Dartmouth vs. Pittsburgh

[skypilot]

DMS is known for training its students very well (something Gleevec has admitted to knowning nothing about). I'm sure Pitt is too, but I wouldn't say one trains better than the other just because the hospital system is bigger. Researching the school I know DMS is well known for its well trained students, so I stand by my claim

Yup, being one of only 50 students at a big academic medical center (Dartmouth) means you are going to get lots of attention and experience in your third and fourth years. And you will be superbly trained. All doors to residency and careers in academia will be open, not closed.

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[Mr. Rosewater]

I'm not talking about the clinical prowess of the UPMC compared to the DHMC. I'd never be stupid enough to argue that, I know UPMC is bigger and better.

I'm talking about the clinical education each school provides. (Notice Gleevec said "Pitt is a more regarded school" not "Pitt has a more regarded hospital system") DMS is known for training its students very well (something Gleevec has admitted to knowning nothing about). I'm sure Pitt is too, but I wouldn't say one trains better than the other just because the hospital system is bigger. Researching the school I know DMS is well known for its well trained students, so I stand by my claim

ok, it still seems hard for me to understand how to make that distinction w/o looking to the affiliated hospitals. for instance, if someone said the clinical education @ mayo or the cleveland clinic is better than pitt, i'd be hard pressed to argue w/ them. anyway, i don't wanna belabor this w/ you. you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.

 

[DMBUGA34]

ok, it still seems hard for me to understand how to make that distinction w/o looking to the affiliated hospitals. for instance, if someone said the clinical education @ mayo or the cleveland clinic is better than pitt, i'd be hard pressed to argue w/ them. anyway, i don't wanna belabor this w/ you. you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.

Using your example, the way I look at it is that residency training could be better at Mayo and the Cleveland Clinic, but that's independent of clinical education. From what I understand, clinical education in med school depends largely on how much they let you see and do, and I think that small schools like Mayo and DMS have an advantage in that students get plenty of personal attention for training and research opportunties since there are so few them.

BTW, DHMC is also the only tertiary care center north of Boston and it's staffed with top notch faculty attracted there by the facilities (DHMC is the newest, and probably most unique, academic hospital) and the location (beautiful area that attracts many researchers with families). It's been belittled and I don't want people coming away with the wrong impression...

 

[elias514]

Dartmouth is an excellent medical school. I interviewed there last year. Hanover is one of the most beautiful places I've ever visited, and I've been overseas many times. So I believe the statement that the location attracts top-notch faculty; I can't think of a better place to raise a family. The crime in Hanover is virtually nonexistent and the landscape is absolutely gorgeous--lots of enormous trees and hills. When I visited, the trees were at peak foliage, and so the hills were covered with patches of orange, red, yellow, pink, and green. It's so serene out there, just perfect for the outdoorsy type. The school itself is great, primarily because the class size is so small, which means that students get a lot of 1-on-1 interaction with faculty, and the facilities are really nice (the "Hitch" is an excellent hospital).

You have to go where you'll be happy. Don't go to Pitt just because of a reputational difference (that doesn't exist) or the ranking of the hospital system. Where do you want to live for the next four years of your life--Hanover or Pittsburgh?

 

[JapaneseMan]

Here is the FULL Pitt matchlist, including primary care and other specialities

http://www.medschool.pitt.edu/studentaffairs/newsletters/Match.2004.pdf

 

[TheRussian]

What I learned from that match list is that if you want to do residency in Pitt then Pitt is a great school. Otherwise, there is no real advantage in going to Pitt over DMS. In fact I believe that there were about as many matches in the Boston area from Pitt as from DMS except that at DMS there were a lot fewer people applying so it would make it seem that getting a Boston residency would be easier from DMS than Pitt. Then again this could be due to the fact that more people at DMS are from new england and want to stay there. Who knows.

 

[Heal&Teach]

to TheRussian

Again, where is the OP? And has she made a decision yet?

 

[DMBUGA34]

What I learned from that match list is that if you want to do residency in Pitt then Pitt is a great school. Otherwise, there is no real advantage in going to Pitt over DMS.

That's all I've been trying to say...

 

[meanderson]

A lot of these arguments aren't particularly relevant for most medical students. When considering reputations, a question I like to ask- "is virtually everyone at the school getting a superstar residency"? Very few schools fall into this category. Neither DMS nor Pitt do. Looking at pitt's matchlist the last few years it isn't even clear that they match better than DMS. Not that there is anything wrong with that though. Good students who are interested in getting into competitive residencies have a great chance of doing so from either school(as really all allopathic US students do).

How varied and diverse the clinical opportunities are wouldn't be a huge concern for me. During your three months of medicine third year, it's going to be most important to get the basic algorithims down for hypertension, diabetes, etc. You're clinical responsibilities are pretty limited as a third year, so it's not that important how many zebra's come in throug medicine or how many developmental procedures are done in surgery or IR. We aren't going to be playing a big role in these anyway.

If you want to see such things just for kicks, do an away rotation or two.

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

What I learned from that match list is that if you want to do residency in Pitt then Pitt is a great school. Otherwise, there is no real advantage in going to Pitt over DMS. In fact I believe that there were about as many matches in the Boston area from Pitt as from DMS except that at DMS there were a lot fewer people applying so it would make it seem that getting a Boston residency would be easier from DMS than Pitt. Then again this could be due to the fact that more people at DMS are from new england and want to stay there. Who knows.

except, UPMC is a honor roll hospital, so it is a sought after match. i'm sure that a lot of pitt students wanted to stay w/ their mentors/friends etc.

however, by your logic, if you take out the matches @ dartmouth, then dartmouth only matched TWO students in competitive specialties (ortho @ gw, and neurosurg @ psu). not exactly staggering.

for comparison, pitt had 11, not counting the numerous comp. matches @ UPMC.

in case you're wondering, i'm looking at ortho, optho, ent, derm, plastics, neurosurg.

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

Using your example, the way I look at it is that residency training could be better at Mayo and the Cleveland Clinic, but that's independent of clinical education. From what I understand, clinical education in med school depends largely on how much they let you see and do, and I think that small schools like Mayo and DMS have an advantage in that students get plenty of personal attention for training and research opportunties since there are so few them.

BTW, DHMC is also the only tertiary care center north of Boston and it's staffed with top notch faculty attracted there by the facilities (DHMC is the newest, and probably most unique, academic hospital) and the location (beautiful area that attracts many researchers with families). It's been belittled and I don't want people coming away with the wrong impression...

for this arguement to be valid, you'de have to compare the affiliated number of clinicians at each place. if pitts class is 2.5X bigger than DMS, but UPMC is 4X bigger, than your arguement works against you. i don't have the numbers on either, but your arguement (at leastthe small school part) is invalid w/o them.

 

[DMBUGA34]

however, by your logic, if you take out the matches @ dartmouth, then dartmouth only matched TWO students in competitive specialties (ortho @ gw, and neurosurg @ psu). not exactly staggering.

for comparison, pitt had 11, not counting the numerous comp. matches @ UPMC.

You're comparing a class of 47 to one of over 150. Like I said before I posted the DMS match list, nobody was interested in Derm and the only person interested in optho stayed to do research. It reflects interest, not inability. Last year's DMS class had 9 such matches outside of DMS hospitals, likely because it was a bigger graduating class (around 60)

If you really want to use some sort of specialty arguement, then one could say that Tufts matched better than Pitt because they all specialized. And I'm sure you'd never agree that Tufts is a better school

 

[DMBUGA34]

If you want to see such things just for kicks, do an away rotation or two.

Yea, that's why DMS requires at least 1 away rotation

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

You're comparing a class of 47 to one of over 150. Like I said before I posted the DMS match list, nobody was interested in Derm and the only person interested in optho stayed to do research. It reflects interest, not inability. Last year's DMS class had 9 such matches outside of DMS hospitals, likely because it was a bigger graduating class (around 60)

If you really want to use some sort of specialty arguement, then one could say that Tufts matched better than Pitt because they all specialized. And I'm sure you'd never agree that Tufts is a better school

so now you know what everyone was interested in? also, if you get to cherry pick years, can i too?

anyhoo, i'll leave it at this. IMO, pitt has some advantage over dms. if i loved hanover and hated pburgh would it be enough to get me to pitt? No. if everything else was equal, would i pick pitt? yes.

 

[DMBUGA34]

for this arguement to be valid, you'de have to compare the affiliated number of clinicians at each place

I don't have the numbers either, but remember, at any one time, i believe there are less than 45 3rd years rotating at DHMC. Probably even less than that because many are doing away rotations (I think in only groups of 2 or 3) at the VA hospital, clinics and hospitals in NH, Maine, VT, Los Angeles, Miami, Arizona, Hartford, CT, New Zealand, and until just recently, Cooperstown, NY. This doesn't even include those that decided to go to non affiliated hospitals

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

I don't have the numbers either, but remember, at any one time, i believe there are less than 45 3rd years rotating at DHMC. Probably even less than that because many are doing away rotations (I think in only groups of 2 or 3) at the VA hospital, Clinics in NH, Maine, VT, Los Angeles, Miami, Arizona, Hartford, CN, New Zealand, and until just recently, Cooperstown, NY. This doesn't even include those that decided to go to non affiliated hospitals

again, i don't care if there's 5 students. if you don't have the numbers to compare than you don't have an arguement here. be fair.

 

[DMBUGA34]

so now you know what everyone was interested in? also, if you get to cherry pick years, can i too?

anyhoo, i'll leave it at this. IMO, pitt has some advantage over dms. if i loved hanover and hated pburgh would it be enough to get me to pitt? No. if everything else was equal, would i pick pitt? yes.

Yes, a 4th year at DMS (the same one who posted the list) was the one that told us about there being no interest in Derm and the only one interested in ophto is deferring

And no, I'm not cherry picking. You're trying to make an assumption of DMS's matching ability on the smallest class to graduate from there in a while. I brought up last year's list because it shows the interests of a different class and their ability to match very well.

 

[tonyjerry]

im enjoying following this arguement so ill add some fuel even though i know hospital affiliation doesnt necessarily determine education. these facts are according to dhmcs and upmcs webpages:

physicians: upmc 5,000 ; dhmc 900
outpatient visits: upmc 3,000,000 ; dhmc 600,000
inpatient visits (patients discharged): upmc 150,000 ; dhmc 20,000
emergency visitis: upmc 350,000 ; dhmc 24,000
surgeries: upmc 115,000 ; dhmc 14,000

enjoy!

 

[Dr. Chiquita]

Maybe, you guys talked about this already. But it is a clear fact that Pitt gets much more NIH funding than DMS. Don't quote me on this one, but it seems like everybody agrees that DMS gets more NIH funding per PI (meaning your average DMS PI has much more money for you to do research than your average Pitt PI). So IMHO, it is not all about the overall funding for the entire school. Yes, you will have fancy high tech equipments, more resources for general research community, etc. at Pitt. But when it comes down to it, how much money your PI has is alot to do with what you can do and you can't do (This is just based on my experience in a research lab).

I personally think they are both very very excellent schools. Tough choice for the OP. But I really don't think Pitt has any more advantage than DMS in residency placement or quality of your research experience.

Good luck with your decision, SUZY.

 

[musicman1991]

Is this thread still going on LOL.

Another thing to consider is that at least Pitt has all it's own residencies. Dartmouth does not. So if you want to do something competitive at least you have an internal shot at Pitt.

 

[elias514]

Who gives a crap about the NIH funding? The OP isn't an MD/PhD candidate.

 

[DMBUGA34]

im enjoying following this arguement so ill add some fuel even though i know hospital affiliation doesnt necessarily determine education. these facts are according to dhmcs and upmcs webpages:

physicians: upmc 5,000 ; dhmc 900
outpatient visits: upmc 3,000,000 ; dhmc 600,000
inpatient visits (patients discharged): upmc 150,000 ; dhmc 20,000
emergency visitis: upmc 350,000 ; dhmc 24,000
surgeries: upmc 115,000 ; dhmc 14,000

enjoy!

That definitely emphasizes the difference between big city and small town but it says nothing about the clinical faculty/student ratio. The closest I could find was the USNews faculty to student ratio, and Pitt had 3 to 1, DMS had 3.4 to 1 but that included those Dartmouth-Brown students that won't be around for rotations. I still think that the small class at DMS gets much more personal attention than the 150 plus at Pitt. But we can't really prove that. I just go by what I've heard from other docs and students

 

[DMBUGA34]

Is this thread still going on LOL.

Another thing to consider is that at least Pitt has all it's own residencies. Dartmouth does not. So if you want to do something competitive at least you have an internal shot at Pitt.

Where are you coming up with this stuff. Pitt likely has more because it's a larger med center, but DMS has just about everything you could want.....

http://www.dartmouth.edu/dms/ed_programs/gme.shtml

 

[Dr. Chiquita]

Who gives a crap about the NIH funding? The OP isn't an MD/PhD candidate.

Sorry, if my rant about NIH funding was a digression. But reading through the thread, it seemed like, everybody was recommending Pitt over DMS based on the research quality.

 

[elias514]

The OP probably stopped reading this thread...

Applicants place too much emphasis on US News rankings of med schools. The med school ranking is inherently flawed, and it places too much weight on research dollars, which is pretty irrelevant to most med students (with the notable exception of people who plan on intensive research stints, such as MD/PhD students). The residency director scores, which are so cherished by SDNers, have some serious flaws: 1) the response rate from residency directors is consistently abysmal (around 28%) and 2) surveys were only sent to program directors in 3 different specialties (this year it was radiology, surgery, and psychiatry). Last time I checked, there were many other specialties besides radiology, surgery, and psychiatry.

At any rate, the validity (or lack thereof) of the US News rankings has been debated ad nauseam on SDN. I still say that the OP should base his/her decision solely on the happiness factor. Forget the rankings of the hospitals and med schools, it's your life. You probably only live once, you might as well make the next four years of your life as pleasant as possible. An MD is an MD. The degree is prestigious regardless of institutional affiliation.

Good luck on your decision, OP!

 

[BaylorLion]

The voice of reason! Finally!

 

[SUZY79]

...wow, didn't expect so many replies.
i actually ended up choosing pittsburgh. It really did come down to where I wanted to live. pittsburgh isn't the best city, but i couldn't imagine myself living in a place like Hanover, as beautiful as it was. i agree that neither school will give me a particular advantage. both are really nice schools, and hence my difficult decision.
thanks for helping me with my decision, and good luck to everyone!!!!.....

 

[musicman1991]

Pittsburgh is pretty decent. I interviewed for residency and ranked it right below where I ended up matching.

It has 3 major sports team - you will find enough to do. Also it's cheap, which is nice for med students.

Also you will realize how wise a decision you made in a few years. Good luck with school.