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My 6-year-old daughter celebrating our freedoms by shooting my suppressed AR-15 300 Blackout. F Yeah
Happy Independence Day
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My 6-year-old daughter celebrating our freedoms by shooting my suppressed AR-15 300 Blackout. F Yeah
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deleted171991
You're irresponsible. F yeah!
Adults have freedoms. Children have parents. There is absolutely no reason for a six year-old to play with a gun. That should be illegal. And then people are surprised when half of this country pisses on the 2nd amendment. You guys don't know where to stop. Thank you for changing my perspective. I am the kind of guy who disagrees even about minors being allowed to drive, so imagine my horror about shooting guns.
With freedoms, just because one could doesn't mean one should.
Adults have freedoms. Children have parents. There is absolutely no reason for a six year-old to play with a gun. That should be illegal. And then people are surprised when half of this country pisses on the 2nd amendment. You guys don't know where to stop. Thank you for changing my perspective. I am the kind of guy who disagrees even about minors being allowed to drive, so imagine my horror about shooting guns.
With freedoms, just because one could doesn't mean one should.
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Is Poe's Law at work here?
FFP, there's nothing wrong or unsafe about her shooting that rifle under the supervision of her parent. She's going to grow up with actual knowledge, experience, and respect for firearms.
ALL kids should have this opportunity.
Adults too. A suppressed 300 BLK is a lot of fun.
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deleted171991
No, pgg. Today is under a parent's supervision, later it can be on her own, as many of the gun accidents happen, when children play with their parents' guns. And POD's f yeah attitude is not at all reassuring.Is Poe's Law at work here?
FFP, there's nothing wrong or unsafe about her shooting that rifle under the supervision of her parent. She's going to grow up with actual knowledge, experience, and respect for firearms.
ALL kids should have this opportunity.
Adults too. A suppressed 300 BLK is a lot of fun.
There is a reason we don't allow 6 year-old's to drive cars, not even in a parking lot. There is time for that later. A child at this age has little respect for anything; they are all toys.
As I said: just because adults have freedoms, doesn't mean that children should.
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No, with respect, you're just wrong on this.
pod's kid, and mine, aren't going to have accidents with guns. They don't have unsupervised access. And if they're at a friend's home where the parents are irresponsible enough to leave them laying around, they will have the basic experience and knowledge to not play with them, and be a positive influence on the others.
What you're arguing for here is that education and training are harmful, and that's just nuts.
Last, and I mean this with all respect, I know you hail from a different country, culture, and type of government ... please exercise some caution when calling for something (anything) to be made illegal here.
pod's kid, and mine, aren't going to have accidents with guns. They don't have unsupervised access. And if they're at a friend's home where the parents are irresponsible enough to leave them laying around, they will have the basic experience and knowledge to not play with them, and be a positive influence on the others.
What you're arguing for here is that education and training are harmful, and that's just nuts.
Last, and I mean this with all respect, I know you hail from a different country, culture, and type of government ... please exercise some caution when calling for something (anything) to be made illegal here.
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deleted162650
My grandpa used to take his .22 with him on the walk to school and keep it in the classroom closet so he could shoot squirrels on the walk home. Sad times we live in these days.
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deleted171991
I also mean everything with respect, especially for the traditions of the country that has adopted me, and for its Constitution and laws. I understand how important education is, that there is no security through obscurity, that the safest way to keep guns around kids is to explain things to them, even in detail, even allowing them to try them once or twice. I also understand the power of the forbidden fruit, and why it's best not to forbid things to children. But guns, cars, cigarettes, alcohol etc. don't belong in children's hands, even under supervision, at the age of six.
This has nothing to do with my foreign roots; it has to do with my common sense. Kids are kids, and will always lack judgment and do stupid things, even good kids. So while I respect the second amendment, I don't think it should extend to 6 year-old children. And the tone of POD's post was not about teaching self-defense, it was about f the liberals who (among others) would restrict a father's right to allow his 6 year-old daughter to play with a rifle (because let's be honest, that's exactly what is going on at that age). The latter being considered unwise in the entire civilized world, supervision or not.
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Again, this 6-year-old doesn't have unsupervised access to guns. The kid's judgement, and propensity to do stupid kid things, is not an issue here. At all.
My kids are older (18, 16, and 14) and they still don't have access to our guns. They don't have the safe combination.
Because this 6-yo has received instruction, which (knowing pod) came with discussion of firearm safety, purpose, danger, and an admonition to never touch one without an adult present, she is at LOWER risk than a kid who never had this opportunity.
Shooting is safe, and fun. Early involvement in shooting sports is a good thing - it wasn't long ago that public schools had shooting ranges. The discipline and work required to develop good marksmanship are very positive influences on kids.
Your objections are irrational.
My kids are older (18, 16, and 14) and they still don't have access to our guns. They don't have the safe combination.
Because this 6-yo has received instruction, which (knowing pod) came with discussion of firearm safety, purpose, danger, and an admonition to never touch one without an adult present, she is at LOWER risk than a kid who never had this opportunity.
Shooting is safe, and fun. Early involvement in shooting sports is a good thing - it wasn't long ago that public schools had shooting ranges. The discipline and work required to develop good marksmanship are very positive influences on kids.
Your objections are irrational.
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deleted171991
I always like a good argument, especially one that educates me.
For the moment, let's just agree to disagree. But you do have a point: education is good, especially when it leads to both knowledge and discipline. Again, we could argue what guns and especially at what age.
But I am not being irrational, when I am shocked to see an AR-15 in the hands of 6 year-old, even for "educational" purposes.
For the moment, let's just agree to disagree. But you do have a point: education is good, especially when it leads to both knowledge and discipline. Again, we could argue what guns and especially at what age.
But I am not being irrational, when I am shocked to see an AR-15 in the hands of 6 year-old, even for "educational" purposes.
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Is your objection that she is shooting a rifle at all, or that the rifle is an AR-15? Because that would be irrational.
Would it make any difference if you knew that a typical AR-15 fires much smaller rounds, with much less recoil, than a hunting rifle (.223 vs .308)? That they're low recoil, easy to control, accurate, and therefore ideal for teaching new shooters? That the pistol grip that is so reviled by "assault rifle" ban authors, simply make the firearm more ergonomic and easy to handle? That the scary collapsible stock, also reviled by "assault rifle" ban authors, simply makes the rifle adjustable to comfortably and safely fit large men and 6-year-old girls alike?
That the particular AR in the video is actually not chambered in .223 at all, but rather a caliber that (in this case) is shooting subsonic ammunition, at 1/3 the velocity of the .223 cartridge? That the rifle has a sound suppressor, making it even more appropriate for teaching because of the reduction in noise and reduced risk of hearing loss?
Does any of that alter your impression of how responsible or irresponsible her father is?
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Eh, I don't think it matters what type of weapon you are talking about. I wouldn't train my kid to use my handgun. Or for that matter an AR-15, a knife, a sword or a poison-tipped-blowgun for all I care - with or without adult supervision.
I know you think your 6-year-old is extremely responsible but mine still throws tantrums about ridiculous things. Like all small children (and some teenagers) they have very impaired judgement. Would you train a severe schizophrenic with an AR-15 under adult supervision? Because a 6 year old still can barely understand the permanence of death and displays "magical thinking" similar to this type of patient.
Will a kid grow up to be a more responsible gun owner by starting training at 6 vs 16?
Why doesn't it suffice to show them the guns and tell them they are dangerous tools to only be handled by an adult (same as my bandsaw, or the nailgun).
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I learned ~10 with a single shot 22. That seemed appropriate. Dad didnt even own ammo unless we were going shooting as far as I knew. His guns were in a safe that I would never have touched.
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The authors of the constitution lived in a time when duels were acceptable means of settling disputes. I'm all for the second amendment if we can bring back the duel.
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I've heard in some parts of Europe alcohol is given to kids. Some non-Europeans may find this problematic given all the bad consequences often seen in alcohol consumption. However, if a family is responsible and mature with all this, doesn't abuse it, teaches their kids right, etc., then I don't necessarily see anything wrong with giving some alcohol to some kids. Many seem to grow up just fine.
(Of course, this is an argument from analogy. It's meant to parallel guns and alcohol. But obviously guns and alcohol aren't perfectly analogous to one another, so the argument isn't perfect either. It only works to the degree the analogies work. It won't work where there are disanalogies).
(Of course, this is an argument from analogy. It's meant to parallel guns and alcohol. But obviously guns and alcohol aren't perfectly analogous to one another, so the argument isn't perfect either. It only works to the degree the analogies work. It won't work where there are disanalogies).
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/07/two-police-officers-reportedly-shot-during-dallas-protest.html
looks like at least 3 officers hit now. somewhere between 10-20 shots fired initially
guy on facebook recording way too close to the action
looks like at least 3 officers hit now. somewhere between 10-20 shots fired initially
guy on facebook recording way too close to the action
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We should feel better that this gun does everything but rub a kid's tummy, AND is super accurate from a distance?
You have a right to have fun with your kids however you like, but I think you greatly overestimate the maturity of kids in general and pre-adolescents in particular. If they follow half your instructions you're doing ok. With guns, half probably isn't good enough.
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In this country, you can carry a gun with a permit, but you may get shot for it if someone misinterprets why you have it. Then someone may get shot while people protest the fact that you got shot.
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I'm confident that it's how my kids work, but it's really a moot point since they don't have access to my guns. Should they ever find one at a McDonalds or a friend's house, I'd rather they have the benefit of instruction, familiarity, and respect than nothing at all.
Or are you really suggesting that absolute faith in kids' decision making ability is a prerequisite for teaching them something?
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deleted171991
Some of us would argue that certain things should not be taught under a certain age, period. For guns, that age is very debatable, but in my book it's pretty close to adult age. Same goes for driving, alcohol, and a bunch of other stuff. Some parents should just learn to say No to their kids. There are much better ways to form long lasting memories than going to a shooting range.
There is one very easy education most of the civilized world has about guns, for their children: stay away from them, do not touch if offered. Kept me out of trouble my entire life. I also tend to stay away from people with guns, except in isolated areas where those are a necessity. And while I understand the reason for the second amendment, I find the whole concept of citizens in armed conflict with an authoritarian government ridiculous in the 21st century. Not because it couldn't happen, but because it's David fighting a thousand Goliaths.
I also have strong doubts about 16, or even 18, as driving age. Or voting age, for that matter. And no, I don't identify as liberal or progressive. These are just my opinions; if ever asked in a referendum, that's how I would vote, but otherwise it's not something I feel strong enough about to pick a battle.
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In many states hunting is an important part of the culture and deer population management strategies as we have killed off other predators. In order to keep up the tradition and keep having hunters, most states have found that it helps to let people start fairly young. Many states have hunting ages of 10-12. Personally, if a child is going to be walking around in the woods with a rifle I want them to have had several years of shooting at a range and learning gun safety and accurate shooting before that time.
There are also parts of the country with competitive rifle shooting as a high school sport and it is an NCAA scholarship sport. So the purple during towards those scholarships generally start training in high school or earlier.
I don't expect any of this information to change your mind per se. But I think it is important for you to realise how normal teaching children to shoot is in many parts of this country. Also, this points out the large number of children that are using rifles regularly without accidents when taught to be careful and follow safety rules.
Personally, I was 4 when my dad taught me to shoot. Got a deer every year from when I was 12 until I went to college out of state.
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There are also parts of the country with competitive rifle shooting as a high school sport and it is an NCAA scholarship sport. So the purple during towards those scholarships generally start training in high school or earlier.
I don't expect any of this information to change your mind per se. But I think it is important for you to realise how normal teaching children to shoot is in many parts of this country. Also, this points out the large number of children that are using rifles regularly without accidents when taught to be careful and follow safety rules.
Personally, I was 4 when my dad taught me to shoot. Got a deer every year from when I was 12 until I went to college out of state.
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The thing is sometimes some of the worst things that a child may do is something that was instructed to them by their parents. I'm not saying you in particular are a bad parent or even the person in the video, but when an Aurora or a Columbine occurs, please don't be the first to say "Oh no little Johnny. He never would have." Well, yeah, he would have because children and teens (and adults) are capable of all sorts of behavior but children in particular have less decision making skills than adults (thus driving rules, drinking rules, etc.
So I see what you're saying but have to side with FFP on this one.
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deleted171991
There are hunters in the rest of the civilized world, too. Yet none of them are children, AFAIK. As for competitive sport shooting, I am OK with it (every country needs good snipers), but in a well-organized club, with sport guns that are stored at the club.
I am not talking about people living in dangerous areas. There are parts of this country where even I would consider owning a gun. That's why I think that this, like many other things, should not be regulated at federal level. But I am concerned about certain aspects of this culture, and the access and exposure children get to guns early in their lives. I also don't see how having an arsenal at home falls under the second amendment.
I am sorry, but I see the gun at home culture very similar to the smoking, drug or alcohol at home culture: as adults, kids tend to do what they saw at home during childhood.
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Would you say the same for kids who grew up fixing and riding motorcycles with their dads in the garage or those who grew up fishing on the lake?
Smoking, alcohol and the drug culture doesn't quite fit in the same box as the gun culture IMO.
Mind you, kids get severely hurt or even die every year while riding motocross. They start at a very young age. Some are riding by 3 y/o.
Looks like responsible 10 year olds to me.
I'm not going to be vociforous about banning their right to persue a family activity.
I see no difference btw/ the "gun culture" and the "moto culture".
Both can be taught responisbly at a young age.
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Nancy Lanza taught her sons how to use a gun.
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deleted171991
That doesn't seem normal either. There is a reason we call motorcyclists "organ donors". Except that most motorcyclist vs others accidents lead to injuring mostly the former, while with gun vs others is more about the latter.Would you say the same for kids who grew up fixing and riding motorcycles with their dads in the garage or those who grew up fishing on the lake?
Smoking, alcohol and the drug culture doesn't quite fit in the same box as the gun culture IMO.
Mind you, kids get severely hurt or even die every year while riding motocross. They start at a very young age. Some are riding by 3 y/o.
Looks like responsible 10 year olds to me.
I'm not going to be vociforous about banning their right to persue a family activity.
I see no difference btw/ the "gun culture" and the "moto culture".
Both can be taught responisbly at a young age.
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deleted171991
No. But those guns are probably benign enough for it to satisfy the quality of sport without risking significant harm to others. If it's about education and sport, and discipline, it doesn't have to be a performant homicidal semiautomatic weapon.
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deleted171991
It is cultural, so I apologize for running my mouth freely here.
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I wonder if Ted Bundy's mother taught him how to use a knife. Your comment is pretty absurd.
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Kids, especially young ones, are like dogs. They are cute and cuddly at baseline, but inherently unpredictable. Kudos to everyone who's raised their kid to shoot a gun or operate a motorized vehicle without incident, but just a couple months of PICU and a couple years of pediatric anesthesia have been enough to dissuade me of that notion. The number of kids who've shot themselves or another kid, or crashed an ATV, or been bitten by dogs, is way too high. Sometimes it is inattentive parents doing stupid stuff leaving kids or weapons or vehicles unsupervised, but sometimes it's kids with great parents whose kid went rogue and decided that riding the ATV without a helmet or playing with the neighborhood dog or lost control of the gun at the range and shot their family member/instructor was just too tempting.
You obviously can't keep your kid in a plastic bubble their entire life, but you can restrict their access to lethal objects and activities. I get that the overall risk is still very small, but I'm an anesthesiologist. My job is to take very small risks and make them even smaller. And this is an easy one. There are other ways to have fun besides firearms and motorized vehicles.
You obviously can't keep your kid in a plastic bubble their entire life, but you can restrict their access to lethal objects and activities. I get that the overall risk is still very small, but I'm an anesthesiologist. My job is to take very small risks and make them even smaller. And this is an easy one. There are other ways to have fun besides firearms and motorized vehicles.
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The olympics is a high bar. Biathlon, 50m pistol and rifle, skeet, and archery come to mind.
Would you accept the spec used for competitions organized by a century-old (and still active) U.S. Government chartered program that promotes firearm safety training and rifle practice for all qualified U.S. Citizens with special emphasis on youth?
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deleted171991
Probably yes (I don't know much about weapons), especially if legal in California.
Anyway, it's not about me, it's about what's safe for kids. In the end, that's all that matters. I am not trying to change anything here, except maybe some minds. I was just shocked to see (basically) a kindergartener shoot a semiautomatic rifle. I just can't be OK with that, I'm sorry. We can debate all day long and rationalize it every way, it still won't seem right.
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Probably yes (I don't know much about weapons), especially if legal in California.
Anyway, it's not about me, it's about what's safe for kids. In the end, that's all that matters. I am not trying to change anything here, except maybe some minds. I was just shocked to see (basically) a kindergartener shoot a semiautomatic rifle. I just can't be OK with that, I'm sorry. We can debate all day long and rationalize it every way, it still won't seem right.
You are free to raise your kids as you see fit.
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Probably yes (I don't know much about weapons), especially if legal in California.
The Civilian Marksmanship Program is "a federally chartered 501(c)(3) corporation that places its highest priority on serving youth through gun safety and marksmanship activities that encourage personal growth and build life skills."
The CMP was originally founded in 1903, and has been selling surplus military rifles such as the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M1903 Springfield, and others for the program since then. Still runs the national matches every summer at Camp Perry, OH.
The National Matches were first held in 1903, moved to Camp Perry, Ohio, in 1907 and continue to take place every summer at Camp Perry. The National Matches have become a huge, national shooting sports festival with well over 6,000 annual participants. School students and competition event shooters range from beginners to many of the world’s best.
Most modern competitors use AR-15 rifles, some still use Garands or occasionally older rifles. On the service pistol side, most are using semiautomatic 1911 .45 cal pistols, though a few use the 9mm Beretta M9. (All legal in California. Except the AR-15, which was banned about two weeks ago.)
Those aren't Olympic spec Anshutz air rifles ...
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deleted171991
Fair enough. On one condition: if a minor commits a criminal offense, the parent is criminally liable.
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Maybe you should look up the definition of absurd. There was nothing in my statement that was illogical, inappropriate, or lacked reason. I stated a simple fact reported by many news outlets.
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You are implying that an insane individual went on a shooting spree because his mother taught him gun safety.
That lacks a lot of reason. It is fact that his mother taught him gun safety, but pure speculation (and a pretty fallacious argument at best) to state that's why he killed a bunch of people. If that were the case, millions who were taught gun safety by parents would be mass murderers.
Not impressed.
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I wonder if the parents of those 6 year olds thought it was absurd that Nancy Lanza taught her son how to use an assault rifle?
In a debate about guns and gun safety, ignoring incidents like the Sandy Hook shooting is illogical and inappropriate. In other words, absurd.
