MD Chances/List/Etc for a low GPA, high MCAT non-trad

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ChrisMack390

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Hey all, I majored in biology at a decent undergrad (ranked ~40). I graduated in 2013 and have been working full time since. I plan to apply next cycle. I would love help with my school list and any suggestions on how to become more competitive since I have ~6 months.

NJ Resident

Stats:
  • Undergrad - 3.44 cGPA, 3.22 sGPA
    • College started off roughly with some very dumb Cs and Ws. I do have somewhat of an upward trend, including all A grades my last 32 straight credits which did include physics and a couple of upper level bio courses.
  • 3.99 graduate GPA
    • I'm working on a master's in bio at night while working full time. I've gotten all A's and 1 A minus. This includes various health/science classes like Biology of Cancer, Stem Cell Bio, Biostats, Genetics of Human Disease, etc.
  • 518 MCAT (97th percentile)
    • 129 chem, 128 cars, 131 bio, 130 psych
    • 93% / 87% / 99% / 97%

Research:
  • ~150 hours in an academic entomology lab studying the immune system of ants and termites (strange I know); resulted in a publication and national conference presentation
  • ~2000 hours working in an immunology lab at a biotech company; help with various projects but primarily in testing a particular drug candidate for an autoimmune disease; obviously no pubs but did present results within company and did work closely with my PI on devising experiments
  • 1.5 years full time as a clinical research coordinator in an oncology center. About 1/3 of this time was spent in clinic directly interacting with patients and physicians and about another 1/3 was spent working on data and such with study PIs.
  • 1.5 years full time as a regulatory coordinator after a promotion in the same oncology center. No more patient interaction (though a big responsibility is advocating for patients via bureaucratic channels), but more heavily involved in FDA/IRB reporting, study data, assisting with protocol and ICF authorship, etc.
  • Some amount of hours working on my master's thesis. I'm just planning my proposal at the moment, so I'm not sure the exact time involvement, several hundred hours I'd think. We will be doing a prospective epidemiological study on the influence of lifestyle and dietary factors on outcomes in patients with metastatic colon cancer. Should ultimately be published/presented, but not before I apply to med school.
Community Service:
  • ~75 hours as a health educator teaching health classes in inner city high schools
  • ~100 hours at a homeless day shelter/soup kitchen cooking and serving meals
  • ~100 hours at a state run primarily psychiatric hospital
    • Helped patients in the rehab program with their academic needs/desires
      • GED studying, enrolling in online courses, simply using Khan and Coursera, etc.
    • Volunteered at various recreational activities put on for the inpatients (movie nights, BBQs, etc)
    • Patient visitor/snack cart on some weekends
  • ~75 hours for a global health organization
    • Worked in a group to facilitate "tumor board" meetings between a small hospital in Africa and a large academic center in the US
    • Researched similar projects and tech solutions to ensure maximum quality of meetings
    • Otherwise helped with growing partnership between the 2 hospitals

Other:
  • Vice President of Career Development for a group of young professionals at the hospital I work at
    • The group primarily promotes social events and community service related events which I help with
    • My specific role is to encourage career development by setting up discussion panels, assisting with resume's, etc.
  • Musician
    • I've played the bass and some guitar and keyboard for >12 years now
    • Released an album of all original music
    • Regularly played my music live in Boston and on tour around the Northeast
    • Was a resident DJ at a weekly live music night that brought in national and international musicians as well as other forms of art
That will probably be it for AMCAS, though if there is room I will mention writing (published a couple of articles in a student magazine at my undergrad) and cooking/hot sauce making/beer brewing.

I would like to apply to ~30 MD schools. I would strongly prefer MD but will throw in some DOs if people really think it is necessary. This is what I have so far:


New Jersey Medical School
Robert Woods Johnson Medical School
Cooper Medical School
Columbia
Duke
Vanderbilt
Northwestern
Case Western
Miami
NYU
Sinai
Dartmouth
Jefferson
Temple
Loyola
Rochester
Tufts
Boston University
Tulane
USC
Wake Forest
Emory
Albany
Hofstra
Oakland Beaumont
Rush
Rosalind Franklin
Virginia Commonwealth
Vermont
Wayne State (low OOS, but will consider me to have 3.99 GPA)

I came to this list primarily by using WedgeDawg's spreadsheet, though I want to apply to more schools than it said I should. I think the somewhat unique nature of my app (bad GPA but good MCAT and ECs) warrants that.

Any advice is greatly appreciated! @Goro a lot of this was based on your tips. @goldy490 since you have such a similar app maybe you have insight.

THANKS!

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Thanks guys! Means a lot coming from each of you.
 
Stelar ECs!
 
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Am I safe to ditch Albany and replace with UAZ-Phoenix? This would purely be based on geographic desirability and my girlfriends residency prospects, but I don't want to kick myself for it later.
 
Am I safe to ditch Albany and replace with UAZ-Phoenix? This would purely be based on geographic desirability and my girlfriends residency prospects, but I don't want to kick myself for it later.

Yes, that should be totally fine. You have a solid application. Switching two schools isn't going to keep you out of medical school. If you're hesitant, apply to both.
 
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Yes, that should be totally fine. You have a solid application. Switching two schools isn't going to keep you out of medical school. If you're hesitant, apply to both.

Thanks. On one level I know I have a solid app, but also I will remain paranoid about my ugpa until further notice.
 
Quick question - I am assuming by affirming this is an OK list people think I have a decent shot at getting an MD acceptance? I can't decide whether its worth throwing in some DO schools as well. I would prefer MD but would happily go to a DO school.
 
It all just comes down to what your plans are/what you are looking for.

If you dont get into an MD school, would you rather reapply/look into SMPs or go the DO route and start school sooner? Me personally in your shoes with that MCAT and the upcoming merger amongst other things I would probably look into SMPs/reapplying MD. But I can easily see an argument for the other option and that's fine for those people.

You have discordant stats. Predicting how your application will be viewed is difficult. There are people with similar stats who get into multiple top 20 programs every year. Likewise there are certainly people with these type of stats who after 2 app cycles still cant find anywhere to take them. The factors that will determine which side you lie on to a fair extent are very hard to gague in a anonymous WAMC thread. I would at least think about a Plan B if you dont get in, be it DOs or an SMP or something along those lines.
 
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Is it a reasonable plan to apply to my MD list June 1, see what kind of feedback I get, and then apply to DOs in like October or so if need be?
 
Is it a reasonable plan to apply to my MD list June 1, see what kind of feedback I get, and then apply to DOs in like October or so if need be?

Yes. And SMP deadlines are well later than that also (you could honestly submit an SMP application now this time next year and be fine).
 
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Honestly I would much rather go to PCOM or something than spend another year in non-med school academics.
 
Honestly I would much rather go to PCOM or something than spend another year in non-med school academics.

Yeah I totally get that. As long as you put in the time to figure out things like the differences between MDs vs DOs, the biases DOs still face, where the average DO vs MD ends up with a relatively similar app(ie a DO vs MD with a 225 step 1) the upcoming merger effect on DOs etc and are fine with it for DOs, that's a perfectly fine decision.
 
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Quick question - I am assuming by affirming this is an OK list people think I have a decent shot at getting an MD acceptance? I can't decide whether its worth throwing in some DO schools as well. I would prefer MD but would happily go to a DO school.
I think you will get interviews with that list.
 
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@Goro @gonnif and anyone else who has a spare 2 cents:

How do you all think it would be best to address my crappy undergraduate grades? I have elected not to mention this in my personal statement, as IMO it is best to focus on medicine and why schools should want me in their class rather than, as a friend put it, shining a flashlight on the worst part of my application.

A number of schools specifically ask about this in their secondaries (address any grades below B, address any academic inconsistencies, etc). For those schools I use the secondary to point out that I was not a mature/focused student early on in college, but I finally hit my stride and began doing well my senior year. The change was in part catalyzed by an upper level neurobiology course which led me to a passion for studying the inner workings of the human body and to finally understanding intrinsically motivating learning.

Should I do the same for schools that have secondary prompts for "anything else you want us to know" and such?

What about for schools that do not include either of these on the secondary? Should I just leave it alone and pray they deduce for themselves that something changed and they can ask me what it was in an interview?
 
@Goro @gonnif and anyone else who has a spare 2 cents:

How do you all think it would be best to address my crappy undergraduate grades? I have elected not to mention this in my personal statement, as IMO it is best to focus on medicine and why schools should want me in their class rather than, as a friend put it, shining a flashlight on the worst part of my application.

A number of schools specifically ask about this in their secondaries (address any grades below B, address any academic inconsistencies, etc). For those schools I use the secondary to point out that I was not a mature/focused student early on in college, but I finally hit my stride and began doing well my senior year. The change was in part catalyzed by an upper level neurobiology course which led me to a passion for studying the inner workings of the human body and to finally understanding intrinsically motivating learning.

Should I do the same for schools that have secondary prompts for "anything else you want us to know" and such?

What about for schools that do not include either of these on the secondary? Should I just leave it alone and pray they deduce for themselves that something changed and they can ask me what it was in an interview?

Not goro or gonnif, but yes I have seen people with grade trends like yours address it in secondaries that asked (including the "anything you'd like to know?" questions).

It's not necessary to address in my opinion. Schools will notice the positive trend in grades and that killer mcat whether you mention it or not!

good luck applying and definitely update this thread on how your cycle turns out!!
 
Not goro or gonnif, but yes I have seen people with grade trends like yours address it in secondaries that asked (including the "anything you'd like to know?" questions).

It's not necessary to address in my opinion. Schools will notice the positive trend in grades and that killer mcat whether you mention it or not!

good luck applying and definitely update this thread on how your cycle turns out!!


Yes, I have also considered the strategy of not saying anything and letting the record speak for itself, but I am worried about coming off as lacking the self awareness to realize that you aren't supposed to get a bunch of Cs in biology courses and then apply to medical school.
 
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Yes, I have also considered the strategy of not saying anything and letting the record speak for itself, but I am worried about coming off as lacking the self awareness to realize that you aren't supposed to get a bunch of Cs in biology courses and then apply to medical school.

When you realized you wanted to go to medical school you took your coursework more seriously because to get into medical school you need good grades.

Or did you know all throughout college? Regardless there are people who did and still did bad but as people get older they are more mature and serious about their education so it really is fine if you don't mention it. Idk if you want you could work the reinvention theme into your PS as well.
 
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When you realized you wanted to go to medical school you took your coursework more seriously because to get into medical school you need good grades.

Or did you know all throughout college? Regardless there are people who did and still did bad but as people get older they are more mature and serious about their education so it really is fine if you don't mention it. Idk if you want you could work the reinvention theme into your PS as well.

I had no interest in med school at all until about a year after college. That is suggested in my PS (basically that I wanted to work in research, got involved in clinical research, met doctors and cancer patients, etc....).
 
I am worried about coming off as lacking the self awareness to realize that you aren't supposed to get a bunch of Cs in biology courses and then apply to medical school.

This I wouldnt worry about and comes off as a bit too neurotic. You let your application and record speak for itself. Saying "Oh I realize my GPA is low" isnt really adding to your application.

Address when asked about low grades. Otherwise, I dont really see too much value in bringing it up separately. Actions, not words speak. That's what your transcript, grade trend, ECs, MCAT etc are for. The schools that see those C's and run away are the types that arent going to be swayed by a statement about them or you mentioning it separately "I know my GPA is low" or something along those lines. The schools willing to look past them arent going to really care about you stating you have awareness about your low GPA, rather theyll look for ways you have remediated it.
 
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Concur 100% with my learned colleague.

@ChrisMack390 @Goro

@starspells has the some good ideas, in my view, of to how to discuss in secondaries, but I would mention it in primary PS, as a sentence or less than that to simply acknowledge self awareness. The upward trend is good, pattern is supported by graduate GPA ( an example of how graduate can help though not a direct GPA fix). Even with your good MCAT, I would be inclined to lean to completing masters before applying, though I assume that your are doing it slowly part time after work (been there, done that). I think you are on the right track. Additionally, what I often recommend to nontrads with significant "grade baggage" is to take the last 2 years of your GPA and use that to guide a school list, along with MCAT. For uneven students like yourself, relying on an overall GPA is misleading. Additionally, you have some strong research so those research-heavy schools may be interested. I think you need to reach higher. My most recent example of success like this was someone with a low 3.something GPA that was terrible first two years of college and utterly fantastic last 3 years followed by long research. This person had multiple acceptance even after very, very, very late application (like November still doing secondaries.) What this applicant turned down would make people's jaws drop.

So, you are doing well with what you got.
 
@Goro + @gonnif

The conclusion of my PS currently contains this statement:

With my growing passion for medicine, I have pursued a master’s degree in biology at night to reinforce my love of learning and my ability to perform as a high academic level.

Would you consider that sufficient, or do you think its important to more directly address the UG grades?
 
I chose to address low GPA in secondaries not the primary...the result: no success at any school without an "explain your bad grades" prompt.

I know thats a super unhelpful n=1 story, but maybe a good idea to put it in the PS. Also I recall there being a box where you could address academic difficulties in the primary app, but am not 100% sure...I could be totally mistaken.
 
I chose to address low GPA in secondaries not the primary...the result: no success at any school without an "explain your bad grades" prompt.

I know thats a super unhelpful n=1 story, but maybe a good idea to put it in the PS. Also I recall there being a box where you could address academic difficulties in the primary app, but am not 100% sure...I could be totally mistaken.

Did you use the generic "anything else" prompts, or did you only use explicit "explain your bad grades" type prompts?
 
Did you use the generic "anything else" prompts, or did you only use explicit "explain your bad grades" type prompts?

I didn't use the generic anything else prompts, because I was an idiot lol. I was under the mistaken assumption no-one actually read them anyway so they were pointless (thanks to my helpless pre-med advisor). Should've used them.
 
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Btw just wondering out of curiosity not really relevant here but I remember you had a thread where you talked about how your state schools told you they might not look at you as a resident, did you get to the bottom of that and figure that out?

If your state schools dont consider you IS perhaps I might consider slightly tweaking your list just a little bit, nothing major though.
 
Btw just wondering out of curiosity not really relevant here but I remember you had a thread where you talked about how your state schools told you they might not look at you as a resident, did you get to the bottom of that and figure that out?

If your state schools dont consider you IS perhaps I might consider slightly tweaking your list just a little bit, nothing major though.

It's looking like I am all set at 1 of the 3 and should be OK at the other two.

Out of curiosity though, what would you change if I said no, beyond obviously deleting the NJ schools?
 
It's looking like I am all set at 1 of the 3 and should be OK at the other two.

Out of curiosity though, what would you change if I said no, beyond obviously deleting the NJ schools?

Sounds like youll be ok then. This is all a moot pt mostly then but if you did have no state schools here might be two potential things to consider. Key word is consider not "You should do", more just potential ideas worth some level of consideration but not necessairly the right call.

a) Targeting schools most likely to interview you which might mean removing a few reaches
b) Changing some parts of your app strategy if you have no state schools to rely on meaning you might have to try and "stand out" a bit more. I dont want to use the word "aggressive" here but maybe there might be a topic or something in a secondary that otherwise might be risky that you might consider doing because the OOS schools have less "incentive" per se to take you than NJMS and Robert Woods and might need more of a "reason" per se to overlook the 3.2 sGPA.

Your list is by and large pretty good. If you want to tweak a couple things and these arent really big priorities.
1) Id cut Rush. Avg matriculant has 800 service hrs non clinical I believe and in terms of OOS apps/OOS matriculants its about as unfavorable a ratio as youll find of any of these commonly cited schools. RFU is another pretty low yield school as 1/3 of their class comes through their SMP on top of the 12k apps and your MCAT is pretty high for them.
2) Northwestern, Mt Sinai and NYU are all going to be pretty low yield, research exp, upward trend and all if you wanted to trim your list. I like Columbia, Duke and CWRU better as the top school options to consider here.
3) I like Cincinnati Saint Louis and Einstein for you.
4) Va Tech is pretty low yield due to class size but you certainly fit the profile of the type of applicant that has success with them. I dont think Medical College of Wisconsin is a bad option at all here either and they definitely have a more favorable OOS app/OOS matriculant ratio than many of these lower tiers youve listed like Albany, RFU, Wake etc. Ive seen Stony Brook and Ohio State in the past bite on OOS cases like these, particularly Ohio St might not be a bad option if you want a "reach" to replace something like NYU.

I think youll get IIs with your current list though, obsessing over little things like this espec if you have your state schools open shouldnt be a high priority. More just brought it up in case you didnt have state schools, to answer your question and because you listed in your original post you wanted more schools.
 
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Thanks! Some of those schools actually have been added to my list, and I will think about some of the others.
 
ChrisMack, I had a similar application to yours ("killer" ECs, 3.44 cGPA, 3.05 sGPA, 3.94 science post-bacc, 34 MCAT) and ultimately decided to not DIRECTLY address poor grades in my PS; instead, I wrote it in a way that strongly hinted at increased maturity and passion through my EC experiences. I chose to do this for a couple of reasons. Firstly, all of my PS readers told me that it was a downer to read about -- even though all of the standard PS advice says to mention bad grades, I couldn't find a way to word it to yield positive feedback from anyone. Secondly, I found a handful of anecdotes from successful re-invention applicants that said that they had more luck when they chose to not mention anything negative in their PS. It might have been a gamble, but I got 11 interviews with the PS I ended up with.
 
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@mimelim I just saw an old post from you about how you applied with a 3.4 and got into the top of the top schools. Do you have any particular advice or reasons why you think you were successful?
 
Hi friends - another quick question. I have had 2 clinical research jobs:

  • One I forgot to list above, but I spent about 1000 hours there over 2 summers and split my time about evenly between clinical/patient tasks (phlebotomy, EKGs, vitals, urinalyses, etc) and research stuff (sample processing, data collection, IRB correspondence).
  • One I did list above - 3+ years full time at an academic cancer center. At this job my clinic/patient time was much more intimate AND I was much more heavily involved in data analysis and that kind of thing.


On AMCAS I need to classify these as either paid clinical employment OR research time. Obviously in the description I will describe both sides, but I am wondering how to classify them, since I suspect some schools will look at raw hours in each category before delving deeper into what I did (I know Rush will, and they likely aren't the single school that does that).

These are what I see as my options:
  • Call them both research and apply with a crazy number of research hours (>10,000). If my GPA was higher I would probably go ahead and do this and move on, but I am worried that an app like that might turn off some schools that are less research-focused. I'm interested in doing some research, but my primary motivation is to become a doctor and I am of the opinion that I can do research nearly anywhere.
  • Call them both clinical. This would leave me with quite a bit of research time from my undergrad research and master's thesis, but also give me >3000 hours of clinical time. I like this option, but I am worried that schools will become agitated when they read into the experiences and realize they are only partially clinical time.
  • Call one clinical and one research. This would split the time and maybe give my app some more balance, though its hard to decide which is clinical and which is research. Maybe the first one as clinical since I was basically a clinic assistant for a good chunk of the hours and the second one research? Also since the second job was actually one position and then a promotion (see above), I could split that into 2 experiences and call the first one 1.5 years clinical and the second one 1.5 years research.

Any input here? Does this matter or am I being completely neurotic?
 
To elaborate on my last question:

Looking at my activities, a couple of them sit at the intersection of clinic and research, I think I could apply with any of the following combinations:
  • 210 clinical + 9700 research
  • 1210 clinical + 8700 research
  • 7710 clinical + 2200 research
  • 4460 clinical + 5450 research
  • 5460 clinical + 4450 research
Either of the bottom 2 options would require splitting one of my clinical research jobs into 2 activities (I got a promotion halfway through). That is probably fine though, I have a part time job on their that can be removed without much impact.

So I guess my question is, what is more important - to really stand out in a category (research) or to have them relatively balanced? I am somewhat interested in research, but don't feel a need to get into a big research powerhouse or anything like that. To be honest, the most important thing to me is getting into a medical school and becoming a doctor. In my view I will be able to do some level of research just about anywhere and that is plenty for me.
 
You need some research, but the more clinical hours , the better.
To elaborate on my last question:

Looking at my activities, a couple of them sit at the intersection of clinic and research, I think I could apply with any of the following combinations:
  • 210 clinical + 9700 research
  • 1210 clinical + 8700 research
  • 7710 clinical + 2200 research
  • 4460 clinical + 5450 research
  • 5460 clinical + 4450 research
Either of the bottom 2 options would require splitting one of my clinical research jobs into 2 activities (I got a promotion halfway through). That is probably fine though, I have a part time job on their that can be removed without much impact.

So I guess my question is, what is more important - to really stand out in a category (research) or to have them relatively balanced? I am somewhat interested in research, but don't feel a need to get into a big research powerhouse or anything like that. To be honest, the most important thing to me is getting into a medical school and becoming a doctor. In my view I will be able to do some level of research just about anywhere and that is plenty for me.
 
Hm so my GPA stuff came out a bit differently than I expected. I went to a kind of strange undergrad. My program was 5 years long and during those years I took the typical 4 years worth of coursework but also had 1.5 years of work experience (mostly bench research in my case). Because of this, my credits came out a bit wacky. Instead of a 3 mediocre years and straight As my senior year, after AMCAS verification the trend is: 3.33; 2.94; 3.75; 3.68.

I imagine that would be considered a pretty solid upward trend, right? I followed it up with a 3.93 in grad school and 518 on the MCAT. Might actually be better this way than how I originally filled out AMCAS, which was more or less 3.3/3.3/3.3/4.0.
 
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Hm so my GPA stuff came out a bit differently than I expected. I went to a kind of strange undergrad. My program was 5 years long and during those years I took the typical 4 years worth of coursework but also had 1.5 years of work experience (mostly bench research in my case). Because of this, my credits came out a bit wacky. Instead of a 3 mediocre years and straight As my senior year, after AMCAS verification the trend is: 3.33; 2.94; 3.75; 3.68.

I imagine that would be considered a pretty solid upward trend, right? I followed it up with a 3.93 in grad school and 518 on the MCAT. Might actually be better this way than how I originally filled out AMCAS, which was more or less 3.3/3.3/3.3/4.0.

Congratulations!!!!
 
I AM GOING TO BE A DOCTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Goro @gonnif @GrapesofRath @Catalystik @WedgeDawg @The Knife & Gun Club - there is really no way I can thank you enough for all of your advice over the last 2ish years. I got my first acceptance today (been on 10 interviews with 4 more on the books). I absolutely never could have done it without all of your help.
Awesome! Well done. And thanks for your contributed information to the Grad School GPA - does it actually matter? thread in the Nontrad Forum.
 
Great Job! You earned this, now go out and celebrate! Where did you get in if you don't mind me asking (totally fine if you'd rather not say)?
 
Welcome to the great state of Florida!

os-florida-man-sex-gator-20150716
 
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I AM GOING TO BE A DOCTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Goro @gonnif @GrapesofRath @Catalystik @WedgeDawg @The Knife & Gun Club - there is really no way I can thank you enough for all of your advice over the last 2ish years. I got my first acceptance today (been on 10 interviews with 4 more on the books). I absolutely never could have done it without all of your help.

Hi Chris. Congratulations on getting accepted!

Did you by any chance conclude your masters at ASU? I know their is a strong partnership between ASU and Mayo Clinic, and was wondering if that helped in anyway!

Again, congratulations on overcoming the GPA obstacle!
 
Hi Chris. Congratulations on getting accepted!

Did you by any chance conclude your masters at ASU? I know their is a strong partnership between ASU and Mayo Clinic, and was wondering if that helped in anyway!

Again, congratulations on overcoming the GPA obstacle!

Nope! I live in New Jersey and Boston.
 
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