling lives if our own lives are anything but? And I'm not only talking about the financial side, like in my last thread. I mean overall. Is it really just too much paperwork and bureaucracy, insurance company hassles, dealing with unpleasant people, low pay, etc? So got me thinking maybe I should look at some surveys to see if psychologists are satisfied with their choice of careers. And how do they compare with psychiatrists or engineers or dishwashers or whatever. I would appreciate your help very much.

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[valentinoRossi]

wasalams,

ahhhh i'm very glad you made this thread.
I made a similar thread a few months ago about how I don't understand why people on these forums are so negative. I actually got in a argument with another forum member because I said they were being way too cynical and it doesn't make sense to me that a person who wants to make others feel better is living such a miserable existence themselves. I told them that even if they weren't a psychologist, they would find something to complain about.

When I first started getting interested in psychology I browsed these forums, and was instantly turned off. I love the material, the books, and the research...but the people on the forums just seemed so bitter that I thought if they weren't happy then how could I ever be happy being a psychologist?

Well, i realized that some people just like to be negative. Some people FIND ways to be negative to let off steam.

I love studying psychology. I loved being a research assistant. I love just reading books about psych. I love talking people about it, and i love getting clinical experience. People complain about the pay, even though it's twice the amount of the national average of family income. It's such a cool field...i mean, i'm going to be payed to talk to people, to listen to them, and help them solve their problems so they can live a more fulfilling life...i'm getting paid to be a best friend. That is such a rewarding career honestly, to make a REAL difference in someone's life. I am a muslim, and an american, and it's part of my identity to help people and be caring for others.

I used to read these forums and though that it was doom and gloom...then i started talking to psychologists who actually work and make a living..they all love what they do, they are happy. They have a career that has meaning and that gives them joy. I'm working with a psychologist who owns her own clinic, and she said that never wakes up and doesn't want to go to work. I mean, you gotta make it fun. It's a fun profession when you think about it. I mean we talk to people about their most intimate issues and problems...who else does that?
I'm going to get a lot of crap for this, but i think people come on these forums to release stress. Why would a happy psychologist be wasting time on the internet after work? They are all chilling with their families and enjoying life.

So basically man, i'm with you. If you really want to make it as a psychologist and life a happy life, you can. These forums are educational no doubt, but it's not a place to find inspiration.
Also...people here on these forums are usually fairly young (20-35). They are in school for a really long time, and their friends are already working and making good money. SO naturally they become a little bitter because while they are stuck in grad school/internship/college, their peers are living the "ideal life" already.
That being said, I have to say that being a westerner myself I know that we don't really understand the concept of being healthy before helping others get healthy. I mean, doctors and med students are usually fat and out of shape. Yet they are prescribing medications to make their patient's bodies healthier. It's ironic. Also, after you start seeing patients for a long time sometimes its easy to get jaded and a bit burnt out. But then again, these are just my opinions.

I also think that people who changed into psychology when they were a bit older tend to appreciate it more and have more passion for it. Some people on these forums were psychology majors when they were 18, and this is all they know...they never had that "i found my true calling" moment, they just went with the flow. I think being a psychologist is a "calling", and it takes time to realize that. If it is your "calling", i doubt you will ever find much to be upset about because the satisfaction of being happy outweighs anything else.

 

[Azure1]

wasalams,

ahhhh i'm very glad you made this thread.
I made a similar thread a few months ago about how I don't understand why people on these forums are so negative. I actually got in a argument with another forum member because I said they were being way too cynical and it doesn't make sense to me that a person who wants to make others feel better is living such a miserable existence themselves. I told them that even if they weren't a psychologist, they would find something to complain about.

When I first started getting interested in psychology I browsed these forums, and was instantly turned off. I love the material, the books, and the research...but the people on the forums just seemed so bitter that I thought if they weren't happy then how could I ever be happy being a psychologist?

Well, i realized that some people just like to be negative. Some people FIND ways to be negative to let off steam.

I love studying psychology. I loved being a research assistant. I love just reading books about psych. I love talking people about it, and i love getting clinical experience. People complain about the pay, even though it's twice the amount of the national average of family income. It's such a cool field...i mean, i'm going to be payed to talk to people, to listen to them, and help them solve their problems so they can live a more fulfilling life...i'm getting paid to be a best friend. That is such a rewarding career honestly, to make a REAL difference in someone's life. I am a muslim, and an american, and it's part of my identity to help people and be caring for others.

I used to read these forums and though that it was doom and gloom...then i started talking to psychologists who actually work and make a living..they all love what they do, they are happy. They have a career that has meaning and that gives them joy. I'm working with a psychologist who owns her own clinic, and she said that never wakes up and doesn't want to go to work. I mean, you gotta make it fun. It's a fun profession when you think about it. I mean we talk to people about their most intimate issues and problems...who else does that?
I'm going to get a lot of crap for this, but i think people come on these forums to release stress. Why would a happy psychologist be wasting time on the internet after work? They are all chilling with their families and enjoying life.

So basically man, i'm with you. If you really want to make it as a psychologist and life a happy life, you can. These forums are educational no doubt, but it's not a place to find inspiration.
Also...people here on these forums are usually fairly young (20-35). They are in school for a really long time, and their friends are already working and making good money. SO naturally they become a little bitter because while they are stuck in grad school/internship/college, their peers are living the "ideal life" already.
That being said, I have to say that being a westerner myself I know that we don't really understand the concept of being healthy before helping others get healthy. I mean, doctors and med students are usually fat and out of shape. Yet they are prescribing medications to make their patient's bodies healthier. It's ironic. Also, after you start seeing patients for a long time sometimes its easy to get jaded and a bit burnt out. But then again, these are just my opinions

I agree that a lot of people here are quite "pessimistic" but I choose to view it as being brutally realistic and honest.

I am going to graduate soon yet I haven't yet chosen whether I want to pursue psychology or other completely different fields. I personally am very idealistic and I'm sure that many students who are in the same predicament as I am are too. When I ask my classmates what they want to do, everyone wants to do clinical psychology, yet little of them even realize what they're getting into. They have a very glazed over look and glossy optimism when it comes to how they will get in or if they know what it is all about.

There will always be downsides to every profession whether it be law, medicine or psychology etc, and you will find people who regret their decision and people who cannot stop working because they love it so much. I think no matter what you do if you are pursuing higher studies whatever they may be once you've put in a lot of effort and time into it, it is hard for someone to say they absolutely hate it and for most people it is very difficult to just start over.. so they make excuses to believe that they like it. I'm not saying that this is the case for everyone, but I can't help but imagine that a lot of people have this sort of regret no matter what they choose. I have so many interests that I know for a fact whatever I do I will regret not doing the other profession, but that's just me.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I'm sure such a survey exists. However, whether most psychologists are happy is not nearly as relevant as whether you can be happy with the quality of life as a psychologist. Things that are not important to others might be extremely important to you. Don't get tied up in other people's feelings or judgments, pay attention to the facts and what they mean for you.

For example, from reading the posts here, it seems that many people here feel that they can have a happy and comfortable life making $60,000 per year. There's nothing wrong with that. However, if you personally don't feel like that's enough money, there is nothing wrong with that either, but that is something to consider.

Different people want different things from their employment. Some people (probably most of us here) want careers that are very tied into their identity and who they are. Other people want something that they can do 8 hours a day that will lead to a comfortable life outside of work. I have clients who hate their jobs, but would consider themselves to have generally happy lives because they can spend time with their families and afford what they want. Which characteristics are most important to you?

If you are considering other related fields, like psychiatry, you should visit those SDN boards too. Every field has ups and downs and you should research them as much as possible before jumping in.

Best,
Dr. E

 

[Iwillheal]

According to NORC's General Social Surveys, and data from 2006 and earlier, psychologists are eighth in terms of job satisfaction. Right behind authors. Apparently job satisfaction is correlated with helping others or expressing one's own creativity. Other careers in top ten, ahead of psychology, are the likes of clergy and firefighters. I have no idea why firefighters would be satisfied with their careers. It's such a dangerous and thankless job. And it's very hard (that's what she said). Of course, social work wasn't up there so I assume getting paid in peanuts reduces job happiness. I visited NORC's website but cant' figure out how to compare psychologist and psychiatrist happiness but I think that could be very useful. To the OP, if you really want to help people, go for it. If you want to make money and don't give a **** about people, well, ask Paul Ryan for career advice.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Other careers in top ten, ahead of psychology, are the likes of clergy and firefighters. I have no idea why firefighters would be satisfied with their careers. It's such a dangerous and thankless job.

If firefighting is a thankless job, I am quite positive psychology would also qualify. I mean, you never see psychologists hailed as heroes on the 4 o'clock news.

And it's very hard (that's what she said).

I'm pretty sure she would say that it's difficult. Seriously, how old are you that you are making such juvenile jokes?!

Of course, social work wasn't up there so I assume getting paid in peanuts reduces job happiness.

You can't assume that. Social work and psychology are different professions. Plenty of research has shown that higher pay does not equal happiness, in general.

 

[valentinoRossi]

Other careers in top ten, ahead of psychology, are the likes of clergy and firefighters. I have no idea why firefighters would be satisfied with their careers. It's such a dangerous and thankless job. .

firefighters are incredibly respected. Its a highly noble profession, even if its not paid well. Superheroes aren't supposed to get paid well, it defeats the purpose of being a hero

 

[Doctor Eliza]

RE: helping people. This is absolutely a positive aspect of a career as a psychologist. However, it isn't as simple as it sounds. The work doesn't leave you feeling warm and fuzzy 24/7.

For example, if you truly care about people, it can be very hard to hear their stories of suffering day in and day out. Just recently, a colleague can into my office after a session with her client, closed the door and sobbed. After exploring the patient's abuse history, she said that she couldn't understand how there can be people out there who can be so cruel, even to children. This is not to mention people who suffer from severe and chronic physical and/or mental illnesses. There is a level of suffering that no amount of therapy can relieve. (Of course, maybe you can decrease their suffering, but that can be a far cry from completely healing it.). Human pain can take a toll on your soul.

Another issue is just what percent of your caseload you can help. You can't help people who don't want to come in regularly, who don't want to put in effort or don't really want to change. Honestly, I was surprised how much of my caseload that turned out to be. I work in a PP with very high functioning clients. Therefore, many will attend a session or two, decide they are well enough and drop out. They want to address the current crisis but not the underlying dynamics that created it. It can be frustrating because you can see down the road that this will come up again and again for them.

Last but not least, one aspect of the practice of psychology that is hard for me (and I imagine others too) is when I cannot give treatment to people who need it. When I have to stop seeing people because they can't or won't pay their bills. When I have to cut treatment short because the insurance company says so. Or when I was at a community mental health and resources were scarce and I could only see clients who desperately needed treatment every 3-4 weeks!

It is wonderful to help people. It is a great part of my day to day work. You absolutely have to care about people to follow this career path. But BTW, I'm pretty sure admissions committees gag when they read this on applications.

Best,
Dr. E

 

[Pragma]

I love studying psychology. I loved being a research assistant. I love just reading books about psych. I love talking people about it, and i love getting clinical experience. People complain about the pay, even though it's twice the amount of the national average of family income. It's such a cool field...i mean, i'm going to be payed to talk to people, to listen to them, and help them solve their problems so they can live a more fulfilling life...i'm getting paid to be a best friend. That is such a rewarding career honestly, to make a REAL difference in someone's life. I am a muslim, and an american, and it's part of my identity to help people and be caring for others.

Hopefully as you continue to read and learn about psychology, you'll realize that you are NOT being paid to be a best friend.

Depending on what area of psychology you choose the pursue, the pay is going to vary a bit. I felt quite dejected during my own job search when I was finishing my postdoc. For me, putting in 7 years of schooling did come with some reasonable salary expectations (I figured I should start at 60-70K). There just weren't a lot of jobs offering that range in my locale.

Now, ultimately I did find the job I wanted and my quality of life is great. I love my work and have good job stability. The problem is that for every person like me, who gets a great position, there are probably several other qualified folks who have to "assemble" a career and do things that they don't want to do. It can be unsettling and I can understand some dissatisfaction with that scenario.

Regarding the OPs question, I too would be interested in seeing such a survey. Of course, psychologists probably designed that survey

 

[Iwillheal]

If firefighting is a thankless job, I am quite positive psychology would also qualify. I mean, you never see psychologists hailed as heroes on the 4 o'clock news.

Comparing the two is quite insulting to firefighters. We're talking about people who put their lives on the line every single day, be it fighting forest fires in heat of summer or rescuing people during 9/11 collapse of the WTC buildings. This is not comparable to "positive psychology" and whatever complains you have about that.

Seriously, how old are you that you are making such juvenile jokes?!

That's from the enormously popular and funny show, "The Office." Check it out. You'd think someone with a Chaplin avatar would have a sense of humor. Come to think of it, perhaps you're a bigger fan of physical humor, the kind that requires less abstract thinking. Wink...wink.

You can't assume that. Social work and psychology are different professions. Plenty of research has shown that higher pay does not equal happiness, in general.

You may be right. I did google this and according to

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/social-worker

despite a median 40k salary, it is one of the best jobs in the US for 2012 and satisfaction is also "high." Took me by surprise. I had read studies on high burnout out rate in social work and what I consider the measly pay but who knows....So although it did not make the top ten in the other survey, it certainly seems to have fairly high job satisfaction.

This is a logical fallacy on my part, I assume. Since I did not see social work in the first survey - but did see "psychologist" - I made some assumptions about why it was not up there.

 

[Pragma]

That's from the enormously popular and funny show, "The Office." Check it out. You'd think someone with a Chaplin avatar would have a sense of humor. Come to think of it, perhaps you're a bigger fan of physical humor, the kind that requires less abstract thinking. Wink...wink.

Really dude? I mean, I got your Office reference and thought she was being a little touchy, but this only confirms what she was criticizing you about...

 

[Iwillheal]

Really dude? I mean, I got your Office reference and thought she was being a little touchy, but this only confirms what she was criticizing you about...

No it doesn't. I wasn't speaking to her or about her but she made it a business of hers to come here and reply to me and say my sense of humor was juvenile and so I just gave her a taste of her own medicine. But it was chivalrous of you to come to her rescue if you get what I'm saying.

 

[Pragma]

No it doesn't. I wasn't speaking to her or about her but she made it a business of hers to come here and reply to me and say my sense of humor was juvenile and so I just gave her a taste of her own medicine. But it was chivalrous of you to come to her rescue if you get what I'm saying.

Oy...

I usually appreciate your posts iwillheal, but not this one.

 

[Iwillheal]

I'm sorry, I'm having a rough day, reading a little too much into things today and taking things a little too seriously.

p.s. "Oy," that made me lol, reminds me of my previous neighbor, an old lady who was Jewish. Are you Jewish?

 

[LivingOffLoans]

wasalams,
I'm going to get a lot of crap for this, but i think people come on these forums to release stress.

It is refreshing to read your post, because I share similar feelings with you regarding the forum, as well as your enthusiasm for the field.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Comparing the two is quite insulting to firefighters. We're talking about people who put their lives on the line every single day, be it fighting forest fires in heat of summer or rescuing people during 9/11 collapse of the WTC buildings. This is not comparable to "positive psychology" and whatever complains you have about that.

I don't know how you got this from my reply. I was comparing the thanklessness of psychology versus firefighting. You said firefighting was thankless (implying that psychology was not thankless), and I disagreed saying that firefighters are well respected and commonly hailed as heroes in the media. Many mental health professionals conduct thankless work--not all, but many--but are rarely spotted on the news for saving lives. Please note: This is actually me commending firefighters, in case you misread my intent on this reply as well as the first one.

 

[wigflip]

No it doesn't. I wasn't speaking to her or about her but she made it a business of hers to come here and reply to me and say my sense of humor was juvenile and so I just gave her a taste of her own medicine. But it was chivalrous of you to come to her rescue if you get what I'm saying.

"That's what she said" has been done to death, regardless of where it came from, and yes, it's juvenile, sexist, and offensive to many women. Feel free to steamroll over that if you like.

 

[valentinoRossi]

"That's what she said" has been done to death, regardless of where it came from, and yes, it's juvenile, sexist, and offensive to many women. Feel free to steamroll over that if you like.

women are offended by everything these days....

 

[wigflip]

women are offended by everything these days....

I was just telling someone that it wouldn't be long before I would be buried under accusations of a) being too touchy, or b) having no sense of humor. Actually, took longer than I thought it would.

Maybe if you're finding that "women are offended by everything these days" you should consider that valuable feedback? Unless you are planning to somehow restrict your future practice to men only, you're going to have to deal with the other half of the population.

 

[JeyRo]

Leave it to a bunch of psychologists in training to become prickly over a silly joke. Ah, the culture of the chronically offended. . .

I'm offended by that.

 

[Pragma]

Leave it to a bunch of psychologists in training to become prickly over a silly joke. Ah, the culture of the chronically offended. . .

I'm not sure that the folks offended by "that's what she said" understand that the humor in The Office is largely focused on the man saying it looking like a jack*****.

 

[wigflip]

Leave it to a bunch of psychologists in training to become prickly over a silly joke. Ah, the culture of the chronically offended. . .

Some people find it offensive for the same reason others find it funny. By quipping, "that's what she said," you take something non-sexual and unexpectedly place it in a sexual context. Since many women already have to deal with that daily (being objectified, sexualized in professional or other everyday settings), some of us find it a little more familiar and somewhat less than hilarious.

 

[wigflip]

I'm not sure that the folks offended by "that's what she said" understand that the humor in The Office is largely focused on the man saying it looking like a jack*****.

I forgot to add that to the list:

1. "you have no sense of humor"
2. "you're too touchy/sensitive/easily offended"
3. "oh, no, you're offended because you just don't understand. here, let me explain it to you..."

So, you're arguing, Pragma, that every time people use "that's what s/he said," they are making a reflexive comment sending up their own masculinity? Or that, because it was used--how many years ago?--on a TV show that that context should trump the context in which it's actually used in conversation with other live people?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

As we already have a few recent threads dealing with many of the issues popping up in recent posts (I actually think the "that's what she said" issue specifically has come up and been discussed before, for example), let's see if we can't perhaps redirect back to the original topics presented by the OP and first few posts here, while of course also doing our best to maintain a collegial, respectful, and professionally-appropriate atmosphere.

Thank ya much, y'all.

 

[Pragma]

I forgot to add that to the list:

1. "you have no sense of humor"
2. "you're too touchy/sensitive/easily offended"
3. "oh, no, you're offended because you just don't understand. here, let me explain it to you..."

So, you're arguing, Pragma, that every time people use "that's what s/he said," they are making a reflexive comment sending up their own masculinity? Or that, because it was used--how many years ago?--on a TV show that that context should trump the context in which it's actually used in conversation with other live people?

Don't attribute that all to me. Some people do make jokes based on current popular media sources (which I figured was a safe assumption based on iwillheal's post).

As for the relative merits of debating every single minute *potentially* offensive joke, I think you know where I stand on that. We may as well walk around gagged because someone somewhere could always be offended, even when there is no intent.

Then there is of course the difference between a) being offended and b) saying something about it. If people always said something about it, it would be a really annoying world. I certainly let things slide that I am offended by, because otherwise I would have no friends.

 

[Pragma]

As we already have a few recent threads dealing with many of the issues popping up in recent posts (I actually think the "that's what she said" issue specifically has come up and been discussed before, for example), let's see if we can't perhaps redirect back to the original topics presented by the OP and first few posts here, while of course also doing our best to maintain a collegial, respectful, and professionally-appropriate atmosphere.

Thank ya much, y'all.

Okay will do.

 

[wigflip]

Okay will do.

We agree.

 

[Member6523]

It seems to me that most psychologists are pretty satisfied with their jobs. At least, the ones in academia and my internship training site. Maybe they are the ones who "made" it? But to be honest, most of my friends who finished their training seem to enjoy their lives. Really, the only place where I see it otherwise is right here on this board...

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Glad I could help bring y'all to a consensus

I've said before that, at least in my experience, I think part of the dissatisfaction with clinical psych in at least a few practitioners and trainees stems from the fact that many of us at one point considered medical school. If one makes the decision to forego the medical path in favor of clinical psych without fully processing and coming to terms with what that actually entails, I could definitely see this bringing about significant bitterness (especially if you frequently work in medical centers, where physicians are the "top dogs" in most situations). I've certainly had peers who perpetually felt one-down when compared to physicians, and had noticeable chips on their shoulders because of this.

Even if the decision to switch from med school to grad school was informed and well thought out, there's just a natural tendency to compare ourselves to physicians (again, perhaps in part because of the settings in which we work, and the relatively similar overall lengths of training), which tends not to end well for us. Psychology has also been notoriously bad at self-advocacy, which can lead to inter-discipline frustration.

However, given the youth of psychology as a profession, I feel like many of these types of growing pains are somewhat common and to be expected. I think the uncertainty that is inherent because of the field's youthfulness is unsettling in many respects, but can perhaps be energizing in others (colored by our own individual proclivities toward optimism or pessimism).

 

[Pragma]

Glad I could help bring y'all to a consensus

I've said before that, at least in my experience, I think part of the dissatisfaction with clinical psych in at least a few practitioners and trainees stems from the fact that many of us at one point considered medical school. If one makes the decision to forego the medical path in favor of clinical psych without fully processing and coming to terms with what that actually entails, I could definitely see this bringing about significant bitterness (especially if you frequently work in medical centers, where physicians are the "top dogs" in most situations). I've certainly had peers who perpetually felt one-down when compared to physicians, and had noticeable chips on their shoulders because of this.

Even if the decision to switch from med school to grad school was informed and well thought out, there's just a natural tendency to compare ourselves to physicians (again, perhaps in part because of the settings in which we work, and the relatively similar overall lengths of training), which tends not to end well for us. Psychology has also been notoriously bad at self-advocacy, which can lead to inter-discipline frustration.

However, given the youth of psychology as a profession, I feel like many of these types of growing pains are somewhat common and to be expected. I think the uncertainty that is inherent because of the field's youthfulness is unsettling in many respects, but can perhaps be energizing in others (colored by our own individual proclivities toward optimism or pessimism).

Honestly, I have seen the "physician envy" first hand, but it never made sense to me. If I wanted to be a physician - I would have gone to medical school. I wasn't really exposed to the inferiority complex until I got into neuropsychology, and those that seemed obsessed with it didn't seem happy.

I think people are more disappointed by unrealistic expectations. I think that those expectations are fueled, in part, by a) marketers for programs, b) professors and instructors who are not candid enough with applicants, being overly positive, and c) naive thinking about our professional organizations and status within the larger economic framework.

I know that I did a fair amount of research when I applied to graduate school at age 21. But probably not as much as I should have. I just sort of assumed that APA had things under control and didn't really become aware of the systemic problems in leadership and lack of lobbying until I was already in a program. That's my own fault for not digging deep enough - I did a lot of research about graduate school but I didn't consider some of the broader issues. I didn't know what I didn't know. I am glad to see so many folks on these boards getting more information before applying - I think you are wise to do so.

All of that said, I ended up in a good place. It was just a lot tougher to get there than I thought it would be, and I might have a few gray hairs developing because of it.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Honestly, I have seen the "physician envy" first hand, but it never made sense to me. If I wanted to be a physician - I would have gone to medical school. I wasn't really exposed to the inferiority complex until I got into neuropsychology, and those that seemed obsessed with it didn't seem happy.

I think people are more disappointed by unrealistic expectations. I think that those expectations are fueled, in part, by a) marketers for programs, b) professors and instructors who are not candid enough with applicants, being overly positive, and c) naive thinking about our professional organizations and status within the larger economic framework.

I know that I did a fair amount of research when I applied to graduate school at age 21. But probably not as much as I should have. I just sort of assumed that APA had things under control and didn't really become aware of the systemic problems in leadership and lack of lobbying until I was already in a program. That's my own fault for not digging deep enough - I did a lot of research about graduate school but I didn't consider some of the broader issues. I didn't know what I didn't know. I am glad to see so many folks on these boards getting more information before applying - I think you are wise to do so.

All of that said, I ended up in a good place. It was just a lot tougher to get there than I thought it would be, and I might have a few gray hairs developing because of it.

Yeah, I'd intended to mention the unrealistic expectations concept as well, but by the time I'd finished typing out my post, my brain was already all muddled. Needless to say, I agree with everything you've mentioned above.

Re: the professors/instructors point specifically, I think that in some cases it's (as you've stated) a lack of being candid. However, I also think that with some professors/instructors, it can just reflect a lack of touch with/understanding of how things really are for newly-minted psychologists these days. Heck, even many of the supervisors I had who were generally in tune with these issues and were aware of, for example, the internship imbalance in general had no idea how bad it actually was. Heck, our DCT was still (to the best of my knowledge) encouraging people to only apply to 5-6 programs as recently as a couple years ago.

 

[wigflip]

Yeah, I'd intended to mention the unrealistic expectations concept as well, but by the time I'd finished typing out my post, my brain was already all muddled. Needless to say, I agree with everything you've mentioned above.

Re: the professors/instructors point specifically, I think that in some cases it's (as you've stated) a lack of being candid.

This speaks more to grad school climate than career outcomes, but I had lunch with my UG psych mentor a term after starting my social science doctoral program, and in response to my disappointment in the general climate of grad education, s/he said, "Yeah, we profs do a pretty good job of concealing that stuff from undergrads. You don't find out what it's really like until you're in grad school."

I've found that to be true in multiple arenas, similar to AA above: profs either don't have knowledge of the current job market or willfully distort information to prospectives (for any one of a variety of reasons).

 

[Manevi]

As we already have a few recent threads dealing with many of the issues popping up in recent posts (I actually think the "that's what she said" issue specifically has come up and been discussed before, for example), let's see if we can't perhaps redirect back to the original topics presented by the OP and first few posts here, while of course also doing our best to maintain a collegial, respectful, and professionally-appropriate atmosphere.

Thank ya much, y'all.

Thank you very much, I appreciate that post.

Okay, looking over other posts now, is it accurate to say that a good deal of dissatisfaction comes from comparison with psychiatrists? Or is it more about the money? So probably better that psychologists get paid like psychiatrists than vice versa. So if psychologists get paid like psychiatrists, say 150k/yr on average, is there anything else that is dissatisfying about this career? Too much paperwork or maybe the work itself (I heard some people get assaulted by patients), or prestige of the job or whatever else I can not think of...

 

[valentinoRossi]

This is a post from a similar thread a few months ago....i found it interesting. Some of the points this guy made are a bit extreme in my opinion.

" I find the overarching themes of ppl.'s discontent to be someone surprising and ultimately amusing. Here are some point to consider:

Gripe 1: Psychologists don't make enough $$: If you go into psychology to "get paid" you are silly and deserve little sympathy. Psychology is ultimately a helping profession and one that you can be well compensated for. Earning $60-$80K is a very reasonable salary. Of course, there is potential to earn a lot more, but even at the low end, the profession is well compensated by American standards (average income ~45K). What seems to bother some ppl. is that their friends who went to medical school or Wall Street make so much more money. First, there are a ton of psych. students that couldn't hack pre-med so they go into psychology. So, considering the road to an MD is vastly more difficult, it's kinda disingenuous to say both professions should be compensated at the same level. As for those that bemoan not becoming a CEO or Wall Street maven, how could you even compare the two? It's a totally different life and, if you question why didn't go that route, you are either not appreciating what you have or you got into psychology for the wrong reasons.

Gripe 2. The road to success in psychology is so hard: Wah wah wah, boo hoo hoo. Tell me one worthwhile profession that doesn't involve a hard climb. I'm friends with several MD's and their training never stops. Many are in their mid-30's and they working non-stop for less than a ton of money. Why should psychology be any different? The world today is difficult for EVERYONE and to expect to graduate from a Ph.D. program at 28 and have the world in your hands is immature and spoiled.

Gripe 3. There is so much competition: The really should get lumped in with no. 2. Stiff competition is the name of the game for every profession today. My wife just earned a Ph.D from a top-Ivy university in biophysics and there are three post-doc's in her lab that are on their fourth yr. of post-doc work just waiting for a tenure track position to open up. And they are working on curing cancer....So please, stop griping about having to still compete after graduating from a psychology Ph.D. program. Also, the grim outlook that most ppl. seem to portray for the profession is likely anecdotal and not supported by facts. If you look at any recent vocational publications, the job outlook for psychology is actually much better than that of most professions.

I think what really happens in this profession is that, in college, the subject attracts a lot of bright ppl. that haven't really figured out what they really want to do in life. They end up majoring in psychology because studying human behavior is interesting and they think they can end up making tons of dough listening to ppl. talk about their problems all day. They end up working really hard because they realize getting into a psychology graduate program is a lot more competitive than they initially thought, only to graduate with a Ph.D at 28, but without ppl. lining up to gain from the immense wisdom they have attained during their life spent as a student. This in turn makes them sad and bitter. The truth is, many ppl. in this field have no business being in it, because they lack the humility and empathy necessary to be a good therapist. Those skills come from life experience, not from school.

As a final note, I would like to pre-emptively apologize to anyone I may have offended in this post. I know that making sweeping generalizations is dangerous and my summations may not apply to many of you.""


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12269255#post12269255

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Gripe 1: ....First, there are a ton of psych. students that couldn't hack pre-med so they go into psychology. So, considering the road to an MD is vastly more difficult, it's kinda disingenuous to say both professions should be compensated at the same level.

The truth is, many ppl. in this field have no business being in it, because they lack the humility and empathy necessary to be a good therapist. Those skills come from life experience, not from school.

I think that can be a problem for some, but I think the larger threat to the field are the anti-science "stats & research are icky" crowd who want to do the touchy-feely stuff without learning the underlying science of the field.

 

[KillerDiller]

Gripe 2. The road to success in psychology is so hard: Wah wah wah, boo hoo hoo. Tell me one worthwhile profession that doesn't involve a hard climb. I'm friends with several MD's and their training never stops. Many are in their mid-30's and they working non-stop for less than a ton of money. Why should psychology be any different? The world today is difficult for EVERYONE and to expect to graduate from a Ph.D. program at 28 and have the world in your hands is immature and spoiled.

I have a bone to pick with the idea that medical school is so much more difficult than psych grad school. However, that has already been discussed in numerous other threads. The frequent consensus seems to be that although the work is different, it is not less difficult.

Anyway, the point I actually came here to make is that I hear a variation of the above quotation from clients all the time. "People in third world countries have real problems, so I don't deserve to be depressed." It's distorted thinking, and such assertions only serve to make people feel guilty for not being positive all the time. We're allowed to complain and vent about difficulties in the profession. What other professions put up with is irrelevant. The fact that some med student got less sleep the night before doesn't suddenly take away my fatigue.

I guess I won't even get started on the characterization of psych PhD grads as being 28, immature, and spoiled compared to all those seasoned mid-30s MDs .

 

[Pragma]

I find it interesting that often the folks critical of those who are "negative" are the ones who haven't gone to graduate school, or gotten very far through it.

A realistic appraisal of the field is not overwhelmingly positive. It's important to make an informed decision.

That said, job satisfaction is about mindset to some extent. You might need to alter your expectations if you don't want to be disappointed. Not a lot of people are going to create lucrative private practices or become renowned R1 scholars compared to how many are graduating from programs. Of course, this issue is not specific to psychology, either - not everyone gets to be on top. But a lot of us can be moderately successful.

 

[Pragma]

I have a bone to pick with the idea that medical school is so much more difficult than psych grad school. However, that has already been discussed in numerous other threads. The frequent consensus seems to be that although the work is different, it is not less difficult.

Anyway, the point I actually came here to make is that I hear a variation of the above quotation from clients all the time. "People in third world countries have real problems, so I don't deserve to be depressed." It's distorted thinking, and such assertions only serve to make people feel guilty for not being positive all the time. We're allowed to complain and vent about difficulties in the profession. What other professions put up with is irrelevant. The fact that some med student got less sleep the night before doesn't suddenly take away my fatigue.

I guess I won't even get started on the characterization of psych PhD grads as being 28, immature, and spoiled compared to all those seasoned mid-30s MDs .

I think we should stop comparing. They aren't the same. MDs have their own challenges and benefits. Plenty of those students are total pieces of work. But who cares?

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Manevi,

No one has the right to tell you what sort of income you “should” be satisfied with. People have different values about their priorities in life. If you want to earn an income that is high enough to support a family in an expensive part of the country there is no need to apologize for that. Just because that is not important to someone else does not mean that it shouldn’t be important to you.

When evaluating the comments on this thread, I’d urge you to consider their sources. If you want to know what it is like to be a teacher, do you ask an undergraduate education major or do you ask someone who has experience teaching in a classroom? The same thing applies here. Practicing as a psychologist is nothing like studying psychology at the undergraduate level.

I think one of the hardest things about choosing any career is that it is hard to know what it is actually going to be like to work in that career. Add to that, people’s values tend to change over time. What you want in your 20’s can be very different than what you want in your 30’s. I commend you for taking the important step of researching the experiences of professionals in the field before you make this big commitment.

I wish you luck on your journey wherever it takes you.

Best.
Dr. E

 

[JeyRo]

First, from what I've read about the subject there tends to be a somewhat weak relationship between overall life satisfaction and happiness after you reach a certain income level, that is, once basic needs are met (food, shelter, clothes, some basic comforts), more money doesn't seem to reliably equate to more happiness.

Second, again, from what I've read, when subjected to surveys compared to other disciplines and job categories, psychologists tend to reach near the top when it comes to overall job satisfaction. At the same time, psychologists' incomes tend to be modest at best on average compared to other professions.

(Citations available for the above on request, but c'mon, don't make me do that)

Finally, more personally and individually, this completely agrees with my individual experience. I don't make tons of money - particularly in light of the fact I made some bad decisions when I was younger and took out significant loans to go to school - but I make a decent living as a VA psychologist, even after the loan payments are factored in. More importantly, I enjoy what I do, I find it to be relatively low stress but sufficiently intellectually challenging to make it interesting. People appreciate me and respect me on the job, and I get tons of autonomy. Also, I'm one of those people who work 40 hours a week and no more (along with significant opportunities for flexible scheduling of the time I do work), and prefer it that way, as I have two small children at home.

So, for what that's worth.

 

[Sanman]

I believe Daniel Gilbert suggested 75k/yr was the threshold for happiness. For some here, that has been reached and for others it has not. Part of the answers you get here depend on how successful the individual was in achieving what they wanted. I work with many psychologists that intended to treat children and ended up in geriatrics due to lack of good jobs in their area. They will likely be less happy than someone like Jeyro that ended up in an area of practice he wanted with a lifestyle he wants. The devil is in the details.

 

[JeyRo]

I work with many psychologists that intended to treat children and ended up in geriatrics due to lack of good jobs in their area. They will likely be less happy....

Yikes. I feel the opposite. If I wasn't able to work in geriatrics and had to end up working with children I'd get depressed about it.

 

[Sanman]

Yikes. I feel the opposite. If I wasn't able to work in geriatrics and had to end up working with children I'd get depressed about it.

Agreed, but with the cuts in services to schools and special ed programs, I know at least a few people that either did not find a job with children or could not afford the pay cut over geriatrics. I know another person that is leaving their current position working with kids for a better paying one as there just is not enough pay. Many of the child people I know that are early career are making in the $35-55k range. There are more geriatrics positions and salaries are more competitive from what I have seen.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

It's interesting, given that (to the best of my knowledge) insurance billing for kids is one of those "carve out" areas that seems to be fairly well-defined and protected. I've heard (and seen) of similar of difficulties in peers with respect to finding jobs working with kiddos, though.

 

[JeyRo]

Agreed, but with the cuts in services to schools and special ed programs, I know at least a few people that either did not find a job with children or could not afford the pay cut over geriatrics. I know another person that is leaving their current position working with kids for a better paying one as there just is not enough pay. Many of the child people I know that are early career are making in the $35-55k range. There are more geriatrics positions and salaries are more competitive from what I have seen.

I guess.... although my particular area is long term care psychology and honestly, if there weren't VA positions available I'm not sure how I'd hack it in the private market. Some geriatricians I know can somehow make the math work when it comes to billing Medicare, but it seems brutal to me.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Agreed, but with the cuts in services to schools and special ed programs, I know at least a few people that either did not find a job with children or could not afford the pay cut over geriatrics. I know another person that is leaving their current position working with kids for a better paying one as there just is not enough pay. Many of the child people I know that are early career are making in the $35-55k range. There are more geriatrics positions and salaries are more competitive from what I have seen.

RE: child psychologists/early career

I am a child-family psychologist and I wanted to chime in that I agree that the kid market does seem dominated by early career folks. In addition to finances, I think that there are a lot of other reasons that people choose to work primarily with adults once they become established.

One is that seeing kids seems to require a lot of extra (unpaid/unbillable) time for things such as meeting with schools, collaborating with teachers, extra phone calls, etc. Additionally, a good chunk of your caseload is likely to be from divorced or divorcing parents. These situations can be filled with tricky ethics, attempts to "use you," and a general lack of cooperation. Add to that the heartbreak of meeting kids who desperately need therapy and their parents fail to follow through or make the necessary changes in their own dealings with the child. It is easy to decide that the extra hassle of seeing kids is not worth it!

That said, I do think there as a lot of positives about seeing kids. I think it opened some doors for me that I am comfortable seeing either kids or adults. I think it helped in getting an internship placement and my PP position. The other positive for me is the actual clinical work. It tends to require an extra level of creativity and the mode of delivery is often "fun" (e.g., drawing pictures, playing games, expression through puppets.) But I can see how it is not for everyone. Also, I know for myself I need to see a mix of kids and adults to stay sane!

Dr. E

 

[Pragma]

Funny, kids seems to be "en vogue" these days. I saw lots of job openings for pediatric psychologists a few months ago.

 

[Sanman]

Funny, kids seems to be "en vogue" these days. I saw lots of job openings for pediatric psychologists a few months ago.

It may just be market saturation. This is especially true for those that may not have as strong a pediatric background, but prefer kids.

 

[paramour]

I wish they had a child psych around here. I keep getting the buggers referred to me, even though I repeatedly tell folks I'd really, really, really prefer not to deal with them. Oh, well, gives me a bit of extra experience. It's been interesting, but I definitely couldn't make it my entire caseload (and to think I considered applying solely to child psych programs... ).

---

And don't programs try to weed out those idgits who want to go into psych to "listen to other folks talk about their problems and then impart their never ending wisdom"?

Wisdom gained from life?

I didn't sign up to be a "therapist."

---

Someone mentioned the sleep thing, we've had more than a few of our program's students do on-call gigs. We lose sleep, gosh darnit! It's not just for med students.

 

[Sanman]

I guess.... although my particular area is long term care psychology and honestly, if there weren't VA positions available I'm not sure how I'd hack it in the private market. Some geriatricians I know can somehow make the math work when it comes to billing Medicare, but it seems brutal to me.

I bill Medicare now in LTC and in can get brutal. However, if you see 7-9 people a day you can make 70k+. Keeping that pace up can be difficult though and is one of the reasons I don't plan to stay in this setting for the long term and prefer VA, administration, or private practice. As it is, private practice allows me to keep my sanity as it is slower and a bit more comfortable.