Emergency Medicine is Hot

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EM can do Pain as well and have good hours in urgent care if they desire a regular lifestyle. Many of my fellow medical students even question why someone would do a EM residency because many FM, IM, Med/Peds doctors etc can work in the ED especially if you are in the south.

I keep hearing EM can do pain, but the other day I searched a some pain fellowships and almost none had EM as a possible specialty. Are the websites not up to date or is EM able to do pain at only certain fellowships?

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Personally, I would not do ED over anesthesia.

ER = When you are on, you are a busy little bee. Buzzing around the ED manging 5-12 patients (or more) at a time. Lot's of night coverage. Surgeons hate to see any calls from the ED- you have to be "that" guy. You are always looking towards D/C or admitt. Def. some cool stuff that comes in through the door though... and you get plenty of procedures.

Anesthesia = Pretty chill most of the time. Meet a lot of patients. Chit chat with your surgeons and your OR staff. Procudres all day long. Manage the music in the OR. Check some SDN. That's not to say we don't get our crazy days.

Had labor day weekend. Fri-Tues morning. Primary call. Had a period of 40 hours with 4 hours of sleep. A couple of tough cases that required some real thought as to how to proceed... (Difficulat airway with unstable C-spine for ex-lap because of full blowout of large bowel... needless to say, this was an absolute indication for awake fiberoptic). I don't think I'd like that 40 hour stretch if I was 50 y/o. But I'm young. No big deal.
Next day was 2 hearts with a bring back. Arrived at 6:10am...got home at 8pm. We have our moments... but mostly... it's chill.
 
later on in life... you choose the ASC job and ride that wave 'till you go 1/2 time. Then ride that wave until full retirement.

More options.
 
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I think a lot of med students choose EM over anesthesia because of the relatively shorter residency and the potential income afterwards. Attendings over the EM forums generally agree it's not hard to find a job at $200/hr for a new graduate EM physician.
 
I keep hearing EM can do pain, but the other day I searched a some pain fellowships and almost none had EM as a possible specialty. Are the websites not up to date or is EM able to do pain at only certain fellowships?

Most pain fellowships don't realize they can accept any discipline that has a primary board - so you won't see this on websites.

You have to read the fine print, and probably jump through some hoops to get to do it.

And I'm not sure the details - but either the main certifying body gives the certificate, or they have to get one of the main convening authorities to accept (PM&R, psych, neuro, anesth).

If you are interested beyond just curiosity, I will find out more info.
 
I keep hearing EM can do pain, but the other day I searched a some pain fellowships and almost none had EM as a possible specialty. Are the websites not up to date or is EM able to do pain at only certain fellowships?

I know an IR doc that has an ABMS certificate for pain medicine (he did the fellowship and took the exam) just like mine.
 
I know an IR doc that has an ABMS certificate for pain medicine (he did the fellowship and took the exam) just like mine.

I was just curious, thx. I don't plan on pursuing pain - but you never know.

Thanks anyhow.
 
Most pain fellowships don't realize they can accept any discipline that has a primary board - so you won't see this on websites.

You have to read the fine print, and probably jump through some hoops to get to do it.

And I'm not sure the details - but either the main certifying body gives the certificate, or they have to get one of the main convening authorities to accept (PM&R, psych, neuro, anesth).

If you are interested beyond just curiosity, I will find out more info.

For EM, it's ABPMR

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=999205
 
This is so true.

I'm surprised we get anybody into anesthesia at all. It is very boring to watch someone do anesthesia.

It is very fun to do, but way boring to watch.

And quit frankly, it is hard to teach I think. I let an intern have a couple of passes at a spinal recently. I took over only two passes. I should have instructed better, been patient, talked him through it. But for some reason, it is getting harder and harder for me to teach this stuff. I would have thought it should be getting easier for me.

Not to hijack the thread, but one of my favorite quotes from a partner of mine is "Every time I watch a resident attempt an epidural, a part of me dies." Haha....I love that.

Im guessing this is why you have a hard time teaching. Im guessing someone thought the same thing about you when you were learning, but they were obviously able to see through their irritation to teach. It bugs the hell out of me when doctors at any stage of training look at those below them and say "haha, look how stupid/clumsy that guy is, obviously I was NEVER that bad....". Chances are you were that guy, or you were worse than that guy at some point. Get off your horse and think about things from someone else's perspective for a change, it might be enlightening when it comes to your teaching style.
 
Im guessing this is why you have a hard time teaching. Im guessing someone thought the same thing about you when you were learning, but they were obviously able to see through their irritation to teach. It bugs the hell out of me when doctors at any stage of training look at those below them and say "haha, look how stupid/clumsy that guy is, obviously I was NEVER that bad....". Chances are you were that guy, or you were worse than that guy at some point. Get off your horse and think about things from someone else's perspective for a change, it might be enlightening when it comes to your teaching style.

Nice post.:thumbup:
 
Im guessing this is why you have a hard time teaching. Im guessing someone thought the same thing about you when you were learning, but they were obviously able to see through their irritation to teach. It bugs the hell out of me when doctors at any stage of training look at those below them and say "haha, look how stupid/clumsy that guy is, obviously I was NEVER that bad....". Chances are you were that guy, or you were worse than that guy at some point. Get off your horse and think about things from someone else's perspective for a change, it might be enlightening when it comes to your teaching style.

Seriously. There's a lot of wisdom here and it's a good reminder to me as I finish fellowship.
 
Im guessing this is why you have a hard time teaching. Im guessing someone thought the same thing about you when you were learning, but they were obviously able to see through their irritation to teach. It bugs the hell out of me when doctors at any stage of training look at those below them and say "haha, look how stupid/clumsy that guy is, obviously I was NEVER that bad....". Chances are you were that guy, or you were worse than that guy at some point. Get off your horse and think about things from someone else's perspective for a change, it might be enlightening when it comes to your teaching style.

Excellent post. Could use more of this in medicine.
 
You couldn't pay me enough to do EM. The faces of the attendings tell the true story for any specialty.
 
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I am applying to EM for some of the reasons mentioned on this thread, but mostly because I just like it. I am more interested in acute problems than chronic problems. I also like dealing with a wide variety of problems. I get too bored studying the same thing for too long, or doing the same exact thing for too long. I like sick patients, but if every one of my patients was terribly ill, that might be a bit much -- it's nice to throw an abscess or URI in there sometimes. I like procedures, but short ones, and I don't want to do them all damn day. I like working up undifferentiated complaints. I like using the history and physical to narrow down a differential. I like seeing the results of therapy in real time. And it's not always crazy in the ED, we chit-chat too.

So, yes -- salary, hours, lifestyle, etc - those all matter. But it's not why I am choosing EM over anesthesiology. I didn't work this hard for all these years to do something I don't like as much. Anesthesiology goes into more depth than I really like when it comes to pharmacology. Don't get me wrong, I like reading EM articles about relevant pharm, induction agents etc etc, but that aspect of the profession is magnified in anesthesiology. I like to read EKGs, and enjoy studying it, but do I want to study it to the same endpoint as a cardiologist? No. There is nothing about the job of the anesthesiologist in surgery that appeals to me. There is very little about pain medicine that appeals to me.

I've met plenty of older EM docs who are happy. There are miserable attendings in every specialty. I think it's more of a consequence of choosing wisely vs. choosing poorly for your personality and career expectations.
 
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I am applying to EM for some of the reasons mentioned on this thread, but mostly because I just like it. I am more interested in acute problems than chronic problems. I also like dealing with a wide variety of problems. I get too bored studying the same thing for too long, or doing the same exact thing for too long. I like sick patients, but if every one of my patients was terribly ill, that might be a bit much -- it's nice to throw an abscess or URI in there sometimes. I like procedures, but short ones, and I don't want to do them all damn day. I like working up undifferentiated complaints. I like using the history and physical to narrow down a differential. I like seeing the results of therapy in real time. And it's not always crazy in the ED, we chit-chat too.

So, yes -- salary, hours, lifestyle, etc - those all matter. But it's not why I am choosing EM over anesthesiology. I didn't work this hard for all these years to do something I don't like as much. Anesthesiology goes into more depth than I really like when it comes to pharmacology. Don't get me wrong, I like reading EM articles about relevant pharm, induction agents etc etc, but that aspect of the profession is magnified in anesthesiology. I like to read EKGs, and enjoy studying it, but do I want to study it to the same endpoint as a cardiologist? No. There is nothing about the job of the anesthesiologist in surgery that appeals to me. There is very little about pain medicine that appeals to me.

I've met plenty of older EM docs who are happy. There are miserable attendings in every specialty. I think it's more of a consequence of choosing wisely vs. choosing poorly for your personality and career expectations.


I agree with you. Choose wisely based on a 30 year career.
 
I agree with you. Choose wisely based on a 30 year career.

EM still appears to be unique. IM journal did a huge burnout study, EM was #1 by far. Every burnout study I've seen has EM #1. There are unhappy docs in all fields, yes. But EM still has unique challenges which makes it one of the hardest work per hour of any field.

Many of the older EM docs will tell you they have one of the hardest jobs (keeping patients happy for surveys, keeping ceo happy for pt pet hour, avoiding malpractice, sometimes doing this sleep deprived, no autonomy to choose pts , and often unappreciated - the most **** talking I hear is at EM not being able to diagnose whatever or dumb consults). I think it's one of the more difficult jobs in med. They deserve their money.

Doing EM for 30yrs would be tough.
 
I don't see why an EM career has to be a lifetime of hardcore, fast paced inner city shift work.

There doesn't appear to be any reason an EM doc can't semi-retire from the high-acuity gangbanger ER to a cushy, part time, small town ER. I just left the glorified "urgent care clinic" / ER in the little hospital I'm in today, which was staffed by an older EM doc. He sure didn't look very stressed.
 
I don't see why an EM career has to be a lifetime of hardcore, fast paced inner city shift work.

There doesn't appear to be any reason an EM doc can't semi-retire from the high-acuity gangbanger ER to a cushy, part time, small town ER. I just left the glorified "urgent care clinic" / ER in the little hospital I'm in today, which was staffed by an older EM doc. He sure didn't look very stressed.

I am thinking this as well especially with the ED shortage. If it were not for CRNA's Anesthesia would be surgical specialty level competitive.
 
When I read this thread title I bust out laughing. No offense.

I almost did EM, it was my #2 choice for a future career. In the end, I looked around at all of the female doc in EM in their mid fifties and decided I did not want that lifestyle. Sure they are still working shifts, but that includes night shifts . And although there are many very cool procedures, the lack of continuity and confinement to hospitals and/or Urgent care did not appeal to me. I thought I would be ready for something different after about five years. And the middle aged EM docs I saw... well, not so hot. That's what made me laugh.

Could not do EM. We did a rotation through it during intern year. There was a rack where they put all the charts for patients to be seen. You would go grab one, see the patient, come back, and two more charts were there. It was a merry-go-round. All patients had a rough template of tests to order. It was a glorified triage. Making admissions calls and getting consults and getting scorned by surgeons. No thanks.
 
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I also was on the fence with EM when I applied and even did 3 away rotations during 4th year and as Prelim Medicine intern, did 1 month. I envy the job outlook, security and extremely flexible schedule but realized that those shifts, as people have mentioned several times, keep you extremely busy and stressed. I'm physically wiped after each EM shift, not to mention even as an intern I still can't find a work station to sit at. The sporadic day-evening-night shift rotation within the same 1 week period also did me in. I did like the variety though and definitely felt I helped "save" a few patients.
 
Could not do EM. We did a rotation through it during intern year. There was a rack where they put all the charts for patients to be seen. You would go grab one, see the patient, come back, and two more charts were there. It was a merry-go-round. All patients had a rough template of tests to order. It was a glorified triage. Making admissions calls and getting consults and getting scorned by surgeons. No thanks.
That is the beauty of medicine that there are many different specialties suited to many different personalities. I'm not sure you're exactly clear on the concept of triaging, but I am glad you found your specialty. I love that our hospital has 24/7 in-house coverage and I just had a super cool case were neither of us could get the airway from above (glidescope, fiberoptic nasally/orally) so we did a retrograde intubation and saved the patient's neck from being flayed.
 
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That is the beauty of medicine that there are many different specialties suited to many different personalities. I'm not sure you're exactly clear on the concept of triaging, but I am glad you found your specialty. I love that our hospital has 24/7 in-house coverage and I just had a super cool case were neither of us could get the airway from above (glidescope, fiberoptic nasally/orally) so we did a retrograde intubation and saved the patient's neck from being flayed.

I have a decent concept of what triage is. You're right though- different strokes for different folks.
 
That is the beauty of medicine that there are many different specialties suited to many different personalities. I'm not sure you're exactly clear on the concept of triaging, but I am glad you found your specialty. I love that our hospital has 24/7 in-house coverage and I just had a super cool case were neither of us could get the airway from above (glidescope, fiberoptic nasally/orally) so we did a retrograde intubation and saved the patient's neck from being flayed.

This must be the first ever retrograde intubation recorded on SDN. Right on!

More details please!
 
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every attending looked pretty happy at the place i rotated at. the residents look prettyyy busy though. but still they work like half - 2/3 the # of hrs other ppl work and make a killing. during our EM session, they told us EM is pretty much the only field that isn't super competitive yet makes a good amt money and still have time to enjoy that money. honestly i think id rather be busy for 8-12 hrs and be done with it.. than be mediumly busy for 16-20 hrs..

this year at my school 26 ppl went into EM, which is 2nd only to IM. it may also be b/c EM is diong so well as a field in general, there are so many 3 yr residencies now.. after 3 years you come out and make 250k+ working 40 hrs a week.. and there are sooo many jobs, esp with more and more urgent care centers popping up.
 
Plus you have the option of doing a fellowship in CC or pain
 
I really enjoyed my EM rotations (3 months total between 3rd and 4th year). It really helped me learn how to be efficient with H&Ps and to formulate plans quickly, etc etc. I think I probably learned more on my EM rotation than most others just through the sheer number of patients I was exposed to. That being said, I noticed that while I could spend plenty of time with said patients, the docs spent about 10% of the time with them that I was able to spend. That's when I knew it wasn't for me. I just didn't want to be pulled in that many different directions.

I actually thought the "triage" part of it was cool (yeah yeah I know it's not really triage...). "Hmm...this guy has a weird brain thing, call neuro!" "Hmmm...this guy's chemistry is all ****ed up...call IM!" Honestly, it was pretty sweet to punt that stuff and just move on as opposed to IM....

And the drug seekers? I had one attending who was awesome. He'd look the patient right in the eye and say "I'm not giving you narcotics. I'll give you motrin, but you're not getting narcotics." Then he'd smile and walk out of the room. Most seekers just stood up and left at that point. Not even angry.

The place I'm at also has an area for the "family med" type stuff that is staffed by PAs. So the sniffles and stitches go there. So there's very little primary care.

In the end, I decided I didn't want to do it for the next 25 years of my life but I can certainly understand why many people want to....especially where the PAs handle the primary care stuff.
 
EM rotation as intern has been the low-point of the last 5 years for me (med school, internship).

I just can't take any aspect of it. Picking up a chart and seeing yet another 40-year-old female with weakness, dizziness, abdominal pain who's been here 3 times in the last month. The intractable back pain patient who is screaming and sobbing and can't get a word out except for, "They usually start with Dilaudid 2mg then 1mg every hour after that". Atypical chest pain over and over. Nausea and abdominal pain over and over. Sitting in the middle of our ED is like being in a glass bowl where there are 45 different useless alarms going off and every patient staring at you, with family members occasionally wandering up to ask me if they can have a food tray too. Waiting for consultants and primaries to call me back, wondering what I'm going to get yelled at for this time.

It's just incredibly unpleasant. There is no trust or relationship between physician and patient, or physician and consultant. I spend my entire day staring at the clock waiting to go home. I'm barely learning anything; we order the same shotgun labs and films on every with a given chief complaint. I see the chief complaint, put in my orders, then see the patient. Seeing the patient seems to change management a minority of the time. The big conundrum with every patient is not, "What's going on and how do we treat it?" but rather, "How can I get this patient out of the ED as quickly as possible (either to inpatient, obs, or home)?" I take no satisfaction or pleasure in nearly anything I do.

As a med student, I had a pleasant EM rotation. They didn't really care what I did. I just hung around the level 1s, tried to snag lacs and abscesses, etc. Very skewed look at the specialty. If I was unsure of what I wanted to go into at that point, I think the "sizzle" could have sold me on EM. The "steak" is like reheated truckstop meatloaf.
 
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I actually thought the "triage" part of it was cool (yeah yeah I know it's not really triage...). "Hmm...this guy has a weird brain thing, call neuro!" "Hmmm...this guy's chemistry is all ****ed up...call IM!" Honestly, it was pretty sweet to punt that stuff and just move on as opposed to IM....

Believe me, that's not fun. Half the time the consultants are jerks. For me, one of the best parts of medicine is being the expert on a problem, formulating a plan, seeing it through to its conclusion, and seeing the patient do well. Whether that's the internist managing ADHF, the anesthesiologist executing a beautiful anesthetic, or the surgeon getting a patient through an operation and recovery, it's tremendously satisfying when it goes well. You don't really get that as a med student, so many specialties feel the same. There's some aspect of personal investment, but not to the degree of the physician. Figuring out who else gets to make the patient feel better is not terribly satisfying.

And the drug seekers? I had one attending who was awesome. He'd look the patient right in the eye and say "I'm not giving you narcotics. I'll give you motrin, but you're not getting narcotics." Then he'd smile and walk out of the room. Most seekers just stood up and left at that point. Not even angry.

Then they go to another ED and score, like my patient did yesterday. She told me she was going to use the cab voucher I gave her to go to the hospital down the street.

Also, he doesn't think that's awesome. Dealing with people who are lying and manipulating you for drugs is not awesome. It sucks.

The place I'm at also has an area for the "family med" type stuff that is staffed by PAs. So the sniffles and stitches go there. So there's very little primary care.

If the patient complains enough in triage or has any prior medical history, the family med stuff can get bumped from a level 4 or 5 to a level 2 or 3 pretty quick. There's plenty of primary care in EM. It's just not real primary care, because you've never met the patient, have no idea what medical problems they have, they don't know what medications they're on, and they'll never see you again.
 
Believe me, that's not fun. Half the time the consultants are jerks. For me, one of the best parts of medicine is being the expert on a problem, formulating a plan, seeing it through to its conclusion, and seeing the patient do well. Whether that's the internist managing ADHF, the anesthesiologist executing a beautiful anesthetic, or the surgeon getting a patient through an operation and recovery, it's tremendously satisfying when it goes well. You don't really get that as a med student, so many specialties feel the same. There's some aspect of personal investment, but not to the degree of the physician. Figuring out who else gets to make the patient feel better is not terribly satisfying.



Then they go to another ED and score, like my patient did yesterday. She told me she was going to use the cab voucher I gave her to go to the hospital down the street.

Also, he doesn't think that's awesome. Dealing with people who are lying and manipulating you for drugs is not awesome. It sucks.



If the patient complains enough in triage or has any prior medical history, the family med stuff can get bumped from a level 4 or 5 to a level 2 or 3 pretty quick. There's plenty of primary care in EM. It's just not real primary care, because you've never met the patient, have no idea what medical problems they have, they don't know what medications they're on, and they'll never see you again.
I think you missed the point of my post.

It was fun as a student. Had its positives.

In the end, didn't want to do it.

Apparently you didn't enjoy it at all. That's fine.
 
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