Dentists

[fun8stuff]

I don't understand this whole debate with pods being called physicians. I view pods (I want to be one) like dentists...specialists in their area. When I was in law school there was a chiro. near where I lived who called himself a chiro. physician. I thought he was an MD/DC until I came to this site. Being called a physician for billing is acceptable in my opinion, but I would refrain from using the term when dealing with the public for the confusion it can create. I agree with one of the previous posters who said that pods lack the training of physicians. It makes sense since MD/DO students do 2 years of rotations plus their residency which is at minimum of 3 years. Being a pod and specializing in foot/ankle issues is nothing to be ashamed...it's still difficult schooling and important work. I will be proud to call myself a pod. and I hope the others on this site do too.

i agree 100%

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[novacek88]

I think someone needs to remind podiatrists that most people question if their services are even needed in the first place. Dentists serve a need and provide a service that physicians don't attend to. Podiatrists don't do anything that a foot and ankle orthopedic surgeon, a regular orthopedic surgeon and a family practice physician can't address. I would never see a podiatrist if I needed foot and ankle surgery. Do you ever hear of professional athletes seeing a podiatrist for major surgery on the lower extremity, hell no! Okay, I'm sure some pod will pull some random professional athlete who saw a podiatrist once but the vast majority prefer foot and ankle surgeons over podiatrists. Orthopedic foot and ankle surgeons charge higher fees and have a longer wait time so some desperate patient who can't afford to see one of these docs will settle on seeing a podiatrist.

The podiatrists living in rural areas and less populated areas might do a fair number of surgeries because they don't have to worry about competition from orthopedic surgeons. But in any major metropolitan area, podiatrists are essentially limited to clipping diabetic's toe nails, dealing with in-grown toe nails and administering sores and fungus on feet. And the only reason they get enough of that business is because Ortho, FP and IM refer these cases to them because they would rather not deal with those messy foot issues. I was bored so I checked out the podiatry forum. There are so many threads in which ex-podiatry students warn current students to drop out. And there are even more threads where podiatry students express their regret with their decision to attend podiatry school. Maybe some small hospital out in BFE or Des Moines might be desperate enough to have a podiatrist teach medical students but no self-respecting teaching hospital in a metropolitan area would make a podiatrist chief of surgery or an attending with any major authority over medical students.

Your admissions process is pretty much non-existant. Any school that is willing to take three different standardized tests shows you that they are desperate for students. The best podiatry school (DMU) has an avg MCAT of 22 and a 3.4 GPA when most of them will take anyone with a 3.0 and a pulse. This is from the Ohio College of Podiatric Medicine: "We generally look for candidates who have a science and cumulative GPA in the range of a 3.0 average. Our most recent incoming classes have had overall GPAs ranging from 3.07-3.09."

Trust me, you guys have many other issues to worry about other than being called physicians. The idea that you are making such a big deal of this physician labeling is a joke. You should just be happy that anyone acknowledges you at all.

 

[toofache32]

... If you wanted this, you should have retook some classes, boosted your GPA, retook the MCAT, and applied again to med school. Good Luck to you...

.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

I think this thread needs to be closed soon by a moderator but I'll throw in my 2 cents before it gets closed. Why this topic is at hand I have no idea... it seems to be pretty black and white.

Where it the gray area in the following?
D.O. / M.D. = Physician
DDS/DMD = Dentist
Podiatrist = Podiatrist
Chiropractor = Chiropractor

And all of the above and many more people can call themselves a doctor of whatever they studied. So what's the problem. We need all levels of people in this world. We need garbage collectors or the world would be a mess, we need schools and professors to educate the world, we need the above for all the healthcare they provide... take it easy people. Nobody is more important than the other - everybody is NEEDED and deserves respect.

 

[blotterspotter]

Question, should I get a platinum grill or white gold? Any suggestions? Apparently, that'll definetly get you girls so I think I'll focus on that rather than on what name I'll be called.

 

[IlizaRob]

I think someone needs to remind podiatrists that most people question if their services are even needed in the first place. Dentists serve a need and provide a service that physicians don't attend to. Podiatrists don't do anything that a foot and ankle orthopedic surgeon, a regular orthopedic surgeon and a family practice physician can't address. I would never see a podiatrist if I needed foot and ankle surgery. Do you ever hear of professional athletes seeing a podiatrist for major surgery on the lower extremity, hell no! Okay, I'm sure some pod will pull some random professional athlete who saw a podiatrist once but the vast majority prefer foot and ankle surgeons over podiatrists. Orthopedic foot and ankle surgeons charge higher fees and have a longer wait time so some desperate patient who can't afford to see one of these docs will settle on seeing a podiatrist.

The podiatrists living in rural areas and less populated areas might do a fair number of surgeries because they don't have to worry about competition from orthopedic surgeons. But in any major metropolitan area, podiatrists are essentially limited to clipping diabetic's toe nails, dealing with in-grown toe nails and administering sores and fungus on feet. And the only reason they get enough of that business is because Ortho, FP and IM refer these cases to them because they would rather not deal with those messy foot issues. I was bored so I checked out the podiatry forum. There are so many threads in which ex-podiatry students warn current students to drop out. And there are even more threads where podiatry students express their regret with their decision to attend podiatry school. Maybe some small hospital out in BFE or Des Moines might be desperate enough to have a podiatrist teach medical students but no self-respecting teaching hospital in a metropolitan area would make a podiatrist chief of surgery or an attending with any major authority over medical students.

Your admissions process is pretty much non-existant. Any school that is willing to take three different standardized tests shows you that they are desperate for students. The best podiatry school (DMU) has an avg MCAT of 22 and a 3.4 GPA when most of them will take anyone with a 3.0 and a pulse. This is from the Ohio College of Podiatric Medicine: "We generally look for candidates who have a science and cumulative GPA in the range of a 3.0 average. Our most recent incoming classes have had overall GPAs ranging from 3.07-3.09."

Trust me, you guys have many other issues to worry about other than being called physicians. The idea that you are making such a big deal of this physician labeling is a joke. You should just be happy that anyone acknowledges you at all.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those who tirelessly researched the podiatric profession and brought to light unbiased facts about its training, education and average MCAT scores. It feels good to know that there exist future practitioners of all types who maintain a strong sense of humility and respect for other members of the health care team. It is unfortunate however that our character and integrity is not defined by our career. Thank you all for your kind words.

I would also like to apologize for starting the "physician" debate when I voiced my opinion about the title "physician" not being a big deal. Apparently some of you disagree with me and that’s fine. I could care less if you think I or a dentist should or should not be called a "physician". I only thought it was a petty argument. This whole notion about pods not being proud of being a pod is ridiculous, I am proud of my choice of career. If I wanted to be anything else I would have applied to a program offering a different degree. Again, I appreciate the support. Its good to know that the opinions expressed on SDN represent the general opinion of the health care work force.

 

[rahulazcom]

Question, should I get a platinum grill or white gold? Any suggestions? Apparently, that'll definetly get you girls so I think I'll focus on that rather than on what name I'll be called.

I hope you are talking about your Caddy and not your mouth.

 

[rahulazcom]

I would also like to apologize for starting the "physician" debate when I voiced my opinion about the title "physician" not being a big deal. Apparently some of you disagree with me and that’s fine. I could care less if you think I or a dentist should or should not be called a "physician".

In all fairness to the dentists, don't drag them into this debate. They were not the ones that had issues with not being called a physician.

 

[IlizaRob]

In all fairness to the dentists, don't drag them into this debate. They were not the ones that had issues with not being called a physician.

Please rahilazcom. Go back and read the thread. I responded to a dentist who did not agree that dentists should be called physicians. Leave your ego at the door. You're embarrassing yourself!

 

[cheer_up]

I think this thread needs to be closed soon by a moderator but I'll throw in my 2 cents before it gets closed. Why this topic is at hand I have no idea... it seems to be pretty black and white.

Where it the gray area in the following?
D.O. / M.D. = Physician
DDS/DMD = Dentist
Podiatrist = Podiatrist
Chiropractor = Chiropractor

And all of the above and many more people can call themselves a doctor of whatever they studied. So what's the problem. We need all levels of people in this world. We need garbage collectors or the world would be a mess, we need schools and professors to educate the world, we need the above for all the healthcare they provide... take it easy people. Nobody is more important than the other - everybody is NEEDED and deserves respect.

Totally agree with ya and well said

 

[rahulazcom]

Please rahilazcom. Go back and read the thread. I responded to a dentist who did not agree that dentists should be called physicians. Leave your ego at the door. You're embarrassing yourself!

You asked if there was a difference in curriculum between your podiatry program and a DO program. When I answered your question, you didn't acknowledge my answer because you didn't like it. I'm sorry if you have failed to convince others that your training is identical to that of a physician but it isn't. I'm just stating a fact. It has nothing to do with ego. I have a great respect for your field and podiatrists in general. I just wish you felt the same way.

 

[novacek88]

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those who tirelessly researched the podiatric profession and brought to light unbiased facts about its training, education and average MCAT scores..

Don't you mean average DAT, GRE and MCAT scores. I'm assuming they don't take the LSAT?

 

[IlizaRob]

You asked if there was a difference in curriculum between your podiatry program and a DO program. When I answered your question, you didn't acknowledge my answer because you didn't like it. I'm sorry if you believe your training is identical to that of a physician but it isn't. I'm just stating a fact. It has nothing to do with ego. I have a great respect for your field and podiatrists in general. I just wish you felt the same way.

Ok? That was random. I didnt respond to you because it would not have mattered what I said. I asked for what you thought and you gave it to me. There was no need to continue. However I will take this as an interest to learn more. AzPod is new, I dont know what their rotations include because it has never happened yet. Neither do you. Thats why I thinks its funny that you consider yourself an expert on the matter. Our 3rd and 4th year are clinicals. Although much of that is podiatric surgery and medicine we do have rotations in various fields such as IM. The majority of our exposure to other specialties comes from the 1st year of residency, where we rotate through ER, general surgery, FP, peds, plastics, cardiology etc. We are treated as a resident of that specialty and are required to perform as such. We take ER call and treat the patients as anyone else would. Although it is not in our scope while practicing, it is in our scope as a resident. I dont think they would let us do this if they thought we were incompetent. I agree that your clinical exposure is more extensive to IM and other related fields considering we spend more time on the lower extremity. We are not trying to be MDs here. But it is imperative that we are also knowledgeable about the body as a whole considering the many systemic conditions that manifest themselves in the lower extremity.

Bottom line glendale boy, I dont care if you call me a physician or not. It will not change the way I practice, only the way I am reimbursed. Just be prepared to see it in literature such as journal articles, even from JAMA. (Im not going to research it for you and provide links, I dont care if you believe me). I see "Podiatric Physician" used in the media a lot too. It seems the public has handled it ok. I dont see what the big issue is. If they took the title away, who cares? I wouldnt be angry at that either. You guys are too concerned about meaningless issues. Spend your little, yet valuable time elsewhere.

 

[IlizaRob]

Don't you mean average DAT, GRE and MCAT scores. I'm assuming they don't take the LSAT?

Why are you people in medical school? Read the post. Only the MCAT scores were addressed. Wow! I feel like Im trying to have a conversation with monkeys.

 

[novacek88]

Why are you people in medical school? Read the post. Only the MCAT scores were addressed. Wow! I feel like Im trying to have a conversation with monkeys.

Please indicate where I was wrong about average MCAT scores? The average MCAT for the class of 2009 at DMU was a 22. Let me guess, you will ignore me because "you don't have time to research the answer" aka "I can't contradict what you said because it's true." If you really wanted to be a physician, why didn't you at least go to the Caribbean? Oh wait, I think even Ross requires the MCAT. Sorry, I guess they wouldn't take your GRE score like DMU.

Send me a PM. I'll see if I can get you into my alma mater. It's not too late you know. There are several ex-pods in medical school these days. That way you can yourself a physician and no else will laugh.

 

[IlizaRob]

Uh, yeah I do. Here is the link: http://www.midwestern.edu/azpod/

Just click on curriculum on the left bar. It has their 3rd and 4th year schedule displayed.



I'm aware of this. However, the point is you don't do the exact same rotations that medical students undergo. So when you asked what the difference between your training and a DO's training, the answer is we do a different set of clinical rotations.



That's nice but you don't have the same responsibilities as medical students during those residencies. I know that you are exposed to these areas but the point is it's not the same experience as a medical resident.



I'm aware that podiatrists must have knowledge of these areas however, you just admitted that you are not trying to be MD's (DO's). The point is MD's and DO's are physicians. So if you are not trying to be them then why do you want to referred to as one? If you don't have the same training then why should you have the same title?

I agree with everything you said here except for the part where pods dont have the same responsibilities in residency as MD/DOs. They do, but its just for the duration of the rotation. We are arguing different things though. It all depends on the definition of "physician". Your def is an MD/DO. Thats fine. I agree with everything you say under that definition. With the increasing involvement of other health care practitioners (non MD/DO) in the management of the patient, I tend to define Physician differently. This is a topic that is actually being discussed in a class I am currently taking for my Masters in Heath Administration. There are many opinions on both sides just like we see here on SDN, although in class the arguments are presented in a more professional manner. So at this point, lets just agree to disagree, professionally.

 

[IlizaRob]

Please indicate where I was wrong about average MCAT scores? The average MCAT for the class of 2009 at DMU was a 22. Let me guess, you will ignore me because "you don't have time to research the answer" aka "I can't contradict what you said because it's true." If you really wanted to be a physician, why didn't you at least go to the Caribbean? Oh wait, I think even Ross requires the MCAT. Sorry, I guess they wouldn't take your GRE score like DMU.

Send me a PM. I'll see if I can get you into my alma mater. It's not too late you know. There are several ex-pods in medical school these days. That way you can yourself a physician and no else will laugh.

Your personal attacks are untactful and unprofessional. I wasnt contesting the MCAT scores themselves. Just explaining why I only said MCAT scores and not MCAT, GRE, and DAT scores as you had asked in your post. the MCAT was the only test that was addressed in the post I was responding to. You must be really confused.

 

[novacek88]

I agree with everything you said here except for the part where pods dont have the same responsibilities in residency as MD/DOs. They do, but its just for the duration of the rotation.

Where are you getting your information? I swear it's like talking to a David Koresh follower, do they brainwash you this much. Unlike you, I'm actually a resident; an IM resident to be more specific. We have podiatry residents rotate at my hospital. They have completely different responsibilities. Half the time, I'm instructed by my attending to teach the podiatry students since my attending doesn't want to bother doing it. I had to teach one how to intubate a patient the other day which is something they should have learned during their third year of rotations. They had absolutely no clue. The others can't write SOAP notes to save their lives. You guys don't have to show up at 5 AM to pre-round on patients. And half the time, you aren't required to be at morning report. I suggest you do a better job researching your information because you have no idea what you are talking about. Their call schedule is a joke too. We beg our attending if some of the pods can take call for us but he smiles and looks the other way. To hear someone say they have the same responsibilities makes my ribs hurt from laughing so hard.

 

[IlizaRob]

Where are you getting your information? I swear it's like talking to a David Koresh follower, do they brainwash you this much. Unlike you, I'm actually a resident; an IM resident to be more specific. We have podiatry residents rotate at my hospital. They have completely different responsibilities. Half the time, I'm instructed by my attending to teach the podiatry students since my attending doesn't want to bother doing it. I had to teach one how to intubate a patient the other day which is something they should have learned during their third year of rotations. They had absolutely no clue. The others can't write SOAP notes to save their lives. You guys don't have to show up at 5 AM to pre-round on patients. And half the time, you aren't required to be at morning report. I suggest you do a better job researching your information because you have no idea what you are talking about. Their call schedule is a joke too. We beg our attending if some of the pods can take call for us but he smiles and looks the other way. To hear someone say they have the same responsibilities makes my ribs hurt from laughing so hard.

Well, I guess some programs arent the way they should be. Dont generalize based on your one program. I know and talk to many residents both podiatric and allo. Not everything is the way it is where you are. But that doesnt matter. I see that you have already developed your own personal opinion about pods and it probably wont change. Too bad. Many pods are good poeple and dont deserve your lack of respect. As for myself, I have been entertained enough here. Burt may I ask what program you are at?

 

[DrMom]

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[fun8stuff]

Where are you getting your information? I swear it's like talking to a David Koresh follower, do they brainwash you this much. Unlike you, I'm actually a resident; an IM resident to be more specific. We have podiatry residents rotate at my hospital. They have completely different responsibilities. Half the time, I'm instructed by my attending to teach the podiatry students since my attending doesn't want to bother doing it. I had to teach one how to intubate a patient the other day which is something they should have learned during their third year of rotations. They had absolutely no clue. The others can't write SOAP notes to save their lives. You guys don't have to show up at 5 AM to pre-round on patients. And half the time, you aren't required to be at morning report. I suggest you do a better job researching your information because you have no idea what you are talking about. Their call schedule is a joke too. We beg our attending if some of the pods can take call for us but he smiles and looks the other way. To hear someone say they have the same responsibilities makes my ribs hurt from laughing so hard.

I have a couple friends at 2 diff pod schools and from experience i have shadwoing at 2 different places, this is pretty much an accurate description of what I have encountered... which is how i have formed my opinion. Obviously, podiatrists only need to be trained well with dealing with problems with the foot... and this is what their training affords. I do not know why they want to argue otherwise.

 

[novacek88]

Well, I guess some programs arent the way they should be. Dont generalize based on your one program. I know and talk to many residents both podiatric and allo. Not everything is the way it is where you are. But that doesnt matter. I see that you have already developed your own personal opinion about pods and it probably wont change. Too bad. Many pods are good poeple and dont deserve your lack of respect. As for myself, I have been entertained enough here. Burt may I ask what program you are at?

What makes you think your pod residents can recognize the difference in training? The ones at my program have no clue. And we are too busy and professional to remind them of the distinction. They just assume they have the same responsibilities. This naivete seems to be common among podiatry students. You assumed your training was the same as a DO student's a few pages ago. This leads me to think that podiatry schools feed their students a lot of propaganda; they are trying to convince their students they have the same training as physicians. Your assumptions were wrong then and they are wrong now. It's unfortunate that you are unwilling to concede a point despite people having more experience and knowledge on this matter. All you are doing is displaying your ignorance and further embarrassing yourself.

And this doesn't occur at just my program. Even as a medical student, I rotated at other programs with pods and they got to go home early and were not allowed the autonomy we were. They didn't have to learn how to put in central lines as an example. A lot of them were not required to do ICU either. If you want an accurate idea of whether you are doing the same work, talk to a medical resident and not a podiatry resident. What do you really expect your colleauges to say: "No, we don't have the same responsibilities. The medical students are required to do much more than us."

Regardless, you are a second year podiatry student. You haven't started rotations much less a residency. When you are in a qualified position to provide an opinion, I'm sure you will offer one then. Listen kid, you will probably never learn the distinction because your future medical attendings are too polite to inform you of how little you are doing in comparison to the medical residents. And frankly, there is no reason to inform you of this distinction because you are not physicians and thus you don't require the same training for your position as podiatrists.

 

[SigPi]

I think this thread needs to be closed soon by a moderator but I'll throw in my 2 cents before it gets closed. Why this topic is at hand I have no idea... it seems to be pretty black and white.

Where it the gray area in the following?
D.O. / M.D. = Physician
DDS/DMD = Dentist
Podiatrist = Podiatrist
Chiropractor = Chiropractor

And all of the above and many more people can call themselves a doctor of whatever they studied. So what's the problem. We need all levels of people in this world. We need garbage collectors or the world would be a mess, we need schools and professors to educate the world, we need the above for all the healthcare they provide... take it easy people. Nobody is more important than the other - everybody is NEEDED and deserves respect.

well put.

 

[IlizaRob]

What makes you think your pod residents can recognize the difference in training? The ones at my program have no clue. And we are too busy and professional to remind them of the distinction. They just assume they have the same responsibilities. This naivete seems to be common among podiatry students. You assumed your training was the same as a DO student's a few pages ago. This leads me to think that podiatry schools feed their students a lot of propaganda; they are trying to convince their students they have the same training as physicians. Your assumptions were wrong then and they are wrong now. It's unfortunate that you are unwilling to concede a point despite people having more experience and knowledge on this matter. All you are doing is displaying your ignorance and further embarrassing yourself.

And this doesn't occur at just my program. Even as a medical student, I rotated at other programs with pods and they got to go home early and were not allowed the autonomy we were. They didn't have to learn how to put in central lines as an example. A lot of them were not required to do ICU either. If you want an accurate idea of whether you are doing the same work, talk to a medical resident and not a podiatry resident. What do you really expect your colleauges to say: "No, we don't have the same responsibilities. The medical students are required to do much more than us."

Regardless, you are a second year podiatry student. You haven't started rotations much less a residency. When you are in a qualified position to provide an opinion, I'm sure you will offer one then. Listen kid, you will probably never learn the distinction because your future medical attendings are too polite to inform you of how little you are doing in comparison to the medical residents. And frankly, there is no reason to inform you of this distinction because you are not physicians and thus you don't require the same training for your position as podiatrists.

Ok people, calm down. For crying out loud get a hold yourself. I never said Podiatrists were the same as MDs. I was only giving an opinion on the definition of "physician". Im sorry you are upset. I did not intend to offend your greatness. It is clear that you are very smart and as a podiatric student, I am intellectually challenged. Just for clarification, I mentioned in my previous post that I talked to both podiatric and medical residents. Maybe all those whom I spoke with are exceptions to the rule. Lets just take a deep breath, and try to be more civil. After all, this is the internet. No need to prove yourself.

 

[oldManDO2009]

I am glad there are specialties such as dentistry (I have not dealt with podiatry in the ER) - couple of recent cases…

A lady came in to the ER complaining of sinus discomfort (frontal and maxillary) and pain in her upper jaw/teeth. Clearly, irritation of the maxillary nerve (trigeminal V3) - no need for a dentist and an easy diagnosis.

A young guy came in complaining of lower jaw/tooth pain and denied trauma to the face and unlikely impingement of the alveolar nerve – now what? Call a frakin dentist because other than that it would be a disservice to the patient to continue (IMHO) since it is not something a physician could routinely treat. Yes, we can hand out some vicoden and an antibiotic but in the end you need to go see a dentist and we are only putting off the inevitable.

So like everything else –no one person knows it all! Other specialties have a legitimate role in healthcare and I am always grateful they are out there to help out the patient – because I do not know it all!

I am only a first year and I work weekends in the ER (as an RN) because my kids apparently have to eat – so I really don’t know it all