Forensic path question...

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The Fideal

Morbid Anatomist
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I'm a 4th yr student now. I have to apply for residency sooner than I'd like to think about. I eventually want to go on to be a medical examiner. Now here's my question... Should I go for a combined Path residency, or just an Anatomical Path one? I was told that for Forensics, the AP one is best. Is it worth it to take the extra year for a combined one? The extra yr could be put to good use since I'm a DO student and may be doing a rotating internship year in addition to a Path res, and I'll be capping it off with a fellowship...

Thanks!

p.s.- Any advice on good residency programs in the NY area would be greatly appreciated as well!

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If you're dead set, so to speak, on forensics then there is no need to do a combined program. The comparison would look something like this:

1 rotating intern year + 3 year AP only + 1 year forensic fellowship = forensic pathologist in 5 years.

vs.

1 rotating intern year + 4 years AP/CP + 1 year forensic fellowship = forensic pathologist in 6 years with CP training that you will never, ever use.

The only benefit to a combined program would be if you change your mind in the midst of things and go for private practice.
 
You would learn some things in CP that are relevant to forensics, like toxicology, hematology, etc, but in truth you can just do an independent study elective and learn it anyway.
 
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Actually, everything you really need to know in forensics you learned in kindergarten. So if I were you I'd just walk into the nearest ME's office, step up to the first body you come to, and demand a scalpel.
 
Havarti666 said:
Actually, everything you really need to know in forensics you learned in kindergarten. So if I were you I'd just walk into the nearest ME's office, step up to the first body you come to, and demand a scalpel.

Hm.. That does eliminate alot of the paperwork...
 
Forensics has almost NOTHING to do with path residency training. I tell people this time and time again. Often relying completely on gross examination, microscopy is very limited in FP. The type of toxicology in FP is also totally different than the CP variant.
 
Yeah - it's almost like it should be its own residency. I guess med school is pretty relevant since the disease processes and everything are obviously important to know, but at the same time during a normal path residency, you will do your autopsy rotations but everything else has almost nothing to do with forensics except the microscopy, most of which is irrelevant to forensics.
 
There's basically two broad philosophies in FP (my designations, admitedly over-simplified):

1. Classic: The approach here is largely grounded in criminalistics and the forensic pathologist's/coroner's task is to investigate suspicious deaths to gather evidence for law enforcement agencies. Here the FP/C functions primarily like a detective and the most important part of thier training has to do with that and not with medicine. Sometimes, with coroners, these people come from law enforcement backgrounds and move into forensics by dint of interest and taking some night courses in anatomy, ect. The "interesting cases" these guys talk about at the water cooler are the bizzare accidents and weird/extreme homicides. The maxim here is that to be a good FP/C you need to be a good criminalist. So medical training is not that important.

2. Nuevo (or Accademic): The approach here is grounded in medicine and the FP's (these guys eschew coroners) task is to perform a medical assessment to determine cause and manner of death. This assessment deliberately and circumspectly goes beyond the immediate medical situation to incorporate broader elements of the circumstances in which a death occured. Here the FP functions like a physician who has specialized in pathology and subspecialized in forensic pathology. Their primary task is to arrive at a diagnosis. The "interesting cases" these guys talk about are the unique undiagnosed medical conditions which initially presented as sudden death. The maxim here is that to be a good forensic pathologist you have to be a good pathologist. So, obviously, good medical training is essential.

The center of gravity in FP is shifting (and really has for some time) towards Nuevo. However, the primary public perception -- and it seems also that of many people in the medical and even pathology fields-- is still firmly ensconced in Classic.

It's probably obvious I'm a Nuevo FP, so it's no surprize that I whole-heartedly disagree that FP should be disassciated from pathology or a full pathology residency. I rather think the two should be wedded more closely, as, for example, molecular/genetic diagnostic techniques can be developed to diagnose things like electrically unstable hearts, which can cause sudden fatal arrhythmias. That's just one example. Overall, forensic pathologists really need to be fully competent in applying firm biomedical-scientific principles to what they do, as well as be aware of new developments in medicine and pathology that could impact both the public, whom they serve, and their day to day work.

Long story short:
- You could definitely get an FP fellowship with AP-only.
- The extra year notwithstanding, AP/CP can ONLY help you, not hurt.
- If you can possibly stand it, Clinical Internship/AP/CP will only help you the more.
 
tardieu said:
There's basically two broad philosophies in FP (my designations, admitedly over-simplified):

1. Classic: The approach here is largely grounded in criminalistics and the forensic pathologist's/coroner's task is to investigate suspicious deaths to gather evidence for law enforcement agencies. Here the FP/C functions primarily like a detective and the most important part of thier training has to do with that and not with medicine. Sometimes, with coroners, these people come from law enforcement backgrounds and move into forensics by dint of interest and taking some night courses in anatomy, ect. The "interesting cases" these guys talk about at the water cooler are the bizzare accidents and weird/extreme homicides. The maxim here is that to be a good FP/C you need to be a good criminalist. So medical training is not that important.

2. Nuevo (or Accademic): The approach here is grounded in medicine and the FP's (these guys eschew coroners) task is to perform a medical assessment to determine cause and manner of death. This assessment deliberately and circumspectly goes beyond the immediate medical situation to incorporate broader elements of the circumstances in which a death occured. Here the FP functions like a physician who has specialized in pathology and subspecialized in forensic pathology. Their primary task is to arrive at a diagnosis. The "interesting cases" these guys talk about are the unique undiagnosed medical conditions which initially presented as sudden death. The maxim here is that to be a good forensic pathologist you have to be a good pathologist. So, obviously, good medical training is essential.

The center of gravity in FP is shifting (and really has for some time) towards Nuevo. However, the primary public perception -- and it seems also that of many people in the medical and even pathology fields-- is still firmly ensconced in Classic.

It's probably obvious I'm a Nuevo FP, so it's no surprize that I whole-heartedly disagree that FP should be disassciated from pathology or a full pathology residency. I rather think the two should be wedded more closely, as, for example, molecular/genetic diagnostic techniques can be developed to diagnose things like electrically unstable hearts, which can cause sudden fatal arrhythmias. That's just one example. Overall, forensic pathologists really need to be fully competent in applying firm biomedical-scientific principles to what they do, as well as be aware of new developments in medicine and pathology that could impact both the public, whom they serve, and their day to day work.

Long story short:
- You could definitely get an FP fellowship with AP-only, for now.
- The extra year notwithstanding, AP/CP can ONLY help you.
- If you can possibly stand it, Clinical Internship/AP/CP will only help you the more.

WTF are you talking about? What the hell is this "nuevo" crap? To my knowledge there is only one type of FP: the type that doesnt get paid much, but you are probably already aware of this.

Yes, let me train for 6+ years to make less money than 21-year old interns at Google.
 
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