DMU DO = DMU DPM?

[Yadster101]

So some podiatry students were saying pod school is approximately as hard as med school for the first two years. Just comparing the avg MCATs strongly suggests that pod students are not on the same level as MD/DOs. But then I compared DMUs curriculum for both programs and I was shocked to see that they take very similar schedules:

http://www.dmu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/CPMS-Strip-Chart.pdf
http://www.dmu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/DO-Strip-Chart.jpg


Is it true that DMU DO's and DPM's take take the exact same classes with the same tests/profs/etc.? Other than the longer DPM anatomy the programs look similar...right? How time consuming are classes like "Osteop. Manual Med 1" and "Fund of Pt Safety"? If these are fluff classes then the 2 programs look pretty similar.

Its just surprising to think ppl with 21 MCATs are passing the same difficult program that MD/DOs are going through.

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[meliora27]

Its just surprising to think ppl with 21 MCATs are passing the same difficult program that MD/DOs are going through.

**BREAKING NEWS**

MCAT Scores may not be the best predictor of how you'll do in medical school

 

[Yadster101]

From my experience the guy who got a 38 MCAT and 3.9~ barely studying in undergrad is having an easier time in med school vs the guy who struggled to get a 27 MCAT. MCAT and GPA obviously aren't perfect predictors but they are the best ones available.

 

[Yadster101]

I was more just curious if any one from DMU could comment on this. Are the curriculums pretty similar for the first two years or am I mistaken?

 

[hallowmann]

**BREAKING NEWS**

MCAT Scores may not be the best predictor of how you'll do in medical school

Actually, the MCAT has been shown to be a good predictor of success in medical school (particularly on boards). The main issue is that as a predictor, it really only shows a difference at ~24. People who get above a 24 tend to have very close to the same first attempt pass rates as people who get >30, etc. That said, people below 24 tend to start showing significantly lower (like a 5-7% drop in) first time pass rates on boards. DPM MCAT averages are like 20-22.

In any case, even if the curricula seem similar, I would be very surprised if the DPM curriculum was as in depth as the DO curriculum. I'm not saying its an easy curriculum, simply that I doubt all courses are at the same pace/delve in the same depth as the courses in the DO program. People who know the program specifically can correct me, but this is what tends to be the case with parallel degrees.

 

[Yadster101]

Actually, the MCAT has been shown to be a good predictor of success in medical school (particularly on boards). The main issue is that as a predictor, it really only shows a difference at ~24. People who get above a 24 tend to have very close to the same first attempt pass rates as people who get >30, etc. That said, people below 24 tend to start showing significantly lower (like a 5-7% drop in) first time pass rates on boards. DPM MCAT averages are like 20-22.

In any case, even if the curricula seem similar, I would be very surprised if the DPM curriculum was as in depth as the DO curriculum. I'm not saying its an easy curriculum, simply that I doubt all courses are at the same pace/delve in the same depth as the courses in the DO program. People who know the program specifically can correct me, but this is what tends to be the case with parallel degrees.

Ya thats exactly what I was thinking. How da heck do people with 21 MCATs even pass these courses? Also aren't med school courses all over the country pretty much the same since the same everyone has to pass boards? I know DOs take COMLEX but its the same material. Also where'd you get the "~24 MCAT stat"?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

This is the same at Western. They take 100% of the science with us, but they have their own curve. For example, our average is usually in the 80%, but they score at least 10% less. It's just like our summer anatomy where to pass the DO students need 70% but the Masters students taking it with us need 60%. Also, at least 30% of the pod class is gone by 3rd year. Our pod class this year already lost 8% of its students from anatomy alone. It is very possible some will be lost through this next course.

 

[NurWollen]

At AZCOM, our pod students take all the classes that matter with us. That includes anatomy, biochem, histo, phys, path, micro, etc. They take the exact same tests we do and we are all graded on the same scale (it's not a curve.) They have a separate intro to clinical medicine from us but I assume they are similar in difficulty level to ours. Of course they don't do OMM. They do have extra anatomy and other courses in three summer after MS1. Socially they are pretty much part of our class just like the rest of us. Many of them are my friends and I take a little but of offense to people insinuated that their curriculum is 'easier' than ours, especially the insinuation is made by DO student gunners who are looking for more reasons to give themselves the nod every time they look in the mirror.

 

[NontradCA]

From my experience the guy who got a 38 MCAT and 3.9~ barely studying in undergrad is having an easier time in med school vs the guy who struggled to get a 27 MCAT. MCAT and GPA obviously aren't perfect predictors but they are the best ones available.

Really? Because you made this thread and said the complete opposite:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/intelligence-factor.1107864/#post-15891163

Are you even in medical school?

Do you even lift bro?

 

[hallowmann]

Ya thats exactly what I was thinking. How da heck do people with 21 MCATs even pass these courses? Also aren't med school courses all over the country pretty much the same since the same everyone has to pass boards? I know DOs take COMLEX but its the same material. Also where'd you get the "~24 MCAT stat"?

Don't forget though that the GPA averages for DPMs are usually >3.2. Med school courses also vary significantly. The covered information may be roughly the same (i.e. what you need for boards), but the actual curricula, coursework, etc. are in some cases completely different school to school.

There have been multiple articles written about the efficacy of the MCAT in predicting things like success in medical school. The aspect of "success" that was most heavily correlated with MCAT was the first time board pass rates for the first step, but it also seems correlated with completion of medical school in 4-5 years.

Also, the analysis of the new MCAT (below) details this. That's the reason why they are normalizing the new MCAT average to be a score of 500, where 500 and above = high chance of success. The argument was that people pay too much attention to higher = better, where the data shows there are diminishing (or no) returns the higher the score is. They want (or at least they say the want) to make it more of a "threshold" for success, because that's what the data suggests.

Look at the end of this for some data (older data but still somewhat relevant):
https://www.aamc.org/students/download/378098/data/mcat2015scorescaleguide.pdf

Obviously GPA also plays a role in passing Step 1 on first attempt and graduating in 4-5 yrs. It seems the dip is somewhere in the 24-26 range, but below that range there is a steep drop in 5 yr graduation rate (6% drop) and in first attempt of Step 1 pass rate (10% drop). You can see that the initial drop happens somewhere in the 24-26 range (right around 50th percentile for the MCAT), but because its a range there's no way to know exactly where it falls, but at least you can say that below a 24 there's a steep drop.

I also want to make it clear that we are talking about statistics, and as a result we aren't talking about individuals. These only give us correlations, not rules. As you can see virtually everyone accepted to medical school that stays in med school eventually passes the step, so if you are below a certain range (MCAT or GPA) that is consistent with a drop in success, you can most likely change that outcome with better preparation.

This is the same at Western. They take 100% of the science with us, but they have their own curve. For example, our average is usually in the 80%, but they score at least 10% less. It's just like our summer anatomy where to pass the DO students need 70% but the Masters students taking it with us need 60%. Also, at least 30% of the pod class is gone by 3rd year. Our pod class this year already lost 8% of its students from anatomy alone. It is very possible some will be lost through this next course.

This makes sense. I could see a system like that working. Obviously a lot of the medical material is going to overlap, so this is probably a way to get around having two completely separate curricula and lectures (cheaper for the school).

At AZCOM, our pod students take all the classes that matter with us. That includes anatomy, biochem, histo, phys, path, micro, etc. They take the exact same tests we do and we are all graded on the same scale (it's not a curve.) They have a separate intro to clinical medicine from us but I assume they are similar in difficulty level to ours. Of course they don't do OMM. They do have extra anatomy and other courses in three summer after MS1. Socially they are pretty much part of our class just like the rest of us. Many of them are my friends and I take a little but of offense to people insinuated that their curriculum is 'easier' than ours, especially the insinuation is made by DO student gunners who are looking for more reasons to give themselves the nod every time they look in the mirror.

I'm not sure if I'm one of those people you're referring to. As far as this subject goes, its possible your curriculum is the exception rather than the rule. At least in my area, the DPM programs are separate from the medical programs, so obviously my experience is less than yours.

It tends to be the case though that parallel programs are usually not identical. I wouldn't expect a PA program in a MD/DO school to be as in depth as the MD/DO program (obviously a DPM program would be more in depth than a PA program, but they're different). Its not a "better" or "worse" thing. They're different programs that lead to different degrees that result in different jobs. I wouldn't expect them to be identical, because if they were, why wouldn't the DPMs just get an MD/DO or the MD/DOs just get a DPM? I wouldn't do DPM, mainly because I don't see myself as a surgeon, and I wouldn't expect someone who wants to be a DPM to really want to be an internist, neurologist, radiologist, etc.

Obviously, I meant/mean no offense to any individuals or you, and I'm sorry if that's the case.

 

[Yadster101]

Really? Because you made this thread and said the complete opposite:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/intelligence-factor.1107864/#post-15891163

Are you even in medical school?

Do you even lift bro?

The guy with the 3.9 had a 30 MCAT which I said on the very next page.

 

[Yadster101]

At AZCOM, our pod students take all the classes that matter with us. That includes anatomy, biochem, histo, phys, path, micro, etc. They take the exact same tests we do and we are all graded on the same scale (it's not a curve.) They have a separate intro to clinical medicine from us but I assume they are similar in difficulty level to ours. Of course they don't do OMM. They do have extra anatomy and other courses in three summer after MS1. Socially they are pretty much part of our class just like the rest of us. Many of them are my friends and I take a little but of offense to people insinuated that their curriculum is 'easier' than ours, especially the insinuation is made by DO student gunners who are looking for more reasons to give themselves the nod every time they look in the mirror.

Hmm that's interesting. So in your experience is the quote from the poster above true? Is the drop out rate for DPMs very high? Also do know if their average scores are close to that of the DO class? Is the great majority of the DPM passing in 4 years?

 

[NontradCA]

The guy with the 3.9 had a 30 MCAT which I said on the very next page.

Hey whatever man, I'm not going to argue with you over this pointless topic.

 

[NurWollen]

Hmm that's interesting. So in your experience is the quote from the poster above true? Is the drop out rate for DPMs very high? Also do know if their average scores are close to that of the DO class? Is the great majority of the DPM passing in 4 years?

The DPM class is small, only about 30 students. I know two of them left the program to join the 2018 DO class. I'm not sure if they've lost any others. I did hear that their average in gross anatomy last year was higher than ours, and one of our biochem faculty told me their averages in biochem were pretty much the same as ours. That could just be hearsay, obviously I have no direct, 1st hand knowledge. I guess it's possible that boards are a bigger hurdle for them than they are for us, or maybe their boards are easier. I really have no idea though.

 

[NurWollen]

I'm not sure if I'm one of those people you're referring to. As far as this subject goes, its possible your curriculum is the exception rather than the rule. At least in my area, the DPM programs are separate from the medical programs, so obviously my experience is less than yours.

It tends to be the case though that parallel programs are usually not identical. I wouldn't expect a PA program in a MD/DO school to be as in depth as the MD/DO program (obviously a DPM program would be more in depth than a PA program, but they're different). Its not a "better" or "worse" thing. They're different programs that lead to different degrees that result in different jobs. I wouldn't expect them to be identical, because if they were, why wouldn't the DPMs just get an MD/DO or the MD/DOs just get a DPM? I wouldn't do DPM, mainly because I don't see myself as a surgeon, and I wouldn't expect someone who wants to be a DPM to really want to be an internist, neurologist, radiologist, etc.

Obviously, I meant/mean no offense to any individuals or you, and I'm sorry if that's the case.

Haha, Hallowman, offend me? You're basically the most reasonable person on SDN, so no, no offense taken. Nah. I wasn't really directing that at anyone in particular here on SDN. I was posting that super late after studying all evening. I was probably in a grumpy mood for no reason. I just think it's funny that people feel the need to compare intensity of programs, especially ones as close as DPM, DO/MD, DDS, etc. Of course differences exist. I just think it's too bad when people bash other people's education as a way of boosting their own ego. It's kind of like we see in medicine, where everyone finds every opportunity they can to bash other specialties. So basically you just nailed it with your post.

 

[Yadster101]

The DPM class is small, only about 30 students. I know two of them left the program to join the 2018 DO class. I'm not sure if they've lost any others. I did hear that their average in gross anatomy last year was higher than ours, and one of our biochem faculty told me their averages in biochem were pretty much the same as ours. That could just be hearsay, obviously I have no direct, 1st hand knowledge. I guess it's possible that boards are a bigger hurdle for them than they are for us, or maybe their boards are easier. I really have no idea though.

Well tbh this post is for someone I know who is thinking applying going to med school but they are worried about if they can handle it. He has a 30 MCAT and a decent gpa (Im sure 3.5+) but he literally studied all day 7 days a wk in undergrad with few ECs (to maximize study time). Im telling him that if DPMs with 21 MCATs can do it then he might be able to do it also. But a CCOM grad recently told him that if he had to study that hard in ug then he may not survive in med school.

 

[touchpause13]

Hi.

I go to DMU

First year the DPMs take almost all the same classes as us- they have pod med, but don't take ethics or behavioral med with us and obviously they don't take OMM. But for the most past they are in all of our same classes, labs, take exams with us and all of that.

2nd year I think their schedule is a bit different and they aren't in all the same classes

 

[Yadster101]

Hi.

I go to DMU

First year the DPMs take almost all the same classes as us- they have pod med, but don't take ethics or behavioral med with us and obviously they don't take OMM. But for the most past they are in all of our same classes, labs, take exams with us and all of that.

2nd year I think their schedule is a bit different and they aren't in all the same classes

How time consuming is OMM?

 

[touchpause13]

How time consuming is OMM?

Couple hours every week on average.

 

[Yadster101]

Couple hours every week on average.

So it takes time but its not like anatomy or other science classes?

 

[NurWollen]

So it takes time but its not like anatomy or other science classes?

I can't speak for other schools but generally OMM is about 1/1000th of the time drain that the basic science courses are.

 

[touchpause13]

I can't speak for other schools but generally OMM is about 1/1000th of the time drain that the basic science courses are.

Accurate

 

[67552931811]

Don't forget though that the GPA averages for DPMs are usually >3.2. Med school courses also vary significantly. The covered information may be roughly the same (i.e. what you need for boards), but the actual curricula, coursework, etc. are in some cases completely different school to school.

There have been multiple articles written about the efficacy of the MCAT in predicting things like success in medical school. The aspect of "success" that was most heavily correlated with MCAT was the first time board pass rates for the first step, but it also seems correlated with completion of medical school in 4-5 years.

Also, the analysis of the new MCAT (below) details this. That's the reason why they are normalizing the new MCAT average to be a score of 500, where 500 and above = high chance of success. The argument was that people pay too much attention to higher = better, where the data shows there are diminishing (or no) returns the higher the score is. They want (or at least they say the want) to make it more of a "threshold" for success, because that's what the data suggests.

Look at the end of this for some data (older data but still somewhat relevant):
https://www.aamc.org/students/download/378098/data/mcat2015scorescaleguide.pdf

Obviously GPA also plays a role in passing Step 1 on first attempt and graduating in 4-5 yrs. It seems the dip is somewhere in the 24-26 range, but below that range there is a steep drop in 5 yr graduation rate (6% drop) and in first attempt of Step 1 pass rate (10% drop). You can see that the initial drop happens somewhere in the 24-26 range (right around 50th percentile for the MCAT), but because its a range there's no way to know exactly where it falls, but at least you can say that below a 24 there's a steep drop.

I also want to make it clear that we are talking about statistics, and as a result we aren't talking about individuals. These only give us correlations, not rules. As you can see virtually everyone accepted to medical school that stays in med school eventually passes the step, so if you are below a certain range (MCAT or GPA) that is consistent with a drop in success, you can most likely change that outcome with better preparation.



This makes sense. I could see a system like that working. Obviously a lot of the medical material is going to overlap, so this is probably a way to get around having two completely separate curricula and lectures (cheaper for the school).



I'm not sure if I'm one of those people you're referring to. As far as this subject goes, its possible your curriculum is the exception rather than the rule. At least in my area, the DPM programs are separate from the medical programs, so obviously my experience is less than yours.

It tends to be the case though that parallel programs are usually not identical. I wouldn't expect a PA program in a MD/DO school to be as in depth as the MD/DO program (obviously a DPM program would be more in depth than a PA program, but they're different). Its not a "better" or "worse" thing. They're different programs that lead to different degrees that result in different jobs. I wouldn't expect them to be identical, because if they were, why wouldn't the DPMs just get an MD/DO or the MD/DOs just get a DPM? I wouldn't do DPM, mainly because I don't see myself as a surgeon, and I wouldn't expect someone who wants to be a DPM to really want to be an internist, neurologist, radiologist, etc.

Obviously, I meant/mean no offense to any individuals or you, and I'm sorry if that's the case.

Totally irrelevant to the topic at hand but since you mentioned the new MCAT I figured I would toss this out there: while I appreciate and agree with the new scoring format, won't schools just look at the percentile and essentially just recruit the same type of student? For example, say a school's average MCAT is usually a 36, won't this same school attempt to matriculate ppl whose percentile is the same on the new format as compared to the old? I don't see how the new format is going to change this.

 

[SLC]

My understanding is that the core courses are extremely similar or identical, but the licensing exams are nowhere near as hard for DPM students as MD/DO

 

[hallowmann]

Totally irrelevant to the topic at hand but since you mentioned the new MCAT I figured I would toss this out there: while I appreciate and agree with the new scoring format, won't schools just look at the percentile and essentially just recruit the same type of student? For example, say a school's average MCAT is usually a 36, won't this same school attempt to matriculate ppl whose percentile is the same on the new format as compared to the old? I don't see how the new format is going to change this.

I guess the idea is that they are trying to narrow the curve closer to 500, so essentially people who had a 34 vs like a 38 for example wouldn't actually have as big of a difference in scores in the new system. It also helps that they're adding CI's. But yeah, realistically a school could just look at the percentiles and cutoff arbitrarily here.

 

[67552931811]

I guess the idea is that they are trying to narrow the curve closer to 500, so essentially people who had a 34 vs like a 38 for example wouldn't actually have as big of a difference in scores in the new system. It also helps that they're adding CI's. But yeah, realistically a school could just look at the percentiles and cutoff arbitrarily here.

Makes sense. Huge fan of confidence intervals, btw.

 

[heybrother]

I think the coverage has been pretty accurate so far. For first year we don't take OMM or ethics, but do take a podiatry course that is a mixed bag of history and odds and ends. I can't speak to the difficulty of OMM, but I distinctly remember being glad to be done with the day or week and knowing my DO friends had 1-2 more tests to study for. Second year we take pharmacology with the DOs and PAs. Its safe to say that as a rule the DPM class average is usually (almost always) a few percent lower than the DO class average. Without a doubt, first year is the DPMs' hardest year academically, and I strongly suspect its when we suffer most of our attrition. I'd like to make a generalization that we have quite a few students who slip through the admissions process, never study, and flunk out, but I doubt that is unique to the DPM program. Our board is certainly less rigorous than the USMLE - its also poorly written and incredibly unpredictable with no uniform method for approaching it. Allow me to elucidate - there are no case studies/multi-order questions on our board.

If any DOs happen to teach DPM students down the road it would be really great if you'd challenge them/teach them. Our internal medicine courses are unfortunately abbreviated second year, but there's nothing worse than being told "you don't really need to know this" over and over again. Reasonably rare, but still occurred too often. It helps feed the bad attitude of slacker students who already believe we don't need to learn things like neuro drugs because we'll never prescribe them. Last thought - I'm very grateful for the education I received and the interdisciplinary opportunities.

 

[W19]

It's strange that they sit in the same classroom and yet there is a 13k/year difference in tuition... Does OMM account for that huge difference?

 

[IslandStyle808]

It's strange that they sit in the same classroom and yet there is a 13k/year difference in tuition... Does OMM account for that huge difference?

Not all Pod schools are where osteopathic students are taught though, so I don't think that is the real reason. One school is in Temple from what I remember. But I too am curious as to what makes their tuition lower?

 

[hallowmann]

Not all Pod schools are where osteopathic students are taught though, so I don't think that is the real reason. One school is in Temple from what I remember. But I too am curious as to what makes their tuition lower?

Yeah, Western, Midwestern-AZ, and DMU are the DO schools with Pod schools. Temple and RFU are the MD schools with Pod schools. Many of these schools have different, but obviously overlapping, especially in first year, curricula for the DPM degree as compared to the MD/DO degree. The rest (4 other accredited schools) are parts of other universities (3) or standalone colleges (1).

As far as the tuition being lower, I wouldn't be surprised if not many people know about the field. I mean outside of medicine, I can't imagine people would easily stumble upon it. That probably keeps competition and tuition down comparatively, but its still not cheap. The average tuition is ~$32k/yr. That's around the public medical school average tuition. I think the real problem is that the average tuition for private medical schools is inflated at like $45k-$50k.

Also, as an aside, while I was looking in to this, I stumbled upon a program from Nova that offers a 3-yr track for DPMs who want to get a DO degree.

I think the coverage has been pretty accurate so far. For first year we don't take OMM or ethics, but do take a podiatry course that is a mixed bag of history and odds and ends. I can't speak to the difficulty of OMM, but I distinctly remember being glad to be done with the day or week and knowing my DO friends had 1-2 more tests to study for. Second year we take pharmacology with the DOs and PAs. Its safe to say that as a rule the DPM class average is usually (almost always) a few percent lower than the DO class average. Without a doubt, first year is the DPMs' hardest year academically, and I strongly suspect its when we suffer most of our attrition. I'd like to make a generalization that we have quite a few students who slip through the admissions process, never study, and flunk out, but I doubt that is unique to the DPM program. Our board is certainly less rigorous than the USMLE - its also poorly written and incredibly unpredictable with no uniform method for approaching it. Allow me to elucidate - there are no case studies/multi-order questions on our board.

If any DOs happen to teach DPM students down the road it would be really great if you'd challenge them/teach them. Our internal medicine courses are unfortunately abbreviated second year, but there's nothing worse than being told "you don't really need to know this" over and over again. Reasonably rare, but still occurred too often. It helps feed the bad attitude of slacker students who already believe we don't need to learn things like neuro drugs because we'll never prescribe them. Last thought - I'm very grateful for the education I received and the interdisciplinary opportunities.

Thanks for the insight! To be fair, I think medical schools have most of their attrition in first year, and then they lose a few because of boards at the end of second year, so that's not too different. How did you learn about the DPM degree? Did you know podiatrists, find it on SDN, etc. (basically how I learned more about DOs)?

 

[Dharma]

I will slap anyone who brings up the MCAT again (just like I b-slapped those boards that did not correlate with my subpar, meaningless, BS-PS-VR exam performance) . Move on.

Now who wants to clip my toe nails?

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

How about midwestern tuition for instance:
DPM = 37K
DO = 58K
Dent = 65K (plus a TON more $$$ for other crap)

Its just a supply and demand thing I suppose. Whichever one people lust after more, they charge higher for.

 

[Yadster101]

I think the coverage has been pretty accurate so far. For first year we don't take OMM or ethics, but do take a podiatry course that is a mixed bag of history and odds and ends. I can't speak to the difficulty of OMM, but I distinctly remember being glad to be done with the day or week and knowing my DO friends had 1-2 more tests to study for. Second year we take pharmacology with the DOs and PAs. Its safe to say that as a rule the DPM class average is usually (almost always) a few percent lower than the DO class average. Without a doubt, first year is the DPMs' hardest year academically, and I strongly suspect its when we suffer most of our attrition. I'd like to make a generalization that we have quite a few students who slip through the admissions process, never study, and flunk out, but I doubt that is unique to the DPM program. Our board is certainly less rigorous than the USMLE - its also poorly written and incredibly unpredictable with no uniform method for approaching it. Allow me to elucidate - there are no case studies/multi-order questions on our board.

If any DOs happen to teach DPM students down the road it would be really great if you'd challenge them/teach them. Our internal medicine courses are unfortunately abbreviated second year, but there's nothing worse than being told "you don't really need to know this" over and over again. Reasonably rare, but still occurred too often. It helps feed the bad attitude of slacker students who already believe we don't need to learn things like neuro drugs because we'll never prescribe them. Last thought - I'm very grateful for the education I received and the interdisciplinary opportunities.

According to the link I posted, in the first post, the DO and DMD anatomy and physio seems to be split up a bit. Do you take part of your anatomy/physio with the DOs or are DOs/DPMs completely separate for anatomy and physio?

 

[Yadster101]

The DPM class is small, only about 30 students. I know two of them left the program to join the 2018 DO class.

It's strange that they sit in the same classroom and yet there is a 13k/year difference in tuition... Does OMM account for that huge difference?

OMG did we just figure out a way to save 13k? Start off as a pod student at DMU and then transfer into the DO class after first year?!

 

[ChrisGriffen]

How time consuming is OMM?

So you are a pod?

Gotta be honest I kind of figured a lot of med students would jump on this to talk down on podiatry. Its pretty sweet that this thread lasted 2 pages and didn't become a pissing contest.

In any case, yes, generally speaking a DPM is the same difficulty as a DO/MD with a few obvious differences. The differences are really just on what is emphasized though.

I do have a question for you though and I really mean no offense by this. What do you guys rotate in for 24 months? Are there really that many types of podiatric subspecialties?

 

[Mad Jack]

It's strange that they sit in the same classroom and yet there is a 13k/year difference in tuition... Does OMM account for that huge difference?

Depends on how many faculty you have and how nice of an OMM facility. Then there's also the extra administrative costs that come along with all of the other exams that DOs have to do versus DPMs, facilities for those exams, etc. Then you have to factor in the administrative salaries of the DO administrators and how many of them there are versus the DPM administrators, as the DO deans are likely making more money, and any DO exclusive research costs. It's probably a fair assessment that a large amount of that 13k goes to DO exclusive overhead.

 

[josebiwasabi]

So you are a pod?

Gotta be honest I kind of figured a lot of med students would jump on this to talk down on podiatry. Its pretty sweet that this thread lasted 2 pages and didn't become a pissing contest.

In any case, yes, generally speaking a DPM is the same difficulty as a DO/MD with a few obvious differences. The differences are really just on what is emphasized though.

I do have a question for you though and I really mean no offense by this. What do you guys rotate in for 24 months? Are there really that many types of podiatric subspecialties?

I'm at 4th year at NYCPM (stand-alone institution), and here are our 3rd/4th year rotations

3rd year:
3 months outpatient podiatric medicine
3 months podiatric surgery
2 months orthopedics/biomechanics (orthotics, taping/strapping, casting, gait analysis)
1 month podopediatrics
1 month radiology
1 month hospitalist/inpatient podiatric medicine
2 weeks physical medicine and rehabilitation
2 weeks interventional cardiology/cath lab

4th year:
5 months externships at various hospitals around the country (analogous to audition rotations)
2 months podiatric surgery
1 month internal medicine
1 month general surgery
1 month emergency medicine

Our home rotations are done at various hospitals throughout upper NYC, primarily Metropolitan Hospital (with NYMC), Lincoln Hospital (level 1 trauma center), and Harlem Hospital. We also have our own on-site clinic at the school. The cath lab rotation is done at Mt. Sinai.

 

[Mad Jack]

So you are a pod?

Gotta be honest I kind of figured a lot of med students would jump on this to talk down on podiatry. Its pretty sweet that this thread lasted 2 pages and didn't become a pissing contest.

In any case, yes, generally speaking a DPM is the same difficulty as a DO/MD with a few obvious differences. The differences are really just on what is emphasized though.

I do have a question for you though and I really mean no offense by this. What do you guys rotate in for 24 months? Are there really that many types of podiatric subspecialties?

I think DOs are a lot less judgey of other health professionals than the average MD because we're used to being on the receiving end of that sort of thing more often than not. Nothing wrong with being a DPM, dentist, optometrist, whatever. They're all fine parts of the medical profession.

Now if we were to talk about chiropractors, on the other hand...

 

[costales]

I'm at 4th year at NYCPM (stand-alone institution), and here are our 3rd/4th year rotations

3rd year:
3 months outpatient podiatric medicine
3 months podiatric surgery
2 months orthopedics/biomechanics (orthotics, taping/strapping, casting, gait analysis)
1 month podopediatrics
1 month radiology
1 month hospitalist/inpatient podiatric medicine
2 weeks physical medicine and rehabilitation
2 weeks interventional cardiology/cath lab

4th year:
5 months externships at various hospitals around the country (analogous to audition rotations)
2 months podiatric surgery
1 month internal medicine
1 month general surgery
1 month emergency medicine

Our home rotations are done at various hospitals throughout upper NYC, primarily Metropolitan Hospital (with NYMC), Lincoln Hospital (level 1 trauma center), and Harlem Hospital. We also have our own on-site clinic at the school. The cath lab rotation is done at Mt. Sinai.

What do you guys get to do in intern year?

 

[josebiwasabi]

What do you guys get to do in intern year?

It depends on the program, but basically everything except for OB/GYN. Here are a few examples of the rotations we complete during podiatry residency:

Highlands/Presbyterian St. Luke's - Denver, CO
Vascular Surgery - four weeks
Internal Medicine - six weeks
Infectious Disease - four weeks
Emergency Medicine - four weeks
Orthopedics - four weeks
Plastic Surgery - two weeks
Radiology - two weeks
Pathology - two weeks
Anesthesia - two weeks
General Surgery - two weeks
Dermatology - two weeks
Private Practice Rotation - two weeks
Behavioral Science - lectures/office consults

MedStar - Washington, D.C.
General Podiatric Surgery
Emergency Medicine
Internal Medicine
Radiology
Anesthesia
Endocrinology
General surgery
Limb Center
General Podiatry
Infectious Disease
Dermatology
Orthopaedics Foot/Ankle
Vascular Surgery
Pediatric Orthopaedics
Pathology
Plastic Surgery
Behavioral Science
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation

Morristown Medical Center - New Jersey
Emergency Medicine 2 months
Internal Medicine 2 months
Infectious Disease 1 month
Pathology 2 weeks
Radiology 2 weeks
Anesthesia 2 weeks
Podiatric Surgery 2.5 months
Behavioral Science 2 weeks
General Surgery 1 month
Surgery Elective 1 month

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I can't speak for other schools but generally OMM is about 1/1000th of the time drain that the basic science courses are.

I dunno. My quality of life hasn't been as high until OMM finished this semester. That 4 hour drain every week and the 3 day cramming for practicals makes a difference.

 

[costales]

It depends on the program, but basically everything except for OB/GYN. Here are a few examples of the rotations we complete during podiatry residency:

Highlands/Presbyterian St. Luke's - Denver, CO
Vascular Surgery - four weeks
Internal Medicine - six weeks
Infectious Disease - four weeks
Emergency Medicine - four weeks
Orthopedics - four weeks
Plastic Surgery - two weeks
Radiology - two weeks
Pathology - two weeks
Anesthesia - two weeks
General Surgery - two weeks
Dermatology - two weeks
Private Practice Rotation - two weeks
Behavioral Science - lectures/office consults

MedStar - Washington, D.C.
General Podiatric Surgery
Emergency Medicine
Internal Medicine
Radiology
Anesthesia
Endocrinology
General surgery
Limb Center
General Podiatry
Infectious Disease
Dermatology
Orthopaedics Foot/Ankle
Vascular Surgery
Pediatric Orthopaedics
Pathology
Plastic Surgery
Behavioral Science
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation

Morristown Medical Center - New Jersey
Emergency Medicine 2 months
Internal Medicine 2 months
Infectious Disease 1 month
Pathology 2 weeks
Radiology 2 weeks
Anesthesia 2 weeks
Podiatric Surgery 2.5 months
Behavioral Science 2 weeks
General Surgery 1 month
Surgery Elective 1 month

I meant what they let you do in the OR - besides rounding pre and post op etc.

 

[Yadster101]

So you are a pod?

Nope

 

[Yadster101]

I think DOs are a lot less judgey of other health professionals than the average MD because we're used to being on the receiving end of that sort of thing more often than not. Nothing wrong with being a DPM, dentist, optometrist, whatever. They're all fine parts of the medical profession.

Now if we were to talk about chiropractors, on the other hand...

Nothing wrong with them at all but the job market for DPMs, Optometrists, and Pharmacists (to an extent) is terrible

EDIT: The reason I was shocked is cuz I've heard the pod job market is TERRIBLE. If I had to go through a curriculum as difficult as med school and still have no job security then I would not do it.

 

[josebiwasabi]

I meant what they let you do in the OR - besides rounding pre and post op etc.

It's highly program dependent. In some programs 1st years are limited to I&Ds, debridements, and amps; 2nd years perform forefoot procedures; and 3rd years do rearfoot/trauma. For other programs, you're doing major reconstructive procedures (flatfoot, cavus foot), calc fractures, ankle fractures etc year 1.

Nothing wrong with them at all but the job market for DPMs, Optometrists, and Pharmacists (to an extent) is terrible

EDIT: The reason I was shocked is cuz I've heard the pod job market is TERRIBLE. If I had to go through a curriculum as difficult as med school and still have no job security then I would not do it.

I still have a few years to go but at the programs I rotated through, none of the 3rd year residents seemed concerned about job prospects. Most already had something lined up, whether it was a job or fellowship.

 

[costales]

Ok, that's what I kinda thought. Have fun, and good luck with everything!

 

[IslandStyle808]

Nothing wrong with them at all but the job market for DPMs, Optometrists, and Pharmacists (to an extent) is terrible

EDIT: The reason I was shocked is cuz I've heard the pod job market is TERRIBLE. If I had to go through a curriculum as difficult as med school and still have no job security then I would not do it.

I have read the pod forums and I don't think the job market is terrible. Some of the posters have stated that certain areas are difficult to find a job, but if you are flexible in where you want to work you should find one. Plus you can pretty much set up shop by yourself (depending on what you do). Autonomy in addition to being in a niche is what makes certain professional degrees very attractive.

 

[darklabel]

Nothing wrong with them at all but the job market for DPMs, Optometrists, and Pharmacists (to an extent) is terrible

EDIT: The reason I was shocked is cuz I've heard the pod job market is TERRIBLE. If I had to go through a curriculum as difficult as med school and still have no job security then I would not do it.

It's not. It's not as robust as some physician specialities, but it's not terrible by any stretch, especially in comparison with Optometry and Pharmacy. The main problem is there are less residencies than there are graduates.

 

[Podiatry1]

I will take a bite at this thread but wont respond to everything. If anyone has any questions about podiatry from a current 4th year student, please feel free to ask. I do not go to DMU but go to a school that has a MD school.

As far as the low MCAT score to get in. Yes it is true that people with < 20 MCAT get into pod school sometimes. Not all the time, but sometimes. The average score at my particular school seems to be a 23 or 24 from what I remember... but that was so long ago at this point that I forget. Then again, I know for a fact that people with 22-24 get into DO programs also ... I know several people at DO school who had that score.. Granted I know this is the exception and not the rule and DO schools have a higher MCAT than pod.

Podiatry schools have a much higher attrition rate than MD/DO programs. This was mentioned above. At my school, 20 or so people from my class have either failed out or changed careers to nursing / PA. While it is certainly much easier to GET INTO podiatry school than a MD/DO program, it is just (or very close to) as hard to STAY IN podiatry school. From anecdotal experience, roughly 75% of the people in my school who failed out had no business practicing medicine. They were people who thought pod school as a joke and a easy way to be a doctor. They didnt study or try, and got wiped out very early in the process. Potentially these were the people who had super low MCATS. The other 15% consisted of people who decided it wasnt for them and left to be PAs... one of my good friends got accepted to a MD program and left to do that (had to take first year again).

The school itself is very brutal. I have never been to a MD or DO school, so I obviously cannot compare, however I studied around the clock during my first two years of pod school. 24/7 I was studying. I could not have studied any more if I tried. I honestly cannot imagine anything being any more tough or time consuming. Could MD/DO school be? Maybe. Like I said I am speaking from anecdotal experience. What I am saying is that the first two years of pod school is very challenging and by no means a joke. At my school, we take roughly 75% identical curriculum to MD students taught by same professors.. same exams etc.. 25% podiatry specific courses (lower extremity anatomy, pod surg, biomechanics, pathomechanics, etc).

The second two years is quite different from med school. Year three we have a mix of MD/DO rotations and podiatry clinical based rotations. Fourth year is focused on externships (auditions) but we have some MD / DO roations as well. I personally did Ortho Surg, Neurology, and Internal Med rotations along with my podiatry rotations... All with MD or DOs and they expect the same from you.

Our board exams suck. Plain and simple. They are very hard to study for because no study guide exists and the organization that makes them is atrocious. We have to use first aid to study for step 1 but its a wash.. some of it was helpful and some of it wasnt. I am taking step 2 very soon and we will see how that goes.

This year was the first year we had step 2 cs... it was made by the USMLE. I believe our profession is hoping of switching from the current group of exam makers (NBPME) to the USMLE, however there are a TON of legal loopholes to jump through before that happens.

If you ask me the biggest downfall of podiatry education is , I would say the board exams. Thats the general consensus.

The majority of people who graduate with a DPM are very well trained and well educated. There are some who slip through the cracks though and are not. I know a select few people who I would be horrified to get medical care from who have DPM degrees. This is the exception by far and not the rule by any means. This might be the same in md/do programs tho I have no idea.

Surgical training varies depending on the residency. Some residencies prepare you to do really complex reconstructive procedures, some are just forefoot surgery (bunions, hammertoes etc). It all depends on what type of stuff you are interested in doing when you finish pod school. It seems to me that these days the three paths that people end up doing in podiatry. Forefoot surgery (bunions/ hamer toes etc) goes hand and hand with all of these:

Wound care (diabetic / neuropathic wounds)
Rearfoot Surgery (big F+A cases... same exact thing as foot and ankle ortho... IM nails, triple arthrodesis, club foot recon, mid foot fusions etc)
General Podiatry (clip nails, orthotics, biomechanics etc)

Anyways.. If you have any questions about this profession please let me know and I will be more than glad to answer as truthfully as I can. Like I said I am a 4th year student so not even a resident yet but I feel like I have a decent understanding of the profession at this point.

EDIT: Some one above asked if we do a intern year. Some programs have them some do not. There are a increasing amount of 4 year residency programs.. At these programs the first year is a medicine intern year with podiatry thrown in there as well. Some 3 years program have a decent amount of medicine as well. Its a hit or miss depending on where you end up going.

 

[GUH]

Its just surprising to think ppl with 21 MCATs are passing the same difficult program that MD/DOs are going through.

At Western, they quite simply are not. Attrition among our first-year DPM's last year was astronomical. They take most of the same courses that the DO students do.

To be fair, some of the DPMs are brilliant and outperform many of the DO students. But overall, the DPM rate of droupouts and repeats seems significantly higher.