Deaf can't be doctors?

[jasin]

There is this overwhelming disdain on here and elsewhere for Deaf people who are seeking to become physicians. Evident by arguments made that assert because a Deaf person cannot hear -- he or she is de-facto disqualified from becoming a physician. Such arguments do not seem to be based on the facts though but rather ... misconceptions, half-truths, and stereotypes.

Some of this could be classified as just a general ignorance of the Deaf, technology, and the way hospitals operate. However, a lot of these arguments are being made very wholeheartedly and passionately. The passion in some instances is so strong that it seems like there is a hatred for Deaf people being heled by certain people making such arguments.

Its kind of sad that in this day in age that people would stoop to such a level. Technology, the law, and education help Deaf people overcome any challenges they face in being physicians. Therefore, the fact that a person is without hearing should be meaningless when it comes to actually being able to hold and/or perform the job of being a physician.

And yes, many medical schools still have policies and requirements that discriminate against the Deaf. That does not mean though a deaf person is disqualified. That just means such medical schools are refusing to accomodate Deaf people. Which is illegal under the law! Medical schools are required within the law to provide equal access and permit free speech.

Nevertheless, even after the Deaf have proven themselves in this field a countless number of times people still discriminate. This is very disheartening too because the deaf should not of had to of gone to such an extent to just be accepted equally alongside hearing physicians. The fact though that Deaf people have proven themselves does blow away and disprove any myths, misconceptions, and half-truths still held about the Deaf becoming physicians and in general.

Which is evident by the fact that there are now Deaf who are pre-med, medical students, residents, and even attending physicians. In every level of becoming a physician and in the end ... being a physician, there are Deaf people.

see:
http://www.amphl.org/profprogs.php
http://dartmed.dartmouth.edu/fall03/html/vs_deafness.shtml
http://www.deafis.org/faq/doctor.php
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/changingthefaceofmedicine/physicians/biography_244.html
http://www.michdhh.org/profiles/zazove_phil.html

So why is there still a disdain for Deaf who are wanting to be physicians? In practicality there is no reason there should be. Yet, it still occurs on here and elsewhere and is very overwhelming.

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[FrkyBgStok]

God I hope someone closes this thread. This is starting to get annoying.

 

[jasin]

This thread is not for your hating and/or trolling. If you are going to do any of that then please leave!! This thread was opened so we can have valid discourse about Deaf being physicians. To many threads on here and forums elsewhere do not permit such discourse.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

No, you don't want to discuss anything. You want to throw accusations around. The problem is that you are not understanding anyone. There isn't any disdain at all about deaf people becoming physicians. Not a single post on this entire forum has been discriminating towards deaf people. Not one person is against deaf people becoming physicians. And people have been saying that over and over and over and over and over again.

Everyone is telling you to look into what is needed. The classes aren't normally offered in sign language. Interviewers probably don't sign. We are telling you to look into it ahead of time because what are you going to do when you get to the interview and you cannot communicate with anyone in your group or the interviewers. They may just tell you that you need to bring an interpreter. They may tell you that you need to hire an interpreter throughout all of med school. They are going to expect everything from you that they do from other people, but you cannot expect them to hire and pay for interpreters simply for you.

Again, no one is against the deaf becoming physicians. Many people have posted parts of policies to show you that med schools will expect the average matriculant to be able to hear. This doesn't mean they will automatically reject you. It means you may have to do something special. As stated in another thread, a quadriplegic graduated from med school but he was required to hire a PA in order to do all of the stuff he couldn't throughout the four years.

There is absolutely no discrimination, but you cherry pick sentences and think people are discriminating and it is very frustrating because you aren't understanding. You are taking everything out of context. None of this post was discriminating in any way, shape, or form, but I am interested to see what parts of it you will address to make me look discriminating.

 

[dmf2682]

I don't think anyone has said anything discriminating at all, the op is just hearing things. ..

 

[MedWonk]

There is this overwhelming disdain on here and elsewhere for Deaf people who are seeking to become physicians. Evident by arguments made that assert because a Deaf person cannot hear -- he or she is de-facto disqualified from becoming a physician. Such arguments do not seem to be based on the facts though but rather ... misconceptions, half-truths, and stereotypes.

Some of this could be classified as just a general ignorance of the Deaf, technology, and the way hospitals operate. However, a lot of these arguments are being made very wholeheartedly and passionately. The passion in some instances is so strong that it seems like there is a hatred for Deaf people being heled by certain people making such arguments.

Its kind of sad that in this day in age that people would stoop to such a level. Technology, the law, and education help Deaf people overcome any challenges they face in being physicians. Therefore, the fact that a person is without hearing should be meaningless when it comes to actually being able to hold and/or perform the job of being a physician.

And yes, many medical schools still have policies and requirements that discriminate against the Deaf. That does not mean though a deaf person is disqualified. That just means such medical schools are refusing to accomodate Deaf people. Which is illegal under the law! Medical schools are required within the law to provide equal access and permit free speech.

Nevertheless, even after the Deaf have proven themselves in this field a countless number of times people still discriminate. This is very disheartening too because the deaf should not of had to of gone to such an extent to just be accepted equally alongside hearing physicians. The fact though that Deaf people have proven themselves does blow away and disprove any myths, misconceptions, and half-truths still held about the Deaf becoming physicians and in general.

Which is evident by the fact that there are now Deaf who are pre-med, medical students, residents, and even attending physicians. In every level of becoming a physician and in the end ... being a physician, there are Deaf people.

see:
http://www.amphl.org/profprogs.php
http://dartmed.dartmouth.edu/fall03/html/vs_deafness.shtml
http://www.deafis.org/faq/doctor.php
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/changingthefaceofmedicine/physicians/biography_244.html
http://www.michdhh.org/profiles/zazove_phil.html

So why is there still a disdain for Deaf who are wanting to be physicians? In practicality there is no reason there should be. Yet, it still occurs on here and elsewhere and is very overwhelming.

While I can't speak for any disdain or discrimination that allegedly may or may not have occurred on SDN, you should look into these links if you are serious about pursuing a career as a health professional:

http://www.amphl.org/preprof.php
http://www.amphl.org/forums/
http://www.washington.edu/doit/Stem/articles?346

If you want to be a physician, then go ahead and pursue that goal. Do what needs to be done. SDN is a treasure-trove of information when it comes to applying to med school, but up to a point. We want to help, but you need to realize that we can only offer you help for things we actually know about. No one is telling you that you can't do medicine, but rather we are trying to emphasize that the path is one that is already difficult for someone without disabilities, and will potentially be much more difficult for someone who has a disability. Unless you can get in contact with an SDNer with a hearing diability who has gone through med school or is currently a physician, then the AMPHL forum would probably be a more suitable place to address any concerns you have regarding applying to medical school and becoming a practicing physician while having a hearing disability.

If, on the other hand, you have questions about your GPA, the MCAT, post-bac programs, SMPs, what questions may be asked during interviews, then you've got lots of people here who can, and will likely be willing to, help you out. The one thing you need to stop doing is accusing everyone of being against you. The world is not against you, nor is it out to get you. If you want something, then you need to be the one to go out and get it.

 

[Neurocentric]

No, you don't want to discuss anything. You want to throw accusations around. The problem is that you are not understanding anyone. There isn't any disdain at all about deaf people becoming physicians. Not a single post on this entire forum has been discriminating towards deaf people. Not one person is against deaf people becoming physicians. And people have been saying that over and over and over and over and over again.

Everyone is telling you to look into what is needed. The classes aren't normally offered in sign language. Interviewers probably don't sign. We are telling you to look into it ahead of time because what are you going to do when you get to the interview and you cannot communicate with anyone in your group or the interviewers. They may just tell you that you need to bring an interpreter. They may tell you that you need to hire an interpreter throughout all of med school. They are going to expect everything from you that they do from other people, but you cannot expect them to hire and pay for interpreters simply for you.

Again, no one is against the deaf becoming physicians. Many people have posted parts of policies to show you that med schools will expect the average matriculant to be able to hear. This doesn't mean they will automatically reject you. It means you may have to do something special. As stated in another thread, a quadriplegic graduated from med school but he was required to hire a PA in order to do all of the stuff he couldn't throughout the four years.

There is absolutely no discrimination, but you cherry pick sentences and think people are discriminating and it is very frustrating because you aren't understanding. You are taking everything out of context. None of this post was discriminating in any way, shape, or form, but I am interested to see what parts of it you will address to make me look discriminating.

 

[jasin]

While I can't speak for any disdain or discrimination that allegedly may or may not have occurred on SDN, you should look into these links if you are serious about pursuing a career as a health professional:

http://www.amphl.org/preprof.php
http://www.amphl.org/forums/
http://www.washington.edu/doit/Stem/articles?346

If you want to be a physician, then go ahead and pursue that goal. Do what needs to be done. SDN is a treasure-trove of information when it comes to applying to med school, but up to a point. We want to help, but you need to realize that we can only offer you help for things we actually know about. No one is telling you that you can't do medicine, but rather we are trying to emphasize that the path is one that is already difficult for someone without disabilities, and will potentially be much more difficult for someone who has a disability. Unless you can get in contact with an SDNer with a hearing diability who has gone through med school or is currently a physician, then the AMPHL forum would probably be a more suitable place to address any concerns you have regarding applying to medical school and becoming a practicing physician while having a hearing disability.

If, on the other hand, you have questions about your GPA, the MCAT, post-bac programs, SMPs, what questions may be asked during interviews, then you've got lots of people here who can, and will likely be willing to, help you out. The one thing you need to stop doing is accusing everyone of being against you. The world is not against you, nor is it out to get you. If you want something, then you need to be the one to go out and get it.

Please read post #3. This thread is not for discourse about me specifically.

 

[jasin]

I don't think anyone has said anything discriminating at all

Then you are not looking at things objectively because policies that discriminate against the deaf are being promoted on here and elsewhere.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Then you are not looking at things objectively because policies that discriminate against the deaf are being promoted on here and elsewhere.

Sigh......saying, "this is what the policy is" is not the same as "i support the policy." Not a single person is trying to perpetuate any type of discrimination. They are informing you of the policy. No one is promoting any policy. Saying "deaf people cannot hear" is not the same as "deaf people can't do anything." There has been nothing but statements of facts. You really like to think it is discrimination, but not a single post on the entire forum has been discriminatory in nature.

 

[Deekle]

Jasin, why the rancor? If you're upset by something that someone has said on these boards, why not address those posts specifically? Why start a new thread throwing unsubstantiated and inadequately described accusations and recriminations at ill-defined targets? As far as I know, SDN is a resource center, not a policy maker. Policy for educational institutions is established by and at those institutions. The same goes for medical institutions. If it's a policy you are fighting, then you are fighting your war at the wrong front.

 

[lkthlttr]

Why start a new thread throwing unsubstantiated and inadequately described accusations and recriminations at ill-defined targets?

Because he is a troll. Many people have given him the benefit of the doubt, but at this point it seems pretty clear that he's just trying (and succeeding) in riling everybody up. He's found an angle that seems to have worked and is running with it as long as people continue to respond to his nonsense. The only way to deal with trolls is to put them on your ignore list, and do not respond directly to anything they say. No doubt he will respond to this in an inflammatory fashion, but I will not return the favor and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

 

[K31]

Jasin, give it up already. None of us are trying to say that the deaf can't be physicians. We're just trying to point out that if you want to take that path you are going to face certain difficulties that hearing people don't.

All you are accomplishing by arguing and accusing us of prejudice is making people ignore you and getting your threads locked.

 

[Neurocentric]

Because he is a troll. Many people have given him the benefit of the doubt, but at this point it seems pretty clear that he's just trying (and succeeding) in riling everybody up. He's found an angle that seems to have worked and is running with it as long as people continue to respond to his nonsense. The only way to deal with trolls is to put them on your ignore list, and do not respond directly to anything they say. No doubt he will respond to this in an inflammatory fashion, but I will not return the favor and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

If he's a troll, then why hasn't he been banned? I mean, we've seen tons of people like this that have been banned, so why can't this just be another instance of that? He never actually gives meaningful things to say, he just argues.

 

[lkthlttr]

If he's a troll, then why hasn't he been banned? I mean, we've seen tons of people like this that have been banned, so why can't this just be another instance of that? He never actually gives meaningful things to say, he just argues.

To me it seems that he's taking great care not to actually insult anyone or violate any of the terms of service. Instead he's just taking quotes out of context and making inflammatory statements of "Discrimination! Audism!" Maybe I'm wrong, and he's just thick skulled, but I doubt it.

 

[MedWonk]

Please read post #3. This thread is not for discourse about me specifically.

You're welcome.

 

[Gigantron]

I don't think anyone has said anything discriminating at all, the op is just hearing things. ..

 

[FrkyBgStok]

To me it seems that he's taking great care not to actually insult anyone or violate any of the terms of service. Instead he's just taking quotes out of context and making inflammatory statements of "Discrimination! Audism!" Maybe I'm wrong, and he's just thick skulled, but I doubt it.

i feel ashamed. i know you are right, and I knew you were right before. i shall go cry alone in the shower.

 

[Neurocentric]

To me it seems that he's taking great care not to actually insult anyone or violate any of the terms of service. Instead he's just taking quotes out of context and making inflammatory statements of "Discrimination! Audism!" Maybe I'm wrong, and he's just thick skulled, but I doubt it.

I get what you're saying. The problem is that he will just keep making threads like this until someone bows down and tells him he will get into medical school and he will be a wonderful physician, but it's hard to say that. Maybe we should just let him crash and burn.

He's put me on ignore, so he'll never respond to any of my responses. Probably for the best. This guy pisses and moans more than girls.. and I'm a girl!

 

[lkthlttr]

i feel ashamed. i know you are right, and I knew you were right before. i shall go cry alone in the shower.

Hey, congrats on DMU! I remember reading a while back that it was your first choice. Glad to hear everything worked out.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I get what you're saying. The problem is that he will just keep making threads like this until someone bows down and tells him he will get into medical school and he will be a wonderful physician, but it's hard to say that. Maybe we should just let him crash and burn.

He's put me on ignore, so he'll never respond to any of my responses. Probably for the best. This guy pisses and moans more than girls.. and I'm a girl!

LMAO!

Hey, congrats on DMU! I remember reading a while back that it was your first choice. Glad to hear everything worked out.

Thanks, I really appreciate it. I am pretty pumped.

 

[jasin]

Jasin, why the rancor? If you're upset by something that someone has said on these boards, why not address those posts specifically? Why start a new thread throwing unsubstantiated and inadequately described accusations and recriminations at ill-defined targets? As far as I know, SDN is a resource center, not a policy maker. Policy for educational institutions is established by and at those institutions. The same goes for medical institutions. If it's a policy you are fighting, then you are fighting your war at the wrong front.

No one said SDN is making policies and/or anyone specifically here is. The statement I made actually addressed those who "promoted" policies that discriminate NOT the making of them. If you actually read the statement I made you would know this. Please go back and reread my statement. Thank You

see: Post #9

 

[Deekle]

You're evading my question. No promotion of policy can take place if no policy is in place in the first place. (Which there isn't by your own admission.) In point of fact, no official policy of a medical or educational institution has been discussed. You have vaguely accused unknown persons in an open manner, broadly painting a nebulous "them" as discriminatory. It should not be difficult for you to give examples of official policy which you deem inappropriate or discriminatory and then point out individuals who have promoted said policies on these boards; (if in fact anything of the sort has occured.) Until you do, your claims are unsubstantiated and thus invalid and useless.

 

[tantacles]

Hey, guys. Just stopped in to say that deaf people can't be doctors!

Be well! Prosper! Eat candy!

 

[Deekle]

Hey, guys. Just stopped in to say that deaf people can't be doctors!

Be well! Prosper! Eat candy!

Just to be clear, are you quoting official policy or simply sharing your own, personal opinion?

 

[poppie910]

Well, it looks like we wont be hearing from him for a while...

 

[MedWonk]

God I hope someone closes this thread. This is starting to get annoying.

 

[scarshapedstar]

I can't see what you did there, because I'm blind. This post was extremely offensive to me.

 

[tantacles]

Just to be clear, are you quoting official policy or simply sharing your own, personal opinion?

It's clearly the official policy of every medical school ever. Haven't you heard?

 

[Deekle]

It's clearly the official policy of every medical school ever. Haven't you heard?

Nope, hadn't heard that. Please post said policy verbatim. I believe it's right below the policy on sarcasm. (Betcha didn't know that medical schools had that one did you?)

 

[dmf2682]

Well, it looks like we wont be hearing from him for a while...

the poop in the pudding is he'll probably be back.

at least he's entertaining!

 

[Neurocentric]

the poop in the pudding is he'll probably be back.

at least he's entertaining!

Do mods do that or does the person request a hold?

Sent from my AT100 using Tapatalk

 

[PJ meowerton]

Do mods do that or does the person request a hold?

Sent from my AT100 using Tapatalk

mods

 

[tantacles]

Nope, hadn't heard that. Please post said policy verbatim. I believe it's right below the policy on sarcasm. (Betcha didn't know that medical schools had that one did you?)

I think they only have that policy for people who don't understand that they're asshats. I, however, fully understand the exact extent of my tooldom, and thus, the policy would likely not affect me.

And on every medical school's website, in fine print at the bottom, it says:

HEY CAN YOU HEAR THIS IF NOT YOU CAN'T COME HERE.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Who is Jasin anyway? I've notice all of a sudden he/she is in every thread.

Want to be a deaf doctor? Cool story, bro. Just make sure you can perform your job. That is all. Seriously, who discriminates deaf people? Out of all discriminated groups, I never hear (no pun intended) about them.

 

[Neurocentric]

Who is Jasin anyway? I've notice all of a sudden he/she is in every thread.

Want to be a deaf doctor? Cool story, bro. Just make sure you can perform your job. That is all. Seriously, who discriminates deaf people? Out of all discriminated groups, I never hear (no pun intended) about them.

He's just some guy who was probably told that medical school would be hard because he's deaf, and so he comes here to bitch at everyone. If you try to ask him, he just calls you an audist.

Sent from my AT100 using Tapatalk

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

"I hereby certify that I have examined and performed a physical on the student listed above and have concluded that he/she appears to have the physical and mental capabilities to function in the capacity required. It appears that he/she is free from any health impairment which is of potential risk to patients or which might interfere with the performance of his/her duties" (FYI, this is a quote from the physicals I am required to have in order to matriculate)

how would a deaf person know what sounds are emanating from the stethoscope? Just curious, not really sure how you get around that... anyone?

 

[scarshapedstar]

"I hereby certify that I have examined and performed a physical on the student listed above and have concluded that he/she appears to have the physical and mental capabilities to function in the capacity required. It appears that he/she is free from any health impairment which is of potential risk to patients or which might interfere with the performance of his/her duties" (FYI, this is a quote from the physicals I am required to have in order to matriculate)

how would a deaf person know what sounds are emanating from the stethoscope? Just curious, not really sure how you get around that... anyone?

Cochlear implants. My vet has them, and he can use a stethoscope just fine. But there's also this 'deaf is beautiful' movement that says the implants are evil...

There's even digital stethoscopes that give you a visual waveform like an oscilloscope, which I would kinda like even though I'm not deaf, I've loved that stuff ever since I took DSP.

 

[jasin]

You're evading my question. No promotion of policy can take place if no policy is in place in the first place. (Which there isn't by your own admission.) In point of fact, no official policy of a medical or educational institution has been discussed. You have vaguely accused unknown persons in an open manner, broadly painting a nebulous "them" as discriminatory. It should not be difficult for you to give examples of official policy which you deem inappropriate or discriminatory and then point out individuals who have promoted said policies on these boards; (if in fact anything of the sort has occured.) Until you do, your claims are unsubstantiated and thus invalid and useless.

Medical schools can't enforce and/or mandate policies against the Deaf that discriminate against them.

 

[jasin]

"I hereby certify that I have examined and performed a physical on the student listed above and have concluded that he/she appears to have the physical and mental capabilities to function in the capacity required. It appears that he/she is free from any health impairment which is of potential risk to patients or which might interfere with the performance of his/her duties" (FYI, this is a quote from the physicals I am required to have in order to matriculate)

how would a deaf person know what sounds are emanating from the stethoscope? Just curious, not really sure how you get around that... anyone?

The technological challenges in a Deaf person practicing medicine is a thing of the past.

I suggest you have a look at http://www.amphl.org/stethoscopes.php

 

[jasin]

Who is Jasin anyway? I've notice all of a sudden he/she is in every thread.

Want to be a deaf doctor? Cool story, bro. Just make sure you can perform your job. That is all. Seriously, who discriminates deaf people? Out of all discriminated groups, I never hear (no pun intended) about them.

Well, I should make clear that some of what I have witnessed on here and elsewhere is not all discrimination some of it is Audism. Nevertheless, Audism is just as equally bad ... if not worse.

 

[jasin]

"he/she is free from any health impairment which is of potential risk to patients or which might interfere with the performance of his/her duties"

"Impaired" is not really used a lot these days in referring to the deaf. Most Otolaryngologist these days, at least the ones I have visited, use terms like deaf, Hard of Hearing, hearing loss, severe hearing loss, profound hearing loss, etc.

 

[dmf2682]

Welcome back Jasin. For a while I had to turn to the pre-allo forum and watching cake boss on netflix for my online entertainment. Now I can enjoy your tomfoolery from the comfort of non-trad.

Begin.

 

[Neurocentric]

Welcome back Jasin. For a while I had to turn to the pre-allo forum and watching cake boss on netflix for my online entertainment. Now I can enjoy your tomfoolery from the comfort of non-trad.

Begin.

Seriously. He's got me blocked, so he can't see anything I say, but I don't understand why people haven't gotten it into their heads that nothing you say will be agreed with by him. He'll just continue to say that medical schools cannot discriminate and of course the deaf can be doctors.. after all, there are some.

 

[jasin]

Welcome back Jasin.

Thank You Kindly.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Well, I should make clear that some of what I have witnessed on here and elsewhere is not all discrimination some of it is Audism. Nevertheless, Audism is just as equally bad ... if not worse.

I don't know what audism is and am not going to bother looking it up since it seems what people are saying is a) it seems some schools may have a problem with deaf students due to their (perceived) inability to perform all job functions, and b) but if you can perform all job functions, then go to medical school. I don't know anyone else's experience, but I've had classmates that are deaf and have had classmates with all kinds of other disabilities. More of than not, people are actually willing to go the extra mile to help them, so at least my experience in academia (in Northern California) is that being deaf is not a reason to stop you from an education.

 

[poppie910]

Yay, he's back. Welcome back Jasin!.. now if you'll excuse me, im going to run my head into a wall.

 

[jasin]

I don't know what audism is and am not going to bother looking it up since it seems what people are saying is a) it seems some schools may have a problem with deaf students due to their (perceived) inability to perform all job functions, and b) but if you can perform all job functions, then go to medical school. I don't know anyone else's experience, but I've had classmates that are deaf and have had classmates with all kinds of other disabilities. More of than not, people are actually willing to go the extra mile to help them, so at least my experience in academia (in Northern California) is that being deaf is not a reason to stop you from an education.

And that's because of the continued stereotypes and misconceptions hearing people have about the Deaf. It should not be that way though, especially with medical schools. When it comes to medical schools its doctors we are speaking of. Medical schools are ran by doctors and doctors of all people should be the first to know that these stereotypes and misconceptions are all false. They of all people should know that deafness does not prevent a person's limbs from moving or their vocal cords from making sounds. They should also know that deafness does not affect, negatively, a person's a ability to think and reason either.

 

[jasin]

Yay, he's back. Welcome back Jasin!.. now if you'll excuse me, im going to run my head into a wall.

You have a problem with the facts I post?

 

[poppie910]

You have such a problem with the facts I post?

No not at all.





Its more your attitude, reluctance to accept others opinions, and your sheer ridiculousness. (That of which being the dictionary's definition, not the thesaurus's. Which is in no way the same thing.)