Former ROTC'ers Help!

[stevesavi]

This is my situation. I am a 4 yr gtg senior army ROTC cadet, graduating in may. I have a ed delay and am accepted to several civilian medical schools, and on the army waitlist at usuhs. My battalion routinely goes on ftx's that require us to miss class. I looked into it and we are violating the training reg about field time. Having learned this i asked through my cadet chain whats going on. my c/bc brought it up to the pms a few times. while at a land nav exercise last weekend i was talking in a group with my instructor (maj), an nco instructor and a couple cadets and the pms came up and in a mocking-whiny voice started talking about the rule. After that he and I argued about it for 5 or 10 minutes.

I found out today from the msg that was standing there that the pms is looking into disenrolling me for insubordination/disrepect. Should I be worried or is this posturing?

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[dwb8p]

This is my situation. I am a 4 yr gtg senior army ROTC cadet, graduating in may. I have a ed delay and am accepted to several civilian medical schools, and on the army waitlist at usuhs. My battalion routinely goes on ftx's that require us to miss class. I looked into it and we are violating the training reg about field time. Having learned this i asked through my cadet chain whats going on. my c/bc brought it up to the pms a few times. while at a land nav exercise last weekend i was talking in a group with my instructor (maj), an nco instructor and a couple cadets and the pms came up and in a mocking-whiny voice started talking about the rule. After that he and I argued about it for 5 or 10 minutes.

I found out today from the msg that was standing there that the pms is looking into disenrolling me for insubordination/disrepect. Should I be worried or is this posturing?

You've got nothing to worry about. You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to disenroll a cadet on scholarship, especially that close to graduating.

What exactly did you say or do that would be grounds for disenrollment? Even if you were disrespectful, I cannot see it happening. More than likely the MSG is trying to screw with you.

I can empathize with you though. My cadre were never very supportive or understanding of the whole pre-med thing. My advice to you would be to go and talk to your PMS, apologize, and lay low until May. You only have a few months left.

 

[stevesavi]

Thanks for the advice. We just went back and forth for a bit, he got pretty heated. His arguments were all bogus, including lies, like the reg was outdated. When he would offer a justification like all the other commanders are doing it to I would counter it. I wasnt actively disrepectful but as you know in that setting I'm just supposed to say "hooah sir" rather than argue my point.

I dont thing the msg is messing with me, he's no friend of the pms. I think i might apologize and eat some crow rather than worry about this garbage. It would be devastating to get sent back to active duty as a e4 rather than go to med school, I'm freaking out even though it feels like a small chance.

anyway thanks again.

 

[Mirror Form]

Thanks for the advice. We just went back and forth for a bit, he got pretty heated. His arguments were all bogus, including lies, like the reg was outdated. When he would offer a justification like all the other commanders are doing it to I would counter it. I wasnt actively disrepectful but as you know in that setting I'm just supposed to say "hooah sir" rather than argue my point.

I dont thing the msg is messing with me, he's no friend of the pms. I think i might apologize and eat some crow rather than worry about this garbage. It would be devastating to get sent back to active duty as a e4 rather than go to med school, I'm freaking out even though it feels like a small chance.

anyway thanks again.

A few things:

1. As mentioned by previous posters, you almost certainly have nothing to worry about. It's really hard to disenroll students at your point, especially if you've already been granted an ed-delay. You cadre would have to really have it in for you to try and disenroll you now. Probably better to smooth things over with them anyway though (the army is a small world).

2. You should really know better by now than to try and argue with your cadre, especially in public. If you want to very respectfully bring something to their attention behind closed doors that is one thing (and that sounds what you tried to do initially). But even if one of your cadre mocks you in a manner that is immature and out of line, you cannot argue with them in public. If you plan on staying in the army get used to bending over and taking it. You'll deal with similar **** throughout med school and residency too. You don't count as a real person for another 8 years.

3. A lot of ROTC cadre are complete idiots and just don't understand what it's like to be a student. Unfortunately that is just the way it is. (eg. My ROTC cadre were all from west point and were completely clueless about life at normal colleges. Even though ROTC command actively encourages doing PT in the afternoon, they forced us to do PT at 5:45am 3 times per week w/o any understanding of how difficult it is to go to sleep early in freshman dorms. Needless to say, half the freshman just disenrolled every year in the first two months b/c they couldn't take their grades suffering from sleep deprivation.)

 

[Homunculus]

A few things:

1. As mentioned by previous posters, you almost certainly have nothing to worry about. It's really hard to disenroll students at your point, especially if you've already been granted an ed-delay. You cadre would have to really have it in for you to try and disenroll you now. Probably better to smooth things over with them anyway though (the army is a small world).

2. You should really know better by now than to try and argue with your cadre, especially in public. If you want to very respectfully bring something to their attention behind closed doors that is one thing (and that sounds what you tried to do initially). But even if one of your cadre mocks you in a manner that is immature and out of line, you cannot argue with them in public. If you plan on staying in the army get used to bending over and taking it. You'll deal with similar **** throughout med school and residency too. You don't count as a real person for another 8 years.

3. A lot of ROTC cadre are complete idiots and just don't understand what it's like to be a student. Unfortunately that is just the way it is. (eg. My ROTC cadre were all from west point and were completely clueless about life at normal colleges. Even though ROTC command actively encourages doing PT in the afternoon, they forced us to do PT at 5:45am 3 times per week w/o any understanding of how difficult it is to go to sleep early in freshman dorms. Needless to say, half the freshman just disenrolled every year in the first two months b/c they couldn't take their grades suffering from sleep deprivation.)

i agree. ROTC PMS's are usually the "out to pasture" line guys on their last gig. don't sweat it, he's probably just enjoying ruling his ROTC kingdom. plus, by the time you are done with school and residency, even your classmates will probably be out of the army. he knows you are right, but the last thing they want is to admit someone else called them on something. it's something that will repeat itself many times in your upcoming career.

i also agree with the cadre being out of touch. our SGM was some vietnam era nut, and our PMS was pissed he was passed over for COL. the CPT's were pretty cool and good mentors, but most of them (especially the enlisted cadre) really didn't understand college, let alone premed issues. we had PT at 0600 M-W-F and "oh by the way" mandatory BS sprung on us now and again. such fun.

--your friendly neighborhood advanced camp '99 alum caveman

 

[Old Grunt]

This is my situation. I am a 4 yr gtg senior army ROTC cadet, graduating in may. I have a ed delay and am accepted to several civilian medical schools, and on the army waitlist at usuhs. My battalion routinely goes on ftx's that require us to miss class. I looked into it and we are violating the training reg about field time. Having learned this i asked through my cadet chain whats going on. my c/bc brought it up to the pms a few times. while at a land nav exercise last weekend i was talking in a group with my instructor (maj), an nco instructor and a couple cadets and the pms came up and in a mocking-whiny voice started talking about the rule. After that he and I argued about it for 5 or 10 minutes.

I found out today from the msg that was standing there that the pms is looking into disenrolling me for insubordination/disrepect. Should I be worried or is this posturing?

I doubt you'll get dis-enrolled. That means the Army loses an officer that they are counting on. It is far above the scope of a PMS to do this.

Arguing with your PMS is not professional, but an O-5 instigating a fight with a cadet is even more unsightly.

I'd just finish my time out in the program without ruffling any more feathers. You don't want them to throw a wrench in you graduating and attending medical school by failing you in ROTC. That is something the PMS can do, especially since he is your instructor. He sounds like a petty, vindictive dude, so I wouldn't put it past him.

For future reference, pick your battles more wisely while in the military. I saw too many good soldiers (especially NCOs) get passed over because they weren't afraid to tell off the boss for some sort of stupidity. While that is virtuous in it's own right, it does little to help you out in the long run.

It's stupid, but sometimes you just have to play the game. Just don't be "that guy" when you get there.

 

[Old Grunt]

--your friendly neighborhood advanced camp '99 alum caveman

Hey, that's when I went to band camp (aka advanced camp) too.

Advanced camp was by far the most idiotic training experience I had while in the military. If I had to choose between going back to Ranger School or Advanced camp, I'd go with Ranger School. It sucked royally, but at least it wasn't a bunch of idiotic BS.

 

[Pemberley]

For future reference, pick your battles more wisely while in the military. I saw too many good soldiers (especially NCOs) get passed over because they weren't afraid to tell off the boss for some sort of stupidity. While that is virtuous in its own right, it does little to help you out in the long run.

It's stupid, but sometimes you just have to play the game. Just don't be "that guy" when you get there.

Good advice. Remember that in certain situations and with certain people (some of whom will have rank), being in the right does you no good whatsoever. Make sure, if you're going to take a stand, that it's over an issue worth the consequences. You'll have to watch your back until May with this guy around, wanting you gone, and possibly looking for an excuse to make it happen -- but at least it's only until May. Keep your mouth shut and your nose clean. You'll have to live the next 2-3 months keeping constantly in mind that what might not be worth mentioning for another cadet might be written up for you.

I'm a big supporter of telling it like it is whether the higher-ups like reality or not -- but keep the big picture in mind while you're doing it. Make sure that you can live with the people around you for your next X years on station, or that the issue you're working on is important enough to be worth not being able to do so.

I say this because I have been there.

 

[colbgw02]

Hey, that's when I went to band camp (aka advanced camp) too.

Advanced camp was by far the most idiotic training experience I had while in the military.

Amen. The most asinine month (or so) of my life. The idea that advanced camp was supposed to be a legitimate evaluation of leadership ability was laughable. My favorite part was the newly minted 2LTs, who had been commissioned all of 3 weeks prior, acting like general officers.

 

[Old Grunt]

Amen. The most asinine month (or so) of my life. The idea that advanced camp was supposed to be a legitimate evaluation of leadership ability was laughable. My favorite part was the newly minted 2LTs, who had been commissioned all of 3 weeks prior, acting like general officers.

The stupidity truly knew no bounds at band camp. Spot on about the butter bars. It's a good rank to have in certain situations (like being a platoon leader), but not at camp.

The only good part about camp was blowing off training for land nav to walk around the course and catch some of the sites. Pretty country up there.

OBC, by contrast, was much better. Of course, that was the real Army and not cadet land.

 

[dwb8p]

The stupidity truly knew no bounds at band camp. Spot on about the butter bars. It's a good rank to have in certain situations (like being a platoon leader), but not at camp.

The only good part about camp was blowing off training for land nav to walk around the course and catch some of the sites. Pretty country up there.

OBC, by contrast, was much better. Of course, that was the real Army and not cadet land.

HA, you must not be talking about medical OBC. That was by all standards just as if not more worthless than advanced camp.

 

[Old Grunt]

HA, you must not be talking about medical OBC. That was by all standards just as if not more worthless than advanced camp.

No, I went to IOBC. I am sure the mentality was a bit different there.

Though I am shocked to hear that anything could match band camp in worthlessness.

I didn't have to do BOLC, but I heard that is up there in the stupidity constellation too.

 

[a1qwerty55]

Amen. The most asinine month (or so) of my life. The idea that advanced camp was supposed to be a legitimate evaluation of leadership ability was laughable. My favorite part was the newly minted 2LTs, who had been commissioned all of 3 weeks prior, acting like general officers.

Wow, I'm having flashbacks. Thankfully I received my MCAT scores half way through and at that point Band Camp became very irrelevant.

My memory is of our reserve O-5 AG troll telling us to keep patrolling in an open field in the middle of the biggest electrical storm I've ever seen and a tornado watch. PRC-77 with whip antenna, all of of wearing steel pots. (I'm dating myself a bit). Needless to say, despite his bitching I had the platoon ground the gear and get to ground. Laid on my back and watched the most intense lightning storm and was glad I wasn't going to be a grunt.

 

[Old Grunt]

Wow, I'm having flashbacks. Thankfully I received my MCAT scores half way through and at that point Band Camp became very irrelevant.

My memory is of our reserve O-5 AG troll telling us to keep patrolling in an open field in the middle of the biggest electrical storm I've ever seen and a tornado watch. PRC-77 with whip antenna, all of of wearing steel pots. (I'm dating myself a bit). Needless to say, despite his bitching I had the platoon ground the gear and get to ground. Laid on my back and watched the most intense lightning storm and was glad I wasn't going to be a grunt.

Grunts have more sense. That was on reason I loved being an Infantry Officer. Despite the stereotypes, the most level headed, laid back, and decent officers I encountered in my very short, very un-distinquished career were combat arms.

That's why camp sucked. You had a ton of cadre from CS and CSS roles trying to play phoney hard. Most of the time, they had absolutely no clue about infantry tactics and were determined to try and make the experience into some sort of suck-a-thon (for no good reason).

The difference in mentality between the Infantry Officers versus other branches when I was a cadidiot was the primary reason I branched Infantry, and it was a good decision.

Anyways, not to run down other branches, but when it comes to the tactical side of the business; the amateurs tend to make things needlessly hard and stupid.

 

[a1qwerty55]

Grunts have more sense. That was on reason I loved being an Infantry Officer. Despite the stereotypes, the most level headed, laid back, and decent officers I encountered in my very short, very un-distinquished career were combat arms.

That's why camp sucked. You had a ton of cadre from CS and CSS roles trying to play phoney hard. Most of the time, they had absolutely no clue about infantry tactics and were determined to try and make the experience into some sort of suck-a-thon (for no good reason).

The difference in mentality between the Infantry Officers versus other branches when I was a cadidiot was the primary reason I branched Infantry, and it was a good decision.

Anyways, not to run down other branches, but when it comes to the tactical side of the business; the amateurs tend to make things needlessly hard and stupid.

The idiot leading us was AG branch, the grunt reference only had to do with my dislike of being, wet, cold and laying in mud (nothing disparaging towards Infantry) - actually as a profis doc I still had to do that, but not to the same degree as if I branched Infantry.

 

[Old Grunt]

The idiot leading us was AG branch, the grunt reference only had to do with my dislike of being, wet, cold and laying in mud (nothing disparaging towards Infantry) - actually as a profis doc I still had to do that, but not to the same degree as if I branched Infantry.

Oh, I know. Just making a point about how some of the CS and CSS branches seem to accumulate people with absolute no common sense.