Hard Work in Undergrad to Medical School?

[The One Who Knocks]

Hi all,

I just wanted to voice something that has been on my mind, and really would like the input of fellow pre-meds.

Being a sophomore student, I find myself working extremely hard (and studying a whole lot) for my classes. Every now and then I find my mind drifting, thinking about what my future will be like as a med student, and I get an anxious feeling about whether I will be able to handle the med-school work load.

I am an A student, but I work for those As. My question is: do any of you ever feel the same way? Is it normal to doubt yourself from time to time?

My grades are high, but so is my effort. I am just wondering how this will translate into med school where my effort remains high, but the work is multiplied.

Thanks for your input! I really would like to discuss this!

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[Osteoth]

As someone who was recently accepted into medical school, I can tell you from very recent experience that I doubted myself the entire time until I got the call saying I was into medical school. The process is not easy, it is expensive, you will be rejected, you will be humbled.

If you are accepted into medical school, the school(s) that accept you have confidence that you have the academic and personal traits necessary to succeed in their medical school and in general. For now, these points are moot, just continue to get good grades, and when the time comes you will measure yourself others in a similar situation as yourself, and determine your "confidence" level.

 

[circulus vitios]

I got through undergrad with a great work ethic. I'm a C student in med school.

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

I am a straight A student as well. As Osteoth nicely stated, our GPAs are moot, or subject to change. I am confident, but very cautious, because I know how easy it is to cause major setbacks or irreparable damage. I ask myself if I am smart, if I will be talented enough, if I will be patient enough.. All I know is I want to be a physician, and I will work as hard has I can to achieve that goal.
You should know it is normal to experience doubt; it is human nature..
I think it is better you are conscientious as opposed to one of those who think life will just "work itself out."

Medical students will tell you soon how their expectations measured up to reality.

 

[The Kraken]

I think the most overlooked thing when comparing undergrad to med school is discounting undergrad rigor. A hard undergrad prepares you quite well for the time commitment of med school compared to your average podunk state school. Titrate up slightly for med school from your hardest semester at undergrad and you have med school.

 

[sinombre]

I think the most overlooked thing when comparing undergrad to med school is discounting undergrad rigor. A hard undergrad prepares you quite well for the time commitment of med school compared to your average podunk state school. Titrate up slightly for med school from your hardest semester at undergrad and you have med school.

Ehh, maybe the first half of first year of med school. Undergrad can obviously prepare you quite well for med school, but slightly titrating up undergrad does not give you a good idea of what second year feels like.

 

[Jabbed]

I think the most overlooked thing when comparing undergrad to med school is discounting undergrad rigor. A hard undergrad prepares you quite well for the time commitment of med school compared to your average podunk state school. Titrate up slightly for med school from your hardest semester at undergrad and you have med school.

People normally point to specific undergrad classes when comparing the workload to med school. Your average med school curriculum is a great deal more difficult than your average biology major. If you major in a real STEM field, I would wager that it would be either comparable or even more difficult than med school.

 

[Ismet]

Moving to pre-allo

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

.

 

[Osteoth]

People normally point to specific undergrad classes when comparing the workload to med school. Your average med school curriculum is a great deal more difficult than your average biology major. If you major in a real STEM field, I would wager that it would be either comparable or even more difficult than med school.

STEM = Science, technology, engineering, math

So since biology is one of the core sciences, I assume you're saying a STEM field is technology/engineering/math?

 

[Jabbed]

STEM = Science, technology, engineering, math

So since biology is one of the core sciences, I assume you're saying a STEM field is technology/engineering/math?

What I was really saying is that I don't consider a BA or BS in general biology to be a real STEM degree. Various other natural science degrees like microbio & immuno, neuroscience, molecular genetics, physics sub-disciplines, chemical engingeering, etc are a different matter.

This is just my opinion.

 

[TheLionheart]

I got through undergrad with a great work ethic. I'm a C student in med school.

And this has nothing to do with the fact that all your posts talk about how you're just looking to pass and not do anything competitive post-medical school?

To the OP: I think it will be a jump in difficulty. Going from high school to college (at least for me) required some changes and more effort, and medical school will also involve changes and more effort. That being said, I concur with what was said earlier. Adcom's do not want students to fail out--therefore, they select students who they think can cut it academically.

 

[circulus vitios]

And this has nothing to do with the fact that all your posts talk about how you're just looking to pass and not do anything competitive post-medical school?

To the OP: I think it will be a jump in difficulty. Going from high school to college (at least for me) required some changes and more effort, and medical school will also involve changes and more effort. That being said, I concur with what was said earlier. Adcom's do not want students to fail out--therefore, they select students who they think can cut it academically.

I'm not sure. I mean I am lazy, but I've also hit a wall where my brain can't memorize everything I need to. Med school is a lot different than undergrad, that's for sure.

 

[TheLionheart]

I'm not sure. I mean I am lazy, but I've also hit a wall where my brain can't memorize everything I need to. Med school is a lot different than undergrad, that's for sure.

The prevailing wisdom I see over in allo is that you can't possibly memorize everything, so it's best to figure out other ways to succeed. But I can't really discuss any of that, since I haven't actually started M1 yet.

There are people that do well, and I'm sure not all of them are the ones that were 99th percentile on the MCAT. Really, I think OP just wants reassurance that it's not impossible (or even unlikely) to pass medical school. And I think the best signs of that are the low attrition rates at US schools.

 

[Mr. Vandemar]

I went to an easy state school for undergrad and never took more than 4 courses at a time (in a non-science major). I am doing very well in medical school. The amount of work you need to do is pretty extreme, but as long as you are dedicated to not getting behind you'll be fine. The people that are at or below average tend to value free time, or their family, and study less than others. I can only think of a couple people who study very hard and still do poorly - and even they are passing. Those people study inefficiently.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

I went to an easy state school for undergrad and never took more than 4 courses at a time (in a non-science major). I am doing very well in medical school. The amount of work you need to do is pretty extreme, but as long as you are dedicated to not getting behind you'll be fine. The people that are at or below average tend to value free time, or their family, and study less than others. I can only think of a couple people who study very hard and still do poorly - and even they are passing. Those people study inefficiently.

That's nice to hear. I guess I am hoping that I'll be able to measure up. The fact that we work hard in undergrad, and the amount of work is only heightening as we enter med school, I'm hoping it translates into continued success. Not sure because I haven't gotten to that stage, but still, reassuring after hearing what you all had to say.

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

That's nice to hear. I guess I am hoping that I'll be able to measure up. The fact that we work hard in undergrad, and the amount of work is only heightening as we enter med school, I'm hoping it translates into continued success. Not sure because I haven't gotten to that stage, but still, reassuring after hearing what you all had to say.

Measure up? it's not about the size of it, its how you use it!
Wait, wrong analogy..
With hard work, we will survive; I hope.

 

[LostinLift]

You can still cram in med school, you just need a few days instead of the night before. That said, I studied fairly diligently for the first test and have slowly backed off studying just to see how much free time I could give myself. Now that I'm almost done with first semester I roughly know what I need to do for honors. I will front load my work in the future rather than back load because I don't enjoy the trepidation that comes with, "what if I bombed?!".

My "cram week" consisted of maybe 30 hours of actual work... maybe. Diligent weeks consisted of 20-30 with watching lectures. Cram week I just reviewed notes intensely on my own. I worked harder for 1 or 2 semesters in undergrad, but that's because the concepts were more difficult in advanced chemistry than in medical school.

 

[Toffey]

What I was really saying is that I don't consider a BA or BS in general biology to be a real STEM degree. Various other natural science degrees like microbio & immuno, neuroscience, molecular genetics, physics sub-disciplines, chemical engingeering, etc are a different matter.

This is just my opinion.

I've thought about this before. I agree that Bio is not STEM, I've seen enough bio students struggle with the simplest math and physics concepts, which I think are integral to any hard science.

I am on the opposite, I understand math and physics far better than I do memorization-based stuff like ochem and bio. Do you really think such people would fare better in med school? I'm referring to your other post, btw
It seems like there is a lot of bio and memorization involved in med school.

 

[Scottpilot]

OP, I had the same anxiety coming into med school. As for me, I'm a non-traditional student who graduated in 2007 with a BA in Psychology. Prior to being accepted, I took a smattering of upper division bio classes, though only 2 at a time, so nothing strenuous. So far I am surviving my 1st block of med school.

On that note, strongly consider med schools with P/NP for pre-clinical years. It will make your life so much less stressful during your transition to being a medical student (after all P=MD).

Also, it doesn't really matter what you do to prepare for medical school (save taking 7-8 undergrad classes at a time). In regards to immuno, micro, or other bio-related STEM majors, the training you get in those compared to medical school are very different. The is someone in my class who has both an MS in immunology and a PhD in Biology with an emphasis in cancer stem cell research who was struggling to pass most of the classes (they are now passing everything). The problem; this person was trained to analyze everything down to the smallest detail. In med school, you just don't have that kind of time.

 

[Scottpilot]

The prevailing wisdom I see over in allo is that you can't possibly memorize everything, so it's best to figure out other ways to succeed. But I can't really discuss any of that, since I haven't actually started M1 yet.

There are people that do well, and I'm sure not all of them are the ones that were 99th percentile on the MCAT. Really, I think OP just wants reassurance that it's not impossible (or even unlikely) to pass medical school. And I think the best signs of that are the low attrition rates at US schools.

Plus, the attrition rate is mostly due to non-academic reasons. According to the AAMC, the attrition rate due to academic reasons was around 1.4%

 

[giantswing]

Don't think because you have to study that you are not smart. I made that mistake years ago. Most of the time, working your butt off is going to get you better results than being brilliant, esp on the floors.

 

[Jabbed]

I've thought about this before. I agree that Bio is not STEM, I've seen enough bio students struggle with the simplest math and physics concepts, which I think are integral to any hard science.

I am on the opposite, I understand math and physics far better than I do memorization-based stuff like ochem and bio. Do you really think such people would fare better in med school? I'm referring to your other post, btw
It seems like there is a lot of bio and memorization involved in med school.

Ochem is extremely esoteric and, in my opinion, not at all a predictor of med school success. When you say that you understand math/physics better than ochem/bio, I assume that you're alluding to the old "conceptual understanding is more important than memorization" paradigm. By and large I agree with this, but just know that there will be a great deal of information that requires memorization. They best analogy that I can come up with is learning how to read. Try as you might, there's no logical way to associate the letter B with the "buh" sound. Some amount of memorization is required before you can start putting words together or stringing them into sentences. Once you pass that hurdle though, many other things are relatively logical connections that make sense given what you've already memorized. Eventually lots of information becomes passively retained and you can pretend that it was all understanding and required no memorization in the first place.

I will say though that I don't think most MD/DO programs will take great strides to integrate real math or physics into the curriculum, even if it would benefit understanding. i.e. there will be no discussion of cable theory when you learn about neuronal action potentials. If you have an interest, I really do think that it's worth looking at the physics behind the physiology, as it does give you a greater understanding of mechanisms and makes it feel more like learning than memorization. One quick but great example that I can think of is pressure gradients in aneurysms. We basically covered the general idea that atherosclerosis can cause aneurysms and that aneurysms can rupture. What we did not cover is that blood flow through a closed vessel is constant, so any dilatation in the mid-length will increase the cross-sectional area and decrease the fluid velocity to maintain flow. In accordance with Bernoulli's principle, the decrease in velocity is met with an increase in pressure, which increases wall tension. Vessel integrity is already compromised from the three layer degradation. So now you start to see this great positive feedback loop whereby atherosclerosis damages the vessel wall causing it to dilate, which increases the pressure, which causes it to dilate further, which damages the vessel wall further, etc, etc, until the aneurysm finally ruptures. Again, none of this was really covered in my course, but I think that it's very interesting and worth learning all the same.

 

[IncognitoGuy]

In medical school, you don't have a lot of extracurriculars expected of you, which frees up a lot of time to study. In terms of free time (that is, time I have all to myself), I definitely have more now than in Undergrad. However, that time is spent studying for the most part, but it does mean my schedule can be a lot more flexible if, for instance I have an intramural game to do, or if I want to go out to dinner instead of cooking at home, etc.

Much of medical school is time management and persistence, and balancing the two so you stay sane. Schools have plenty of experience picking people they know who will succeed, and while undergrad GPA is important, it's one part of the whole. Just keep working hard and developing good habits that you can rely on in the future.

 

[pmarank]

I got through undergrad with a great work ethic. I'm a C student in med school.

Hey circulus, just curious, what do you mean by great work ethic in undergrad? Could you estimate how much you studied everyday in undergrad and compare that to how much you are studying now in med school? Even being a C student in med school is quite an accomplishment. I know people in med school that wish they could consistently pass every class with a C.

 

[Lysinee]

Study smarter not harder.

 

[Lysinee]

Much of medical school is time management and persistence, and balancing the two so you stay sane. Schools have plenty of experience picking people they know who will succeed, and while undergrad GPA is important, it's one part of the whole. Just keep working hard and developing good habits that you can rely on in the future.

+1

You can't predict your med school success on college GPA.

 

[savithramma]

idk, if you ask me a lot of medical school students can be disconnected from the difficulties of it, since you'll always run into a large portion that skip lectures and watch them online at 3x the speed. That's not the way most normal people can study and to think anyone can fit that mold is just false.

I'd expect it to be extremely difficult, especially at first, and take a lot of hard work like anything else. Undergrad isn't a great predictor and neither is the mcat.

 

[WingedOx]

I think I studied harder in undergrad than I did in med school.

Conversely, I studied way more the first year of med school than the second (exception being boards month) even with more material to learn.

You learn quickly how to understand what's important to know and what isn't. Don't ask me how that happens, but it does.

 

[pmarank]

I think I studied harder in undergrad than I did in med school.

Conversely, I studied way more the first year of med school than the second (exception being boards month) even with more material to learn.

You learn quickly how to understand what's important to know and what isn't. Don't ask me how that happens, but it does.

A lot of ChemE/Physcis/etc. majors seem to say the same thing. Were you some type of engineering major or work a job/crazy ECs?

 

[WingedOx]

Not really, just your standard bio major... but when I studied I studied hard. re-wrote all my notes after every lecture, etc. Took every saturday off from studying in undergrad... something I probably could have gotten away with in med school.

 

[Lake Wobegon]

That's nice to hear. I guess I am hoping that I'll be able to measure up. The fact that we work hard in undergrad, and the amount of work is only heightening as we enter med school, I'm hoping it translates into continued success. Not sure because I haven't gotten to that stage, but still, reassuring after hearing what you all had to say.

I'm a sophmore too, and I think it's great that you're looking ahead to the future, on top of already having a strong study habits. I admit, I'm still working on my work ethic and getting ok grades (~3.5 GPA). I wish I had your A's, hahaha.

My advice is to keep the future in mind, but not stress out too much over it. You'll be fine. Just keep doing what you do.

 

[x1240tony]

Ochem is extremely esoteric and, in my opinion, not at all a predictor of med school success. When you say that you understand math/physics better than ochem/bio, I assume that you're alluding to the old "conceptual understanding is more important than memorization" paradigm. By and large I agree with this, but just know that there will be a great deal of information that requires memorization. They best analogy that I can come up with is learning how to read. Try as you might, there's no logical way to associate the letter B with the "buh" sound. Some amount of memorization is required before you can start putting words together or stringing them into sentences. Once you pass that hurdle though, many other things are relatively logical connections that make sense given what you've already memorized. Eventually lots of information becomes passively retained and you can pretend that it was all understanding and required no memorization in the first place.

I will say though that I don't think most MD/DO programs will take great strides to integrate real math or physics into the curriculum, even if it would benefit understanding. i.e. there will be no discussion of cable theory when you learn about neuronal action potentials. If you have an interest, I really do think that it's worth looking at the physics behind the physiology, as it does give you a greater understanding of mechanisms and makes it feel more like learning than memorization. One quick but great example that I can think of is pressure gradients in aneurysms. We basically covered the general idea that atherosclerosis can cause aneurysms and that aneurysms can rupture. What we did not cover is that blood flow through a closed vessel is constant, so any dilatation in the mid-length will increase the cross-sectional area and decrease the fluid velocity to maintain flow. In accordance with Bernoulli's principle, the decrease in velocity is met with an increase in pressure, which increases wall tension. Vessel integrity is already compromised from the three layer degradation. So now you start to see this great positive feedback loop whereby atherosclerosis damages the vessel wall causing it to dilate, which increases the pressure, which causes it to dilate further, which damages the vessel wall further, etc, etc, until the aneurysm finally ruptures. Again, none of this was really covered in my course, but I think that it's very interesting and worth learning all the same.

Where would you find additional resources to learn in-depth like that?

 

[Jabbed]

Where would you find additional resources to learn in-depth like that?

You'll come across the big-named textbooks in med school that provide more detail than most people would want to know, especially in physio and path but also in pharm, biochem, etc. Organ systems-specific books are generally fantastic as they'll take a few pages to explain the more nuanced concepts while providing more thorough references. Taking the course material as a starting point so you have a baseline familiarity, using these texts is a great way to appreciate the finer details. I'm also really fond of the EBM databases (UpToDate, Dynamed), which you'll be given access to but aren't super hyped up by faculty during the preclinical years, as they'll blatantly present the salient clinical applications of basic science information while referring you to resources that are better equipped to explain the details.

In short, there are plenty of resources with which you will become familiar. I think the best thing that you can do for yourself though is to start med school with a firm game plan on how to handle all these resources while staying organized. The first day or two I am usually too burnt out from the previous exam to seriously study, so I'll normally just chill and consult SDN, amazon reviews, etc to find the books/web resources that I plan to use for that block.

 

[x1240tony]

You'll come across the big-named textbooks in med school that provide more detail than most people would want to know, especially in physio and path but also in pharm, biochem, etc. Organ systems-specific books are generally fantastic as they'll take a few pages to explain the more nuanced concepts while providing more thorough references. Taking the course material as a starting point so you have a baseline familiarity, using these texts is a great way to appreciate the finer details. I'm also really fond of the EBM databases (UpToDate, Dynamed), which you'll be given access to but aren't super hyped up by faculty during the preclinical years, as they'll blatantly present the salient clinical applications of basic science information while referring you to resources that are better equipped to explain the details.

In short, there are plenty of resources with which you will become familiar. I think the best thing that you can do for yourself though is to start med school with a firm game plan on how to handle all these resources while staying organized. The first day or two I am usually too burnt out from the previous exam to seriously study, so I'll normally just chill and consult SDN, amazon reviews, etc to find the books/web resources that I plan to use for that block.

Awesome. I'm a type of person that buys all the textbooks on the syllabus and reads them all haha. I had like 3 or 4 books per class, expensive but I enjoyed reading them.

 

[Jabbed]

Awesome. I'm a type of person that buys all the textbooks on the syllabus and reads them all haha. I had like 3 or 4 books per class, expensive but I enjoyed reading them.

Caveat: by and large the best books are unlikely to appear on your syllabus. This is mostly due to the fact that your instructors are PhD's. Ironically, in med school you have to go out of your way to gain clinical knowledge.

 

[pyrrion89]

Undergrads know they need A-level work to get into med school; what they often forget is you don't need A-level work to get through med school. It may be that the same amount of effort that got you that A in undergrad will now get you a C in med school. But C = MD. But even that is not necessarily true. You might excel in med school too. I wouldn't worry.