I'm not referring to programs that wait until Nov. 1 to send out invites...I'm referring to programs where (according to SDN at least) they have already filled all of their interview spots. Would you try emailing or calling the PD at this point? Or find people who didn't already write you LORs to call on your behalf? I have been receiving interview invites, but 2 programs that I really like seem to have passed me over.
Emailing programs that haven't invited you yet
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I would still wait until November 1.
For the applicants who already got invites, they got invites because their stuff was good enough to get an interview granted for them. For all others who haven't received invites yet from that program, a couple of reasons --
1. You applied later than those who already got invites. They haven't gotten to your app yet.
2. They need to see your Dean's letter before they make a decision on you. You haven't received a rejection yet, so you're still in the running.
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I agree... wait until at least after the MSPE is released.
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So, if they're 2 programs that you really want to be at & you see a lot of IV's have been sent out per SDN (>10 at least), I would make a call and let them know how much you want to be there. But, I would only do this if this is a program that I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to be at, no (b/s)ing around (trying to increase interview no's would not be worth a call)....If you really want it, go get it...
Sorry underdog, frugal, don't mean to play the devil's advocate...
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So, if they're 2 programs that you really want to be at & you see a lot of IV's have been sent out per SDN (>10 at least), I would make a call and let them know how much you want to be there. But, I would only do this if this is a program that I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to be at, no (b/s)ing around (trying to increase interview no's would not be worth a call)....If you really want it, go get it...
Sorry underdog, frugal, don't mean to play the devil's advocate...
I got an interview invite in one city that is pretty far away and there is also another program in that same city I want to check out. They sent out their first batch of interview invites the same day they downloaded my app (sent in my app Sept 15) and so I guess I missed that first round of reviewing. Is it worth calling them, or should I email? I need to schedule my other interview soon, since of course they are only scheduling through December...
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I don't see what the big deal is. Shoot the PC an email...it may not help but it certainly won't hurt. And sending an email doesn't obligate you to rank them #1 if you get an interview and find you don't like it as much as you thought you would. I think people are putting too much stock in this.
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any advice on how to ask? should i mention that im going to be in the area for another program or just say that i'll be in the area?
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The former.
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I would just say that you're very interested in the program (say why) and that you were wondering when you'll know the status of your application because you're going to be in the area. Something like that.
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so i am in dilemma, my undergrad alumni program where i really wanna be, i am trying to contact my PC seem never to answer her phone, tried over a week at different times, emailed her no response back, should i just contact the PD? or would i be annoying them to much?
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I know all of you guys are anxious and the wait for invites is killing you. But to clear this up, you guys should wait until November before emailing programs about your status, etc.
If you haven't received an invite yet, nor a rejection, chances are that the program is waiting for the MSPE to come out. In IM, programs usually fill anywhere between 25-75% of their interview spots BEFORE november 1. the number is closer to 50%. check the NRMP statistics (program director survey) to check your specialty. this is why earlier appicants are favored, even though the app isn't completely yet. invites are first come and first served.
the other 50% or so spots are reserved for those after reviewing the MSPE. so believe me -- a huge surge of invites will go out in that first week of november. if you don't believe me, you can search the 2008-09 invites thread and see the amount of interviews ben updated in early novemeber. a lot of the big northeast programs also notoriously love to wait for november 1. one that comes to mind is beth israel deaconess, which explicity said in their email that they sent out to applicants.
it is unadvisable to email programs before nov 1 about your status. also, if you have an invite set up in their area already, but haven't heard from the other programs yet, you still should wait until early novemeber before making arrangements or calling / emailing the program. the reason why it's been so quiet on the invites right now is because programs are waiting for the MSPE. you do see periodic invites go out because those are applicants that already look good enough that it wouldn't matter what the MSPE said; OR that particular appicant got an invite for whatever reason (i.e. did an away rotation there that month).
if you don't believe me, go ahead and email / call your program. you'll learn the hard way (as did i) and see that i am right.
If you haven't received an invite yet, nor a rejection, chances are that the program is waiting for the MSPE to come out. In IM, programs usually fill anywhere between 25-75% of their interview spots BEFORE november 1. the number is closer to 50%. check the NRMP statistics (program director survey) to check your specialty. this is why earlier appicants are favored, even though the app isn't completely yet. invites are first come and first served.
the other 50% or so spots are reserved for those after reviewing the MSPE. so believe me -- a huge surge of invites will go out in that first week of november. if you don't believe me, you can search the 2008-09 invites thread and see the amount of interviews ben updated in early novemeber. a lot of the big northeast programs also notoriously love to wait for november 1. one that comes to mind is beth israel deaconess, which explicity said in their email that they sent out to applicants.
it is unadvisable to email programs before nov 1 about your status. also, if you have an invite set up in their area already, but haven't heard from the other programs yet, you still should wait until early novemeber before making arrangements or calling / emailing the program. the reason why it's been so quiet on the invites right now is because programs are waiting for the MSPE. you do see periodic invites go out because those are applicants that already look good enough that it wouldn't matter what the MSPE said; OR that particular appicant got an invite for whatever reason (i.e. did an away rotation there that month).
if you don't believe me, go ahead and email / call your program. you'll learn the hard way (as did i) and see that i am right.
I think it depends on the specialty though. In the specialty to which I am applying (not IM), there are a couple programs that have already filled all of their interview spots, and ONLY have waitlist spots left. My originial question was referring to what to do about THESE programs, not about programs that still have spots left for after nov. 1. Should I still not do anything right now?
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I guess my question is, what's on the MSPE that's not already somewhere on your app/transcripts? Ranking compared to your fellow colleagues? But you can get a rough idea based on that transcript. Hmmm, just wondering.
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No...you can't. Some schools have reputations for giving lots of Passes (vs. HP or Honors) while others swing the other way, still others have a shockingly bell-shaped distribution of grades. And different rotations within a school will grade differently. Being compared to your peers, as well as to the bulk of students in the country in your year (via Shelf scores) is the purpose of the MSPE.
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Great question! The MSPE is the most important LOR of all your LORs for almost all specialties. check the program director survey on the NRMP website, if you don't believe me. it is the #1 ranked most important item, at least for IM and many others.
the MSPE doesn't just tell you your grades, that anyone can see on your transcript. it tells if you had gaps in your school. did you leave for 2 weeks to seek drug rehab? did you leave for 6 months because a parent died? did you stay behind a year because your spouse said that she/he would divorce you because medical school was taking too much time away from the marriage?
it also gives a breakdown of your grades. it is called the histogram. so we all know you got a HP in surgery.. it even says on the transcript. but the histogram shows how many people got a HP, P, or Honors. it can show that you got Honors in neurology, but then everyone got also got Honors.
class rank, in some shape way or form, is on your MSPE. ask your dean. almost every AMerican MD school puts a class rank on the MSPE... whether a actual number rank, a quartile system, or a half (i.e. top or bottom half) system.
lastly, the comments section is really important under all the clerkships. your transcript shows that you got a Pass in OBGYN, but what the dean's letter OBGYN comments shows is that during that rotation, you had behavioral issues... you got mad with the attending and threw a chair out the window. sounds bizarre, but it's true! i know somebody who didn't match because of this comment. not all dean's letters are filled with fluff. that is a myth.
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I've also heard conflicting information about the importance of the MSPE. I've got to say that it is pretty much fluff at my school and probably at lots of others. For example, we have "below the line" comments on evaluations where evaluations show stuff that applicants need to work on but that will not be included in the mspe. Consequently, for most people I know, anything even slightly negative won't get put in the reportable area. I know for a fact that we're not the only school who uses this method.
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I can't push the MSPE argument any futher.
Believe what you want, but a lot of university programs, especialy in the Northeast, wait for the MSPE to come out. There is a golden reason why programs won't send out invites until Nov 1. The program director survey on the NRMP website has statistics backing this claim. That's how important it is.
Believe what you want, but a lot of university programs, especialy in the Northeast, wait for the MSPE to come out. There is a golden reason why programs won't send out invites until Nov 1. The program director survey on the NRMP website has statistics backing this claim. That's how important it is.
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Maybe, but I think there's another study that says pretty much the opposite. It's been quoted here on SDN pretty recently. Also, yeah, it probably is program and specialty dependent.
To get back to the original question, in the field I'm applying in, very few programs wait for the MSPE before giving interview invitations -- in fact, a lot start interviewing before Nov. 1. I actually think it would be OK to go ahead and contact a program that has already given lots of interviews to express your interest before Nov. 1. Even if they are waiting for the MSPE, I don't see the harm in sending a friendly, brief email.
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I don't really see the point of these emails. I try to look at it from their point of view which is that all of the applicants to my program want desperately to come here and want to be in my specialty. Therefore, I don't really understand what an email to a PD, PC or resident will really accomplish. I'm assuming a "friendly, brief email" means something like "my name is ___, i'm applying for a residency position in your program. I really want to come here as I think the program has great attendings and produce excellent physicians. I would love an opportunity to interview for a residency position at your program. Thank you for your time".
If I was a PD or PC and I'd get a couple of dozen of these per day, especially prior to nov 1st, I might even get a bit annoyed and most likely would not think better of the applicant in question.
I don't know... just my opinion.
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Suppose you're a program director, and you have to choose between two similar applicants in offering an interview, one of whom has sent a brief email and one of whom hasn't. All other factors being similar, which applicant do you think is more interested in the program and likely to rank the program higher?
Even if the program is one of the best in the specialty, not all applicants are equally interested in the program. And if the program attracts hundreds of qualified applicants who are otherwise difficult to separate, it makes sense for the program director to go by indirect markers of applicant interest to sort them all out.
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how did you learn the hard way? that will help prove your point and serve as a warning more than anything. otherwise, expressing interest in a school you know has sent out a bunch of interviews already will probably help, not hurt.
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i gave this a try and it worked (within 2 business days). unfortunately, the interview date that i desperately needed (so i could make one trip to interview at two places in the same city) was already taken...so i guess it didn't work out in that sense. oh well. time to do some canceling, switching, and whatnot.
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did you email the PC or PD?
i tried emailing/ calling the PC but she has not replied?
should i go ahead and contact and harass the PD? I really do want to be at the program and my patience is running thin
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I only emailed the PC. I thought about this for a while and decided that the only reason a program would give me an invite after I email if they haven't already done so already is if they weren't really sure that I was interested (vs. if they deemed me not as competitive an applicant). Therefore, emailing the PC is like saying, "Hey, I really want to be there!" and she or he will pass on the message. If you email the PD, you run the risk of seeming too impatient or high-maintenance. Plus, they're busy enough already -- why add to their day in a negative way?
Two more things to keep in mind. Programs are now probably waiting for November 1st, since it's so close. Also, if you don't have an invite because they didn't think your qualifications were high enough, then I don't think any of this would work for you.
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I understand the desire to email, it will make you feel like you exhausted every option - like you left it all on the field. That way if you don't get an interview you can't ask yourself "what if I just emailed".
I will probably end up emailing a program or two, this is what I plan on doing. Waiting until Nov. 2 and then sending an email to the PC. That way he/she can dig through the stack of freshly printed MSPEs, snatch yours out of the pile and place it with the rest of your application, put your newly complete app. at the top of the pile and convey your interest to the PD.
If you send an email prior to Nov. 1, you'll probably get an email saying they are waiting for the MSPE. Then you will be forgotten because the PC are very busy this time of year. Then when you email again you will get the label of being annoying.
Just wait 'till the MSPE is realeased, that way the PC can complete you app. and get it to the PD for her/him to review.
well thats my strategy
I will probably end up emailing a program or two, this is what I plan on doing. Waiting until Nov. 2 and then sending an email to the PC. That way he/she can dig through the stack of freshly printed MSPEs, snatch yours out of the pile and place it with the rest of your application, put your newly complete app. at the top of the pile and convey your interest to the PD.
If you send an email prior to Nov. 1, you'll probably get an email saying they are waiting for the MSPE. Then you will be forgotten because the PC are very busy this time of year. Then when you email again you will get the label of being annoying.
Just wait 'till the MSPE is realeased, that way the PC can complete you app. and get it to the PD for her/him to review.
well thats my strategy
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since it's so close to nov 1st I might wait now, but when I did email, it was like mid-october. I didn't directly convey my interest but asked a question that indirectly indicated I would like to interview there. also gave me a chance to remind them I had done an away there. two days later they sent me an invite (but didn't respond to my original email or answer my question 
)
on the other hand, I did email another program last week and have heard nothing (interview or otherwise)
)on the other hand, I did email another program last week and have heard nothing (interview or otherwise)
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since it's so close to nov 1st I might wait now, but when I did email, it was like mid-october. I didn't directly convey my interest but asked a question that indirectly indicated I would like to interview there. also gave me a chance to remind them I had done an away there. two days later they sent me an invite (but didn't respond to my original email or answer my question
on the other hand, I did email another program last week and have heard nothing (interview or otherwise)
The away elective definitely had something to do with this one. When you are an away elective student interested in them and assuming you did decently on that rotation, iyou deserve to write to them if they have already sent out a few invites (assuming its not in the top-top tier of programs) and it should work to get you an invite.
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You wait until a bit later in the process, and then email the PD. Talk about how interested you are in the program and how you'd love the opportunity to interview. If he has a cancellation (very common later in the season), he may give you a shot. The PC is far less likely to do this. FWIW, the requested interview approach is going to necessitate a much harder sell in the interview. Otherwise, it just ends up the equivalent of a pity date. But yes, later in the season you can often pan the creek for an extra interview or two in this way.
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I'm just wondering if a (relatively) competitive program would waste a "pity" interview on an applicant if they werent considering them as a potential resident. This is especially so if you have no ties to the program. Any opinions on this?
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No. Perhaps if you're rotating there, or more likely if you're a student there, but with no connections I doubt any competitive programs would offer a "pity" interview. It would be a waste of everyone's time and the applicant would still feel bad at the end of the match.
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Thanks for the reply, aPD. Thats really good to know.
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Sorry, but I'm a little confused by your statement (it's a problem on my end, undoubtedly). Are you saying that a) he shouldn't even bother to call since they wouldn't offer an invite or b) if he does call and they do offer an invite, he should not view it as a "pity" invite?
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I don't believe there is such a thing as a pity interview save from your home institution. Why would a program waste their time inviting you if they have 0 intention of ranking you? Sure you may not be at the top of their pre-interview rank list, but I am sure you still have a chance at getting ranked well after the interview. My 2 cents.
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I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. I was trying to say that, IMHO, programs do not offer "pity" interviews -- i.e. we do not invite people whom we have no chance of ranking simply to make them not feel bad. The only exceptions might be:
1. Home program -- I expect some home programs invite most of the students from that school to interview, even if they are unlikely to make the final list.
2. Away rotation -- some programs might interview all away rotators, but many will not.
3. Politics -- if someone is "connected" enough, I guess they might get an interview.
4. MSPE / Late application submission disaster -- many programs start inviting candidates before the MSPE. Rarely, someone who looks fine prior, has a poor MSPE. Since the person is already invitied, programs usually don't tell them not to come. However, in this case, these applicants probably have some chance of getting on the final list, so all is not lost. This is rare, before everyone starts panicking about their interviews they have already booked.....
If you get an interview, then you
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Disagree. Once they have an interview day set up, but have late cancellations, many programs might be willing to fill their open spot on the schedule with someone they didn't initially invite but expressed compelling interest. Programs like to have interviewed as many people as feasible for each slot. If the day is all set up, much ordered, tour guides lined up, a program would often just as soon not have gaps in the schedule. These late addition interviews were very common late in the process at the smaller programs I looked at.
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aPD (and me - the person who asked the question), were talking about competitive programs. And this is regarding interviews that have been given out before November 1st.
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I agree with this. I was simply stating that programs don't offer "pity" interviews -- which I was assuimng was "an interview with NO chance of getting ranked, simply to avoid hurting someone's feelings". In your scenario, late cancellations allow me to pick people off my waitlist. Presumably those people have less chance of being ranksed highly (as they were on the waitlist) but have some chance of being matched.
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Out of curiosity, what is a "poor MSPE"? I know these things are mainly fluff (from my understanding), so what would comprise a poor one? I guess I was just under the impression "bad" dean's letters don't exist. Curious.
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At my school they include the clerkship comments on the MSPE whether they are positive or negative. So if you have a bad experience on a clerkship and get a bad comment (i.e. "The student was always late and seemed unmotivated... blah blah blah"), it would end up on your MSPE, and that would be bad.
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Additionally the MSPE would be were a lot of "outside stuff" aside from grades show up - like if you had an unexplained leave of absence, or a "professionalism" issue (one of our students a couple of years ago got accused of sexual harassment by a nurse, and the dean was obligated to put that into the student's MSPE).
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Ahhh...I gotcha. That all makes sense. I guess I just figured the letter pretty much re-hashed your grades, board scores, and extracurriculars - most of which can be found in your ERAS app.
But I guess the primary things that programs would be looking for in there are real negative comments on rotations and professionalism issues...
But I guess the primary things that programs would be looking for in there are real negative comments on rotations and professionalism issues...
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I think the most important thing on the MSPE is your class ranking. Usually schools have a histogram with labels such as outstanding for the top 20th percentile and so on.
Comments from your clerkship may also be helpful. If you did not include certain things on your ERAS (time off, disciplinary actions... both I believe were on ERAS but don't remember specifically), then you are going to look like a real douche when your MSPE comes out with all that in it... it's rare... but you never know with some people.
For the purposes of this post, I do not think e-mailing programs s/p the MSPE will affect outcome in most situations. The programs have been at this for awhile, and they either like your application or they don't... an e-mail is not going to change that.
We never know what programs are looking for, so you just have to wait. Depending on the specialty, it will be either advanced or mid-season for invites. Remember too that people are going to cancel, so that will open up slots.
Bottom line: Sending an e-mail is likely to have a minimal adverse effect, so it probably would not hurt... and could help... so e-mail if you wish... being your own advocate can sometimes help you break the ice. This is especially true if you really need to be in a certain place/location for reasons like couple match.
Best wishes to all
Comments from your clerkship may also be helpful. If you did not include certain things on your ERAS (time off, disciplinary actions... both I believe were on ERAS but don't remember specifically), then you are going to look like a real douche when your MSPE comes out with all that in it... it's rare... but you never know with some people.
For the purposes of this post, I do not think e-mailing programs s/p the MSPE will affect outcome in most situations. The programs have been at this for awhile, and they either like your application or they don't... an e-mail is not going to change that.
We never know what programs are looking for, so you just have to wait. Depending on the specialty, it will be either advanced or mid-season for invites. Remember too that people are going to cancel, so that will open up slots.
Bottom line: Sending an e-mail is likely to have a minimal adverse effect, so it probably would not hurt... and could help... so e-mail if you wish... being your own advocate can sometimes help you break the ice. This is especially true if you really need to be in a certain place/location for reasons like couple match.
Best wishes to all
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I am surprised to see people talking about emailing a program they didn't hear from until about now. I, for instance, applied to EM, which many people say is known for sending the bulk of invites after the MSPE on Nov 1. That being said, I received about half of my interview offers before Nov 1 and half after. With only about 10 offers, I still have some programs I really would like to interview at.
I am hoping someone (maybe aPD?) can tell me when most programs have mailed the majority of the offers out. I assumed it would be by this week, but I got a few invites this week (last was Thursday) so I don't want to email a program about application status if they are still sending out invites. I have heard that persistence and showing interest like this can show well for an interested application, I am just struggling with when one should assume they are not going to get an invite offer.
Also, do programs tend to continuously send out invites through the season as people cancel?
I am hoping someone (maybe aPD?) can tell me when most programs have mailed the majority of the offers out. I assumed it would be by this week, but I got a few invites this week (last was Thursday) so I don't want to email a program about application status if they are still sending out invites. I have heard that persistence and showing interest like this can show well for an interested application, I am just struggling with when one should assume they are not going to get an invite offer.
Also, do programs tend to continuously send out invites through the season as people cancel?
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Do all the school MSPEs have this? I didn't see mine anywhere. When I asked the secretary about the histogram, she said it would be on my transcript. I didn't ask to see mine, but I probably should. I don't think I'm anywhere near the top 20 percentile, and I would probably fall into that rare category where programs are impressed with my overall app until they get my MSPE
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Do all the school MSPEs have this? I didn't see mine anywhere. When I asked the secretary about the histogram, she said it would be on my transcript. I didn't ask to see mine, but I probably should. I don't think I'm anywhere near the top 20 percentile, and I would probably fall into that rare category where programs are impressed with my overall app until they get my MSPE
Your school might not explicitly state your class rank, but I thought almost all schools relayed, via the MSPE, where each applicant ranks in their class in terms of halves or thirds - this can be done with the appropriate "code word."
Is there a place in your MSPE where it states that based on your academic performance, you will be a _______ candidate for residency? Fill in the blank with very good, excellent, outstanding?
I think a lot of schools (my wife's included) do include the histograms and grade distribution info with the MSPE, but DO NOT let the students see that section when they review it. I can only assume this is because the school "doesn't rank"
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I'm certainly not gonna blow any programs away by my class rank (based only on the first 2 years), so let's hope that's not high on their list of importance when ranking. I received 90% of my invites pre-Dean's Letter.
No fails, or issues, just not top of my class.
No fails, or issues, just not top of my class.
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I think a lot of schools (my wife's included) do include the histograms and grade distribution info with the MSPE, but DO NOT let the students see that section when they review it. I can only assume this is because the school "doesn't rank"
Hmm, sounds like my school. Did you or your wife finally get to see that info? I'm planning on asking for it again, because if programs are getting to see that info and basing their judgments on it, shouldn't I see it as well? Unlike LORs, I don't remember waiving my right to see my class ranking, even if it isn't numerical and just gives a rough idea of where I stand.
OP, I'm really sorry about hijacking your thread, but I hope this info is helpful to everyone
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