DEA Raids Dr. Forest Tennant’s Pain Clinic

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DEA Raids Dr. Forest Tennant’s Pain Clinic

Looks like the DEA is going after Tennant due to overprescribing of opiates and ties to Insys.

Tennant is a joke that believes opioids, vitamins and hormone treatment can heal all pain. Reminds me of the inverse of the Suboxone pimps at PROP who believe Suboxone cures all.

And whats up with this "adhesive arachnoiditis" that everyone has at his clinic? How are they diagnosing this?

Gary Snook seems very confident that he needs to take 100s of MME per day for this "diagnosis" in everyone of Tennant's articles. Unfortunately, poor Gary remains "disabled" with zero gainful employment for years due to his severe pain from this horrible disease and apparently requires 100s of mgs of Morphine per day to survive.
 
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I Would Not Be Alive Without Dr. Tennant

The article is as biased as can be. Presumably written by a patient of Tennant which is exhibiting catastrophising behaviour. Expands on the prior article. Namely, he treats patients with hormones, vitamins, high dose opiates, gets genetic testing. 2 patients in 2 articles both diagnosed with adhesive arachnoiditis both in need of high dose MME.
 
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I Would Not Be Alive Without Dr. Tennant

The article is as biased as can be. Presumably written by a patient of Tennant which is exhibiting catastrophising behaviour. Expands on the prior article. Namely, he treats patients with hormones, vitamins, high dose opiates, gets genetic testing. 2 patients in 2 articles both diagnosed with adhesive arachnoiditis both in need of high dose MME.

Tennant is a fraud who probably makes money off the pharmacy where he filled "2 million of prescriptions for 5 patients" and took 120K in fraudulent "speaking fees" from Insys. The DEA will surely find something on him considering he runs a "mom and pop" place that happens to write ridiculous levels of opioid prescriptions to a local pharmacy for people from all around the country.

He diagnoses everyone with "adhesive arachnoidits" from BS "survey" he gives to his drug addict "patients" that come from all over the country including this guy Gary Snook from Montana that is always quoted in his articles. Funny how these druggies never have any objective studies confirming this pathology though including an MRI and/or EMG/NCS considering how "severe" their disease is that they require literally 100s of MME and are "disabled".

Soon the Suboxone pimps at PROP will follow his model where everyone has an "opioid disorder" and require lifetime Suboxone or at least until the patient's benefits/cash run out whereby they are "cured". Maybe they can get in on the pharmacies for kickbacks on the Suboxone too.
 
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The "Suboxone pimp" line is getting a little old, you should show some evidence or give it a rest.
 
The "Suboxone pimp" line is getting a little old, you should show some evidence or give it a rest.

Suboxone pimp is the same as the opioid pimp.

The opioid pimp says he is "treating pain" while using ridiculous amounts of narcotic medications to get patients to pay in cash or for other motives.

Suboxone pimps take cash to help with "addiction" until they run out of cash without any real concern for Behavorial health or long term outcomes concerning the patient after he leaves from the pimp's nexus after they run out of money.

101N is the one that termed the word pimp, you should thank him for that.
 
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there are significant differences between opioid "pimps" and your supposed suboxone ones.
1. suboxone is significantly safer than almost all the other opioids.
2. the money making for suboxone is just not there. people are not buying it the way they buy other controlled substances (check out streetrx. there are like only 3 price quotes, all in the midwest. i got 17 "hits" for tramadol, and 96 for vicodin), and insurance companies arent paying for it, not in the way you are imaging.
3. DEA is keeping a much closer eye on suboxone providers than they did at the beginning of the opioid crisis. after all, doctors were sued for not prescribing enough back in the early 2000s.

yes there will be doctors that abuse the situation, but i doubt a similar situation or scenario to today's opioid one will come true, especially if the DEA has something to say about it, now that it is revved up to fight doctors prescribing opioids.
 
there are significant differences between opioid "pimps" and your supposed suboxone ones.
1. suboxone is significantly safer than almost all the other opioids.
2. the money making for suboxone is just not there. people are not buying it the way they buy other controlled substances (check out streetrx. there are like only 3 price quotes, all in the midwest. i got 17 "hits" for tramadol, and 96 for vicodin), and insurance companies arent paying for it, not in the way you are imaging.
3. DEA is keeping a much closer eye on suboxone providers than they did at the beginning of the opioid crisis. after all, doctors were sued for not prescribing enough back in the early 2000s.

yes there will be doctors that abuse the situation, but i doubt a similar situation or scenario to today's opioid one will come true, especially if the DEA has something to say about it, now that it is revved up to fight doctors prescribing opioids.

If you think there aren't people that are taking advantage of cash for suboxone business without any Behavorial visits, drug screens, etc as long as you got the cash, then you are living in LA LA land.

The only thing that gets people kicked out of the Suboxone pimp's pay for play business is not ponying up the cash. Forget the UDS findings, Behavorial visits, etc.

In fact, most Suboxone practitioners are pimps that just give you the Sub for cash.

Also, you are kidding yourself about the lack of abuse potential for Suboxone either.

This Anti-Heroin Drug Is Now King of the Jailhouse Drug Trade

Suboxone has become a big hit these days in the illicit opioid trade.

That being said, I will probably use Suboxone in the future for addiction in an honest manner.

But please dont insult my intelligence that there aren't as many Suboxone pimps out there as there are regular opioid pimps that do pay for play.


Also please don't pretend PROP cares about patients anymore than guys like Tennant. Both give you pie in the sky arguments about "helping" patients but the vast majority are about that dollar dollar.

You think the head of PROP would give a damn about this "crisis" if there wasn't big money to be made?
 
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The difference between prescribing suboxone/buprenorphine for substance abuse compared to opioids for chronic pain is enormous in outcomes. Suboxone/buprenorphine returns patients to functionality, full time employment, stabilizes finances (compared to heroin/prescription opioid acquisition costs), and relationships. Opioids for chronic pain frequently do the opposite- they lead patients into depression, disability, financial decay, social ostracisation, etc. Chronic opioid patients almost never stop being disabled and return to work whereas opioid dependent patients that convert to suboxone/buprenorphine typically do. Why the differences? Perhaps it is patient selection: I don't accept any insurance for buprenorphine treatment of substance abuse and these patients have more of an incentive to stabilize their lives compared to those on Medicaid using suboxone, and continuing to be dependent financially on the state. In any case, my patient success rate of improved functionality is 90% in buprenorphine treatment for substance abuse but was less than 15% with prescription opioids being prescribed for pain.
 
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i agree completely with algosdoc.

and as i noted, there will be doctors that take advantage. do you really believe we will be seeing 60,000 people dying each year from buprenorphine OD? i highly doubt this.

there are differences in the performance of the drug, differences in the performance of the doctors (having to get an x-registration for example), differences in the paid off "experts" touting all the benefits without any risks of opioid use, and differences in the aggressiveness and pursuit of the regulating agencies.

and i have not seen a single patient (in consult - im not prescribing suboxone) who is asking me to prescribe them suboxone over any other opioid. they all rather get Norco/oxy's even if they have "tried" suboxone.
 
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i agree completely with algosdoc.

and as i noted, there will be doctors that take advantage. do you really believe we will be seeing 60,000 people dying each year from buprenorphine OD? i highly doubt this.

there are differences in the performance of the drug, differences in the performance of the doctors (having to get an x-registration for example), differences in the paid off "experts" touting all the benefits without any risks of opioid use, and differences in the aggressiveness and pursuit of the regulating agencies.

and i have not seen a single patient (in consult - im not prescribing suboxone) who is asking me to prescribe them suboxone over any other opioid. they all rather get Norco/oxy's even if they have "tried" suboxone.
Since suboxone does have some pain relieving properties, maybe we should transition all of our opiate patients to suboxone.
I don't know. Just a thought.
 
The difference between prescribing suboxone/buprenorphine for substance abuse compared to opioids for chronic pain is enormous in outcomes. Suboxone/buprenorphine returns patients to functionality, full time employment, stabilizes finances (compared to heroin/prescription opioid acquisition costs), and relationships. Opioids for chronic pain frequently do the opposite- they lead patients into depression, disability, financial decay, social ostracisation, etc. Chronic opioid patients almost never stop being disabled and return to work whereas opioid dependent patients that convert to suboxone/buprenorphine typically do. Why the differences? Perhaps it is patient selection: I don't accept any insurance for buprenorphine treatment of substance abuse and these patients have more of an incentive to stabilize their lives compared to those on Medicaid using suboxone, and continuing to be dependent financially on the state. In any case, my patient success rate of improved functionality is 90% in buprenorphine treatment for substance abuse but was less than 15% with prescription opioids being prescribed for pain.

Algos,

What percentage maintained function?

i.e. were working, started low to moderate dose opioids, and continued working.
 
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For those not on disability already, those taking low dose opioids, around 25% went on disability within 5 years. High dose opioids, 75% went on disability in 5 years.
 
i agree completely with algosdoc.

and as i noted, there will be doctors that take advantage. do you really believe we will be seeing 60,000 people dying each year from buprenorphine OD? i highly doubt this.

there are differences in the performance of the drug, differences in the performance of the doctors (having to get an x-registration for example), differences in the paid off "experts" touting all the benefits without any risks of opioid use, and differences in the aggressiveness and pursuit of the regulating agencies.

and i have not seen a single patient (in consult - im not prescribing suboxone) who is asking me to prescribe them suboxone over any other opioid. they all rather get Norco/oxy's even if they have "tried" suboxone.

60,000 people a year aren't dying of legally prescribed opioids of any type.
 
no. 64,000 people per year are dying from drug overdoses. 15,000 are dying from opioids prescribed for them.

20,000 are dying from synthetic opioids
3000 from methadone
14,000 from naturally occuring opioids
15,400 are dying from heroin.

(the majority of the rest are from cocaine and methamphetamine)
 
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Dr Tennant is an honorable doctor. He is one of the few doctors left that understands the needs of chronic pain patients. I have AA and Dr.Tennet and my doctor confined my diagnosis by reading my MRI the diagnosis was also confirmed by the radiologist that read my report. My AA was caused by an epidural inject I got during my left knee replacement. I was stuck 6 times during the procedure. After the procedure I was experiencing pain so severe that I was begging my husband to kill me. I had my right knee replaced 6 months earlier and the pain was nothening like this pain. Since the surgery I have had severe chronic pain to the point that I do not know how I am going to go on living. Dr Tennant confirmed by diagnosis he sent me his protocol which I followed to a t and my doctor added prednisone to the regiment for 1 week. While the pain is still pretty bad it did get better following Dr Tennant program. As a CPP my heart breaks to see how all these medical students are responding. Pain Patients dont want to be in pain 24/7 it changes EVERYTHING. You have to learn a whole new way of living. And no matter how positive you are no matter what treatments you get the pain wears you down. And to know that there is a treatment available (opiods) you can't have it because you may become addicted it is insane! Cruel! And Torture.
 
Dr Tennant is an honorable doctor. He is one of the few doctors left that understands the needs of chronic pain patients. I have AA and Dr.Tennet and my doctor confined my diagnosis by reading my MRI the diagnosis was also confirmed by the radiologist that read my report. My AA was caused by an epidural inject I got during my left knee replacement. I was stuck 6 times during the procedure. After the procedure I was experiencing pain so severe that I was begging my husband to kill me. I had my right knee replaced 6 months earlier and the pain was nothening like this pain. Since the surgery I have had severe chronic pain to the point that I do not know how I am going to go on living. Dr Tennant confirmed by diagnosis he sent me his protocol which I followed to a t and my doctor added prednisone to the regiment for 1 week. While the pain is still pretty bad it did get better following Dr Tennant program. As a CPP my heart breaks to see how all these medical students are responding. Pain Patients dont want to be in pain 24/7 it changes EVERYTHING. You have to learn a whole new way of living. And no matter how positive you are no matter what treatments you get the pain wears you down. And to know that there is a treatment available (opiods) you can't have it because you may become addicted it is insane! Cruel! And Torture.

 
Dr Tennant is an honorable doctor. He is one of the few doctors left that understands the needs of chronic pain patients. I have AA and Dr.Tennet and my doctor confined my diagnosis by reading my MRI the diagnosis was also confirmed by the radiologist that read my report. My AA was caused by an epidural inject I got during my left knee replacement. I was stuck 6 times during the procedure. After the procedure I was experiencing pain so severe that I was begging my husband to kill me. I had my right knee replaced 6 months earlier and the pain was nothening like this pain. Since the surgery I have had severe chronic pain to the point that I do not know how I am going to go on living. Dr Tennant confirmed by diagnosis he sent me his protocol which I followed to a t and my doctor added prednisone to the regiment for 1 week. While the pain is still pretty bad it did get better following Dr Tennant program. As a CPP my heart breaks to see how all these medical students are responding. Pain Patients dont want to be in pain 24/7 it changes EVERYTHING. You have to learn a whole new way of living. And no matter how positive you are no matter what treatments you get the pain wears you down. And to know that there is a treatment available (opiods) you can't have it because you may become addicted it is insane! Cruel! And Torture.

We as pain doctors don't make the rules. But we're required to follow them. We have no choice. Those that stupidly and arrogantly flout such rules get raided and shut down. We, as Pain doctors are actually trying to help people in pain, in the ways we're allowed to and in LEGAL ways.

We can only do with opiates, what those who give us the legal authority to prescribe them, allow us to do.
Asking us to violate DEA/CDC rules, and go to jail for it, lose everything so someone can get a prescription out of bounds of what the DEA licenses us to do, and to be martyrs for the cause, is ridiculous. It's a wonder, any of us are willing to prescribe opiates in this toxic prescribing environment at all, and prescribe opiates at all.

But that may not last. If we continue to be attacked by the government, the media, and ultimately patients, a time may soon come we just simply can't do it anymore. But not because we don't want to help people. We do. But because the opiate have become too much of a burden. And you can lay this blame, squarely in the laps of those that have abused the medications, and not with the doctors that have tried to help people with them.
 
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I thought that the CDC guidelines were guidelines not laws. That is what the CDC says "These are guidelines not laws!" I understand that states are enacting laws based on the CDC guidelines. I'm not blaming doctors for this mess. I understand you have to follow the law. I was upset because of the he was being talked about. You all don't know him and are believing all the negative stuff that the DEA is saying about him. Look into some of treatments. Their is real science behind how some people absorb drugs and hormones play a real part in the fight of flight response. CPP because of this opiod crises are looking for EVERYTHING they can do to feel better because we KNOW that soon we will not have access to our medication any more, we see all of the shows about addicts dying and that the demon opioid is causing the whole problem. No one is taking up for Dr Tennant or legitimate chronic pain patients who follow the rules of their pain contract to the letter. Believe me when I say every AA case is different but for the majority of us opioids are the treatment. To ask us to think our pain away is ludicrous. I can not speak for all of CPP but the ones I know are constantly looking for new drugs and new ways to manage their pain. I just wish that more doctors would push back to the DEA and the CDC, you all must have had a least one patient that you felt would benefit from opioid therapy? If you haven't then you've never met an AA patient. And that is who Dr Tennant is dealing with the most severe of chronic pain patients so please don't make fun of him and call him a drug dealer/pill pusher. Start investigating his "protocols". Open your minds. BTW he has not been charged with anything yet. And the money he recieved was 20 years ago not in present times. His "mom and pop" practice is not a pill mill or a fancy building it almost a shack compared to some of the pain management places I have seen today. He has not sacked away millions of dollars if you saw his house and his practice you would laugh because he lives so humbly. He will advise non paying patients giving them infomationabot AA for free, like he did for me. Anyway I do understand that you must follow rules and I dont think I said anything critical about doctors. With CPP we must follow our pain contacts to a "t" we know that this is a way for doctors to protect themselves. And hey UA me anytime..call me in for a pill count...test that I am taking all my meds....dont write another script if my dog ate the first one...drop me if I get extra meds from the ER. I really don't mind because I am not an addict waiting for my next fix...I'm a CPP trying to function.
 
you know, I have wondered myself and had ethical discussions with myself a lot about opioids and addiction. many people have said "so, im addicted, im not bothering anyone, just give me my pills", "I know my body better than anyone else, and I know what I need," or "you don't know what kind of pain im in" (which is being presumptuous on the patient's part, btw- doctors can/do have chronic pain too).

it comes down to a couple of simple facts. first, pain is a fact of life. we have pain mechanisms and there is a use for pain - from the acute form. chronic pain is a bast#$Dization of acute pain which serves no function.

second, addiction - and high dose opioid therapy - does harm others, regardless of what patients say, harm is not inclusive to the patient him/herself. family members have to justify why their loved ones don't act right. they have to change their perception of not only the patient but of themselves to try to cope with the patient and help. children and grandchildren see a different person, one with glazed over eyes, who sleeps a lot, doesn't interact, cant do anything or participate (and will often make excuses "ya dad doesn't play ball any more, he got hurt, and now he has to take pain pills that knock him out"). some kids become addicts themselves, as exposure to opioids is most common from children taking a pill of their parents and grandparents. in addition, kids will see all this aberrant behavior as normal, so popping pills, using drugs, limited activity, etc. becomes expected. and if someone overdoses? the pain, anguish and guilt of the survivors far outweighs, in my opinion, what temporary benefit a narcotic would give the patient.

true addicts actually will go out of their way to hurt others in an attempt to get more narcotics for themselves. when it becomes staple of society, (see China and opium), it devastates and destroys a society. and there is no condition known to man that mandates opioid treatment, even though many have been postulated. in my life, ive heard that opioids are mandatory for fibromyalgia, migraines, chronic low back pain, AA, EDS, TMJ, CP, chronic pancreatitis, IBS, inflammatory bowel disease, sleep disorders, pelvic pain. in these chronic pain conditions people do not primarily die from the underlying condition - but they do die from accidental OD.

so yes, there are legal reasons why we should not be prescribing high dose opioids. but there are even stronger ethical reasons that we should not be doing so.


of note, INSYS and their drug are about high dose opioid therapy with little to no use in non-palliative cancer pain patients. my guess is that he is being investigated regarding this medication, and it actually goes beyond AA treatment. the money he received as possible kickback was just a couple of years ago, not 20.
 
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Tennant is a joke that believes opioids, vitamins and hormone treatment can heal all pain. Reminds me of the inverse of the Suboxone pimps at PROP who believe Suboxone cures all.

And whats up with this "adhesive arachnoiditis" that everyone has at his clinic? How are they diagnosing this?

Gary Snook seems very confident that he needs to take 100s of MME per day for this "diagnosis" in everyone of Tennant's articles. Unfortunately, poor Gary remains "disabled" with zero gainful employment for years due to his severe pain from this horrible disease and apparently requires 100s of mgs of Morphine per day to survive.
Dr. Common Sense: I so very much respect and appreciate the medical students who are devoting their futures to helping patients like me. My doctor has saved both my life and my husband's by finding our cancer in time for an intervention. Since I understand you feel strongly about physicians prescribing opioids for pain I would very much like to share my story with you and ask your advice as to what you would do, as a physician, if you were faced with a patient with my history. I have Chronic Mylogenous Leukemia, exacerbated by gastiritis from the strong medication I need to take to keep me in remission. I can no longer take many medications, such as NSAID's and others, like Mobec, for osteoarthritis. While I was hospitalized for a port insertion I developed MRSA, so surgery is out of the question for someone with my compromised immune system. In the meantime, I have no cartilage left in either knee, but cannot have knee replacement surgery; have a torn rotator cuff and six compressed cervical vertebrae with two herniated cervical discs for which I also cannot undergo surgical intervention. I also suffer from fibromyalgia, which has been diagnosed by a board certified physiatrist, who is a pioneer in the field and has had many pubished papers in medical journals. I have tried all the typical medications for fibro, such as gabapentin, Horizant, Lyrica, Neurontin and Savella, however, they either have had intolerable side-effects or no effect at all. I have tried physical therapy, hydrotherapy and many naturopathic alternatives, such as chelation, removal of mercury dental fillings and organic juicing, etc. I have removed gluten from my diet. Having said all this, the only thing that has been successful in addressing my chronic pain is opioid therapy. I do not get "high" from my medication; it has simply enabled me to function in order to drive, for example, take care of my family, raise my special needs daughter, and help my husband, who suffers from migraine headache. What would you tell a patient like me who comes to you with this history (including EEG's, MRI's, X-rays, Physical Therapy, biofeedback, massage therapy, chiropractic and numerous tests and procedures)? When I was first diagnosed thirty years ago, and before my symptoms exacerbated, I walked three miles per day; I underwent experimental prolotherapy, arthroscopic surgery and had no medication except Motrin for many years. My liver was overloaded, but has since recovered. Would you send me away telling me I was addicted to the pain medicine that I am dependent on, but have not abused and has allowed me to function? What would you suggest I do? Everything I've attempted to refrain from opioid therapy has not been successful. There are things such as stem-cell therapy, but they are not covered by insurance, as is the case with many other aids, such as massage. Prolotherapy, although helpful, was finally denied by my insurance. Thank you for taking the time to read this long diatribe. Chronic intractable pain is a nightmare and I hope you never suffer from it. My opioid therapy has been reduced by half in the last 18 months and now I am bedridden. I hope your generation will find a cure for these life altering illnesses. I send this with all due respect.
 
Dr. Common Sense: I so very much respect and appreciate the medical students who are devoting their futures to helping patients like me. My doctor has saved both my life and my husband's by finding our cancer in time for an intervention. Since I understand you feel strongly about physicians prescribing opioids for pain I would very much like to share my story with you and ask your advice as to what you would do, as a physician, if you were faced with a patient with my history. I have Chronic Mylogenous Leukemia, exacerbated by gastiritis from the strong medication I need to take to keep me in remission. I can no longer take many medications, such as NSAID's and others, like Mobec, for osteoarthritis. While I was hospitalized for a port insertion I developed MRSA, so surgery is out of the question for someone with my compromised immune system. In the meantime, I have no cartilage left in either knee, but cannot have knee replacement surgery; have a torn rotator cuff and six compressed cervical vertebrae with two herniated cervical discs for which I also cannot undergo surgical intervention. I also suffer from fibromyalgia, which has been diagnosed by a board certified physiatrist, who is a pioneer in the field and has had many pubished papers in medical journals. I have tried all the typical medications for fibro, such as gabapentin, Horizant, Lyrica, Neurontin and Savella, however, they either have had intolerable side-effects or no effect at all. I have tried physical therapy, hydrotherapy and many naturopathic alternatives, such as chelation, removal of mercury dental fillings and organic juicing, etc. I have removed gluten from my diet. Having said all this, the only thing that has been successful in addressing my chronic pain is opioid therapy. I do not get "high" from my medication; it has simply enabled me to function in order to drive, for example, take care of my family, raise my special needs daughter, and help my husband, who suffers from migraine headache. What would you tell a patient like me who comes to you with this history (including EEG's, MRI's, X-rays, Physical Therapy, biofeedback, massage therapy, chiropractic and numerous tests and procedures)? When I was first diagnosed thirty years ago, and before my symptoms exacerbated, I walked three miles per day; I underwent experimental prolotherapy, arthroscopic surgery and had no medication except Motrin for many years. My liver was overloaded, but has since recovered. Would you send me away telling me I was addicted to the pain medicine that I am dependent on, but have not abused and has allowed me to function? What would you suggest I do? Everything I've attempted to refrain from opioid therapy has not been successful. There are things such as stem-cell therapy, but they are not covered by insurance, as is the case with many other aids, such as massage. Prolotherapy, although helpful, was finally denied by my insurance. Thank you for taking the time to read this long diatribe. Chronic intractable pain is a nightmare and I hope you never suffer from it. My opioid therapy has been reduced by half in the last 18 months and now I am bedridden. I hope your generation will find a cure for these life altering illnesses. I send this with all due respect.

You're safe here.
 
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Ok, I see. My response to patients is TOUGH. You elected legislators that have created restrictive prescribing laws and punitive measures against physicians , you elected governors (who appoint state medical board members that have pursued action against physicians by the hundreds for prescribing opioids), you elected the president (who appoints Supreme Court and Appellate Court judges and appoints the director of the DEA and FDA who have imposed rules and regulations regarding opioids and pursue criminal actions against physicians), you elected attorney generals who are prosecuting doctors for insurance fraud for what the attorney generals consider to be overprescribing, you elected judges that are deciding doctors are culpable for injuries to third parties that are injured by patients taking opioids and preside over medical malpractice suits brought by family members of those who died from mixing opioids with cocaine or alcohol , you elected county prosecutors that are invoking anti nuisance laws against doctors prescribing opioids and prosecute doctors for murder when patients taking opioids overdose and die , you elected county commissioners that are suing doctors for prescribing opioids even if appropriate, and you elected coroners have targeted doctors and created a list of people that died taking opioids whether or not the opioids had any causation of death. All these elected officials in addition to Medicare, Medicaid, insurance companies, and pharmacies have made life hell for doctors trying to do their best to treat patients with opioids, and because of their actions, now your unfettered access to opioids is over. You elected (YES YOU), these people that are imprisoning and defaming doctors, destroying their careers, trying them in the press and dragging out trials for many years causing financial and professional destruction.

Besides, there is not very good evidence opioids long term do anything except cause permanent changes in the brain and cause chemical and psychological dependency without effectively improving physical function and actually worsen psychological conditions. Pain is not improved long term.

So to patients that are crying foul to their doctors, and moaning about how doctors have become so cruel- the electorate caused most of these problems for you. "Elections have consequences"- Barack Obama . Policies and philosophies of the elected matter. So instead of berating doctors, suck it up buttercup, get off your asses and become politically active, and actually know a thing or two about your candidates next time. The ship has turned 180 degrees, the high opioid prescription days are over, and they are not coming back.
 
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my response it that I am sorry.

I am sorry that certain drug companies (well, one in particular) decided to push profits over patient care and safety, and convince a whole generation of complicit doctors to decide that profits are most important, and that opioids apparently are safe, no one dies, everyone feels doped drugged pain free, kumbaya...

I am sorry that someone introduced you to an addictive drug, and now you are stuck, a legacy patient, that will never be able to realize that life would have been 100 times better had you not ever been exposed to the toxic compound.

I am sorry you are at least dependent on the drug, as you feel that you cannot do anything without the drug. what a crutch, to imagine not being able to even get up or get dressed without having to pop a pill or 5 or 6.

there is no cure for chronic pain. there are many ways of living with chronic pain and managing such pain so that one can have a good quality life. we knew that 2 generations ago. then let the drug companies and paid lackeys convince us differently.


(mis)quoting a movie, Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail, "(s)he chose... poorly"
 
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Ok, I see. My response to patients is TOUGH. You elected legislators that have created restrictive prescribing laws and punitive measures against physicians , you elected governors (who appoint state medical board members that have pursued action against physicians by the hundreds for prescribing opioids), you elected the president (who appoints Supreme Court and Appellate Court judges and appoints the director of the DEA and FDA who have imposed rules and regulations regarding opioids and pursue criminal actions against physicians), you elected attorney generals who are prosecuting doctors for insurance fraud for what the attorney generals consider to be overprescribing, you elected judges that are deciding doctors are culpable for injuries to third parties that are injured by patients taking opioids and preside over medical malpractice suits brought by family members of those who died from mixing opioids with cocaine or alcohol , you elected county prosecutors that are invoking anti nuisance laws against doctors prescribing opioids and prosecute doctors for murder when patients taking opioids overdose and die , you elected county commissioners that are suing doctors for prescribing opioids even if appropriate, and you elected coroners have targeted doctors and created a list of people that died taking opioids whether or not the opioids had any causation of death. All these elected officials in addition to Medicare, Medicaid, insurance companies, and pharmacies have made life hell for doctors trying to do their best to treat patients with opioids, and because of their actions, now your unfettered access to opioids is over. You elected (YES YOU), these people that are imprisoning and defaming doctors, destroying their careers, trying them in the press and dragging out trials for many years causing financial and professional destruction.

Besides, there is not very good evidence opioids long term do anything except cause permanent changes in the brain and cause chemical and psychological dependency without effectively improving physical function and actually worsen psychological conditions. Pain is not improved long term.

So to patients that are crying foul to their doctors, and moaning about how doctors have become so cruel- the electorate caused most of these problems for you. "Elections have consequences"- Barack Obama . Policies and philosophies of the elected matter. So instead of berating doctors, suck it up buttercup, get off your asses and become politically active, and actually know a thing or two about your candidates next time. The ship has turned 180 degrees, the high opioid prescription days are over, and they are not coming back.

This is pure gold.
 
Patients may not understand that when a doc writes a script, it is an ORDER. We are ordering a patient to take medication that sometimes has the potential to kill or have devastating, long term consequences, which patients are not fully educated about.

That's why docs get arrested and charged with MURDER when patients die. It's why patients should not try to twist doctors' arms. Like algosdoc said above, people should be trying to twist the arms of legislators, governors, and neighbors to get easier access to narcotics.

Personally, I think people should be able to take whatever drug they want as long as they don't sell it to kids. But I would never order something that I think will be harmful to a patient.
 
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If I may offer an observation, hopefully while being objective. There is an extraordinary amount of blame and finger pointing going on, but not much in the way of critical thinking and problem solving. There are also very subjective opinions being floated as facts, which may have threads of truth to them in some fashion, but the presentations are being used as attacks and pejorative statements to denigrate patients. These patients, whom are the very people it is supposed to be the goal and sworn oath to help. This by itself is ethically and morally questionable. How can you truly help, in good faith, people whom you clearly see as less than? I hope those that have expressed or thought these things I have described will consider research instead of practice.

That said, aside from governmental changes, which is a valid comment, what ideas do y'all see as steps to help with the many issues here? One of the problems with government is they lump everything together. Each issue is a stand-alone item to address:

1. Proper & adequate Pain Treatment/management

2. Drug addiction, regardless of original source

3. Bad doctors

4 Bad patients

5. Bad vendors - legal here, pharmacies & manufacturers

6. Criminal drug enterprise

7. Anything not listed

Each of these is a unique challenge and deserves a proper approach. The rest of the population, which is 10 fold greater, is everyone who does NOT belong anywhere but #1.

Yes, each death is awful, but the flu kills 35k people every year. Alcohol ruins scores more lives than opoids and no one cares because it's socially acceptable. How about smoking? No one treats those people this way, and they don't even have any justifiable need. I'm only making a point, don't fixate here.

We can and should do a hell of a lot better, but everyone has to want to. Soapbox over.
 
Ok, I see. My response to patients is TOUGH. You elected legislators that have created restrictive prescribing laws and punitive measures against physicians , you elected governors (who appoint state medical board members that have pursued action against physicians by the hundreds for prescribing opioids), you elected the president (who appoints Supreme Court and Appellate Court judges and appoints the director of the DEA and FDA who have imposed rules and regulations regarding opioids and pursue criminal actions against physicians), you elected attorney generals who are prosecuting doctors for insurance fraud for what the attorney generals consider to be overprescribing, you elected judges that are deciding doctors are culpable for injuries to third parties that are injured by patients taking opioids and preside over medical malpractice suits brought by family members of those who died from mixing opioids with cocaine or alcohol , you elected county prosecutors that are invoking anti nuisance laws against doctors prescribing opioids and prosecute doctors for murder when patients taking opioids overdose and die , you elected county commissioners that are suing doctors for prescribing opioids even if appropriate, and you elected coroners have targeted doctors and created a list of people that died taking opioids whether or not the opioids had any causation of death. All these elected officials in addition to Medicare, Medicaid, insurance companies, and pharmacies have made life hell for doctors trying to do their best to treat patients with opioids, and because of their actions, now your unfettered access to opioids is over. You elected (YES YOU), these people that are imprisoning and defaming doctors, destroying their careers, trying them in the press and dragging out trials for many years causing financial and professional destruction.

Besides, there is not very good evidence opioids long term do anything except cause permanent changes in the brain and cause chemical and psychological dependency without effectively improving physical function and actually worsen psychological conditions. Pain is not improved long term.

So to patients that are crying foul to their doctors, and moaning about how doctors have become so cruel- the electorate caused most of these problems for you. "Elections have consequences"- Barack Obama . Policies and philosophies of the elected matter. So instead of berating doctors, suck it up buttercup, get off your asses and become politically active, and actually know a thing or two about your candidates next time. The ship has turned 180 degrees, the high opioid prescription days are over, and they are not coming back.


Interesting post... Im not sure I Agree the opiate prescribing/use days are over.. I may even argue that right now they have PEAKED. It has become so out of control we have news stories about the opioid epidemic, and its a dinner conversation topic with most normal people. Is there evidence that prescriptions are declining? Even if they are declining, aren't all those people just turning to the black market?

Blaming politicians is a strange response..the culpability is on the doctor, Im not prescribing to you because I myself (not barak Obama or trump or whoever) believe you don't need it/its not good for you. Or I AM prescribing to you because I believe your pain is real and requires long term opiate therapy...

I like the response of TOUGH, but not because its of who you elected, I don't care who you elected, its MY decision and your not getting opiates to feed your depression/addiction because of ME. Because I don't believe your complaints are reasonable.. lets grow a pair and tell it like it is to these addicted people... some are helpless and will turn to the black market, some might one day say thank you for giving me my life back
 
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Interesting post... Im not sure I Agree the opiate prescribing/use days are over.. I may even argue that right now they have PEAKED. It has become so out of control we have news stories about the opioid epidemic, and its a dinner conversation topic with most normal people. Is there evidence that prescriptions are declining? Even if they are declining, aren't all those people just turning to the black market?

Blaming politicians is a strange response..the culpability is on the doctor, Im not prescribing to you because I myself (not barak Obama or trump or whoever) believe you don't need it/its not good for you. Or I AM prescribing to you because I believe your pain is real and requires long term opiate therapy...

I like the response of TOUGH, but not because its of who you elected, I don't care who you elected, its MY decision and your not getting opiates to feed your depression/addiction because of ME. Because I don't believe your complaints are reasonable.. lets grow a pair and tell it like it is to these addicted people... some are helpless and will turn to the black market, some might one day say thank you for giving me my life back

Agree with you on a lot of this. But if you really want to do the right thing and sleep well at night then have the tough
conversation, offer them a taper, and when it goes sideways diagnose OUD and treat it.
 
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Above and beyond all else, doctors are to do no harm.

Prescribing opioids to nonmalignant chronic pain patients with low to no functionality is, for the most part, much more harmful than beneficial.

1 patient death to the flu is sad, possibly avoidable. 1 death to a patient’s self determined choice to do a dangerous activity is tragic and hard on family, society. 1 patient death due to opioids, by some (especially lawyers, DEA), is not avoidable or tragic, but is murder.
 
A flu patient dies because they did nor did not get a vaccination, but society, the legal system, and politicians view this as something not preventable, even when at times it is. But a patient dies while taking opioids and all hell breaks loose. It matters not that they were taking multiple other drugs including alcohol or cocaine or even heroin unbeknownst to the physician. It matters not they share their drugs with others even though it is a felony. It doesn't matter that they had a pacemaker that had stopped functioning months before and they had not yet had it replaced. It doesn't matter if they were even a patient of the accused physician for the past year- the fact that the doctor prescribed opioids is enough. These are not theoretical reasons for charges brought against physicians- they are very real and documented reasons by state attorney generals. Yes, there has been a sea change in attitude amongst politicians that are clamoring to find someone to blame for the opioid crisis....they are willing to suspend reality in order to get a conviction. Of course we now know opioids are not good for you, but beyond the obvious, there is the subtext of the elected creating harsh and punitive situations for any doctor that has a bad outcome associated with opioids even in a remote way. We can no longer bear the burden of standing alone in society trying to "help" patients by prescribing opioids. Our "oath" includes neither giving opioids on demand nor going to jail for an increasingly hostile public that just don't give a s*^t what happens to their physician prescribing them opioids- they will just find someone else to do it. The public is demanding, not for help with chronic pain, but for a continuation of their candy. Perhaps the party is not completely over, but for high dose opioids, only a fool would continue prescribing them in this environment. Yes, some patients will kill themselves because they could not get the high doses of opioids they demand. Tough. They may have died anyway taking the high doses of opioids- but it is no longer the problem of the physician. The capacity to use our judgment of risk/benefit assessment for a specific patient's optimal opioid dosing has been stripped away by elected officials, but this only came about due to the rising body count- not because opioids are largely ineffective in most chronic non-malignant pain situations. Their proclamations of draconian reductions of opioids without rehab centers or other methods of curbing massive withdrawal being set up in advance has led to other societal problems. Tough. Not our problem anymore.
 
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Ok, I see. My response to patients is TOUGH. You elected legislators that have created restrictive prescribing laws and punitive measures against physicians , you elected governors (who appoint state medical board members that have pursued action against physicians by the hundreds for prescribing opioids), you elected the president (who appoints Supreme Court and Appellate Court judges and appoints the director of the DEA and FDA who have imposed rules and regulations regarding opioids and pursue criminal actions against physicians), you elected attorney generals who are prosecuting doctors for insurance fraud for what the attorney generals consider to be overprescribing, you elected judges that are deciding doctors are culpable for injuries to third parties that are injured by patients taking opioids and preside over medical malpractice suits brought by family members of those who died from mixing opioids with cocaine or alcohol , you elected county prosecutors that are invoking anti nuisance laws against doctors prescribing opioids and prosecute doctors for murder when patients taking opioids overdose and die , you elected county commissioners that are suing doctors for prescribing opioids even if appropriate, and you elected coroners have targeted doctors and created a list of people that died taking opioids whether or not the opioids had any causation of death. All these elected officials in addition to Medicare, Medicaid, insurance companies, and pharmacies have made life hell for doctors trying to do their best to treat patients with opioids, and because of their actions, now your unfettered access to opioids is over. You elected (YES YOU), these people that are imprisoning and defaming doctors, destroying their careers, trying them in the press and dragging out trials for many years causing financial and professional destruction.

Besides, there is not very good evidence opioids long term do anything except cause permanent changes in the brain and cause chemical and psychological dependency without effectively improving physical function and actually worsen psychological conditions. Pain is not improved long term.

So to patients that are crying foul to their doctors, and moaning about how doctors have become so cruel- the electorate caused most of these problems for you. "Elections have consequences"- Barack Obama . Policies and philosophies of the elected matter. So instead of berating doctors, suck it up buttercup, get off your asses and become politically active, and actually know a thing or two about your candidates next time. The ship has turned 180 degrees, the high opioid prescription days are over, and they are not coming back.


I'm sorry to say that it really doesn't matter who you elect. Had Hillary or Bernie been elected I doubt that we wouldn't be in exactly the same place as we are right now on this issue. It seems that one of the only things Democrats and Republicans can agree on is that opioids are the spawn of the devil.
 
They do seem to be in agreement, however the staunch Republicans are engaged in the most rigorous enforcement. The opioid issue was not on the forefront prior to the last few years but some candidates have expressed a more balanced view than others.
 
A flu patient dies because they did nor did not get a vaccination, but society, the legal system, and politicians view this as something not preventable, even when at times it is. But a patient dies while taking opioids and all hell breaks loose. It matters not that they were taking multiple other drugs including alcohol or cocaine or even heroin unbeknownst to the physician. It matters not they share their drugs with others even though it is a felony. It doesn't matter that they had a pacemaker that had stopped functioning months before and they had not yet had it replaced. It doesn't matter if they were even a patient of the accused physician for the past year- the fact that the doctor prescribed opioids is enough. These are not theoretical reasons for charges brought against physicians- they are very real and documented reasons by state attorney generals. Yes, there has been a sea change in attitude amongst politicians that are clamoring to find someone to blame for the opioid crisis....they are willing to suspend reality in order to get a conviction. Of course we now know opioids are not good for you, but beyond the obvious, there is the subtext of the elected creating harsh and punitive situations for any doctor that has a bad outcome associated with opioids even in a remote way. We can no longer bear the burden of standing alone in society trying to "help" patients by prescribing opioids. Our "oath" includes neither giving opioids on demand nor going to jail for an increasingly hostile public that just don't give a s*^t what happens to their physician prescribing them opioids- they will just find someone else to do it. The public is demanding, not for help with chronic pain, but for a continuation of their candy. Perhaps the party is not completely over, but for high dose opioids, only a fool would continue prescribing them in this environment. Yes, some patients will kill themselves because they could not get the high doses of opioids they demand. Tough. They may have died anyway taking the high doses of opioids- but it is no longer the problem of the physician. The capacity to use our judgment of risk/benefit assessment for a specific patient's optimal opioid dosing has been stripped away by elected officials, but this only came about due to the rising body count- not because opioids are largely ineffective in most chronic non-malignant pain situations. Their proclamations of draconian reductions of opioids without rehab centers or other methods of curbing massive withdrawal being set up in advance has led to other societal problems. Tough. Not our problem anymore.
Do you prescribe any opiates still?
 
Good posts.

At the end of the day, it’s MY license. A lot of the patients I see were escalated on insane amounts of opiates with very little, if any pathology.

I’ve worked too damn hard and sacrificed too much to be manipulated into giving a script.

I get it. Chronic pain sucks.

Interestingly, I’ve found a way with 3 spine surgeries and a ton of hardware in my spine to finish my training.

Guess what to the patients reading this board? I have much more pathology and surgeries than you, but, somehow I’m able to get up everyday and work (with heavy lead on).

I guarantee my baseline pain is higher than >70% of the patients I see.

I’m not on disability. I work. I work to help people in pain. If I can do it without opiates, those on disability at home not working sure as hell can find a way.

/offsoapbox


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile
 
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I prescribe Schedule III and IV only, which means most patients do not want them. I cheerfully offer them to those taking 150mcg/hr fentanyl patches to wean them off the Schedule IIs but rarely have any takers.
 
Much of the 'opiate crisis' doesn't even involve a licensed physician, actual chronic pain patient, pharmacy or legitimate pharmaceutical manufacturer, yet we're all blamed and suffer the consequences.

Rarely talked about, is where so much of these opiates people use to OD on, come from. By the time the drug is found on autopsy chemistries, it's simply listed as an "opiate related death." The coroner has no idea where the fentanyl or the opiate came from. He just knows its there, in his dead patient. The drug may not have even been made by a valid pharmaceutical company, gone through a pharmacy, or have been prescribed by a actual doctor, for an actual patient with pain. Nevertheless, all of those deaths from opiates outside of medical channels, get blamed on the medical community and put in neon lights on the TV news, as part of "The Opiate Crisis." And all of a sudden, the doctors doing the right thing, and the patients with legitimate medical need, suffer the consequences of drugs not made in the US, that brought in from overseas, never made by an actual pharmaceutical company, never prescribed by an MD and never even taken by a patient with chronic pain.

I'm not saying that we in the Medical community don't need to do more to fix this problem. We do. But much of the opiates found, particularly the recent surge in fentanyl in overdose victims was made in illegitimate, illegal labs in China, and smuggled through the leaky US/Mexican non-border. And if this aspect of the problem isn't targeted and fixed also, no amount of strictness in prescribing can counter an unlimited amount of cheap, quickly smuggled opiates from whatever corner of the Earth wants to make a quick profit at the United States offense.

"The Chinese Connection to the Flood of Mexican Fentanyl" The Chinese Connection to the Flood of Mexican Fentanyl

Then, Mexican drug cartels including El Chapo's old crew, have the drugs sold on the street in the U.S. by illegal immigrant street gangs.

"33 pounds of fentanyl – enough to wipe out Massachusetts – seized in Boston...prosecutors said the synthetic opioid was being sold on the street by a drug gang with links to Mexico’s notorious Sinaloa Cartel, the drug organization once led by Joaquín 'El Chapo' Guzmán." 33 pounds of fentanyl – enough to wipe out Massachusetts – seized in Boston

Then, the drugs make their way to the streets, in some cases enough to kill a whole city, entirely bypassing and never having to involve a US Pharmaceutical company, pharmacy, licensed physician, or chronic pain patient.

"Men had enough fentanyl to kill entire population of New York City, New Jersey combined, police say...Jesus Carrillo-Pineda, a 31-year-old Philadelphia resident, received a 10-year sentence while Daniel Vasquez, a 28-year-old Somerton, Ariz., resident, received a six-year term" Men had enough fentanyl to kill entire population of New York City, New Jersey combined, police say

And the whole time, the shipments are coming via the ----ing U.S. Government's own Postal Service, itself!

"For Chinese fentanyl sellers, USPS is the ‘virtually guaranteed’ route to not get caught" For fentanyl sellers, USPS is 'virtually guaranteed' route to not get caught

The end result is the same: Doctors following the rules, and patients with legitimate medical need, share the brunt of the blame and consequences.
 
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I prescribe Schedule III and IV only, which means most patients do not want them. I cheerfully offer them to those taking 150mcg/hr fentanyl patches to wean them off the Schedule IIs but rarely have any takers.
Really?

So, only butrans, tramadol and suboxone?

If so, that's a big change from what you had been posting not too long ago. As I recall, as recently as a year or so ago, you had people on some very high dose CIIs, albeit, you were lowering doses.

How did you get from fairly high dose CIIs, to having no one on CIIs and only CIII and CIV?

Please explain in detail, if you don't mind, as this might be the way I go in the future, as I continue to lower my practice opiate exposure.
 
what these posters don't get and what algos hits on the head is that all the culpability falls on the physician. And right now we are in a very physician hostile environment. Physicians can no longer take patients' complaints at face value. And unfortunately, we currently do not have an accurate objective way to measure pain. Until we do, the risks outweigh the reward
 
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That point is not lost, however, when do two wrongs make a right, ever? Because that is the prescription being written by the blame game, which solves nothing.

Someone pointed out this study published last month. Interesting results, if research still matters. It's at BMJ's site.

"Postsurgical prescriptions for opioid naive patients and association with overdose and misuse: retrospective cohort study"
 
what you are regurgitating is stuff that is probably in part being encouraged by pharmaceuticals and supporters of opioids. Blame the illegal stuff...

There are a lot of deaths due to illicit opioids, but more still Re prescription opioid induced by a long shot.

Doctors are culpable because a lot of the narcotics causing death are not car fentanyl or heroin in the street. And many patients became primed for addiction through the actions of the medical community.

I know it is a big deal seizing 33 pounds of fentanyl. Great job!

Oh by the way, did u know that 6 states in NE US (not including NY - mass, Delaware, NH, Conn, Vermont) had a prescription drop off on Oct 28th.... that netted 4.8 Tons estimated of opioids.... that’s 9600 pounds of prescription opioids..... on one day, of people voluntarily getting rid of them.....that’s a little more than 33 pounds...



And these were a small fraction of some of the drugs in medicine cabinets...
 
How did I get to Schedule III and IV only? I quit the former practice and started my own. It was actually strongly suggested by this forum that I quit complaining and do something about it, so I did.
 
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They do seem to be in agreement, however the staunch Republicans are engaged in the most rigorous enforcement. The opioid issue was not on the forefront prior to the last few years but some candidates have expressed a more balanced view than others.

You memory is a little short:

Did you forget Deval Patrick the Democrat governor of MA, trying to ban Zohydro in 2014? Or that the SG's from 29 states also tried to get the FDA to rescind it's approval in 2013. Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Guam, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, and Washington. Seems like plenty of those were Democrats as well.

Do I need to remind you that the CDC "guidelines" were developed during the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION?

And let's not forgot Chucky Schumer: "We want to increase the funding in this new budget...for enforcement and to prevent the opioids from getting into the wrong hands," Schumer said, referring to over-prescribing by doctors and illicit shipments of synthetic drugs from overseas."

Wake up and get your head out of the sand. Stop blaming " staunch Republicans". It's EVERYONE, and they are coming for us.
 
They are coming for some of us. Particularly those of us that have patients on > 240 MED and we aren't offering weaning/buprenorphine to, and those we are Rx'ing opioid for (>120MED) who are obtaining them from 4 or more prescibers.

And then there are those of us with criminal enterprises.
 
How did I get to Schedule III and IV only? I quit the former practice and started my own. It was actually strongly suggested by this forum that I quit complaining and do something about it, so I did.
How is your volume?
Adequate?
 
They are coming for some of us. Particularly those of us that have patients on > 240 MED and we aren't offering weaning/buprenorphine to, and those we are Rx'ing opioid for (>120MED) who are obtaining them from 4 or more prescibers.

And then there are those of us with criminal enterprises.


I really wish I could believe it was only those who were the bad actors you describe. But after seeing what Purdue is doing, I get the feeling that the 90 MED limit is just the start.
 
I really wish I could believe it was only those who were the bad actors you describe. But after seeing what Purdue is doing, I get the feeling that the 90 MED limit is just the start.
What do you think their next move will be?
Lowering CDC recs to 60 MME/day?
Something else?
 
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