DO Bias in Residency Apps - any improvement this cycle?

[jacksparrow69]

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[NecFasc92]

Same here. Based on years past I should be sitting at double the interviews with my application.

 

[Alkain]

I think you may have underestimated how competitive Psych has gotten.

 

[Cath Up]

I think you may have underestimated how competitive Psych has gotten.

Could be possible. At the same time, if this is a DO student with a 250+ Step 1 and good rotation performance, that's terrifying.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Its not easy, I agree. I am at 10 invites as of today 3 backup and 7 primary and honestly I am getting love from not so great places besides my aways. I am grateful but it does suck, I feel like my saving grace is the letter I got from the first away. Its just the nature of the beast tho. Interviews seem to roll in randomly I am sure you will get more.

 

[Trollest]

It is only the start. It will get worse. Eventually, Mid-tier and top tier schools will stop interviewing student from unranked/low tier schools.

 

[Chibucks15]

It is only the start. It will get worse. Eventually, Mid-tier and top tier schools will stop interviewing student from unranked/low tier schools.

You’re really living up to your name recently bravo

 

[Ho0v-man]

I was surprised to learn that the programs at my core site haven’t even sent out interviews for anyone except those that auditioned. I’m sure my anxiety will be through the roof this time next year, but there’s still plenty of interviews to be had everyone. Good luck!

 

[Epilepsy365]

See my nick to guess which specialty that I'm applying to.

But, as a DO, you're always going to be second class when it comes to II regardless of specialties. Your school region plus home undergrad plus work places are the way to unlock those regions, whereas a MD has access to every program out there. It sucks. Aways are now competitive as hell too.

My only advice to kids out there targeting certain programs is to do aways at those places, work every day including Saturday + Sunday + holiday even if it's not mandatory, go to all events known to that specialty, and show your face to as many faculty members as possible.

 

[DO2015CA]

It’s also early. October 15 is when your deans letter releases if I remember right. I saw another surge of programs send out interviews after that

 

[NecFasc92]

It’s also early. October 15 is when your deans letter releases if I remember right. I saw another surge of programs send out interviews after that

10/1

Not 15

 

[AlteredScale]

So I just met some MD students at a regional conference. The 4th years were sitting on around 6-9 interviews now. So its pretty slow for everyone. For those that have more on the DO side, they applied to a TON more programs or more less competitive programs.

It’s also early. October 15 is when your deans letter releases if I remember right. I saw another surge of programs send out interviews after that

October 1 is now when MSPE is release. I think Oct 15 is some sort of special date however as the date is talked about alot.

 

[Epilepsy365]

It’s also early. October 15 is when your deans letter releases if I remember right. I saw another surge of programs send out interviews after that

Nope, it's released Oct 1 this year. I'm getting about 2-3 Its per week so far. I'll match and do well no matter where I go, but it's not flowing in hard like some of my MD friends on the interview trail.

 

[MrTaco92]

Maybe this is specific to psych, since it's so quickly becoming more competitive? Can I ask where your school is located, since that can also play a role in who invites you to interview? Anyway, I dont know how psych's timeline works, but it's only been 9 days since MSPE was released. You're definitely on many radars at the moment and I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised in about a month once all programs have sent out all their invites.

I'm a fourth year in the northeast and I'm applying for radiology. Most invites that have gone out so far are east coast and midwest programs. So far it kinda seems like people with less invites are either from the west coast even though they're competitive, or just non-competitive applicants in general. Slightly less competitive northeast and midwest DO's seem ok in terms of # of invites because there are so many programs nearby that are DO friendly. Overall I feel like the discrimination is present but a little more like a 240+ DO would be equivalent to a MD in the 230's. But maybe we have to add that this would be under the assumption you're in a geographically favorable region.

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

Jacksparrow69 - can you PM me, I have questions for you.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

How many programs did you apply to?

 

[BorderlineQueen]

Its not easy, I agree. I am at 10 invites as of today 3 backup and 7 primary and honestly I am getting love from not so great places besides my aways. I am grateful but it does suck, I feel like my saving grace is the letter I got from the first away. Its just the nature of the beast tho. Interviews seem to roll in randomly I am sure you will get more.

I love your new signature. My goal also is to open a DO school. I think my basement is large enough to hold around 100-150 people if they all cram and sit on the floor. Then for M3-M4 I will find some rotations in the community. I will do everything I can in my power to alleviate the rural pcp shortage. It’s all about a$$eviating the primary care shortage to make sure patients get ace$$ to physicians. I am no way motivated by prof$t.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

Also op chill with that stat a step of 250 you have a 100% chance of matching. Unless you only applied top heavy. If you have good lor, good clerkship evaluations you should be good.

 

[jacksparrow69]

Maybe this is specific to psych, since it's so quickly becoming more competitive? Can I ask where your school is located, since that can also play a role in who invites you to interview? Anyway, I dont know how psych's timeline works, but it's only been 9 days since MSPE was released. You're definitely on many radars at the moment and I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised in about a month once all programs have sent out all their invites.

I'm a fourth year in the northeast and I'm applying for radiology. Most invites that have gone out so far are east coast and midwest programs. So far it kinda seems like people with less invites are either from the west coast even though they're competitive, or just non-competitive applicants in general. Slightly less competitive northeast and midwest DO's seem ok in terms of # of invites because there are so many programs nearby that are DO friendly. Overall I feel like the discrimination is present but a little more like a 240+ DO would be equivalent to a MD in the 230's. But maybe we have to add that this would be under the assumption you're in a geographically favorable region.

I’m in the Midwest. All of my invites have been regional so far. I guess I’ll just play the waiting game!

 

[Giovanotto]

See my nick to guess which specialty that I'm applying to.

But, as a DO, you're always going to be second class when it comes to II regardless of specialties. Your school region plus home undergrad plus work places are the way to unlock those regions, whereas a MD has access to every program out there. It sucks. Aways are now competitive as hell too.

My only advice to kids out there targeting certain programs is to do aways at those places, work every day including Saturday + Sunday + holiday even if it's not mandatory, go to all events known to that specialty, and show your face to as many faculty members as possible.

yes, and no. Be smart about it. Don't just go in on a weekend with an attending that isn't part of the faculty. Don't go in on weekend days where all the team wants to do is go home as early as possible. Overall, what you're saying is good advice, but as always, be smart and strategic about it, or you'll end up a suck-up at best, and burnt out at worst.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I love your new signature. My goal also is to open a DO school. I think my basement is large enough to hold around 100-150 people if they all cram and sit on the floor. Then for M3-M4 I will find some rotations in the community. I will do everything I can in my power to alleviate the rural pcp shortage. It’s all about a$$eviating the primary care shortage to make sure patients get ace$$ to physicians. I am no way motivated by prof$t.

That signature is like 2 years old fyi. . that has been my thing before it was cool

 

[Rekt]

So I just met some MD students at a regional conference. The 4th years were sitting on around 6-9 interviews now. So its pretty slow for everyone. For those that have more on the DO side, they applied to a TON more programs or more less competitive programs.



October 1 is now when MSPE is release. I think Oct 15 is some sort of special date however as the date is talked about alot.

10/15 is a self created date for a unified release of invites for EM. Although it's only like 20-25 places or so for now.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Relax ,its early. One of my advisees was stressing last yesr because he had no IIs in Nov. He ended up with 3 top 10 interviews and others starting in Dec. Matched his 1st choice. I get the stress, try to be patient. The bias is not as bad as you think
Good luck and best wishes!

 

[MADD!!!]

Everyone is so dam obsessed about board scores... and for psych that’s simply not the main factor they look at. And yes it’s more competitive but so many psych spots have also been created in the last few years to help keep pace. Unfortunately, I believe geography plays a big role.

If you’re from the west your chances of matching psych are considerably harder than from a northeast school.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

Everyone is so dam obsessed about board scores... and for psych that’s simply not the main factor they look at. And yes it’s more competitive but so many psych spots have also been created in the last few years to help keep pace. Unfortunately, I believe geography plays a big role.

If you’re from the west your chances of matching psych are considerably harder than from a northeast school.

According to NRMP data if OP has a 250+ step they have a 100% chance of matching. Unless they failed a class or something else.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Relax ,its early. One of my advisees was stressing last yesr because he had no IIs in Nov. He ended up with 3 top 10 interviews and others starting in Dec. Matched his 1st choice. I get the stress, try to be patient. The bias is not as bad as you think
Good luck and best wishes!

Which specialty and his relative stats? FM in the Dakotas doesn't count.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Which specialty and his relative stats? FM in the Dakotas doesn't count.

I don't think there is a top 10 FM located in the Dakotas.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Everyone is so dam obsessed about board scores... and for psych that’s simply not the main factor they look at. And yes it’s more competitive but so many psych spots have also been created in the last few years to help keep pace. Unfortunately, I believe geography plays a big role.

If you’re from the west your chances of matching psych are considerably harder than from a northeast school.

Where's your MyEras stamp? I don't want to hear any opinion about the residency application process unless you're currently a MSIV or above.

 

[PC89]

It’s been a mixed bag for myself applying to IM. Mostly University programs with mainly mid tier. Declined from top 10 but to be expected as a DO. I would say there is still a discrimination at upper mid to upper tier programs. I do recommend applying broadly it opens up options.

 

[Chibucks15]

Do ‘tiers’ honestly matter at all for things like FM? And hell even IM if you aren’t planning fellowship or academia tiers mean jack. Everyone just loves to puff their chests out saying this top 10 nonsense. If you wanted that ya shoulda gone MD

 

[PC89]

Everyone is so dam obsessed about board scores... and for psych that’s simply not the main factor they look at. And yes it’s more competitive but so many psych spots have also been created in the last few years to help keep pace. Unfortunately, I believe geography plays a big role.

If you’re from the west your chances of matching psych are considerably harder than from a northeast school.

Except board scores get you past the screen as well as acts as a big part of the ranking process. All per directors survey.

https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

 

[AlteredScale]

In regards to IM at university programs, DO bias is most def there and its getting harder and harder to land interviews at some places that many of us assumed would be easy II from previous years.

Except board scores get you past the screen as well as acts as a big part of the ranking process. All per directors survey.

https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

Scores still count for something in the ranking process however I wouldn’t read too far into these surveys. Yes it’s still important but its role post interview is still widely varied based on program (about 40-60% of PDs actually answer this survey).

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Which specialty and his relative stats? FM in the Dakotas doesn't count.

Wont reveal specialty to protect their anonymity. 240+ Step 1. Number one program in the nation. NOT FM. Did not receive an interview request until Dec. 3 top 10 interviews. Not in the Dakotas, in the Northeast. Yeah, it can happen. Be patient. OP, you should be fine if you play the Match Game well.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Everyone just loves to puff their chests out saying this top 10 nonsense

Say it louder for the people in the back. Literally means nothing if you don't want to go into academia or fellowship. If I hopefully match into any of the IM programs near my hometown, it would be looked at on SDN as a whatever match, even though it would be my first choice.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Say it louder for the people in the back. Literally means nothing if you don't want to go into academia or fellowship. If I hopefully match into any of the IM programs near my hometown, it would be looked at on SDN as a whatever match, even though it would be my first choice.

Absolutely. When I mention program or school ranking it is usually in the context of DO bias or pedigree bigotry, which I have pointed out numerous times that MDs do it to each other also, not just DOs. Plenty of very excellent training at DO friendly places. Top 10 silliness is only valuable if you want to be a PD or academic Chair.

 

[Kardio]

In regards to IM at university programs

its getting harder and harder to land interviews at some places that many of us assumed would be easy II from previous years.

Could you share what makes you see it this way?

Anecdotally, the match lists from schools I am interested in didn’t look too bad (i.e., >50% of IM matches had in-house fellowships, ~1/3 were university-based).

More broadly, 6/10 and 4/10 DOs applying to Cards and GI (respectfully) got it, per 2018 charting outcomes.

Admittedly, I haven’t looked at previous years’ data and am not knowledgeable if there’s a trend.

 

[AlteredScale]

Could you share what makes you see it this way?

Anecdotally, the match lists from schools I am interested in didn’t look too bad (i.e., >50% of IM matches had in-house fellowships, ~1/3 were university-based).

More broadly, 6/10 and 4/10 DOs applying to Cards and GI (respectfully) got it, per 2018 charting outcomes.

Admittedly, I haven’t looked at previous years’ data and am not knowledgeable if there’s a trend.

Sorry, I'm basing it off current observations from colleagues and through forums like reddit and SDN (so very anecdotal as well). At places where DO's pretty consistently matched in the previous 1-3 years, I'm just not seeing as many II to people that I know with pretty stellar apps (good solid board scores, good research, decent letter). It's still early in the game for sure but it feels like its getting to the point where invites specifically to uni programs are just for WL. There seems to be a big flux of competitive applicants now but again, my observations are skewed in looking at these forums.

DO's entering fellowship is a different game. GI and cards being some of the hardest to match as a DO. Of the ones matching I am assuming these are people coming from strong programs with in house fellowship.

Please don't ask me if this has anything to do with the merger because I have absolutely no clue.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Sorry, I'm basing it off current observations from colleagues and through forums like reddit and SDN (so very anecdotal as well). At places where DO's pretty consistently matched in the previous 1-3 years, I'm just not seeing as many II to people that I know with pretty stellar apps (good solid board scores, good research, decent letter). It's still early in the game for sure but it feels like its getting to the point where invites specifically to uni programs are just for WL. There seems to be a big flux of competitive applicants now but again, my observations are skewed in looking at these forums.

DO's entering fellowship is a different game. GI and cards being some of the hardest to match as a DO. Of the ones matching I am assuming these are people coming from strong programs with in house fellowship.

Please don't ask me if this has anything to do with the merger because I have absolutely no clue.

I would bet lots of money it has nothing to do with the merger and everything to do with there simply being a lot more applicants. At some point the massive expansion of applicants is going to really hurt a lot of people’s match potential.

 

[AlteredScale]

I would bet lots of money it has nothing to do with the merger and everything to do with there simply being a lot more applicants. At some point the massive expansion of applicants is going to really hurt a lot of people’s match potential.

Yep totally agree. There's more applicants with better applications and scores now going into IM. And with the new DO schools coming it most definitely is going to make things harder for someone wanting to pursue residency training at a uni

 

[Kardio]

Sorry, I'm basing it off current observations from colleagues and through forums like reddit and SDN (so very anecdotal as well). At places where DO's pretty consistently matched in the previous 1-3 years, I'm just not seeing as many II to people that I know with pretty stellar apps (good solid board scores, good research, decent letter). It's still early in the game for sure but it feels like its getting to the point where invites specifically to uni programs are just for WL. There seems to be a big flux of competitive applicants now but again, my observations are skewed in looking at these forums.

DO's entering fellowship is a different game. GI and cards being some of the hardest to match as a DO. Of the ones matching I am assuming these are people coming from strong programs with in house fellowship.

Please don't ask me if this has anything to do with the merger because I have absolutely no clue.

Thanks for sharing that reasoning. I’ve seen the ‘downward trend’ sentiment very frequently on here recently, and was just curious about why so many are feeling this way. I was just referencing that fellowship data as a quasi-proxy for the frequency of DOs currently in ‘strong’ IM programs.

 

[AlteredScale]

Thanks for sharing that reasoning. I’ve seen the ‘downward trend’ sentiment very frequently on here recently, and was just curious about why so many are feeling this way. I was just referencing that fellowship data as a quasi-proxy for the frequency of DOs currently in ‘strong’ IM programs.

No problem. I know the reasoning isn't that well thought out and is just based on loose observation but I feel like I am making fair judgment to it tbh.

That makes sense, I agree that currently there are DO's in some great IM programs and are succeeding in getting fellowships.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Well, I guess I can lay my Cardiology dreams to rest now. Pulm/Crit here I come lol.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

 

[Kardio]

Well, I guess I can lay my Cardiology dreams to rest now. Pulm/Crit here I come lol.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

I’m not so sure about that. The landscape will be more clear (and less tinted by the stress of residency applications) by the time 2020 match lists and NRMP data are produced.

 

[AlteredScale]

Well, I guess I can lay my Cardiology dreams to rest now. Pulm/Crit here I come lol.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

There are still a good amount of cards/PCC fellowships at IM community programs that were previously AOA. You have a shot still. Not saying DO's aren't getting uni anymore just that it "appears" more difficult at this time.

 

[DO2015CA]

There are still a good amount of cards/PCC fellowships at IM community programs that were previously AOA. You have a shot still. Not saying DO's aren't getting uni anymore just that it "appears" more difficult at this time.

I would almost say pulm/crit would also be a long shot. Pulm/crit is not some easy fellowship to lend either

 

[AlteredScale]

I would almost say pulm/crit would also be a long shot. Pulm/crit is not some easy fellowship to lend either

Agreed. I guess I ws just speaking of in the context of a DO not being able to enter a uni program that there are still chances to do PCC if you go to a former AOA IM program with in house PCC.

 

[DO2015CA]

Agreed. I guess I ws just speaking of in the context of a DO not being able to enter a uni program that there are still chances to do PCC if you go to a former AOA IM program with in house PCC.

Sure same goes with cards. I’m just proposing that there are more community IM with in house cards than pcc fellowships. To me, albeit I’m not in IM, but that says you are more likely to get cards compared to pcc

 

[AlteredScale]

Sure same goes with cards. I’m just proposing that there are more community IM with in house cards than pcc fellowships. To me, albeit I’m not in IM, but that says you are more likely to get cards compared to pcc

I am unaware of the total number of cards to PCC but that def makes sense if there's more cards fellowships for sure.

 

[Prehealth1011]

A little off topic but does anyone know when the next charting outcomes for DOs will come out? I’m 3rd year and trying to figure out if it’ll be out before ERAS opens.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Charting outcomes doesn't come out every year. They release a new one every 2-3 years. Last one was in July 2018. So July 2020 or 2021 is probably the most likely next one. Nothing changes that quickly from a trend standpoint anyways. The charting outcomes data from 2018 is just as applicable this year as it will be next year, and the year after.