guns guns guns!

[epidural man]

You guys love talking about guns....

Here is a question or two for ya....

I don't own a gun.

My wife and I are going to take the Front Sight handgun course in Nevada.

I have to rent a gun and it is about $200 for 4 days. I was going to rent the 9mm (since that is what I shot and trained with and carried in Ass-crackistan).

However, I see that $200 is near half the price of a new one. Plus, if I bring my own gun, I can buy my own ammo which is probably cheaper than the ammo they would force me to purchase (about $135 for 600 rounds - is that a lot?)

So, my question is - if I BUY a 9mm, and assuming I would want to sell it afterward, how do I sell it? Can one sell guns on Craigslist? I'm not sure I would feel comfortable selling a gun to just anyone.

Is it a problem to carry the gun (from California) in my car to Nevada?

What about borrowing a gun from someone? Is that like asking to borrow someone's wife?

JK.

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[chessknt]

I can answer some of that for you:

To sell a gun in CA (assuming you buy a CA legal one--keep in mind there is a waiting period so buy it with time to spare), you need to find a private buyer, exchange cash, then go through a FFL to do the exchange paperwork (+MOAR fees). You could do it on CL but I would recommend the calguns website.

You can legally carry your firearm unloaded in your trunk (assuming your trunk is not accessible from the passenger part of the car like a SUV) within CA. I am unsure of what happens when you cross state lines.

You can borrow a gun assuming it does not have any illegal modifications.

 

[Ferocity]

If this place has a nice selection of guns, it might be nice to try a few out before buying your own gun.

I buy/sell guns on gunbroker.com, it's like eBay, but for guns.

 

[pgg]

So, my question is - if I BUY a 9mm, and assuming I would want to sell it afterward, how do I sell it? Can one sell guns on Craigslist? I'm not sure I would feel comfortable selling a gun to just anyone.

10 day waiting period to buy in CA.

You can sell to anyone anywhere, it just has to go through a dealer. California prohibits person-to-person sales without a dealer or background check. All interstate transfers require a dealer. eBay prohibits any kind of firearm sales. Not sure about Craigslist.

The Beretta 9s are nice guns. The Stoeger Cougar is the same gun, made on the same equipment, usually sells for a bit less. My brother has one, and though I didn't have an issue M9 right next to it for comparison, it's essentially the same gun.

Is it a problem to carry the gun (from California) in my car to Nevada?

No. Unloaded. In either a locked container that is NOT the glove compartment / utility box. The trunk is a locked container, provided there's no access from the passenger compartment. Ammunition MAY be stored in the same container, it can even be in a magazine - "loaded" is legally defined as rounds in gun.

What about borrowing a gun from someone?

Generally legal, but actual intent matters. I think there's a time limit before a "loan" becomes a "gift" ... not sure where that line falls or if it varies state to state.

 

[jwk]

There have been lots of discussions centered around "best gun to buy" but these have almost exclusively centered on handguns of choice and occasionally shotguns. We've got a .22, a Glock 19, a Thompson 1911-style and a lovely 30-06 deer rifle in the house, so I'm well covered on that side. But what about semi-automatic rifles? I've already stated in another thread that I never had the desire to own an AR-15 style rifle, until now, when the possibility of not being able to get one inspires me to perhaps get one while I still can (if I can even find one in the next six months).

So - what to buy? I want a decent quality, semi-automatic rifle, but certainly not a cadillac version. Let's keep the price in the lower range, say $1500 or so. I will be taking it to the range and out in the country for practice.

 

[jwk]

Geez, it must suck being in California, on so many levels.

At any range I've been to in Georgia, the HIGHEST price I've paid for a handgun or long gun rental is $15 for as long as you're on the range. One of the ranges I go to is $10 for the first gun and $5 for each different gun you try after that. They even have full-auto rifles available to try - but that's about $50 plus the ammo, so it's a really quick $100 thrill if you're so inclined, which I'm not.

 

[BobBarker]

Colt 6920, M&P15. Both are around $1100 from Walmart or academy if you can find them.

 

[pgg]

I like shooting guns and talking about them as much as the next guy, but a half-dozen gun threads in the anesthesia forum is getting a little out of hand ... Let's try to keep all firearm-related discussion in one thread for a while and see how that goes.

I'm going to actively merge new threads into this one when they pop up. Please post as replies/followups to this thread rather than making a new one.

Carry on.

 

[pgg]

Geez, it must suck being in California, on so many levels.

The weather and Mexican food helps a little.

And what BobBarker said ... 6920 or M&P are great choices. Also, Armalite M15, Daniel Defense, Larue, Bravo Company USA. Palmetto State Armory has some that tend to be a little less expensive, but good value.

Honestly, they're all going to run about the same. AR15s are commodities, and nearly everyone makes in-spec parts. Small differences in sights, stocks, handguards, etc that amount to fit & finish and personal preference. Unless you pay top $ for match barrels the limiting factor when you shoot it is going to be the quality of ammunition you buy, and the nut behind the trigger. If you see something in stock, and it looks good, and you want it, buy it and shoot it.

 

[epidural man]

sounds like I should just rent....

 

[gasp]

You guys love talking about guns....

Here is a question or two for ya....

I don't own a gun.

My wife and I are going to take the Front Sight handgun course in Nevada.

I have to rent a gun and it is about $200 for 4 days. I was going to rent the 9mm (since that is what I shot and trained with and carried in Ass-crackistan).

However, I see that $200 is near half the price of a new one. Plus, if I bring my own gun, I can buy my own ammo which is probably cheaper than the ammo they would force me to purchase (about $135 for 600 rounds - is that a lot?)

So, my question is - if I BUY a 9mm, and assuming I would want to sell it afterward, how do I sell it? Can one sell guns on Craigslist? I'm not sure I would feel comfortable selling a gun to just anyone.

Is it a problem to carry the gun (from California) in my car to Nevada?

What about borrowing a gun from someone? Is that like asking to borrow someone's wife?

JK.

$200 for 4 days sounds like a lot. If you know what gun you want or can find out soon enough, I would just invest and buy it since you are going to anyways. It should not be a problem taking the gun to Nevada as long as it is legal there (some guns are legal in some states and not in other states depending on the model). You put it in the trunk, in it's box, unloaded, and no ammo nearby just to be on the safe side. As long as you have documentation stating you legally purchased it, you will be fine. When you want to sell the gun, you and the buyer go to a local FFL and say you want to do a private sale. The FFL does the background check etc (whatever they do in that state) on the buyer, ok's the deal, buyer gives you money, you give them the gun, you both sign papers saying you are legally transferring the gun to the buyer, FFL gets a fee, the end.

 

[Jay K]

Buy a Hi-Point 9mm for $170 new, or used for less at a pawn shop.

Now that I've opened up that can of worms...

 

[gtb]

Try armslist.com. It's more like the craigslist of guns. I, like other users have posted, use gunbroker.com. One drawback to gunbroker.com is most sellers will only ship to an FFL, which will add both time and about $20 to the total cost of the transfer. $135 / 600 rounds is around 22 cents / round, which at this current time, you cannot beat that price.

If you buy directly from an individual in CA, maybe you can avoid the hassle of a background check and the waiting period?

I'm envious of you getting to take the Front sight course.

 

[pgg]

Try armslist.com. It's more like the craigslist of guns. I, like other users have posted, use gunbroker.com. One drawback to gunbroker.com is most sellers will only ship to an FFL, which will add both time and about $20 to the total cost of the transfer. $135 / 600 rounds is around 22 cents / round, which at this current time, you cannot beat that price.

I've never had trouble with Gunbroker sellers shipping ammunition to my door, but all firearms have to go to a FFL, or felonies are being committed.

If you buy directly from an individual in CA, maybe you can avoid the hassle of a background check and the waiting period?

No. All firearm transfers in CA must go through a dealer and are subject to the waiting period.

 

[periopdoc]

all firearms have to go to a FFL, or felonies are being committed.

This is true in the State of California due to state law, not federal law. The legality varies state by state and it is critical to understand your state's laws on firearms transfer. If I am shipping a long gun to another resident of Montana, and I have no reason to believe that the person is not allowed to own the gun, then I can ship it to him by USPS or common carrier (UPS/ Fed-Ex). Similarly, I could ship a handgun to that same category of individual without going through a FFL. However, USPS regs prohibit shipping handguns to non-FFLs so I would have to use a common carrier for a handgun. Generally, I prefer to ship to a FFL for liability reasons.

The ATF regs. (Keep in mind that your state regs may be more restrictive)

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

Just wanted to get that out there for all the residents of free states. Know your state laws.

- pod

 

[pgg]

This is true in the State of California due to state law, not federal law. The legality varies state by state and it is critical to understand your state's laws on firearms transfer. If I am shipping a long gun to another resident of Montana, and I have no reason to believe that the person is not allowed to own the gun, then I can ship it to him by USPS or common carrier (UPS/ Fed-Ex). Similarly, I could ship a handgun to that same category of individual without going through a FFL. However, USPS regs prohibit shipping handguns to non-FFLs so I would have to use a common carrier for a handgun. Generally, I prefer to ship to a FFL for liability reasons.

[...]

Just wanted to get that out there for all the residents of free states. Know your state laws.

True, some intra-state transfers are legal without getting an FFL involved (for now - I think this will be one of few real changes we get out of current legislative efforts).

All interstate transfers have to go through a FFL though. I believe the only exception is for bequeathed firearms.

 

[pie944]

True, some intra-state transfers are legal without getting an FFL involved (for now - I think this will be one of few real changes we get out of current legislative efforts).

All interstate transfers have to go through a FFL though. I believe the only exception is for bequeathed firearms.

So if I visit my grandmother in Missouri and she gives me her three guns this summer, we mail them to a FFL in my state?

 

[RT2MD]

Off original topic, but trying to respect pgg's wishes!

Broke my Remington 870 in today by shooting a couple rounds of trap. Man! That is a heck of a lot of fun! Never shot clays before, but it lived up to my expectations. Good times!

 

[loveoforganic2]

Expensive ass hobby unfortunately. Glad you enjoyed it!

 

[Perrotfish]

You guys love talking about guns....

Here is a question or two for ya....

I don't own a gun.

My wife and I are going to take the Front Sight handgun course in Nevada.

I have to rent a gun and it is about $200 for 4 days. I was going to rent the 9mm (since that is what I shot and trained with and carried in Ass-crackistan).

However, I see that $200 is near half the price of a new one. Plus, if I bring my own gun, I can buy my own ammo which is probably cheaper than the ammo they would force me to purchase (about $135 for 600 rounds - is that a lot?)

So, my question is - if I BUY a 9mm, and assuming I would want to sell it afterward, how do I sell it? Can one sell guns on Craigslist? I'm not sure I would feel comfortable selling a gun to just anyone.

Is it a problem to carry the gun (from California) in my car to Nevada?

What about borrowing a gun from someone? Is that like asking to borrow someone's wife?

JK.

Please post you think of the Frontsight course. I've been thinking of doing it for awhile.

 

[periopdoc]

So if I visit my grandmother in Missouri and she gives me her three guns this summer, we mail them to a FFL in my state?

Assuming that she is still alive at the time you take possession of the guns, and you are a resident of a state other than Missouri, the law says that transferring the guns without going through a FFL in your home state is a federal felony for both your grandmother and you.

If she dies and you inherit them, then you can take possession of them without going through an FFL. This is not a federal felony.

If you both reside in the same state, then ou can take possession of them without going through an FFL. This is not a federal felony.

Of course, individual state regs may be more restrictive, this is just federal regs. You will obviously need to be certain that the guns she wants to give you are legal in your state and your state doesn't have other restrictions on transfers.

- pod

 

[countingdays]

Assuming that she is still alive at the time you take possession of the guns, and you are a resident of a state other than Missouri, the law says that transferring the guns without going through a FFL in your home state is a federal felony for both your grandmother and you.

If she dies and you inherit them, then you can take possession of them without going through an FFL. This is not a federal felony.

If you both reside in the same state, then ou can take possession of them without going through an FFL. This is not a federal felony.

Of course, individual state regs may be more restrictive, this is just federal regs. You will obviously need to be certain that the guns she wants to give you are legal in your state and your state doesn't have other restrictions on transfers.

- pod

How is anyone supposed to find out where they came from? They aren't registered. There's no trail to follow.

 

[periopdoc]

It appears that he was asking about the right and legal way to transfer the firearms, and I answered as such. Personally, I don't fück around with firearms laws. What you are suggesting/ hinting at is that both he and his grandmother commit felonies in order to simplify the transfer of the firearms. We generally frown upon those kinds of recommendations here. I am certain that folks do this all the time and get away with it, but make no mistake about it, it is a felony for both the transferer and the recipient.


- pod

 

[pie944]

Assuming that she is still alive at the time you take possession of the guns, and you are a resident of a state other than Missouri

- pod

This is the situation.

Can one find an FFL in my state who will take a shipment directly from her? Or is the best bet just to go thru an FFL in both states to make the process as smooth as possible?

Thank you for all the help.

 

[countingdays]

Well, it probably is best to avoid breaking the law (even though it isn't a moral law) and I'm not recommending it.
Of course there is no meaningful difference between getting gifts from in-state vs out-of-state or from a living relative vs a dead relative, but might makes right.

 

[periopdoc]

You should be able to find a FFL in your state that will accept shipments from non FFLs. Just be sure and find one before you go up to your grandmothers so that you have everything set up in advance.

If handguns are involved, it is likely cheaper to get an FFL in Missouri to ship the handguns by USPS for you. It is likely cheaper to pay the transfer fee than to pay the 2nd day air UPS Fed-Ex charges.

- pod

 

[DreamMachine]

what's with all these gun threads?

 

[periopdoc]

Well, it probably is best to avoid breaking the law (even though it isn't a moral law) and I'm not recommending it.
Of course there is no meaningful difference between getting gifts from in-state vs out-of-state or from a living relative vs a dead relative, but might makes right (as far as your f'ed up government is concerned) so follow the law.

I agree it's a crappy law, get ready for a bunch more crappy laws. At this point, state's rights allow us to transfer private individual to private individual within the same state. Otherwise the feds would have made this illegal a while ago. I am certain that this right will be taken away this year.


As far as pie, here would be my concern if he skirts the law.

He has already told us that he lives in an area with a fairly high crime rate and burglaries are an issue.

Now lets say that he leaves for work one day and his house gets burgled and his new guns stolen.

They are subsequently used in a homicide and traced back to his grandmother in Missouri.

How did they get to pie's apartment?

Now the current ATF and most federal prosecutors seem to be pretty uninterested in enforcing gun laws like this (some federal prosecutors are more aggressive like the new one in Seattle), but who is to say what a newly energized ATF might be interested in pursuing.

Stay safe, keep it above board. Inconvenient and ridiculous, but in your best interest.

- pod

 

[pgg]

Well, it probably is best to avoid breaking the law (even though it isn't a moral law) and I'm not recommending it.
Of course there is no meaningful difference between getting gifts from in-state vs out-of-state or from a living relative vs a dead relative, but might makes right.

What's frustrating is that the laws vary so much state to state, and are so complex and irrational that they're frequenlty misunderstood even by the police and other officials whose job it is to know them.

Three times I've called the California Dept of Justice Firearms Office with a question and three times the well-informed assistant associate vice director clown told me to commit a felony (twice concerning interstate handgun transfers, once concerning my military assault weapon permit).

There are a lot of honest accidental felons out there. No need to bend the laws you do know.

 

[periopdoc]

Always get it in writing.

If the ATF or other entity tells you that something that doesn't seem kosher, tell them to give you a written interpretation.

- pod

 

[pgg]

Always get it in writing.

If the ATF or other entity tells you that something that doesn't seem kosher, tell them to give you a written interpretation.

The last time I called the CA DOJ was concerning an interstate, intrafamilial, off-roster handgun transfer. Sort of complex, with some odd paperwork requirements, but so long as the transfer is vertical (parent to child, grandparent to child) and not horizontal (sibling to sibling), and an actual gift, it's a legal means to import a handgun that is not on the CA-approved safe handgun roster. I was just trying to determine if the letter documenting the gift transfer needed to be in any particular format.

Idiot on the phone told me to just drive to Arizona, pick it up, come back, and send in a $19 check to register it.


I had a similar interaction with them concerning my military assault weapon permit (which they declined to renew last year, forcing me to send a few of my rifles out of state). The previous two years, they also "forgot" to send me renewal paperwork, and it took some effort to track it down.

The firearms branch of the CA DOJ is truly run by absolutely incompetent people. They refused to put their instructions in writing, just telling me to check their web page. They ignored my written requests for instructions.

At least the ATF will reply with a letter (eventually) if you ask them for a clarification or rule.

 

[BobBarker]

Your deceased grandfather has bequeathed these guns to you years ago and your grandmother has been storing them for you. Retrieve your personal property and take it home.

 

[periopdoc]

Do you have a written will to prove it? Won't fly it you don't.

- pod

 

[pie944]

Your deceased grandfather has bequeathed these guns to you years ago and your grandmother has been storing them for you. Retrieve your personal property and take it home.

He passed away when my father was ten.

Utilizing an FFL in each state doesn't seem like that big of a hassle.

My goal is to make sure no law is broken, state, federal, or local in the transfer process.

 

[Perrotfish]

What's frustrating is that the laws vary so much state to state, and are so complex and irrational that they're frequenlty misunderstood even by the police and other officials whose job it is to know them.

Would you prefer laws concerning handgun sales and registration be federalized?

 

[pgg]

Would you prefer laws concerning handgun sales and registration be federalized?

If it meant any resident of any state could make a purchase in any state, national shall issue (or at least national reciprocity like we have for drivers licenses), and NO registration, yes.

You can't get any more screwed up than CA, NY, IL ...

Utilizing an FFL in each state doesn't seem like that big of a hassle.

You only need a FFL on the receiving end. No legal requirement that a firearm be sent from/through an FFL.

 

[periopdoc]

But in most cases it is cheaper to send from a FFL if you are shipping a handgun since that allows you to send through USPS instead of UPS/Fed-Ex who require 2nd day air shipment for firearms.

Also, there are many FFLs who won't accept inbound shipments from non-FFLs. Not a big deal, just find one who will.

-pod

 

[Arch Guillotti]

what's with all these gun threads?

Hot topic in light of recent events. Personally, I am not a gun person but there are many on the forum who are.

 

[epidural man]

Please post you think of the Frontsight course. I've been thinking of doing it for awhile.

Two years later...in case you are still around (sorry...just saw this).


Frontsite was sooo fun. It was really a great course. I plan on doing it again. My fingers were very raw - I shot a LOT of rounds.

I ended up buying a glock - 35. The handle is too big for me. I shot my friends gun that shot .38 special - loved it - shot way better