Exporting Healthcare

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toughlife

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Being recognized as the foremost authority in medical care the united states has something that other nations look up to and respect...health care. It is no surprise that citizens of other nations come here to be treated. With that in mind, I wondered if any of you are aware that some US hospitals have started to open branches throughout the world to export its medical expertise.

Here's one example I know of.

http://www.clevelandcliniccanada.com/ccc/index.html

http://cms.clevelandclinic.org/body.cfm?id=666
http://cms.clevelandclinic.org/body.cfm?id=227&action=detail&ref=473

"In September 2006, the Clinic announced plans to build and operate a world-class specialty hospital in Abu Dhabi, UAE. This facility is scheduled to open in 2010.The current CEO and President of the Clinic, Delos M. "Toby" Cosgrove, M.D., recently indicated plans to expand into other markets abroad including Austria and Singapore."



Would any of you ever consider working as a physician abroad?

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yes absolutely. america and americans have become very frusterating to me. if I wanted to live in a socialist country I would move to one.
 
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yes absolutely. america and americans have become very frusterating to me. if I wanted to live in a socialist country I would move to one.


Not sure whether you are putting down the idea or embracing it.
 
I was suggesting that if I wanted to live in a socialist country I would have moved to one. I am frusterated that some liberals (really thinly veiled socialists) are trying to turn the country that I loved into a socialist state. Free market capitalism breeds and rewards competition and striving for success....socialism breeds and rewards mediocrity. Doesn't anyone remember that the USSR crumbled (I know it was communism but very similar).
Being a socialist super power doesn't work...socialism, if it works at all only works in a microcosm like sweden with a tiny homogenous population...not the USA. It will eventually fail here too if they get the chance. Besides the people that the left panders too and so often wants to elevate, cut taxes for, enroll in social programs, etc. are all too often NOT the working class, hard working proletariat (sp?) that Marx went on and on about....too often they are the dregs of society, never worked, living off our tax dollars....trust me I have met them in a public health clinics I am working at the past months in the county that has one of the the highest percentage of HIV + people if not the highest.... (endless stories if anyone is interested)
ok sorry for the thread jack (but you kind of asked) and please don't flame me for my political views, I am admittedly a heartless libertarian(/objectivist). If you feel different agree to disagree I don't want to thread jack anymore than I already have....
 
No one is going to flame you for being "frusterated", amyl (too cute :) ). The point is that we, as a group of physicians, are not empowered by our government to be part of healthcare change. We are regarded as imminently self-interested, and felt to hold way too much power over our patients already. So, we are prevented from doing such things as forming unions and collectively bargaining.

What we need to do immediately to fix the healthcare crises in this country is fairly simple, painful but simple:

1) We need to do away with the current EMTALA regulations as they are currently envisioned. This was a (relatively) good idea at its inception that has been subsequently abused. It essentially handcuffs hospital administrators into treating patients who present to ERs regardless as to whether or not they are actually having an emergency. They (generally) don't pay. They (generally) don't follow-up in their treatment. They (generally) tend to present back to the emergency room for additional care. The system currently encourages this type of behavior in an select population of patients for whom healthcare is seen as a "last resort" option from a culmination of their bad personal behaviors. We have to put an end to this free ride.

2) Mandatory healthcare coverage (i.e. insurance) or no service rule. Patients should be required to pay a "retainer" up front before services are rendered. They should be required to carry independent healthcare insurance (not provided by an employer) and the government should incentivise people, with tax-breaks (etc.), to carry such insurance. Like car insurance, people should individually purchase this coverage. It should not be provided as a perk by an employer. The main advantages to such a change are two-fold. First, it will breed competition among insurance providers to provide the best possible coverage at the lowest dollar amount while stratifying risk at the individual level. Second, it will provide portability to the insured. When a patient leaves a job or their employer decides to shop for a new healthplan to cut costs, they won't have to pick-up a new plan with "pre-existing diseases" exemptions as well as start the painful shopping for new doctors and clinics to get their care. This would be a more patient-friendly system and provide better continuity of care.

3) Mandatory health screening. In order to keep your policy, you would have to see a primary care provider at least once a year for a health check-up. This is already a feature of most plans, but people rarely take advantage of it. If we're going to be serious about preventive medicine, such a policy has to have some teeth.

4) Universal catastrophic coverage in lieu of medicare/medicaid. In order to keep costs down, there should be a system that mandates government payment only for catastrophic coverage - and everyone would get it. This would serve to supplement your private policy, not replace it, and would apply to everyone. You would still be responsible for a portion of whatever bill was generated by the hospital up to a ceiling amount, but you would get coverage for major unexpected and unplanned medical expense.

5) Governmental oversite of prescription cost. The cost of pharmaceuticals would be regulated at the national level, much like in Canada, and the overall price of a medication would be fixed at a national level. There would be no negotiating with individual health plans or large retail chains. This would also serve to bring back the mom-and-pop pharmacies and a more personal relationship with individual pharmacists that we used to enjoy before the WalMarts and KMarts and Targets started bullying the system. This would also ensure a uniform and fair price for everyone. The downside of this, though, is that it would tend to engender a "national formulary" type of system, and some physician choice of pharmaceutical would be limited. A small price to pay, in my estimation.

6) Capitation of monetary reward allowed to individuals and plaintiff's attorneys from malpractice lawsuits. Currently, in some instances plaintiff's attorneys can get 33-40% of the jury reward from a verdict in a case. This is the "bonanza" and "spaghetti" theory of our jurisprudence system combined. Plaintiff's attorneys search for cases that will yield a high jury award (we've all seen the ambulance-chasing TV adds), and they will often throw any case against a wall (nuisance suits) to see what sticks. In some instances, attorneys make millions themselves off of the jury award, which also takes money away from the person who supposedly suffered the injury. This system can be "disincentivized" by allowing them to first recoup only their costs in preparing the case and exhibits, as well as a small percentage of the jury award up to a capped amount (say $100K maximum) per case.

7) Allowing collective bargaining and more privatization of healthcare by doctors and doctor's groups. This would be in the form of specialty hospitals set-up specifically to provide focused, specialty care (such as outpatient orthopedic surgical centers) to treat specific conditions. Big hospital administrators don't like this because it takes away the lucrative patients from them, but tough ****. If they got more efficient at treating patients in their own hospital, this wouldn't be a problem. Likewise, the whole scheme of "paying on the DRG" needs a huge enema itself. This breeds record falsification and drumming up ICD-9 codes to get more money. Likewise, fixing such a system would even the playing field. For example, if that orthopedic patient subsequently has to get transferred to the hospital for an unexpected complication, the surgeon has to split the bill with the hospital. You can't eat your cake and expect to still have it as well.

8) Do away with JCAHO and other "supervisory" outside agencies that only show-up to meddle in the affairs of the hospital, which puts on a smiley face for a week or so, and does not really do anything to effect change at an institutional level. All they do is hand out more policy and bureacracy, make or day-to-day jobs harder to do, limit our ability to deliver timely and effective care, and add overall cost to an already burdened system. What you do instead is give the patient (and/or their family) a handbill of quality measures at the beginning of their hospitalization and ask them to complete it at the end of their hospitalization. The grade needs to come from the patient, not some pencil-pushing, knee-jerk bureaucrat who sits behind a desk most of the day and only goes to the hospital to "check things out" after it's put on its pretty face. This is more effective than anything JCAHO can mandate, trust me.

Long story short, the current problem we're in has taken YEARS to get this way, and it is the result of a lot of short term fixes at times of crises (starting in 1964 with Johnson's now-entrenched social reform changes) that have resulted in long-term bureaucracy. The changes I suggest are revolutionary, broad, painful, and sweeping. But, they would start to serve to re-invigorate healthcare by not only stimulating competition, but also leveling the playing field and putting some things back in check that have long been out of whack.

-copro
 
Copro, great ideas. I agree.

I also think that sweeping changes WILL be made given what I believe is an impending economic crisis in the U.S. and even globally. So, like it or not, major change is coming. I hate to keep being such a "buzz kill"...lol
 
Being recognized as the foremost authority in medical care the united states has something that other nations look up to and respect...health care. It is no surprise that citizens of other nations come here to be treated. With that in mind, I wondered if any of you are aware that some US hospitals have started to open branches throughout the world to export its medical expertise.

Here's one example I know of.

http://www.clevelandcliniccanada.com/ccc/index.html

http://cms.clevelandclinic.org/body.cfm?id=666
http://cms.clevelandclinic.org/body.cfm?id=227&action=detail&ref=473

"In September 2006, the Clinic announced plans to build and operate a world-class specialty hospital in Abu Dhabi, UAE. This facility is scheduled to open in 2010.The current CEO and President of the Clinic, Delos M. "Toby" Cosgrove, M.D., recently indicated plans to expand into other markets abroad including Austria and Singapore."



Would any of you ever consider working as a physician abroad?

I think this is a great idea. We're also exporting U.S. higher education with many universities setting up shop abroad with satellite campuses. What is less clear is how the average American will benefit from this, unless these facilities are majorily staffed by Americans which seems unlikely. It's one thing to export intellectual capital and another to export U.S. made capital goods.

On the other hand, if such expansions become successful, perhaps the profits will be brought back home to increase spending on infrastructure, technology, and research. That would be great.

I guess, one correlation is like when IBM or one of our big I-banks sets up offices abroad. Generally, they are staffed by local talent, albeit with an American presence. But, it does bode well for the mother ship back home when those ventures are profitable.

Overall, this is a great trend, I think.

Interestingly, we just finished our Connective Tissue unit. We had a clinic day, and a very well known orthopaedic surgeon (in the area) was chatting with us about various surgical techniques. He mentioned how some Americans are going on surgical "vacations" to places like India and saving lots of money (I'm assuming for elective procedures). But, he mentioned how more than likely, they are getting decades old joint replacement technology. Stuff that will work, but is not cutting edge and that does have disadvantages from modern techniques and hardware.

I guess this just sheds some light on how, in a global economy, the medical profession is becoming less insulated from market forces. As well as how "selling" the value that U.S. medical technology offers people. Joe Schmoe isn't reading the NEJM or the various evidence-based professional journals.
 
Some good thoughts, but regulating pharma costs? BAD IDEA. You never want the government stepping into a private market like that.

Personal responsibility and physician autonomy will go a long way in reducing healthcare costs. Even now, a fam prac guy cannot provide free healthcare/reduced costs to individuals if he takes medicare: It would be a violation of his contract with medicare. Disgusting.

No one is going to flame you for being "frusterated", amyl (too cute :) ). The point is that we, as a group of physicians, are not empowered by our government to be part of healthcare change. We are regarded as imminently self-interested, and felt to hold way too much power over our patients already. So, we are prevented from doing such things as forming unions and collectively bargaining.

What we need to do immediately to fix the healthcare crises in this country is fairly simple, painful but simple:

1) We need to do away with the current EMTALA regulations as they are currently envisioned. This was a (relatively) good idea at its inception that has been subsequently abused. It essentially handcuffs hospital administrators into treating patients who present to ERs regardless as to whether or not they are actually having an emergency. They (generally) don't pay. They (generally) don't follow-up in their treatment. They (generally) tend to present back to the emergency room for additional care. The system currently encourages this type of behavior in an select population of patients for whom healthcare is seen as a "last resort" option from a culmination of their bad personal behaviors. We have to put an end to this free ride.

2) Mandatory healthcare coverage (i.e. insurance) or no service rule. Patients should be required to pay a "retainer" up front before services are rendered. They should be required to carry independent healthcare insurance (not provided by an employer) and the government should incentivise people, with tax-breaks (etc.), to carry such insurance. Like car insurance, people should individually purchase this coverage. It should not be provided as a perk by an employer. The main advantages to such a change are two-fold. First, it will breed competition among insurance providers to provide the best possible coverage at the lowest dollar amount while stratifying risk at the individual level. Second, it will provide portability to the insured. When a patient leaves a job or their employer decides to shop for a new healthplan to cut costs, they won't have to pick-up a new plan with "pre-existing diseases" exemptions as well as start the painful shopping for new doctors and clinics to get their care. This would be a more patient-friendly system and provide better continuity of care.

3) Mandatory health screening. In order to keep your policy, you would have to see a primary care provider at least once a year for a health check-up. This is already a feature of most plans, but people rarely take advantage of it. If we're going to be serious about preventive medicine, such a policy has to have some teeth.

4) Universal catastrophic coverage in lieu of medicare/medicaid. In order to keep costs down, there should be a system that mandates government payment only for catastrophic coverage - and everyone would get it. This would serve to supplement your private policy, not replace it, and would apply to everyone. You would still be responsible for a portion of whatever bill was generated by the hospital up to a ceiling amount, but you would get coverage for major unexpected and unplanned medical expense.

5) Governmental oversite of prescription cost. The cost of pharmaceuticals would be regulated at the national level, much like in Canada, and the overall price of a medication would be fixed at a national level. There would be no negotiating with individual health plans or large retail chains. This would also serve to bring back the mom-and-pop pharmacies and a more personal relationship with individual pharmacists that we used to enjoy before the WalMarts and KMarts and Targets started bullying the system. This would also ensure a uniform and fair price for everyone. The downside of this, though, is that it would tend to engender a "national formulary" type of system, and some physician choice of pharmaceutical would be limited. A small price to pay, in my estimation.

6) Capitation of monetary reward allowed to individuals and plaintiff's attorneys from malpractice lawsuits. Currently, in some instances plaintiff's attorneys can get 33-40% of the jury reward from a verdict in a case. This is the "bonanza" and "spaghetti" theory of our jurisprudence system combined. Plaintiff's attorneys search for cases that will yield a high jury award (we've all seen the ambulance-chasing TV adds), and they will often throw any case against a wall (nuisance suits) to see what sticks. In some instances, attorneys make millions themselves off of the jury award, which also takes money away from the person who supposedly suffered the injury. This system can be "disincentivized" by allowing them to first recoup only their costs in preparing the case and exhibits, as well as a small percentage of the jury award up to a capped amount (say $100K maximum) per case.

7) Allowing collective bargaining and more privatization of healthcare by doctors and doctor's groups. This would be in the form of specialty hospitals set-up specifically to provide focused, specialty care (such as outpatient orthopedic surgical centers) to treat specific conditions. Big hospital administrators don't like this because it takes away the lucrative patients from them, but tough ****. If they got more efficient at treating patients in their own hospital, this wouldn't be a problem. Likewise, the whole scheme of "paying on the DRG" needs a huge enema itself. This breeds record falsification and drumming up ICD-9 codes to get more money. Likewise, fixing such a system would even the playing field. For example, if that orthopedic patient subsequently has to get transferred to the hospital for an unexpected complication, the surgeon has to split the bill with the hospital. You can't eat your cake and expect to still have it as well.

8) Do away with JCAHO and other "supervisory" outside agencies that only show-up to meddle in the affairs of the hospital, which puts on a smiley face for a week or so, and does not really do anything to effect change at an institutional level. All they do is hand out more policy and bureacracy, make or day-to-day jobs harder to do, limit our ability to deliver timely and effective care, and add overall cost to an already burdened system. What you do instead is give the patient (and/or their family) a handbill of quality measures at the beginning of their hospitalization and ask them to complete it at the end of their hospitalization. The grade needs to come from the patient, not some pencil-pushing, knee-jerk bureaucrat who sits behind a desk most of the day and only goes to the hospital to "check things out" after it's put on its pretty face. This is more effective than anything JCAHO can mandate, trust me.

Long story short, the current problem we're in has taken YEARS to get this way, and it is the result of a lot of short term fixes at times of crises (starting in 1964 with Johnson's now-entrenched social reform changes) that have resulted in long-term bureaucracy. The changes I suggest are revolutionary, broad, painful, and sweeping. But, they would start to serve to re-invigorate healthcare by not only stimulating competition, but also leveling the playing field and putting some things back in check that have long been out of whack.

-copro
 
Some good thoughts, but regulating pharma costs? BAD IDEA. You never want the government stepping into a private market like that.

You're going to have to explain to me exactly why that's a bad idea. It happens in every other country in the world, except the U.S. Guess which country has the highest prescription medication costs? Guess what else? Big pharma is and will still make huge profits. The difference in my plan is that instead of negotiating with retailers, companies will negotiate with the government. You can still make excellent money doing it this way, as Western Europe is a prime example. It will also serve to dissuade companies from developing and marketing "me too" drugs in lieu of more lucrative, novel therapies.

-copro
 
You're going to have to explain to me exactly why that's a bad idea. It happens in every other country in the world, except the U.S. Guess which country has the highest prescription medication costs? Guess what else? Big pharma is and will still make huge profits. The difference in my plan is that instead of negotiating with retailers, companies will negotiate with the government. You can still make excellent money doing it this way, as Western Europe is a prime example. It will also serve to dissuade companies from developing and marketing "me too" drugs in lieu of more lucrative, novel therapies.

-copro

By principle, the government intervening in a private industry, thus creating larger bureaucracy, and in the process, overstepping it's constitutional bounds, is a bad idea.

Pharma drugs here cost alot of money, more than anywhere else: Guess what? We produce more than anywhere else, and we also lead the way in R and D which fails most of the time. These guys have to recoup their money.
 
I agree with ridding emtala. my home hospital found a way around this as the ER was bankrupting the rest of the hospital. they started a QMP program where by the triage nurse would guess that it wasn't a really emergency. they were marked as QMP...the ER doctor would briefly go talk to the patient and determine if it was an emergency or not. if not, the patient would have to pay their co-pay if they had insurance (which was the vast minority) or pay $275 up front to be treated. The ER docs were erring on the side of caution and some non-emergencies did get treated anyways but it cut down dramatically on the local population using the ER as their own personal urgent care clinic for sore throats, ear infections, percocet-seeking back pain. amazing how some patients need their percocet...until they find out it costs $275.

2, 3, 4 - great ideas, probably never happen though :(.
the rest...i am pretty much against government regulation of anything (like i said, true libertarian/objectivist). I think opening up the business of health care to free market capitalism will sort the rest out well enough. I have faith in free market competition leveling the playing field and sorting out the details.

And I don't think that a doctor should ever have to see a patient that cannot/will not pay their bill.

know what the number one thing that increased life expectancy and reduced mortality and morbidity in this country -- the number one benefit to public health? not better trained doctors, not penicillin, not agressive vaccination programs or free mammograms...
it was sanitation.... indoor plumbing and carting the garbage away. last time i checked plumbers don't work for free and if you don't pay the garbage company the stuff will pile up. why should we work for free if NO ONE else does...?
 
By principle, the government intervening in a private industry, thus creating larger bureaucracy, and in the process, overstepping it's constitutional bounds, is a bad idea.

No, no, no. You misunderstand my overall plan. Private insurance would still be in place. They would still pay the charges to the hospital (for what's covered) and to the pharmacies. They just would be paying a "level-playing field" price, which would not benefit those with greater negotiating power versus the little guy who has none. It would require insurance companies to be nimble and competitive, rather than the "I'm going to deny everything while I rack-up profit" monsters they've become. Heck, I'd even love all insurers to become not-for-profit (like BC/BS).

Pharma drugs here cost alot of money, more than anywhere else: Guess what? We produce more than anywhere else, and we also lead the way in R and D which fails most of the time. These guys have to recoup their money.

Your statement (a) makes no sense, and (b) is not true.

It makes no sense because it doesn't matter how much we produce; it's how much we consume. And, we may be (arguably) be the biggest consumer of pharmaceuticals in the world, but we are not the biggest producers... which brings me to point (b). Only 21 of the top 50 pharma companies in the world are U.S. companies. Of the top 10, U.S. companies account for less than half of the total pharmaceutical revenue ($175B outside U.S. vs. $167B U.S.).

For the reasons I already stated, have a standard price is more fair all the way around and it will incentivize companies to develop novel compounds in lieu of "me too" drugs. Any "me too" drug would not get a favorable price status compared to existing drugs, and would not be lucrative for a company to attempt to market with purportedly minimal advantage over already on-the-market compounds.

The only downside would be the tendency for some to want to develop a "national formulary". But, so long as the government only regulated the price (which the company could clearly undersell if they wanted to), this would be unlikely to happen. What would be more likely to happen - and what already happens - is that you would have a formulary at the INSTITUTION and INSURER end, and would have to pay the set price.

It's interesting what happens now, and many people don't know how it works. There is an "average wholesale price" for a pharmaceutical. This is based upon what the company believes the market will bear. There is often no real check or balance on this amount, and if the company thinks they can get $4 pill (even if it only costs a $0.25-0.30 to produce it), that's what they'll ask. Next, WalMart or KMart says, "we ain't going to pay $4.00 a pill to stock that on our shelves... you charge us $2.95 a pill and we'll stock it." It's coercion. Oh, KMart is still going to charge you $5.50 a pill and will get reimbursed for whatever the insurance company will pay for that pill. But, if you don't have insurance, guess what? You pay full retail price of that medication. That's right, $5.50 per pill! The rest is pure profit passed along from the retailer... and the little mom-and-pop gets squeezed outta the game because they don't have the power to negotiate a lower wholesale price with the manufacturer.

It's a friggin' racket. There is still plenty of profit to be made by the pharmaceutical companies. Believe me, they still make plenty of money in those countries where the government sets the price. The see the U.S. system as a pure racket. The intended wholesale price is basically "made up" by the manufacturer, and it starts high because they know they're going to have to negotiate with the big bully chains and distributors. You take that out of the equation by setting a fair price at the governmental level, and that whole racket ends.

You gotta ask yourself why we are the only country in the world that allows such as system? Funds new research? Pish. Companies are spending the bulk of their money on marketing, not research. So, don't believe that fallacy.

-copro
 
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