Entrance Exam?

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R Sterling

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I received an invite to sit for a three and a half hours long exam to qualify for an interview at Brookdale or Jamaica Hospital in New York for their psych program. Anyone know if it's actually worth it? How many people do they invite for this thing? Are these programs worth all of this trouble or are they actually crappy programs with nothing better to do?

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yeah i got this exam invite today as well and was perplexed. i didn't have my heart set on these programs and am wondering what their intent is on having us jump through this needless hoop. any insight?
 
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I don't think I'm going to attend. I might fail the exam anyway, and that gets me no where.
 
I had no idea that some sites require an entrance exam. Do only certain applicants have to take it (FMGs, etc)? Or is this a trend that's spreading?

What on Earth do they think they need to cover with a 3.5 hr exam that hasn't already been addressed by step 1, 2, cs, and 4 years of medical school??
 
Agree.

I know of 4 programs that have entrance exams. Two because I had to take them on the interview day. Two I've heard from several make their applicants take it. Only one of those programs it seemed to make any difference because most of the questions were based on the behavioral sciences and not on material taught in medical school.

It made a difference IMHO because if someone did very well on that exam, it would show to the PD that this applicant truly has a good grasp of the behavioral sciences. That difference still IMHO is not one that'd be on my radar if I were the PD because so many medstudents are interested in becoming psychiatrists but aren't taught these things. (E.g. The Harlow wire cage monkey experiments).

I'm not sure why these programs chose to do what they do and in fact I think if anything they might be detracting some people away with these exams.
 
Jamaica has 3 positions and traditionally they take 2 Externs for their PGY-1 position and only 1 position goes for outside applicants. Same with Brookdale too. Last year there were 400 candidates came for the entrance exam and only 1 got selected for the PG-1 position.:confused:
 
Geez, which places have this practice? It's not that I'm afraid to take a test, but it seems really distasteful for places to do that (unless it's the Ivy League, I suppose).
 
Having a separate test is definitely not a trend. This is a low tier community program with 100% IMGs.

Still, they expect you to fly to NY, take a test, and fly back a few weeks later for an interview? And after all that time and money, there is only going to be 1 real spot given out? That's kind of shady... they are taking advantage of all the desperate IMGs out there who know that .25% chance of matching is > 0%.

Good luck to anyone who goes.
 
What rubbish!

How much psychiatry can one be expected to know before residency? Can't the program just look at the applicant's shelf exam score? How many more exams can they fit into 4 years?? I suppose these are rhetorical questions as I cannot think of answers that would be satisfactory!

Good luck to all those applying
 
I think the reason this happens is because there is a perception among IMGs that psych is the easiest specialty to match into and therefore it is extremely common for IMGs to apply to psych as a backup or last resort even if it's not what they really are interested in. I am guessing the programs do this because they are trying to determine if the IMGs have a sincere interest in psych.
I've also heard of programs with a lot of IMG applicants requiring a phone interview first to judge the person's English skills before offering an interview.
These kinds of pre-interview tests are definitely the exception though.
 
I know a program in Ohio (whopper country and maybe where he took his exam) that does this. Their reason is exactly the one mentioned by peppy and they believe that they probably lose a few good candidates but that they defintely weed out some really bad ones that they used to get.

I would do it if my program attracted lower tier candidates. Its better to get a slightly poorer quality candidate who is interested in psychiatry than one with great USMLE scores and poor people skills who really wanted to do radiology and read studies in the dungeon all day.
 
Hmm, I don't know of any in Ohio, though it's not like I know every program in Ohio.

In my residency program, the PD pretty much tossed out any application where the person did not mention any strong motivating factor to be a psychiatrist.

And yes, there is some type of movement among IMGs to go into psychiatry. Why I don't know. Psychiatry is perhaps the one field where fluency is more important than the other fields. There are also several other things that are culture specific. There is a perception that it's easier to get into psychiatry, but in the last few years, this trend is not so true.

As for those two programs that did test me during my interviews, at least back then, I considered them low rate programs. I interviewed at those two places only because of their location. One of them was close to where my then girlfriend, now wife lived. We hoped it could be a place where I could go and not have a long-distance relationship. If you've been on the boards for awhile, that was the same program where an attending there intentionally did a stress interview on me, trying to upset me, and throwing insults. I wrote the program off my list in my mind but only decided to go through the rest of the interview because I already spent the time and money on the trip and I figured it could prep my for my future interviews. That same attending was later accused of assaulting a resident, and all the residents I knew at that program told me this guy had severe anger management problems.

The other was in a similar situation. I have heard from a good friend at that program that I was right not to go there. She described the program as malignant, violating ACGME rules and highly ethnically insensitive. The overwhelming majority of people in that program were from another country and ran that program as if it were in that country---including not following ACGME rules.

But all of this was years ago and things change.
 
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Wow.

Never heard of that kind of thing.

I have heard of stress tests. Like the telephone test...tell the candidate you are expecting a very important phone call and leave the room for a minute. Then call the room and see if the candidate answers. Both answering and not answering are considered 'wrong' and so you see how the candidate responds.

I have never seen it happen but have heard of it being done by analysts.
 
Unless that attending knew for a fact that a candidate had no other interviews, he's just shooting his program's foot by giving a stress interview. I had plenty of interviews. I had a few pre-match offers and several programs I wanted to enter told me they were seriously considering taking me. Two of which I knew were good, not just comments told to every applicant because I had inside information from the residents.

What applicant is going to want to go to a program after they've given him a stress interview? Only one with limited options, someone into sado-masochism, or someone thinking that program has something worth tolerating that type of emotional abuse.

So I was in a position where I could've blew him off and literally just walked out of the interview while giving some one-liner. I didn't at that time because I didn't know the politics of the situation and what little power he really had over me and that guy literally had a local reputation for being out of order on several things.

He was old-school. That type of attending is dying out with the new ACGME regulations. In fact, I was told something to the effect that he assaulted several residents in the past. The attending was finally removed from a teaching position after a resident formally pressed charges against him. The hospital allegedly actually did something during the last incident because the then new ACGME regulations gave that resident enough protection to actually be able to press his complaint. That was not possible before.
 
An analyst guy at the VA, he was someone in power, used to ask a lot of inappropriate questions to applicants. Particularly women, minorities, IMGs and D.O.s. Well one applicant, a female minority (with good credentials) who was pregnant was apparently made aware in advance and she recorded him.

She then sent it to our chair and our GME office with a statement that she was considering a lawsuit. I never saw him again. He wasn't a physician so if he got demoted it meant a huge loss of income for him.

She never came to our program.
 
An analyst guy at the VA, he was someone in power, used to ask a lot of inappropriate questions to applicants. Particularly women, minorities, IMGs and D.O.s. Well one applicant, a female minority (with good credentials) who was pregnant was apparently made aware in advance and she recorded him.

She then sent it to our chair and our GME office with a statement that she was considering a lawsuit. I never saw him again. He wasn't a physician so if he got demoted it meant a huge loss of income for him.

She never came to our program.

Is it even legal to record interviews? I was actually thinking about doing it to help me better prepare for the interviews to follow, but not if it's illegal. I figured it might give me good insight into "how I sound" or respond to things.
 
The laws concerning recording conversations between people and using it against them vary per state and often work on varying degrees. E.g. if one is made known that they are being taped, then the recording could be used against them. If not, then it can't. In some states it's considered illegal to tape someone against their will.

http://www.rcfp.org/taping/

But the above is considered for legal purposes. A program could, for example, on it's own decide to get rid of a person based on the material of a recording. A program, remember, is not the government. If I ran a private practice and I found saw a tape where my therapist colleague was having sex with one of his clients and the tape was taken without his permission, I'd still strongly consider firing him Why not? I'm not the state government. A lot of the laws as to what can be used in recordings are for Courts, not for private individuals.

As for programs where interviewers do some strange if not out of order things, I'm never surprised when I hear them, though I also believe these are going to be less with ACGME protections. When I was in college, my friends applying into medical school and even some professors who interviewed applicants told me of inappropriate things happening in far more frequency and intensity and that is not surprising. When someone is in a position where they have 1000 candidates for a spot vs 5 for a spot, it gives the interviewer much more power and the applicant is put in more of a position where they have to take the abuse if they want the reward. It's not right, it's not professional, but it happens.
 
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Haven't you read about patients recording us?

Look out for that iphone next time. There is a reason the patient keeps it pointed towards you.
 
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