Dismissed in 4th year over step2. PLEASE HELP

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sarcasticbunny

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Hello, I'm new to SDN so bear with me please.
I was dismissed this week from a US medical school after completing all of my 1-4th year requirements because I failed step 2CK for the 3rd time. The NMBE website currently has no caps on the amount of times one can attempt each step and announced that in Jan 2012 it's capping it at 6 attempts per step. I've only had 3 and my school is saying they have a 3 strikes policy for step 2. Can they do this? I have finished literally EVERYTHING else and passing 2CS is not a requirement for graduation from this school, just passing 2CK. They are messing with MY LIFE here! I want to appeal but they have no precedent for this and so I have no blueprint. Anybody got some good advice or know a good lawyer in VA who deals with this kind of stuff?

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You need to check with your school over whether they have a policy on the number of attempts to pass each step. If so, then yes, they can dismiss you. Their school, their rules. Doesn't mean you can't appeal it, and I certainly would. But you need to find out what the academic policies and procedures are.
 
Hello, I'm new to SDN so bear with me please.
I was dismissed this week from a US medical school after completing all of my 1-4th year requirements because I failed step 2CK for the 3rd time. The NMBE website currently has no caps on the amount of times one can attempt each step and announced that in Jan 2012 it's capping it at 6 attempts per step. I've only had 3 and my school is saying they have a 3 strikes policy for step 2. Can they do this? I have finished literally EVERYTHING else and passing 2CS is not a requirement for graduation from this school, just passing 2CK. They are messing with MY LIFE here! I want to appeal but they have no precedent for this and so I have no blueprint. Anybody got some good advice or know a good lawyer in VA who deals with this kind of stuff?

I don't know if you are a new poster or the same poster that posted about being dismissed after a 3rd CK attempt before. Nevertheless, I am sorry to hear about your situation. Have you applied for residency already?

Unfortunately although there hasn't been thus far a cap on the # of attempts by the NBME, some states will not license you after a # of failed attempts, which varies by state. I don't know if that is correlated by the state where your school is located and that is the reason why they cap you at the # of attempts or not. I know my school does not have a cap on the # of attempts. I would suggest you try to talk to faculty, deans, etc and definitely appeal your decision. Come up with a well thought out plan as to what went wrong, and how you can improve your study plan and pass.

I am certainly not going to lecture you on the steps since I definitely understand that they can be a challenge, but definitely think about what's going wrong in the test taking. I think that it is possible for you to appeal and if you have the support of faculty who have worked with you and can testify to your skills, committment, etc. and especially if the rest of your record has no red flags, i think it's possible that they'll give you another chance. But please be sure that you are able to pass the next time around.

Lastly, whether fair or not, unfortunately residency options will be limited by failing step 2ck 3 times. I do think however that after all the time and energy spent on coming this far, you should at least be able to graduate, even if residency options will be limited.

Best of luck
 
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Thank you for response Dermpath. I am currently trying to garner some faculty support. I have one faculty member who is working on a letter to the Dean and who was there with me every day while I was studying the third time around and another who has said they would be willing to talk to the dean on my behalf. I am currently searching through all of the academic policies with a fine-tooth comb to try and make the most solid argument I can for an appeal. The shame is, I only failed by 4 points. My school rushed me to take the test by a certain deadline which precluded me from taking a full kaplan online course that had just recently become avaialble and that I had wanted to use to prepare. they said "you can take part of the course and stop it early", but #1 that's a lot of money to spend to not get to finish the course and #2 the stuff that I really needed work on, Internal Medicine, was all being reviewed at the end of the course which I would miss if I stopped early. Maybe if they had been willing to wait what would have been just a few extra weeks I would not be in this situation. It almost feels like they were just ready to get rid of me and didn't care whether it was by graduation or dismissal, just as long as i was out of there.

Oh and I just looked it up and it looks like VA does not currently have a limit on USMLE attempts for liscensure. If anyone else is interested in looking up their state I found this at http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_eliinitial.html
 
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Thank you for response Dermpath. I am currently trying to garner some faculty support. I have one faculty member who is working on a letter to the Dean and who was there with me every day while I was studying the third time around and another who has said they would be willing to talk to the dean on my behalf. I am currently searching through all of the academic policies with a fine-tooth comb to try and make the most solid argument I can for an appeal. The shame is, I only failed by 4 points. My school rushed me to take the test by a certain deadline which precluded me from taking a full kaplan online course that had just recently become avaialble and that I had wanted to use to prepare. they said "you can take part of the course and stop it early", but #1 that's a lot of money to spend to not get to finish the course and #2 the stuff that I really needed work on, Internal Medicine, was all being reviewed at the end of the course which I would miss if I stopped early. Maybe if they had been willing to wait what would have been just a few extra weeks I would not be in this situation. It almost feels like they were just ready to get rid of me and didn't care whether it was by graduation or dismissal, just as long as i was out of there.

Oh and I just looked it up and it looks like VA does not currently have a limit on USMLE attempts for liscensure. If anyone else is interested in looking up their state I found this at http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_eliinitial.html

If I can ask, what happened the first 2 times? I think that it's important for you to say hey, what's happening here?

Is English your first language, any learning disabilities, etc? I understand the need to want to say hey it's the school's fault, but if I were you, I would be careful with taking that approach. Not trying to make you feel bad or anything, but given that it's 3 times, there may be an underlying issue. Is the foundation of knowledge that you have lacking?

Did you do well on step 1, and pass on the first attempt? Any failures/remediations during the first 2 years?

I think like I said before that your best bet is to have faculty support you, as you are doing, think very carefully about what you'll say to the dean/committee, and try to take a stance of "I'll remediate what I have to in order to pass" vs. "it's the school's fault." But again, realize that the committee will wonder why you have not been able to pass 3 times while most med students pass on the first time. Is there an extenuating circumstance that's happening?

I wish you the best of luck
 
This issue has been discussed in other threads.
If they have a written policy, you don't have much of a basis for an appeal.

That being said, get faculty support and come up with a good plan of how you are going to correct this issue. Make sure your plan is rock solid and very achievable. I'd make sure it includes tons of study/practice time. Do not even think of taking the exam until you are scoring in the 220-230 range on multiple, multiple full-length practice exams.
I don't care if you need to take an entire year of studying full-time to achieve this.

It sounds like you weren't ready, knew you weren't ready and took it anyway due to pressure from your school.

This is your life and future, not your school's. Don't get rushed again.
That's assuming that they give you another chance, which they may not.

You need to prepare for an appeal as if your whole career depends on it.

:luck:
I hope they give you another shot.
If they do, make sure you give it your all.
 
Hello, I'm new to SDN so bear with me please.
I was dismissed this week from a US medical school after completing all of my 1-4th year requirements because I failed step 2CK for the 3rd time. The NMBE website currently has no caps on the amount of times one can attempt each step and announced that in Jan 2012 it's capping it at 6 attempts per step. I've only had 3 and my school is saying they have a 3 strikes policy for step 2. Can they do this? I have finished literally EVERYTHING else and passing 2CS is not a requirement for graduation from this school, just passing 2CK. They are messing with MY LIFE here! I want to appeal but they have no precedent for this and so I have no blueprint. Anybody got some good advice or know a good lawyer in VA who deals with this kind of stuff?

How did you pass step 1?
 
Is kaplan available for step 2?
 
Hello, I'm new to SDN so bear with me please.
I was dismissed this week from a US medical school after completing all of my 1-4th year requirements because I failed step 2CK for the 3rd time. The NMBE website currently has no caps on the amount of times one can attempt each step and announced that in Jan 2012 it's capping it at 6 attempts per step. I've only had 3 and my school is saying they have a 3 strikes policy for step 2. Can they do this? I have finished literally EVERYTHING else and passing 2CS is not a requirement for graduation from this school, just passing 2CK. They are messing with MY LIFE here! I want to appeal but they have no precedent for this and so I have no blueprint. Anybody got some good advice or know a good lawyer in VA who deals with this kind of stuff?
I don't have any practical info but I just wanna say I wish you the best of luck in whatever happens. I can't even imagine what that must feel like especially 4th year. Please keep us updated!
 
That's just horrible. Dismissed you because you failed Step 2 three times? I'm not going to point my finger and talk about studying or whatever, because I'm sure you've heard it. Don't let go of this until they accept you back, even if it means dropping a lawsuit on them. Even though residency will be almost no chance, you should at least have the opportunity to get your degree.
 
I don't have any practical info but I just wanna say I wish you the best of luck in whatever happens. I can't even imagine what that must feel like especially 4th year. Please keep us updated!

I would be completely devastated if something like that happened to me.
 
i feel like, after the 2nd attempt, that you should have taken the year or half the year off to study for the exam. The school was not acting in your best interest for rushing you to take it and that is a shame. In terms of the cost, I wished you had gone ahead and spent the money for review courses, practice tests, etc... But that's all in retrospect, definitely have some idea of how much anxiety you're going through about your future as I was literally in fear for my future for 2.5 mos waiting for the CS results. Definitely would appeal it with your school and goodluck, sorry this happened.
 
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Thank you to eveyone who sent some encouraging words. There were some questionss about my studying and courses and such.... Well I did study, I studied HARD and every day. I did do Q bank each and every time and I did take a course. It was not Kaplan becuase the courses they were giving, the live ones, were logistically impossible for me to attend. I even took a course that supposedly helps doctors and medical students with learning disabilities learn how to re-study or study differently in order to digest and retain the huge amount of info we have to absorb. When I found a Kaplan course that was logistically possible, because it was a live on-line course, the school would not grant me an extenstion in order to take the class before the exam. The class ran past their deadline and all of the stuff I actually needed help with was at the end part of the class (I looked at the schedule) and I showed them that. Still they held me to that deadline. I did everything I possible could to prepare myself for that exam and reached the limit of what I could do on my own without a review course, but I didn't find any otheers like Kaplan. You know princeton review doesn't even do step 2 prep, they only go up to step 1. I am definitely appealing this through my school's process. Someone mentioned money, or "spending the money: on a review course. Well I am not rich, actually quite strapped for cash (which is why I can't even afford to pay a lawyer for this appeal). I come from a poor family so I can't run to them for money. And I spent the money I had (which I took out a private loan for) on that course I mentioned above (the one for medical students with learning disabilities). The thing is, although it supposedly teaches you techniques of how to retain info, it doesn't go through a comprehensive review of the material. But I thought that if could learn how to better retain the info, then I could go from there and study on my own. However I still had problems, which is why I was willing to max out my credit cards on that Kaplan course and spend what little money I had left on it, but it ran over their deadline. If I took it and stopped early, I'd miss like half the course and even worse, miss the most important part for me, all the stuff I had problems with. so as you can see I was, and still am, between a rock and a hard place. I would have loved to take time off and study more, but I wasn't given time. I was litterally told take the test by our deadline or we will withdraw you anyway. So I really had NO options. I'm just so frustrated and yes, devistated.
 
If we are hearing the whole story, it sounds like your school screwed you.
It also sounds like an appeal isn't going to go anywhere.
They already made up their mind when they gave you a firm deadline.

I hope I'm wrong and you get another chance.

:luck:
 
If we are hearing the whole story, it sounds like your school screwed you.
It also sounds like an appeal isn't going to go anywhere.
They already made up their mind when they gave you a firm deadline.

I hope I'm wrong and you get another chance.

:luck:


How did the school screw the OP?

Presumably an agreement was signed 4+ years ago outlining what would happen if you failed step 2 three times.

I agree it sounds like they pushed the poster too hard this last time. BUT they had already studied for and failed the exam twice when the vast majority pass on the 1st try.

The first failure could have been due to various reasons. But taking the second how did tjey fail, and what did they do different from the first time. After failing it twice they say the school pushed them....

It sucks major, but like it or not there is a reason why you have to pass.
 
How did the school screw the OP?

Presumably an agreement was signed 4+ years ago outlining what would happen if you failed step 2 three times.

I agree it sounds like they pushed the poster too hard this last time. BUT they had already studied for and failed the exam twice when the vast majority pass on the 1st try.

The first failure could have been due to various reasons. But taking the second how did tjey fail, and what did they do different from the first time. After failing it twice they say the school pushed them....

It sucks major, but like it or not there is a reason why you have to pass.

I think you are being overly harsh. Standarized tests are hard for some students, and it does not mean that they are not capable, should not practice, etc. just because they are having a hard time passing. We don't know the circumstances, and it's not our business to judge. While most people do pass on the first time, that's irrelevant in the OP's case. If OP was having issues passing, he should have been able to take as much as needed, regardless of what the school wanted. Plenty of people take extra time to study. Clearly if the test had been failed 2 times before, a remediation plan should have been taken up. At the very least, OP should be allowed to graduate.
 
I think you are being overly harsh. Standarized tests are hard for some students, and it does not mean that they are not capable, should not practice, etc. just because they are having a hard time passing. We don't know the circumstances, and it's not our business to judge. While most people do pass on the first time, that's irrelevant in the OP's case. If OP was having issues passing, he should have been able to take as much as needed, regardless of what the school wanted. Plenty of people take extra time to study. Clearly if the test had been failed 2 times before, a remediation plan should have been taken up. At the very least, OP should be allowed to graduate.

I'm sorry if my post was seen as harsh. I guess a background in management has left me a bit 'cold' because that is what the real world looks like. There are expectations and you don't get appeals and re-do's outside of academia.

As a human I feel horrible for the OP, but realistically what options are there? Are there residencies that will accept him if he finally passes on try #4?
 
They screwed him by not giving him the amount of time that he (she) needed to pass it on the third attempt.

There may be other details we are missing, but it doesn't sound like a supportive environment.

I realize the "real" world is much different.
School isn't the real world. You are paying a ton for a service the school is providing. They work for you, or at least that's the way is should be.
 
They screwed him by not giving him the amount of time that he (she) needed to pass it on the third attempt.

There may be other details we are missing, but it doesn't sound like a supportive environment.

I realize the "real" world is much different.
School isn't the real world. You are paying a ton for a service the school is providing. They work for you, or at least that's the way is should be.

I think the idea that the school should have given them more time to prepare is ridiculous.

Why should they?!

They set a date. For a THIRD attempt at an exam. It is then the STUDENTS responsibility to ensure they are adequately prepared for that date - NOT the schools.
At some point in time, you have to take responsibility for your own failings. Yes, a school is providing you an education. But just because you are paying them for that education, does NOT entitle you to the degree. You still have to fulfill your side of the agreement - that you will pass examinations as required.

This student has failed to do that. On numerous occasions. That is not all the schools fault.

At the end of the day, a patient isn't going to deteriorate more slowly just because you need extra time to work up your case. The sooner schools stop spoon feeding students and show them the way the world works, the better.
 
I think the idea that the school should have given them more time to prepare is ridiculous.

Why should they?!

They set a date. For a THIRD attempt at an exam. It is then the STUDENTS responsibility to ensure they are adequately prepared for that date - NOT the schools.
At some point in time, you have to take responsibility for your own failings. Yes, a school is providing you an education. But just because you are paying them for that education, does NOT entitle you to the degree. You still have to fulfill your side of the agreement - that you will pass examinations as required.

This student has failed to do that. On numerous occasions. That is not all the schools fault.

At the end of the day, a patient isn't going to deteriorate more slowly just because you need extra time to work up your case. The sooner schools stop spoon feeding students and show them the way the world works, the better.


You are a vet student, not a med student, so I don't think that you should really be talking about this really. You have not been in the OP's shoes, and you guys are not required to take multiple standarized tests to even graduate. As others pointed out, the OP got screwed royally. He/she should at the very least be allowed to graduate. If the student could not prepare in the time allotted, more time should be allotted, period.
 
You are a vet student, not a med student, so I don't think that you should really be talking about this really. You have not been in the OP's shoes, and you guys are not required to take multiple standarized tests to even graduate. As others pointed out, the OP got screwed royally. He/she should at the very least be allowed to graduate. If the student could not prepare in the time allotted, more time should be allotted, period.

WHY?

The OP signed an agreement stating they would pass Step 2 within 3 tries or they would not graduate (when they matriculated).

They failed 3 times.

Why should the school give them a degree they didn't earn?

I don't want to bash the OP, their situation sucks. BUT, quit blaming the school for the OP's failure to pass Step 2.
 
WHY?

The OP signed an agreement stating they would pass Step 2 within 3 tries or they would not graduate (when they matriculated).

They failed 3 times.

Why should the school give them a degree they didn't earn?

I don't want to bash the OP, their situation sucks. BUT, quit blaming the school for the OP's failure to pass Step 2.

I did not BLAME the school, nor has anyone ele really, for OP not passing. No one is saying, oh it is the school's fault that he/she failed. But it is the responsibility of the school to make help the student if there are issues. At my school, for example, if a student fails a shelf exam, they are given 2 weeks I believe free of any clinical duties to study and pass. For steps, I believe they are given like 5 or 6 weeks free of any duties to study and pass, meet with the educational person (they have a title but i forget what they are called right now), have a plan, and they inform the dean of whether the student is ready or not to pass, and if they need extra time, that time is allotted if it's needed. If the student says hey I'm not ready, and I've failed twice before, chances are that student is not ready, and needs a more structured plan to pass, and help to pass. The school refused to give him/her that, and student failed.

There is a reason why there are exceptions to "rules," and if the school does not intervene after a student has failed 2 times before, it's pretty sad.
 
As I stated, I feel like the school should have been more supportive in creating a plan that would have allowed the OP to pass on the third attempt.
They didn't do that, they pushed the OP to take the exam before they were ready.
He/she had a plan and they didn't give the time needed to complete it.

At this point, after 3 failed attempts, he/she isn''t going to graduate and will get essentially nothing for 4 years of work.

Just a terrible situation.

I understand some people taking a hard line stance.
I just disagree.

Graduating probably wouldn't lead to becoming a doc anyway at this point.
At least a degree would be granted which would help get a job.
 
As I stated, I feel like the school should have been more supportive in creating a plan that would have allowed the OP to pass on the third attempt.
They didn't do that, they pushed the OP to take the exam before they were ready.
He/she had a plan and they didn't give the time needed to complete it.

At this point, after 3 failed attempts, he/she isn''t going to graduate and will get essentially nothing for 4 years of work.

Just a terrible situation.

I understand some people taking a hard line stance.
I just disagree.

Graduating probably wouldn't lead to becoming a doc anyway at this point.
At least a degree would be granted which would help get a job.

Absolutely. And after all, at least as I see it,medical schools are in the business of producing compassionate physicians, and should also be compassionate in how they deal with students. It's always been a pet peeve of mine when people are not given another chance. In this case, given all the work the OP put, they should at the very least be allowed to graduate.
 
You are a vet student, not a med student, so I don't think that you should really be talking about this really. You have not been in the OP's shoes, and you guys are not required to take multiple standarized tests to even graduate. As others pointed out, the OP got screwed royally. He/she should at the very least be allowed to graduate. If the student could not prepare in the time allotted, more time should be allotted, period.

Actually, we are.
And we are only given 2 opportunities to pass. None of this 6 tries business.


Why should they be allowed to graduate? They have not fulfilled the criteria for graduation. I don't deny that it sucks and must be devestating for the OP, but students have both rights and responsibilities. They have the right to a good fair education. They have the RESPONSIBILITY to adequately prepare for exams given an allotted timeframe. The OP has failed in their responsibilites.

And you cant say the OP hasnt been given another chance. They have been given multiple chances.
 
sunshinevet, this is "OP". I don't know if you read the title or not but it includes the word "Help". You are not trying to be helpful you are criticizing a person you DON'T even know and DON'T know the circumstances of. So I, the "OP" who is a she by the way, would appreciate it if you would not post to this forum anymore. Oh and anyone else who just wants to send nasty harsh criticizm, please follow suit. Just because you like the sound of your own voice, or typing, doesn't mean others need to hear it. Please find a post where sh%t like that is wanted.....not here... AND for your info, I have FINISHED all other school requirements to graduate... AND I have a learning dissability...that involves testing. Doesn't mean I'm dumb though, just a poor tester. You have some nerve judging other people like that.... you sound like a real a-hole.

and sunshinvet, I see that you are a vet student if the above post that called you out is true. If that is the case then DEFINITELY stop posting here. your advice is not wanted, I need people who actually know what it's like to be in medical school. There is a difference.
 
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WHY?

The OP signed an agreement stating they would pass Step 2 within 3 tries or they would not graduate (when they matriculated).

They failed 3 times.

Why should the school give them a degree they didn't earn?

I don't want to bash the OP, their situation sucks. BUT, quit blaming the school for the OP's failure to pass Step 2.
OMG sorry I am just catching up on this thread because I've been working on my appeal and trying to find a job to pay the bills. Thank you to those who have been supportive. To those who have just used this thread as a playground for argument, vet student, I again suggest you take it somewhere else. For your info, I HAVE earned the right to graduate by completing all of my school's clinicals, basic sciences, etc. Yes the exam is a requirement too. However, this damn exam does not show that I am not fit to be a doctor , that whole "there's a reason they didn't pass" is bullsh$t o.k. These tests, USMLEs don't represent the real world. You are usually with your patient more that 1.36 minutes, but that's how long you get to read about a patient and their illness, look at labs, asses the scenario and answer the question. Times that by 9 hours and you get Hell. I am sure some others, whether they passed or not, will agree the exam was hellish.... not something you want to repeat if you don't have to. Oh and how many times have you seen your resident pull out their epocrates, pharmacopia or that little pocket ID book and look something up? That's the real world. But we are expected to carry it all in our heads, at least until the exam is over. You know nothing about what I did to prepare , for how long, and what circumstances surrounded that prep and there were "circumstances".... family circumstances. I had to be the health care decision maker to my sister who was in the hospital dying, yes actually dying, of an infection that the docs were taking a little too long to find....so I helped them out with suggestions....which they took because they could tell I knew some stuff after 4 years in med school and if they hadn't found it by now, what's a few extra tests. Now I know I am not a doctor yet and so don't know more than those docs did, I guess, but I'll be damned if I was going to sit there and watch my sister deteriorate and do nothing. I had access to medical databases and journals, etc through my school's wonderful proxy server. so when I wasn't at the hospital I was looking up stuff at night, you know rather than sleep. After I left my home town to come back to school to STUDY, while she was still in the hospital, I had to play long distance health care provider.... Doctors calling me asking if they can run this test and that test and give this med and that med.... Conference calls, talking with social workers, the "whole 9 yards". Now I am not complaining because there was really no one else in my family to do it and she is my SISTER, but I'm just giving you some context. You know to erase that image in your head of me twiddling my thumbs for weeks and weeks and then just up and taking the test. Don't deny, you know a part of you thought that, which is why you are so harsh. You think I don't deserve to get my MD because I didn't work hard enough for it. Well I've worked harder than most. Oh and let's not forget my father's cancer coming back and going all metastatic. That was a surprise. Oh and let's not forget one of my favorite anuts dying. ALL while I was studying for the boards...ALL 3 times. Yes, tragedy was spread out for me... how lucky am I. A little distracting wouldn't you say? Now this is not my "excuse for not passing" but give me a damn break. You tell me you could think straight with all that sh$t going on and I'll say either you're a lyer or just have no feelings at all. So before you judge somebody else, in an open forum no less, you need to stop and think about what you're about to say and whether you #1 have the right to do so and #2 have the whole story. 'kay? And if it wasn't apparent, yes I am angry and I know once you put something on the internet it's out there forever, but this is nothing I wouldn't say again in a heartbeat, online or in person.
 
OMG sorry I am just catching up on this thread because I've been working on my appeal and trying to find a job to pay the bills. Thank you to those who have been supportive. To those who have just used this thread as a playground for argument, vet student, I again suggest you take it somewhere else. For your info, I HAVE earned the right to graduate by completing all of my school's clinicals, basic sciences, etc. Yes the exam is a requirement too. However, this damn exam does not show that I am not fit to be a doctor , that whole "there's a reason they didn't pass" is bullsh$t o.k. These tests, USMLEs don't represent the real world. You are usually with your patient more that 1.36 minutes, but that's how long you get to read about a patient and their illness, look at labs, asses the scenario and answer the question. Times that by 9 hours and you get Hell. I am sure some others, whether they passed or not, will agree the exam was hellish.... not something you want to repeat if you don't have to. Oh and how many times have you seen your resident pull out their epocrates, pharmacopia or that little pocket ID book and look something up? That's the real world. But we are expected to carry it all in our heads, at least until the exam is over. You know nothing about what I did to prepare , for how long, and what circumstances surrounded that prep and there were "circumstances".... family circumstances. I had to be the health care decision maker to my sister who was in the hospital dying, yes actually dying, of an infection that the docs were taking a little too long to find....so I helped them out with suggestions....which they took because they could tell I knew some stuff after 4 years in med school and if they hadn't found it by now, what's a few extra tests. Now I know I am not a doctor yet and so don't know more than those docs did, I guess, but I'll be damned if I was going to sit there and watch my sister deteriorate and do nothing. I had access to medical databases and journals, etc through my school's wonderful proxy server. so when I wasn't at the hospital I was looking up stuff at night, you know rather than sleep. After I left my home town to come back to school to STUDY, while she was still in the hospital, I had to play long distance health care provider.... Doctors calling me asking if they can run this test and that test and give this med and that med.... Conference calls, talking with social workers, the "whole 9 yards". Now I am not complaining because there was really no one else in my family to do it and she is my SISTER, but I'm just giving you some context. You know to erase that image in your head of me twiddling my thumbs for weeks and weeks and then just up and taking the test. Don't deny, you know a part of you thought that, which is why you are so harsh. You think I don't deserve to get my MD because I didn't work hard enough for it. Well I've worked harder than most. Oh and let's not forget my father's cancer coming back and going all metastatic. That was a surprise. Oh and let's not forget one of my favorite anuts dying. ALL while I was studying for the boards...ALL 3 times. Yes, tragedy was spread out for me... how lucky am I. A little distracting wouldn't you say? Now this is not my "excuse for not passing" but give me a damn break. You tell me you could think straight with all that sh$t going on and I'll say either you're a lyer or just have no feelings at all. So before you judge somebody else, in an open forum no less, you need to stop and think about what you're about to say and whether you #1 have the right to do so and #2 have the whole story. 'kay? And if it wasn't apparent, yes I am angry and I know once you put something on the internet it's out there forever, but this is nothing I wouldn't say again in a heartbeat, online or in person.

Hey there, I know you must feel frustrated, and I wholeheartedly agree that the vet student was completely out of line, and reason why I suggested his/her comments were pointless given that they were not even a med student but a vet student and not even in the US. The last thing you need now is someone giving you grief. I don't think you need to explain in such a public way what happened, and you are right in that no one should be judging you.

Lord knows I've had my issues with standarized testing and a learning disability. Just concentrate on your appeal and doing what you need to do. Do you have a support system? Just do what you have to do with your appeal, and don;t focus on the negative people. Good luck with your appeal, I really hope and pray that you can get another chance.
 
OMG sorry I am just catching up on this thread because I've been working on my appeal and trying to find a job to pay the bills. Thank you to those who have been supportive. To those who have just used this thread as a playground for argument, vet student, I again suggest you take it somewhere else. For your info, I HAVE earned the right to graduate by completing all of my school's clinicals, basic sciences, etc. Yes the exam is a requirement too. However, this damn exam does not show that I am not fit to be a doctor , that whole "there's a reason they didn't pass" is bullsh$t o.k. These tests, USMLEs don't represent the real world. You are usually with your patient more that 1.36 minutes, but that's how long you get to read about a patient and their illness, look at labs, asses the scenario and answer the question. Times that by 9 hours and you get Hell. I am sure some others, whether they passed or not, will agree the exam was hellish.... not something you want to repeat if you don't have to. Oh and how many times have you seen your resident pull out their epocrates, pharmacopia or that little pocket ID book and look something up? That's the real world. But we are expected to carry it all in our heads, at least until the exam is over. You know nothing about what I did to prepare , for how long, and what circumstances surrounded that prep and there were "circumstances".... family circumstances. I had to be the health care decision maker to my sister who was in the hospital dying, yes actually dying, of an infection that the docs were taking a little too long to find....so I helped them out with suggestions....which they took because they could tell I knew some stuff after 4 years in med school and if they hadn't found it by now, what's a few extra tests. Now I know I am not a doctor yet and so don't know more than those docs did, I guess, but I'll be damned if I was going to sit there and watch my sister deteriorate and do nothing. I had access to medical databases and journals, etc through my school's wonderful proxy server. so when I wasn't at the hospital I was looking up stuff at night, you know rather than sleep. After I left my home town to come back to school to STUDY, while she was still in the hospital, I had to play long distance health care provider.... Doctors calling me asking if they can run this test and that test and give this med and that med.... Conference calls, talking with social workers, the "whole 9 yards". Now I am not complaining because there was really no one else in my family to do it and she is my SISTER, but I'm just giving you some context. You know to erase that image in your head of me twiddling my thumbs for weeks and weeks and then just up and taking the test. Don't deny, you know a part of you thought that, which is why you are so harsh. You think I don't deserve to get my MD because I didn't work hard enough for it. Well I've worked harder than most. Oh and let's not forget my father's cancer coming back and going all metastatic. That was a surprise. Oh and let's not forget one of my favorite anuts dying. ALL while I was studying for the boards...ALL 3 times. Yes, tragedy was spread out for me... how lucky am I. A little distracting wouldn't you say? Now this is not my "excuse for not passing" but give me a damn break. You tell me you could think straight with all that sh$t going on and I'll say either you're a lyer or just have no feelings at all. So before you judge somebody else, in an open forum no less, you need to stop and think about what you're about to say and whether you #1 have the right to do so and #2 have the whole story. 'kay? And if it wasn't apparent, yes I am angry and I know once you put something on the internet it's out there forever, but this is nothing I wouldn't say again in a heartbeat, online or in person.

OP, so sorry to hear, and the best of luck. (And yeah, I have to agree that people who haven't been to med school shouldn't be making judgments about 4th year med students.)
 
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Actually, we are.
And we are only given 2 opportunities to pass. None of this 6 tries business.


Why should they be allowed to graduate? They have not fulfilled the criteria for graduation. I don't deny that it sucks and must be devestating for the OP, but students have both rights and responsibilities. They have the right to a good fair education. They have the RESPONSIBILITY to adequately prepare for exams given an allotted timeframe. The OP has failed in their responsibilites.

And you cant say the OP hasnt been given another chance. They have been given multiple chances.

Objectivity has no place in the real world. If something goes wrong for me, I'm always the last to acknowledge it because it isn't in my best interest.

I have always looked out for my best interests. If I was in the OP's position I would do exactly as she has done, appeal and consider legal options because graduating and finding a residency would benefit me the most.

Only an idiot would throw up their hands and give up after coming up one test short of graduation.

What you're arguing is about rules made up by some people in some establishment. Something can be bent or broken if enough time and/or money is thrown at it.
 
I know some may have a firm stance in regards to rules and "agreements" made prior to M1, but there are exceptions. It totally sucks failing Step 2, much less three times, and OP won't find a residency gig, but come on! He completed four years at the school, and this is the thanks they give OP? I wonder how many med schools even have this policy?

OP, you just have to keep fighting with appeals, even if you get turned down. You went to their school and are now in debt at least $200K (I'm assuming), and technically completed the program. With or without Step 2, if you did everything else to graduate, you deserve to be granted the MD.
 
Hey there, I know you must feel frustrated, and I wholeheartedly agree that the vet student was completely out of line, and reason why I suggested his/her comments were pointless given that they were not even a med student but a vet student and not even in the US. The last thing you need now is someone giving you grief. I don't think you need to explain in such a public way what happened, and you are right in that no one should be judging you.

Lord knows I've had my issues with standarized testing and a learning disability. Just concentrate on your appeal and doing what you need to do. Do you have a support system? Just do what you have to do with your appeal, and don;t focus on the negative people. Good luck with your appeal, I really hope and pray that you can get another chance.

This. :thumbup:
 
OP, let me offer one last thought.

As someone else said you need to fight this to get another chance.
I don't think your shot at getting a residency spot are that good, but you should try your best to get a degree granted.

Prior to med school, I spent 10 years in the pharma/biotech industry.
Having the degree could greatly help you get a job in that industry.
Not really a "MD" level job; for those you need board-cert and actual clinical experience.
You could however get a clinical position and use your knowledge base.

Best of luck.
Sorry for all the negativity in this thread.
That's the last thing you need in your life right now.
 
OP, there are a few hard facts here.
1. You failed your boards. Multiple times.
2. Based on your school policy, that is grounds for dismissal.
3. By failing to meet your school's standards for graduation, you are NOT entitled to graduate, and you have NOT "earned" the right to graduate. You did not meet the standards for graduation. And believe it or not, more than a few schools have policies on the maximum number of times you can take boards before they kick you out of school. Yes, it happens.

I am truly sorry. Really. But those are the facts as you have laid them out.

Now, your options.
1. appeal to your administration. Might work, might not. They might make you repeat a year or so.
2. Transfer to another school and likely repeat at least one clinical year if not two.
3. Suck it up and try for something that doesn't require an MD or DO degree.

You need to come to the realization that yes, your life sucked. Yes, life ganged up on you. Yes, something likely had to give. But being bitter and angry and entitled isn't going to get you very far. When you appeal to your administration, you need to be calm, cool, and collected. You need to be truly sorry. You need to have explanations WITHOUT excuses for why you failed boards multiple times. Do NOT blame anyone other than yourself. You need to have a game plan for rectifying your errors and passing the exam. If this means you agree to pay for and take practice exams in their offices to show them you have a high likelihood of a passing score, that's what you do. If it means paying for an in-person review course with assessment exams, borrow some money and get it done. If it means you agree to repeat fourth year after passing your exams, you do that. If it means standing on your head and washing the dean's car every day for an entire year even in the winter you do that too. You do it gratefully and say "thank you for the opportunity."

Unfortunately life isn't fair. At this point there are states you will be unable to get a license in. I would implore you to research that and make sure your options are open for your chosen path because if you were absolutely stuck on practicing in Alaska, you may not be able to get a license there.

Find a faculty mentor that will help you through the appeal process. Someone at your school has a mentoring heart that can advise you and review your appeal presentation so you get the best chance of achieving your goal. They will also have some idea of how far back this may set you in terms of when you can graduate and what you may have to repeat (if anything). But what you need right now is someone on the inside of your school that knows the ins, outs, and hidden secrets of getting things done. Bribe them if you must with gifts of chocolate, tutoring for lower classmen, teacher's aide, whatever, but figure out who they are and enlist their help.

Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.
 
OP, there are a few hard facts here.
1. You failed your boards. Multiple times.
2. Based on your school policy, that is grounds for dismissal.
3. By failing to meet your school's standards for graduation, you are NOT entitled to graduate, and you have NOT "earned" the right to graduate. You did not meet the standards for graduation. And believe it or not, more than a few schools have policies on the maximum number of times you can take boards before they kick you out of school. Yes, it happens.

I am truly sorry. Really. But those are the facts as you have laid them out.

Now, your options.
1. appeal to your administration. Might work, might not. They might make you repeat a year or so.
2. Transfer to another school and likely repeat at least one clinical year if not two.
3. Suck it up and try for something that doesn't require an MD or DO degree.

You need to come to the realization that yes, your life sucked. Yes, life ganged up on you. Yes, something likely had to give. But being bitter and angry and entitled isn't going to get you very far. When you appeal to your administration, you need to be calm, cool, and collected. You need to be truly sorry. You need to have explanations WITHOUT excuses for why you failed boards multiple times. Do NOT blame anyone other than yourself. You need to have a game plan for rectifying your errors and passing the exam. If this means you agree to pay for and take practice exams in their offices to show them you have a high likelihood of a passing score, that's what you do. If it means paying for an in-person review course with assessment exams, borrow some money and get it done. If it means you agree to repeat fourth year after passing your exams, you do that. If it means standing on your head and washing the dean's car every day for an entire year even in the winter you do that too. You do it gratefully and say "thank you for the opportunity."

Unfortunately life isn't fair. At this point there are states you will be unable to get a license in. I would implore you to research that and make sure your options are open for your chosen path because if you were absolutely stuck on practicing in Alaska, you may not be able to get a license there.

Find a faculty mentor that will help you through the appeal process. Someone at your school has a mentoring heart that can advise you and review your appeal presentation so you get the best chance of achieving your goal. They will also have some idea of how far back this may set you in terms of when you can graduate and what you may have to repeat (if anything). But what you need right now is someone on the inside of your school that knows the ins, outs, and hidden secrets of getting things done. Bribe them if you must with gifts of chocolate, tutoring for lower classmen, teacher's aide, whatever, but figure out who they are and enlist their help.

Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.
Hello,
to all of you who've offered kind words and advise I say thank you. DrAwesome you're right I don't need to focus on negativity and anger which I'd been doing pretty good at until I saw all of those negative posts and all the stuff I'd held in during my interactions with people at the school, to stay calm and collected in front of them just came bursting out when I saw the callousness of what some people wrote. And I guess I didn't need to go into so much detail, but I was just like "wait!" you don't know what things I was going through at the time and how at some point it becomes impossible for you to keep certain aspects of your life from bleeding into your professional life no matter how good you are at compartmentalizing, at some point they all start to interact. Plus I guess I felt like some people were implying I just wasn't trying hard enough to be prepared for the exam and chose to go in not fully prepared which wasnt the case. At any rate, I will thank you to those who have tried to be positive and give helpful advise. I guess I can't and don't need to defend myself against every negative post or string of harsh words someone posts and really I don't have the time to devote to doing that because in the end, these people are not the ones I need to work on convincing it is the people at my school. I just wish to God that people would think before they wrote or re-read before they clicked send to see how it sounds ya know. Or better yet, don't post at all. Believe me I don't need anyone else to try to give me a "reality check" or lay out the "facts" to me. I've gone over these things a thousand times in my head and have had to face them every day since this whole ordeal began so I know what they are and how grim the situation looks, etc. But that doesn't mean that I still shouldn't try to do something to salvage the situation and get something out of all my years of hard work. And to all those people who keep reminding me that I "broke some kind of contract" with the school when I failed the boards or keep taking the hardline stance of "that's the school's rules" so you don't deserve to graduate, you've said it enough and we can just agree to disagree. Besides how can you fight for something you don't even belive in, i.e. fight for another chance if I myself can't belive for whatever reason that I do deserve one. Of course I believe I do. These may be people who've never struggled much with standardized exams and so don't know what it's like to be in a situation where a grade on one thing can outweigh the effort put into all the others. How you can get a clinical grade of an A or B and still get a C- or a D overall in a clerkship because of your shelf score. I know what I've put in and feeling you deserve something because you've worked hard for it is not the same as being entitled in the derogatory way that most people mean it when they say it. Most of those kinds of "entitled" people haven't worked hard for anything and still feel they deserve it. That's definitely not me. Oops I did it again. I'll rest my defense here.
 
get a lawyer. suing the school may burn some bridges. but at least get that MD degree first.
 
OP, there are a few hard facts here.
1. You failed your boards. Multiple times.
2. Based on your school policy, that is grounds for dismissal.
3. By failing to meet your school's standards for graduation, you are NOT entitled to graduate, and you have NOT "earned" the right to graduate. You did not meet the standards for graduation. And believe it or not, more than a few schools have policies on the maximum number of times you can take boards before they kick you out of school. Yes, it happens.

I am truly sorry. Really. But those are the facts as you have laid them out.

Now, your options.
1. appeal to your administration. Might work, might not. They might make you repeat a year or so.
2. Transfer to another school and likely repeat at least one clinical year if not two.
3. Suck it up and try for something that doesn't require an MD or DO degree.

You need to come to the realization that yes, your life sucked. Yes, life ganged up on you. Yes, something likely had to give. But being bitter and angry and entitled isn't going to get you very far. When you appeal to your administration, you need to be calm, cool, and collected. You need to be truly sorry. You need to have explanations WITHOUT excuses for why you failed boards multiple times. Do NOT blame anyone other than yourself. You need to have a game plan for rectifying your errors and passing the exam. If this means you agree to pay for and take practice exams in their offices to show them you have a high likelihood of a passing score, that's what you do. If it means paying for an in-person review course with assessment exams, borrow some money and get it done. If it means you agree to repeat fourth year after passing your exams, you do that. If it means standing on your head and washing the dean's car every day for an entire year even in the winter you do that too. You do it gratefully and say "thank you for the opportunity."

Unfortunately life isn't fair. At this point there are states you will be unable to get a license in. I would implore you to research that and make sure your options are open for your chosen path because if you were absolutely stuck on practicing in Alaska, you may not be able to get a license there.

Find a faculty mentor that will help you through the appeal process. Someone at your school has a mentoring heart that can advise you and review your appeal presentation so you get the best chance of achieving your goal. They will also have some idea of how far back this may set you in terms of when you can graduate and what you may have to repeat (if anything). But what you need right now is someone on the inside of your school that knows the ins, outs, and hidden secrets of getting things done. Bribe them if you must with gifts of chocolate, tutoring for lower classmen, teacher's aide, whatever, but figure out who they are and enlist their help.

Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.

This is basically all the advice you need. In my humble opinion, and I know you don't give a crap because I'm a lowly college grad who hasn't started medical school yet, you seem hell-bent on blaming everything but yourself. That won't get you anywhere in life. You don't deserve to graduate, much like you think you do, because you haven't passed a test central to graduating medical school. You failed multiple times, and the only person you can hold accountable for that is yourself - not life, not your sister's health problems, not the school, etc.

I wish you luck, because getting the boot after 4 years of hard work and debt isn't something anyone should have to face. Read what ShyRem said and take it to heart if you want a fighting chance, or continue on like you have been and likely not get anywhere.
 
As my professors have said, you can disagree with the facts, but facts are facts, and there is absolutely no point in sugar coating something in black and white. ShyRem stated the facts. Choose to accept them, or not.
 
It sounds like you've faced more obstacles than most med students (not having much wealth, family illnesses, etc.). However, you are not the only person to face these, and many others still passed their exams. You say you have a learning disability and that likely played a large part. I don't blame you for appealing...I think most of us would, in the situation you are in. You need to not blame the school, however...I think they made a mistake by pushing you to take the test before you were ready, but it was your responsibility to pass. I think they should have offered you a leave of absence for a few months while you dealt with these family issues, if that was necessary.

I think that you need probably some professional help with the test...you may need to go somewhere to take a live test prep course...particularly if this was the clinical exam with patients that you failed. If you belong to AMA and/or AMSA, maybe there is a free housing program you could take advantage of. For example, AMA used to have people who would volunteer to take in students who were going somewhere for residency interviews...docs and med students would agree to house them for a night or two, for free. Maybe you could get someone to do that from you...or alumni from your med school etc. This is if you need to go to a bigger city to take a review course. I think you need to at some point get away from some of the distractions...that may be what is going on with your family plus also the anger you are feeling regarding your school. Your family hopefully supports you in your goals and you may just need to "hole up" somewhere for a couple of months and just study.

I think you should make a specific plan of what you are going to do to pass the test, take it to your school and see if they will agree to it. You don't have much to lose at this point. Try to enlist faculty support before you go back to the administration. It is a shame for someone to get through 4 years and not graduate. One can "blame" the student for it, but it's a whole lot of time and money and effort to spend if someone is going to get zero return. How would she/will she pay back her student loans. It's a big, big deal. It's different if someone is sexually harassing people, using drugs or alcohol, or something. On the other hand, the school and the residency programs are responsible to the public and they have to make sure you have a minimum knowledge base to practice. It's your responsibility to prove this through various measures...including standardized tests, even if you hate them. So see it as one of the biggest challenges of your life so far, and rise to the challenge.
 
Ugh, such a terrible situation...I have no helpful advice but to agree with what others have suggested. I can't imagine what it would be like to be going through such a situation, and feel for someone who has gone through the kind of ordeal we all have to in order to get to 4th year. I hope it works out well for you in the end.
 
Hello,
To all who have sent me positive vibes and positive comments thank you. I just wanted to update you all on my situation. I WON!!!! :D Yes after about 2 months of appeal I was granted another chance to take my Step 2 and time to study so that I can graduate. I had to take up a collection from family and friends for a lawyer but it was worth it and the lawyer did work with me on fees since I was BROKE (as many of us students are). Also I am now taking the review course that I was not given the opportunity to take before (had to take up a collection for that too). I am sure that will get me the 4 points worth of knowledge and more that I need to pass the exam. So I guess dilligence, beliefe in your right to persue your dreams, beliefe in that dream and a little legal support went a long way with those who I applealed to get my future back. The day I got the letter about the decision to reinstate me was one of if not the proudest moment to date of my time in medical school because I put everything into I had into making my case and it was nice to see the hard work pay off. To anyone else out there in a similar situation I say DO NOT give up if this is something that you really want. Have a good cry, take a moment to greive for your loss and then work like hell to get it back.
As this will probably be my last checking and posting on this string anyone who really wants to get in touch with me about this for something specific like advice, insight, strategy, lawyer referral, or something positive (I like positive stuff) please send a message to my inbox here as that will pop up in my e-mail for me to check.
 
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Congrats!! Proves the point that rules can be broken and to never give up!!!
 
congrats, you pretty much achieved the impossible :)
 
Congrats man! I'm so happy they gave you another chance.
 
Hello,
To all who have sent me positive vibes and positive comments thank you. I just wanted to update you all on my situation. I WON!!!! :D Yes after about 2 months of appeal I was granted another chance to take my Step 2 and time to study so that I can graduate. I had to take up a collection from family and friends for a lawyer but it was worth it and the lawyer did work with me on fees since I was BROKE (as many of us students are). Also I am now taking the review course that I was not given the opportunity to take before (had to take up a collection for that too). I am sure that will get me the 4 points worth of knowledge and more that I need to pass the exam. So I guess dilligence, beliefe in your right to persue your dreams, beliefe in that dream and a little legal support went a long way with those who I applealed to get my future back. The day I got the letter about the decision to reinstate me was one of if not the proudest moment to date of my time in medical school because I put everything into I had into making my case and it was nice to see the hard work pay off. To anyone else out there in a similar situation I say DO NOT give up if this is something that you really want. Have a good cry, take a moment to greive for your loss and then work like hell to get it back.
As this will probably be my last checking and posting on this string anyone who really wants to get in touch with me about this for something specific like advice, insight, strategy, lawyer referral, or something positive (I like positive stuff) please send a message to my inbox here as that will pop up in my e-mail for me to check.

AWESOME, AWESOME, AWESOME. Never say never, may the underdog prevail. Now take this opportunity to stick it to the man, pass everything here on out, be the doctor you are supposed to be, don't take anything for granted and be sure to pay it forward when you are all done and help the next poor soul with a boot on his/her neck. Good luck studying.:thumbup:
 
Wow please update us on how you do on your step 2 exam. Good luck!
 
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