Changing my mind about medicine..what would you have done?

[DrHoosier]

In the past few months I have been turned away from the medical profession for a number of reasons by several people. My problem was that I was looking in the pre-med forums to see why people where still going into medical school.
I finally have been reading threads by people who have been through medical school and are living the life that so many pre-meds wish they were living, and have realized that a majority of you think that it wasn't worth it, for whatever reason. I have a feeling I am just caught up in the pre-med hype and I feel like I need to apply myself to something else that I can be successful at.
So my question to all of you current physicians, what would you have done if you didn't want to go into massive debt, have to deal with the current american medical system, etc. if you could go back to being a college student but still wanted a rewarding career with decent pay? Thanks for all your input. I know this has become a recurring topic on SDN but I can't get it off my mind so I would like to know what you all have to say.

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[Frugal Traveler]

Not much issue with debt given the school I go to... but here's my take.

Pre-meds are fairly ignorant about many things... honestly, it is hard to know what you are getting yourself into without shadowing a physician in the community. I would recommend shadowing someone in clinic and in the hospital to get a feel for the daily schedule. You could also volunteer at hospice, become an EMT, or something like that to get some direct patient contact and see if that feels satisfying.

I would not be deterred by an internet message board... college is a time to figure out what you want to do in life... you are not going to be completely sure but you have to make a guess. The key is actually seeing how medicine works if you are interested in it... NOT reading message boards.

For me, I am going into the internal medicine match, and I am really excited about becoming an internist. Patients and bureaucracy are not fun to deal with at all times, but neither is the standard Joe Blow office desk job. If you keep a positive attitude in life, it will take you far. Really, many people are not satisfied with their job secondary to poor attitude... it's not just isolated to medicine. You also have to consider a good portion of people went to medical school for family expectations or power, the promise of money, sex, whatever else... the thing is I am the same person that I was in college... not much has changed except I found something I truly enjoy. Many people concentrate on money (you even mention "decent pay")... ignore money and do what you enjoy... you are the best at what you enjoy. If you have alot of debt, then worrying about decent pay does come to the forefront somewhat. But being in debt and being happy vs. being in minimal debt and being miserable are two things you have to consider... I would rather be in debt than to be miserable... at least you can pay off debt. Misery just buys you more and more company... I guess like all the negative folks on this board.

Bottom line
1. Explore medicine and stop reading ridiculous pre-med and negative threads (every job has people in it that complain)
2. Try to find out what you enjoy and then do it (easier said than done).

Best wishes in your travels throughout life.

 

[peerie]

Friend,

You must trust your instincts as best you can. That is life. If you are 22 years old then this will make more sense as you go along. The advice given above is excellent; continue to ask these questions and listen to the answers.

My suggestion? do what you like, study what interests you. Major in french/geography/history/finance. Medicine can adapt the person to the field so you, the person are more important than the trappings you bring. What I mean is, the real you is more important than what you major in or all the other stuff. Sometimes, I think that the true person is lost in all the pre-med stuff. So, ignore the pre-med hoopla and just be yourself. The real you will shine through and you will do well based on just being yourself. And, likely you will also be happier because you will just be being yourself.

Don't do medicine for the money or power or perceived 'status.' It won't be there if your heart is not in it. Think of it like this: people who go into medicine for the 'power' or respect are often not respected - because it is so easy to see their motivations. The people who go into medicine with their heart, and are honest in their intentions - and who don't care about the 'power' - are often ironically the very ones who are respected. Such is life.

Keep asking questions, and keep listening to the answers. And then, trust your instincts. Medicine is great, if it's what you really want to be doing and you really like the daily work.

 

[gluon999]

As a 4th year med student, I have been fairly satisfied with medicine so far. Not all branches, but I am glad I've found one that I like enough to keep on going. Overall though, many aspects of medicine have been disappointing (namely the red tape, silly regulations, malpractice/CYA medicine - google it - is the worst).

I'd probably do it again, but then again, I will probably feel differently once through residency. The truth is, people love to complain in every field and the grass is always greener on the other side. What would I have done differently before starting medical school?? I would have worked a little more outside of health/medicine and traveled a little more too, and then gone into medicine anyway after realizing that medicine is still a pretty good career if you find a good field to specialize in. However, medicine is dynamic so things will different by the time you are done with 4 years of school and 3-6 years of residency/fellowship, so yes, it is a pretty big gamble, but a decision only you can make. Best advice is to keep doing what you are doing now, ask a lot of questions from people in the field.

 

[Long Dong]

Cop, I've heard they make 200k giving out traffic tkts and get to carry a gat. Some I know never went to college just HS.

 

[Impromptu]

I am currently doing my intern year and some days the only thing that gets me going is the thought of my massive debt and that I won't be able to pay it off any other way other than winning the lotto or finishing my anesthesiology residency. It is a very depressing piece of motivation. I dream of paying it off as fast as I can, saving a bunch of money, then going into teaching. I was a substitute teacher for a couple years, was really good at it, and enjoyed it. Universally residents have told me that it gets better after intern year and I believe them, but I still have 3/4 of my intern year left.

If I could go back and advise my 19 year old self who had earned a full tuition scholarship for 4 years at a university with many highly respected programs, I would advise myself to get into the nursing program. If 19 year old me didn't believe 31 year old me, I would beat him with a mag-light flashlight.

Pros of RN nursing: Much shorter. I would have been working and earning a paycheck a long time ago. I would have had no debt because of my scholarship. I wouldn't have been frustrated with the Med School admissions process. I would have the option of becoming a CRNA. I would have the ability to own and care for a dog (I really wish I had a dog). I would have been working 3X12 hours days per week, leaving me a whole lot of time for a life and exercise, and boy I need exercise. With all that exercise added onto my naturally tall height I would have been able to beat up anyone calling me a "murse".

Cons of RN nursing: Ultimately, I would make less money over my lifetime. I wouldn't be the boss. I wouldn't have all the knowledge or understanding of an MD (and I may have been glaringly ignorant of my ignorance).

It's really no use for me to dream of what could have been. I made my chocie. I am happy with my choice. I have a great life. My future is bright. I am just advising others who are the equivalent of 19 year old me to pursue something different (and please, no law school or political science).

 

[ANCAdoc]

DrHoosier, if something about medicine excites you and you are committed to seeing it through, then I think you will be happy someday with your choice. Never let what is said on this forum deter your dreams.

Yes, students and residents sacrifice alot (namely time), go into insane amounts of debt, and have a sleep deficit. You hear about all of this. You hear us complain about the system. All the paperwork, the endless testing, the ancillary staff, insurance companies dictating patient care, etc. For some, perhaps posting these things are one way of coping with a stressful life. Knowing all of this going in works to your favor. I bet you will cope better because you expect all of this. I complain alot about today's medical education system but should I have a chance to "do it all again", I'd be in the same place. Sure, I have tough days, but I have days where I feel like a million dollars.

Having said that, if you are interested in medicine for the secondary items like money, prestige, etc then I think you may be disappointed. Nursing, PA, speech pathology, PT/OT are other great medical fields that pay well, have great benefits, and give you more free time.

Sounds soft, but follow your dreams. Every road is hard.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Not much issue with debt given the school I go to... but here's my take.

Pre-meds are fairly ignorant about many things... honestly, it is hard to know what you are getting yourself into without shadowing a physician in the community. I would recommend shadowing someone in clinic and in the hospital to get a feel for the daily schedule. You could also volunteer at hospice, become an EMT, or something like that to get some direct patient contact and see if that feels satisfying.

I would not be deterred by an internet message board... college is a time to figure out what you want to do in life... you are not going to be completely sure but you have to make a guess. The key is actually seeing how medicine works if you are interested in it... NOT reading message boards.

For me, I am going into the internal medicine match, and I am really excited about becoming an internist. Patients and bureaucracy are not fun to deal with at all times, but neither is the standard Joe Blow office desk job. If you keep a positive attitude in life, it will take you far. Really, many people are not satisfied with their job secondary to poor attitude... it's not just isolated to medicine. You also have to consider a good portion of people went to medical school for family expectations or power, the promise of money, sex, whatever else... the thing is I am the same person that I was in college... not much has changed except I found something I truly enjoy. Many people concentrate on money (you even mention "decent pay")... ignore money and do what you enjoy... you are the best at what you enjoy. If you have alot of debt, then worrying about decent pay does come to the forefront somewhat. But being in debt and being happy vs. being in minimal debt and being miserable are two things you have to consider... I would rather be in debt than to be miserable... at least you can pay off debt. Misery just buys you more and more company... I guess like all the negative folks on this board.

Bottom line
1. Explore medicine and stop reading ridiculous pre-med and negative threads (every job has people in it that complain)
2. Try to find out what you enjoy and then do it (easier said than done).

Best wishes in your travels throughout life.

If I were to reply to the OP, it would basically be this post.

I would just add that people on message boards are universally cranky; it's why they're there usually(to vent). The normal people who enjoy their lives are spending time with friends/family/pets/books/video games/etc etc.

 

[medicinesux]

If I were to reply to the OP, it would basically be this post.

I would just add that people on message boards are universally cranky; it's why they're there usually(to vent). The normal people who enjoy their lives are spending time with friends/family/pets/books/video games/etc etc.

than what are you doing here?

 

[triscuit]

As someone who recently posted about my thoughts of leaving medicine, I just want to add my 0.02.

I don't think the people on this forum are particularly negative. I think it's hard to express frustrations with medicine in real life. My friends and family quickly dismiss my concerns that I'm not happy with medicine - I get the whole "but this is what you always wanted to do! and why would you leave such a stable profession?". And it is generally not acceptable to go to work and talk about all the things you don't like about medicine. One comment and people will start to question your dedication.

That said, I certainly would not base any life decisions on things you read here. But I think it is good to read it, and get an idea of what people who are 'in it' really think. Because the one thing you will get here, that you don't always get in real life, is unfiltered honesty. I wish as a pre-med I knew about this forum...although I'm pretty sure the negativity wouldn't have deterred me from applying to med school

Also, you should keep in mind that some of us who complain about not liking medicine, feeling like it's not worth it, etc, are really only speaking for ourselves. I'm personally less than thrilled with my career choice...but I still think medicine is a great field for those who are passionate about it. Sometimes I will work with an attending or resident who truly enjoys their work and will go to any length to help their patients...I'm always inspired by these folk - their passion is almost contagious...*almost* but at the end of the day, I don't think I am one of those. But I would never discourage anyone who is truly excited about medicine (and has done their research into the field) from going into it, because I KNOW there are people that love it. You might be that person...or you might not be.

Bottom line is that everyone, at some point, picks a career based on a feeling or gut instinct or advice or some interesting class they took in college. Lots of people don't like their first choice, and end up switching or modifying their careers. Not usually a big deal, but with 7+ years of education/training after college, and all the debt, it becomes a bigger deal when you decide, close to your 30's that you want to switch. But medicine is a broad field - so I would say the overwhelming majority of people that go through med school end up finding a niche. Could you be a little happier doing something else? Could you have made a bit more money? These are all moot questions, because there is no way to know how you would have felt on the other side (where the grass is greener).

So I guess my point is, at some point you have to bite the bullet and decide what you want to do, regardless of what others think of the field. Life is a journey, and your fate will not all hinge on whatever decision you make at this time.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

I'm a pre-med, but I'm non-traditional. I've held three full-time, Career (with a capital C) type jobs in my life, and I'll chip in my thoughts. They're mostly pro-medicine (hence my pre-med status).

1) Most jobs have just as much BS as medicine. Whether it's endless meetings where you mainly sit and pretend to listen, or extra time spent explaining your "Long-term career goals" to your boss, many jobs have just as many boring, inane activities to complete as filling out insurance paperwork and charting/dictating. Unless you open your own small business, you'll likely be stuck with some of this everywhere you work.

2) The entire idea of "wasting your 20s" is largely a fallacy. I believe that some people who went directly from college to medicine envision their 20s and their first job as this great time when you essentially continue the party lifestyle led in college. Many for some people this is true. But for most, it simply doesn't happen. Everyone settles down somewhat after college and there are many fewer parties and hanging out. Soon people are having babies and hanging out even less. It's sad, but that's just life. I actually think med school helps prolong the partying because you're still in school for another couple of years. You work hard, but you can play hard too, if desired.

Plus, most Career jobs require you to work more than your strict 40 hours if you want to get ahead. Expect 50+ hour weeks indefinitely if you ever want to be promoted to VP of whatever. Americans see your value in a job by how much time you're there. No President of any company (self-employed or not) works his/her 40 hours and goes home. It just doesn't happen. On the plus side for medicine, once you're a full attending with a few years under your belt, you have more flexibility in terms of working a schedule you desire. If you choose your specialty and practice environment well, you have pretty large control over your schedule. This is pretty rare in the corporate world. No VP of anything is working 3/4 time to spend extra time hanging out with his/her family.

3) There are rude/egotistical people everywhere. Sadly, medicine does seem to garner a larger than normal amount. I think this is because everyone in medicine is quite intelligent, and many people have an inflated sense of self because of it. But, I've been yelled at by people in several of my other Career jobs. There are people who suck in every walk of life, and you can only control your actions & reactions, not anyone else's.

4) It's harder to switch careers than many people in medicine believe. I have a Master's degree in statistics. I worked as a statistician for 1 year before doing my post-bac work. I started looking for a job this past spring. I got literally no response from about 50 applications for research assistant positions and no response from dozens of misc. applications. I eventually got a 3-month contract to be a Production Assistant. The pay was less than 1/3 what I had been making as a statistician. A statistician position came along in the city I was tied to, and boom. I'm a statistician again for this year. First, yeah, it's a terrible time to be job hunting, so that's holding me back. But, you're much more strongly tied to what you got your education in and what your experience is in than some medical people give credit to. Switching Careers has a huge transition cost associated with it that most people with a family can't sustain. Further, there's no way to get any sort of engineering job, business job, etc. without getting more education in the form of a BS or MBA degree. It just doesn't happen. No one's going to hire you without proof that you know what you're doing. The job market is less flexible than some people believe unless you're willing to go back and train more.

So, for me, I'm going into medicine with my eyes wide open. I've shadowed a bunch (both academic and community docs) and done a good bit of health-related volunteering. I'm going into medicine expecting there to be some of the same downsides as most jobs. But, for me, it will beat sitting at a desk for 8-9 hours a day and fiddling with data on my computer. It also beats any other option I've come across as a realistic (for me) job opportunity. Would I enjoy being a professional photographer or writer and making millions? Sure, probably, but that doesn't happen for many people. It would probably never happen for me. Medicine can and is a decent 2nd place.

 

[josh's dad]

There's a lot of good advice in this thread; if you decide to pursue medicine as a profession (and I use the term profession deliberately - a career implies a narrower focus, a profession is about who you are, not just what you do for a job) then make sure you shadow/volunteer/work in healthcare etc. enough to know what you're getting into.

I'm a brand new attending (just completed residency in June) and I truly enjoy most of every day in the hospital. Medicine is not a good way to get rich, not a good way to get a lot of free time, but it is tremendously rewarding to be a part of patients and their families lives at some of their most vulnerable and frightening times.

Granted, I'm a pediatrician who works in a great hospital with very dedicated colleagues so I'm not in a malignant setting (and there are some pretty malignant settings out there) but I do believe that if you look carefully you can find residencies (and post-residency positions) that allow you to maintain the sense of idealism and desire to help people that first motivates you to a career in medicine.

Sure, reading my old med school application essays make me blush a little for some of the naiveté expressed but I still believe most of it!

 

[Coastie]

50+ hour weeks with weekends off would be a dream.

Wasting of one's 20's is very real, and when you enter medical school, you'll see why. I guess for you it will be wasting of the..30's? 40's?

Medicine is still worth it, only in a few specialties...Otherwise, the cost:benefit ratio just doesn't exist.

The stress of medicine both in the workplace and pace of work is not matched in many other fields.

I'm a pre-med, but I'm non-traditional. I've held three full-time, Career (with a capital C) type jobs in my life, and I'll chip in my thoughts. They're mostly pro-medicine (hence my pre-med status).

1) Most jobs have just as much BS as medicine. Whether it's endless meetings where you mainly sit and pretend to listen, or extra time spent explaining your "Long-term career goals" to your boss, many jobs have just as many boring, inane activities to complete as filling out insurance paperwork and charting/dictating. Unless you open your own small business, you'll likely be stuck with some of this everywhere you work.

2) The entire idea of "wasting your 20s" is largely a fallacy. I believe that some people who went directly from college to medicine envision their 20s and their first job as this great time when you essentially continue the party lifestyle led in college. Many for some people this is true. But for most, it simply doesn't happen. Everyone settles down somewhat after college and there are many fewer parties and hanging out. Soon people are having babies and hanging out even less. It's sad, but that's just life. I actually think med school helps prolong the partying because you're still in school for another couple of years. You work hard, but you can play hard too, if desired.

Plus, most Career jobs require you to work more than your strict 40 hours if you want to get ahead. Expect 50+ hour weeks indefinitely if you ever want to be promoted to VP of whatever. Americans see your value in a job by how much time you're there. No President of any company (self-employed or not) works his/her 40 hours and goes home. It just doesn't happen. On the plus side for medicine, once you're a full attending with a few years under your belt, you have more flexibility in terms of working a schedule you desire. If you choose your specialty and practice environment well, you have pretty large control over your schedule. This is pretty rare in the corporate world. No VP of anything is working 3/4 time to spend extra time hanging out with his/her family.

3) There are rude/egotistical people everywhere. Sadly, medicine does seem to garner a larger than normal amount. I think this is because everyone in medicine is quite intelligent, and many people have an inflated sense of self because of it. But, I've been yelled at by people in several of my other Career jobs. There are people who suck in every walk of life, and you can only control your actions & reactions, not anyone else's.

4) It's harder to switch careers than many people in medicine believe. I have a Master's degree in statistics. I worked as a statistician for 1 year before doing my post-bac work. I started looking for a job this past spring. I got literally no response from about 50 applications for research assistant positions and no response from dozens of misc. applications. I eventually got a 3-month contract to be a Production Assistant. The pay was less than 1/3 what I had been making as a statistician. A statistician position came along in the city I was tied to, and boom. I'm a statistician again for this year. First, yeah, it's a terrible time to be job hunting, so that's holding me back. But, you're much more strongly tied to what you got your education in and what your experience is in than some medical people give credit to. Switching Careers has a huge transition cost associated with it that most people with a family can't sustain. Further, there's no way to get any sort of engineering job, business job, etc. without getting more education in the form of a BS or MBA degree. It just doesn't happen. No one's going to hire you without proof that you know what you're doing. The job market is less flexible than some people believe unless you're willing to go back and train more.

So, for me, I'm going into medicine with my eyes wide open. I've shadowed a bunch (both academic and community docs) and done a good bit of health-related volunteering. I'm going into medicine expecting there to be some of the same downsides as most jobs. But, for me, it will beat sitting at a desk for 8-9 hours a day and fiddling with data on my computer. It also beats any other option I've come across as a realistic (for me) job opportunity. Would I enjoy being a professional photographer or writer and making millions? Sure, probably, but that doesn't happen for many people. It would probably never happen for me. Medicine can and is a decent 2nd place.

 

[Dr Oops]

Im in med school and my friends are working right now and I can tell you they have a great time. Yea, none of them really likes their job but they get nites and weekends off. They have money to spend at the bars get new cars etc. Some of them get to travel alot for their jobs. Im sitting in the library procrastinating on a saturday nite.

I look at everything Ive done in medschool so far and its really great stuff. Unfortunately, its such a rat race that you end up not enjoying it.

I'm a pre-med, but I'm non-traditional. I've held three full-time, Career (with a capital C) type jobs in my life, and I'll chip in my thoughts. They're mostly pro-medicine (hence my pre-med status).

1) Most jobs have just as much BS as medicine. Whether it's endless meetings where you mainly sit and pretend to listen, or extra time spent explaining your "Long-term career goals" to your boss, many jobs have just as many boring, inane activities to complete as filling out insurance paperwork and charting/dictating. Unless you open your own small business, you'll likely be stuck with some of this everywhere you work.

2) The entire idea of "wasting your 20s" is largely a fallacy. I believe that some people who went directly from college to medicine envision their 20s and their first job as this great time when you essentially continue the party lifestyle led in college. Many for some people this is true. But for most, it simply doesn't happen. Everyone settles down somewhat after college and there are many fewer parties and hanging out. Soon people are having babies and hanging out even less. It's sad, but that's just life. I actually think med school helps prolong the partying because you're still in school for another couple of years. You work hard, but you can play hard too, if desired.

Plus, most Career jobs require you to work more than your strict 40 hours if you want to get ahead. Expect 50+ hour weeks indefinitely if you ever want to be promoted to VP of whatever. Americans see your value in a job by how much time you're there. No President of any company (self-employed or not) works his/her 40 hours and goes home. It just doesn't happen. On the plus side for medicine, once you're a full attending with a few years under your belt, you have more flexibility in terms of working a schedule you desire. If you choose your specialty and practice environment well, you have pretty large control over your schedule. This is pretty rare in the corporate world. No VP of anything is working 3/4 time to spend extra time hanging out with his/her family.

3) There are rude/egotistical people everywhere. Sadly, medicine does seem to garner a larger than normal amount. I think this is because everyone in medicine is quite intelligent, and many people have an inflated sense of self because of it. But, I've been yelled at by people in several of my other Career jobs. There are people who suck in every walk of life, and you can only control your actions & reactions, not anyone else's.

4) It's harder to switch careers than many people in medicine believe. I have a Master's degree in statistics. I worked as a statistician for 1 year before doing my post-bac work. I started looking for a job this past spring. I got literally no response from about 50 applications for research assistant positions and no response from dozens of misc. applications. I eventually got a 3-month contract to be a Production Assistant. The pay was less than 1/3 what I had been making as a statistician. A statistician position came along in the city I was tied to, and boom. I'm a statistician again for this year. First, yeah, it's a terrible time to be job hunting, so that's holding me back. But, you're much more strongly tied to what you got your education in and what your experience is in than some medical people give credit to. Switching Careers has a huge transition cost associated with it that most people with a family can't sustain. Further, there's no way to get any sort of engineering job, business job, etc. without getting more education in the form of a BS or MBA degree. It just doesn't happen. No one's going to hire you without proof that you know what you're doing. The job market is less flexible than some people believe unless you're willing to go back and train more.

So, for me, I'm going into medicine with my eyes wide open. I've shadowed a bunch (both academic and community docs) and done a good bit of health-related volunteering. I'm going into medicine expecting there to be some of the same downsides as most jobs. But, for me, it will beat sitting at a desk for 8-9 hours a day and fiddling with data on my computer. It also beats any other option I've come across as a realistic (for me) job opportunity. Would I enjoy being a professional photographer or writer and making millions? Sure, probably, but that doesn't happen for many people. It would probably never happen for me. Medicine can and is a decent 2nd place.

 

[physicsnerd42]

Where, exactly, is everyone going to med school that they think their life stops? It's not like you enter med school and every social interaction automatically stops (unless you work far too hard and don't take care of yourself). Many of my friends in their 20s are unemployed or at crappy jobs. Some of my friends with jobs work just as hard as I do. I look at what I'm doing as a more fun alternative to being out in a crappy job market (and I really enjoy the work I'm doing right now and what I've done in med school). I still have time to go out with friends. Heck, I've even had time to get engaged. At least in the first two years, medical school is not this soul-sucking experience that precludes your from having a life. Based on how much I see my former classmates who are now fourth years, years three and four don't seem that bad either.

If you're worried about money (and if you like research), do an MD/PhD. That way you can double the length of med school, solve cool problems, and see yourself as a low-paid employee instead of as just a student going into debt. It also gives you more options if you decide to bail on medicine in the future.

Yeah, the medical system sucks and the practice of medicine may not be the lucrative fairy tale that pre-meds tell themselves, but I'm still looking forward to becoming a physician. You just need to adjust your expectations.

 

[josh's dad]

If you're trying to figure out a cost/benefit ratio or your idea of not wasting your 20s is a great job with free time, then I agree there are better paths for you than medicine. Today's reimbursement structure and the high cost of medical school make going into medicine a poor investment...

but if you want to invest your time in service to others it's hard to beat the opportunities and job and geographic flexibility that being a physician offers.

 

[ReadyFreddy]

One request to all those out there: please don't consider an MD/PhD path as a way to get through med school cheaply. Yes, you won't have fiscal debt, but you pay with your blood, sweat and tears.

Now, I don't mean to say that this path is a bad choice, in the least, but science and grad school taxes you in ways that med school won't. If you can't imagine yourself *not* being a physician-scientist, then that is a fabulous way to go. If you just want to work solely in the lab or solely in the clinic afterwards, please just pick the one path. It's hard to know, of course, what you'll go through and where you'll fit until you try both paths out. But, one thing is for certain: MD/PhD programs do *not* save you money.

Consider that the goal of the most MD/PhD programs is to have their graduates go into academic medicine -- which pays significantly less than private practice. Consider also the extra 3-6 years you'll put in before you even start a residency, let alone a "real job," and calculate that lost income. If you go straight through med school, you can conceivably pay off your debts before your MD/PhD colleague makes associate professor.

I really don't want to dissuade anyone from pursuing an combined degree if they truly want to. It is a fabulous way to go, you'll have a fantastic array of skills, and you will be poised to contribute a lot to both fields. I have the utmost respect for those who are able to stick it out. However, DO NOT start on that path if you're just looking for a way to be debt free. You will regret it. As has been said thousands of times on these forums, pursue what you enjoy - not the elusive dollar or social status.

 

[physicsnerd42]

One request to all those out there: please don't consider an MD/PhD path as a way to get through med school cheaply. Yes, you won't have fiscal debt, but you pay with your blood, sweat and tears.

Now, I don't mean to say that this path is a bad choice, in the least, but science and grad school taxes you in ways that med school won't. If you can't imagine yourself *not* being a physician-scientist, then that is a fabulous way to go. If you just want to work solely in the lab or solely in the clinic afterwards, please just pick the one path. It's hard to know, of course, what you'll go through and where you'll fit until you try both paths out. But, one thing is for certain: MD/PhD programs do *not* save you money.

Consider that the goal of the most MD/PhD programs is to have their graduates go into academic medicine -- which pays significantly less than private practice. Consider also the extra 3-6 years you'll put in before you even start a residency, let alone a "real job," and calculate that lost income. If you go straight through med school, you can conceivably pay off your debts before your MD/PhD colleague makes associate professor.

I really don't want to dissuade anyone from pursuing an combined degree if they truly want to. It is a fabulous way to go, you'll have a fantastic array of skills, and you will be poised to contribute a lot to both fields. I have the utmost respect for those who are able to stick it out. However, DO NOT start on that path if you're just looking for a way to be debt free. You will regret it. As has been said thousands of times on these forums, pursue what you enjoy - not the elusive dollar or social status.

Sorry, you're absolutely correct and I should have made this more clear. The MD/PhD is a really dumb choice if you're worried about cash (the opportunity cost for those extra four years of physician income you'll lose is FAR more than you'll save by not paying tuition). But, if you're like me and love research and really enjoy clinical work, it's not a bad idea.

Also, keep in mind the old joke: "What's the quickest way to decrease your salary as a physician? Add Ph.D. to your name."

 

[josephf1]

Im a career changer, made 80K in my old computer job, no respect from chicks in bars at all when I said what I did. Now worst case if I dont get a fellowship Ill be a hospitalist making 200K working 6 months a year and can work extra and make anotehr 50K or so. sure beats 80K. Plus women in bars love the MD thing, the greates aphridesiac known to man my best friend says, not to mention occasionally hot nurses and other very horny med students/residents, allthough even less likley too be hot. My final analysis, still worth it compared to almost all other jobs and still great for socail life.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

I read both your posts, and I've read other like it here at SDN, and I've even spoken with residents who felt the same way and said the same things. After all that, I'm not too concerned. You'll probably read the rest of this post, and continue to believe I'm a naive pre-med. That's your call. The next 8ish years will tell. I'd be interested to know if you both went straight into med school, or if you took a year or several off in between college and med school.

50+ hour weeks with weekends off would be a dream.

Here's the thing, working 50+ hours means you don't always get your weekends off. I have a friend who was an associate lawyer in a pretty small law firm. It would be Friday afternoon, almost ready to go, when a partner would walk into her office and tell her she had to be prepared on Monday when a case was heard. 20 hours of work, boom, like that. Weekend gone.

Wasting of one's 20's is very real, and when you enter medical school, you'll see why. I guess for you it will be wasting of the..30's? 40's?

I guess it depends on what you mean by wasting. Personally, I've spoken with plenty of 4th year med students who have enjoyed their time in med school. Few interns enjoy their intern year definitely, but I think I can push through the first two to three years of residency. We'll see. However, I don't ever plan to squander entire years of my life, let alone decades. I feel bad for you if you truly believe the entire decade of your 20s was a waste of time. What awesome things were you unable to do because of med school?

Medicine is still worth it, only in a few specialties...Otherwise, the cost:benefit ratio just doesn't exist.

The stress of medicine both in the workplace and pace of work is not matched in many other fields.

Im in med school and my friends are working right now and I can tell you they have a great time. Yea, none of them really likes their job but they get nites and weekends off. They have money to spend at the bars get new cars etc. Some of them get to travel alot for their jobs. Im sitting in the library procrastinating on a saturday nite.

I think we just have different priorities. Even with sufficient funds, I doubt I'd be at clubs ordering drinks till late. I wouldn't buy a new car because they depreciate too quickly. So, yeah, med school is going to be hard if you're interested in some of those things and your friends have them. Most of my friends are in grad schools of various types, saved some money to buy a small house, or aren't into that stuff anyhow. So, a med school budget won't really stand out.

Second, I really don't think all med students have to study on Saturday nights. Maybe before a big exam, yeah, it's crucial to put in extra time. But overall, I'm aiming to treat med school like a demanding job. Lots of disciplined time, but take time out for the other things that are important to me.

I look at everything Ive done in medschool so far and its really great stuff. Unfortunately, its such a rat race that you end up not enjoying it.

Just curious, but what specialty(-ies) are you interested in? Are you hoping to do something pretty competitive, and thus you have to get great grades? Just curious. Most med students I've talked to have said that med school is lower stress than pre-med because it's mostly pass/fail in the first two years so you don't have to gun for the perfect score.

 

[Dr Oops]

I think we just have different priorities. Even with sufficient funds, I doubt I'd be at clubs ordering drinks till late. I wouldn't buy a new car because they depreciate too quickly. So, yeah, med school is going to be hard if you're interested in some of those things and your friends have them. Most of my friends are in grad schools of various types, saved some money to buy a small house, or aren't into that stuff anyhow. So, a med school budget won't really stand out.

Second, I really don't think all med students have to study on Saturday nights. Maybe before a big exam, yeah, it's crucial to put in extra time. But overall, I'm aiming to treat med school like a demanding job. Lots of disciplined time, but take time out for the other things that are important to me.

Just curious, but what specialty(-ies) are you interested in? Are you hoping to do something pretty competitive, and thus you have to get great grades? Just curious. Most med students I've talked to have said that med school is lower stress than pre-med because it's mostly pass/fail in the first two years so you don't have to gun for the perfect score.

Perhaps we do have different priorities although those arent mine i was just using them as an example and as a non trad I figured those kinds of things would be important for you (not the bars one but car, house, family stuff etc.).

The biggest thing is the amount of free time i have. Which is basically none, theres lots of things I would want to do but dont get the time for (goto the bars more, play some ultimate frisebee or raquetball and get back into playing the piano).

I dont know what specialties i would be interested in, but i can assure you im not gunning, im happy just passing right now and my school isnt pass fail, althought i dont think that makes a difference with the personalities you deal with in medschool, not saying theyre jerks or anything but they are def competetive.

I probably study a little more than most of my friends because im not being as efficient as I could ( in order to keep my sanity while studying all day), but I wouldnt say significantly more than everyone else.

I had more of a pessimistic view of how my life would be when entering medschool and I was still shocked by how much it takes over your life.

My friends who had your sentiment going in, just thought people like myself and others complainning on SDN were just complaining for the sake of it (after all people do like to complain especially on the internet). But they now realize those people had alotta truth to what they were saying.

I really do enjoy the stuff im learning but its like trying to eat a 32 oz steak in 10 seconds flat. If you could take your time and enjoy the steak it would taste alot better, but you cant do that and it just becomes a chore instead of a nice meal.

As for medschool being seen as a demanding job, well. Its gonna be more hours than your average 9-5 especially if you goto lecture. I used to look forward to weekends because it was a time to relax, be social, etc. Now I look forward to them cuz I can actually attempt to catch up.

Nobody will be able to talk you out of it, I had put a good deal of effort and time to get into medschool that people probably wouldnt have been able to talk me out of it. I am also not trying to talk you out of it, you may have a totally different experience than me, those are just my feelings on the matter.

Good luck.

 

[finished]

If there's something else you know you'd love and feel passionate about, I'd do that something else instead of medical school.
My experience was a lot different than most other med students, but I can't be the only med student to get sick: I became ill (with an extremely rare, undiagnosed neurological condition) while in school and really, really struggled to finish. I was repeatedly misdiagnosed with depression/anxiety. I did get my MD but felt too fatigued to apply into residency (plus I'm not a strong candidate due to the struggling- it took 7 embarassing years to finish- not my plan when I started med school).
My illness is autoimmune and I strongly believe was triggered and aggravated by the stress of premed and med school. So, for me, I'm not so sure all the stress was really worth it. Looking back, I can see how repeatedly pushing my mind and body to perform in school over time destroyed my health. Life needs to be a balance, and for me, looking back, the stress is simply not worth it. I have friends, former classmates, and relatives who keep suggesting that I apply into residency, but right now the thought of it scares me and I won't pursue it unless I know I can handle it and it won't make me sicker.
I'm now trying to pick up the pieces and am figuring out how to work from home. I've learned the hard way to be careful about not selecting anything too stressful (my illness relapses with stress). I like writing and artwork and am starting from there. Due to my experience as a patient, I feel passionate about helping people who have rare and/or undiagnosed diseases, but I'm not sure I want to be their doctor. Looking back, I probably should have been a special ed teacher. Not that it's not a stressful job, but I don't think anything comes close to the stress of medicine.
My advice is to pick something you enjoy and feel happy doing and that lets you have a life.
One thing to remember is that when you spend so much time in school, you are not earning social security credits, so if you get sick and need to go on disability, it won't be there for you. I used to be able to hike up to 12 miles and barely feel it, so I never imagined this could happen to me.
If I had kids, I would strongly encourage some kind of trade school for them. If you absolutely love the medical field and can't live without it, consider nursing, PA school, pharmacy school, or optometry. The hours are more regular. Science teacher is another good option.

Best Wishes in your career path.

 

[dragonfly99]

I'm afraid I agree with much of what Droops says.
I personally found medical school to be more stressful even than residency,with 3rd year being worse than my intern year, and 2nd year being pretty bad and 1st semester of 1st year also being pretty damned bad. And residency was no picnic either, but what made it somewhat better was being paid to slave away. I do like medicine, for the record...actually love medicine. But it does take over more of my life than I'd find ideal, and I honestly don't think that's all due to my personality characteristics...if you get in you'll have to do what you have to do to pass and get a decent evaluation, and it's definitely much harder than undergrad for the vast majority of the time. And residency is sort of like being a student and employee at the same time, so you have sort of a dual stress thing going on .

Alternatives to medicine would be things like physical therapy and optometry and pharmacy and audiology (still medical field but better hours and less stressful school I would definitley think). If I had done a nonmedical job it probably would have been a master's degree in some field of biology and/or teaching high school or college biology. Every job has its stress I am sure, but with medicine you have to worry about not killing people at work (at least if you do something like internal medicine, surgical fields, pediatrics, to some extent radiology, opthalmology you could blind someone by bad surgery, etc.). That, and the horrible hours during parts of residency and medical school, coupled with massive debt, does make life stressful at times. Still, you should take what is on internet message boards with a grain of salt...this is where people come to vent.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

However, I don't ever plan to squander entire years of my life, let alone decades. I feel bad for you if you truly believe the entire decade of your 20s was a waste of time. What awesome things were you unable to do because of med school?

So, yeah, med school is going to be hard if you're interested in some of those things and your friends have them. Most of my friends are in grad schools of various types, saved some money to buy a small house, or aren't into that stuff anyhow. So, a med school budget won't really stand out.

Second, I really don't think all med students have to study on Saturday nights. Maybe before a big exam, yeah, it's crucial to put in extra time. But overall, I'm aiming to treat med school like a demanding job. Lots of disciplined time, but take time out for the other things that are important to me.

1) I wouldn't call it a "waste" of your 20s, but it definitely crimps your style a little bit. For instance, I like to travel, and medical school and residency is not great for that. I've done some here and there, but definitely not as much as if I'd had a job and a little more time flexibility. Then by the time residency is over I'll most likely have a kid/kids, so it'll be another 20 years by the time the wife and I will be able to take trips on our own again.

2) The money's not all that big of a deal, as I'm living pretty comfortably on loans (of course I don't have a huge amount of expenses and I'm not racking up huge debt in the process, thank you state school). That said, it does make me a little jealous that my friends can have houses and savings accounts and cars and take trips, etc. Even my friends who went to law school are getting out and making money now.

3) No, you don't have to study every weekend. And yes, it's crucial (and not impossible) to spend time on other important things. That said, a decent part of third year and the beginning of fourth year is not very job-like; weird and long hours, lots of studying, never doing anything right, and living from evaluation to evaluation. I can sympathize with Dragonfly; having been through third year, I am much more excited to become an intern now despite the trepidation about actually becoming a doctor.