Help. Expelled - Misconduct

[dexterthe]

Hi

I am in an bad situtation.

I began med school in canada in 2008.

I did fine. I skipped a few classes here and there, but passed each year. I wrote the canadian licensing exam MCCQE in my final year and passed. I had a residency lined up.

In fourth year I applied to graduate after completing my electives. I was a week short of the required amount to graduate so technically I was not able to. But the school offered to graduate me and I remained silent. I was so close to graduation I did not think it would matter.

Two days before graduation the school contacted me to inform me that I was being investigated for fraud.

I was investigated, found guilty, and based upon the few absences I had in 2010, they decided to dismiss me.

It was awful. I lawyered up. Appealed. Failed. Appealed at senate level. Failed. My lawyer informs me that there are no legal options.

The school threw the book at me for my first and only breach of professionalism. Worse, on what was supposed to be the greatest day of my life, turned out to be the worst. And I have lost my career and 7 years of my life. I agree, what I did was bad. But this was too much.

I am looking to complete my education in the carribean. I understand that some schools will accept transfers.

I am not sure of what they will think of my transcript which now reads ' Expelled - Disciplinary'

Do I have any hope. Any schools that are more likely to be compassionate?

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[peteB]

I'm confused, how did you end up a week short? What exactly did you not show up to?

 

[HopeTo99]

I don't get it?

 

[link2swim06]

Is this absence thing specific to Canadian schools? If a "few absences" prevented US med students from graduating we would have no doctors.

I suspect there is more to this story? Maybe you filled out the graduation form certifying you completed coursework you didn't?

 

[Lunasly]

Fraud What the heck did you do?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Pretty glad I don't go to a Canadian school...I probably have enough absences to fail an entire class.

But really it sounds like there's something you're leaving out. It doesn't make sense that they would accuse you of fraud for not having completed coursework (unless you filled out something saying you had like a previous poster said).

 

[Lokhtar]

Pretty glad I don't go to a Canadian school...I probably have enough absences to fail an entire class.

But really it sounds like there's something you're leaving out. It doesn't make sense that they would accuse you of fraud for not having completed coursework (unless you filled out something saying you had like a previous poster said).

I don't think he means like lectures - I think he means a clinical elective or something. Like he did seven weeks of Surgery instead of the required ten and then said he had done ten.

That being the case, I am not sure if you have any options, unfortunately.

 

[Smurfette]

To be honest, your history of med school dismissal may not prevent you from getting into a caribbean school (it would prevent you from getting into US schools; I can't speak for Canadian schools), but it could cause serious difficulties with finding a residency program and/or getting licensed in the US (and quite possibly Canada). You will have to disclose this every time you apply for a job, license, malpractice, etc. Especially when it's due to professionalism issues, it's much more difficult to justify what happened satisfactorily enough for people to 'take a risk' on hiring you...(as opposed to someone dismissed for failing courses who had a major illness or tragedy, for example, and then got a second chance and passed). A lot may also depend on exactly what your goals are as far as where and what specialty you are interested in; certain locations and fields will be more forgiving than others. Your options may be limited depending on your interests, so make sure you factor that into any decisions you make before you get stuck with a big debt.

 

[dexterthe]

Fraud What the heck did you do?

Fraud was what the school alleged. Legally that is not true as there was no real damage caused.

It was the end of med school. I was tired and excited at the same time. In a moment of weakness I was negligent about the facts regarding my attendance in an elective. I went to 2 out of 3 weeks of an elective. Was planning to do the rest in the summer and graduate late but the school offered to graduate me so I foolishly didnt bring it up.

They used my absences I accrued in second year and made a case that I had a pattern of behavior of un professionalism.

Apparently the school can get away with this legally and now Im left to deal with it.

I hope that I can at least finish my md. in the carribean. Although i dont know which schools are more likely to accept me or what to tell them.

 

[bobow98]

Fraud was what the school alleged. Legally that is not true as there was no real damage caused.

It was the end of med school. I was tired and excited at the same time. In a moment of weakness I was negligent about the facts regarding my attendance in an elective. I went to 2 out of 3 weeks of an elective. Was planning to do the rest in the summer and graduate late but the school offered to graduate me so I foolishly didnt bring it up.

They used my absences I accrued in second year and made a case that I had a pattern of behavior of un professionalism.

Apparently the school can get away with this legally and now Im left to deal with it.

I hope that I can at least finish my md. in the carribean. Although i dont know which schools are more likely to accept me or what to tell them.

This doesn't make any sense, why would your school intentionally want to harm you when you are already 99% of the way there? If you were 1 week short I'm sure the school could have done something to get that week in, and it could just have been a mix-up of some sort. Are we getting the full story here?

 

[dexterthe]

To be honest, your history of med school dismissal may not prevent you from getting into a caribbean school (it would prevent you from getting into US schools; I can't speak for Canadian schools), but it could cause serious difficulties with finding a residency program and/or getting licensed in the US (and quite possibly Canada). You will have to disclose this every time you apply for a job, license, malpractice, etc. Especially when it's due to professionalism issues, it's much more difficult to justify what happened satisfactorily enough for people to 'take a risk' on hiring you...(as opposed to someone dismissed for failing courses who had a major illness or tragedy, for example, and then got a second chance and passed). A lot may also depend on exactly what your goals are as far as where and what specialty you are interested in; certain locations and fields will be more forgiving than others. Your options may be limited depending on your interests, so make sure you factor that into any decisions you make before you get stuck with a big debt.

Yeah I had worried about residency too. Fortunately I have already written the licensing exam which will make things easier for me as an IMG. There are places in canada desperate for family doctors that usually bind them return of service agreements, so I might have a chance. My profession of choice is rural family medicine anyway.

But thats too far ahead for me to plan for now. I at least want my title back, if for anything to apply it to another field.

 

[dexterthe]

This doesn't make any sense, why would your school intentionally want to harm you when you are already 99% of the way there? If you were 1 week short I'm sure the school could have done something to get that week in, and it could just have been a mix-up of some sort. Are we getting the full story here?

I think that was part of the problem. There was no incentive to do that as i wouldnt have required a lengthy enrollment.

Also, I think they were embarrassed that they had some responsibility for what happened.

Finally, I think there is some sick side of them that get their kicks from expelling students near the end. If you read legal literature, this comes up often. My case was by far the closest to graduation that has ever occurred.

 

[88845]

I think that was part of the problem. There was no incentive to do that as i wouldnt have required a lengthy enrollment.

Also, I think they were embarrassed that they had some responsibility for what happened.

Finally, I think there is some sick side of them that get their kicks from expelling students near the end. If you read legal literature, this comes up often. My case was by far the closest to graduation that has ever occurred.

I wouldn't wish what you've just gone through upon my worst enemy. It all just seems overly vindictive and malicious.

 

[viper930]

My BS meter is going off like a Geiger counter over a solid block of uranium. I fail to see how any medical school anywhere would do something this harsh for no good reason. Even if they did, if it's as unfair as you claim it is, a formal legal appeal would have straightened things out. My suspicion is that OP lied to his school and is now lying to SDN and conveniently leaving out details of his absences from rotations. I'm pretty glad that even if OP gets into some crummy Caribbean medical school he still won't land a residency spot in North America.

 

[peteB]

I'm pretty glad that even if OP gets into some crummy Caribbean medical school he still won't land a residency spot in North America.

Hey that's not nice. We don't know what exactly happened. Innocent until proven guilty here.

 

[IlDestriero]

Also, I think they were embarrassed that they had some responsibility for what happened.

Finally, I think there is some sick side of them that get their kicks from expelling students near the end.

1. You falsifying some paperwork saying you were complete when you were not is entirely your fault. They had a responsibility to discover your fraud and they did. And they acted on it.

2. The second quoted sentence is the dumbest thing I've seen on SDN in some time, and people write dumb things all the time on here. The school wants you to succeed, EVERY school wants it's students to succeed. Even the shady for profit schools want you to succeed so that they can advertise you're success. They also want to insure they they do not graduate students who have issues that would impact their ability to provide safe patient care, like a pattern of unprofessional behavior. This incident will keep you from matching into any legitimate residency program. No director will look at you. You were dismissed from medical school immediately prior to graduation. That's how strongly the school felt that you do not possess the traits required to become a physician.
There obviously is more to your pattern of unprofessional behavior, though I could see a school expelling you for attempting to falsify that you had completed your required electives when you knowingly had not. Its so ridiculous it's almost unbelievable that someone would try to do this, but people do baffling things every day. I can only hope that you're a troll.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Pretty glad I don't go to a Canadian school...I probably have enough absences to fail an entire class.

But really it sounds like there's something you're leaving out. It doesn't make sense that they would accuse you of fraud for not having completed coursework (unless you filled out something saying you had like a previous poster said).

I havent been to lecture in weeks....

 

[SpecterGT260]

I don't think he means like lectures - I think he means a clinical elective or something. Like he did seven weeks of Surgery instead of the required ten and then said he had done ten.

That being the case, I am not sure if you have any options, unfortunately.

Who would be dumb enough to skip clinical rotations?.........

 

[Siggy]

Who would be dumb enough to skip clinical rotations?.........

The OP apparently...

In fourth year I applied to graduate after completing my electives. I was a week short of the required amount to graduate so technically I was not able to. But the school offered to graduate me and I remained silent. I was so close to graduation I did not think it would matter.

 

[pkwraith]

Well, Dexter, you could try something like Criminal Forensics, maybe blood splatter analysis or something.

 

[dexterthe]

My BS meter is going off like a Geiger counter over a solid block of uranium. I fail to see how any medical school anywhere would do something this harsh for no good reason. Even if they did, if it's as unfair as you claim it is, a formal legal appeal would have straightened things out. My suspicion is that OP lied to his school and is now lying to SDN and conveniently leaving out details of his absences from rotations. I'm pretty glad that even if OP gets into some crummy Caribbean medical school he still won't land a residency spot in North America.

Yeah I had thought that the schools were legally bound to be fair too. My family and I are stunned that this could happen.

I'm not here trolling or looking for sympathy. I just want some opinions on what to do for carribean/other medical schools. First and foremost, I just want my degree. Residency may or may not come later.

But I will say a few things about University discipline:

1. Charter rights (or the american equivalent), do not apply to University Students. So the differences in treatment between students is allowed.
2. Students are entitled to 'due process' - In my case they corrupted the process severely early on. They didn't allow me to present evidence, they presented evidence in my absence. They didnt let my lawyer speak. But then they 'cured' it all by hearing it 'de novo' at the senate level. However, I was at a horrible disadvantage explaining absences and a 67% i took on a test 3 years ago to an english prof and a pharmacist. But the due process means that they expelled me legally, no matter what the circumstances were.
3. Universities are allowed to make mistakes when punishing students. This is called 'deference'. They have lots of deference because of some crappy supreme court ruling in the 50's. Errors in law can be made.

So be warned. Keep your nose clean. Don't piss off your teachers. Don't look for compassion in their ranks - its a business relationship.

 

[Gither]

Yeah I had thought that the schools were legally bound to be fair too. My family and I are stunned that this could happen.

I'm not here trolling or looking for sympathy. I just want some opinions on what to do for carribean/other medical schools. First and foremost, I just want my degree. Residency may or may not come later.

But I will say a few things about University discipline:

1. Charter rights (or the american equivalent), do not apply to University Students. So the differences in treatment between students is allowed.
2. Students are entitled to 'due process' - In my case they corrupted the process severely early on. They didn't allow me to present evidence, they presented evidence in my absence. They didnt let my lawyer speak. But then they 'cured' it all by hearing it 'de novo' at the senate level. However, I was at a horrible disadvantage explaining absences and a 67% i took on a test 3 years ago to an english prof and a pharmacist. But the due process means that they expelled me legally, no matter what the circumstances were.
3. Universities are allowed to make mistakes when punishing students. This is called 'deference'. They have lots of deference because of some crappy supreme court ruling in the 50's. Errors in law can be made.

So be warned. Keep your nose clean. Don't piss off your teachers. Don't look for compassion in their ranks - its a business relationship.

So you didn't do something,.. said you did... and then got caught? Sounds fair.

 

[swamprat]

I feel like we're missing part of the story the penalty seems kinda harsh for just missing a week at the end of ms4.. I've heard ppl in ms4 take days off for no reason.. Whether that's right or not is another story but expelled/no degree? What absences when u were preclinical ?

 

[theseeker4]

I feel like we're missing part of the story the penalty seems kinda harsh for just missing a week at the end of ms4.. I've heard ppl in ms4 take days off for no reason.. Whether that's right or not is another story but expelled/no degree? What absences when u were preclinical ?

Sounds like the penalty was for applying for graduation/claiming to have completed all requirements when he knew he hadn't. If it was as simple as he had some absences that he couldn't graduate until he made up, I am sure they would not have actively pursued and expelled him.

 

[ArcGurren]

I feel like we're missing part of the story the penalty seems kinda harsh for just missing a week at the end of ms4.. I've heard ppl in ms4 take days off for no reason.. Whether that's right or not is another story but expelled/no degree? What absences when u were preclinical ?

I agree which is why I can't agree that the story sounds completely legit.

OP please provide ALL the details of this; you've got to be holding back. I don't know of any allopathic school in the US (which I can't imagine being that different from Canada) which would ever do something like that with just one infraction.

 

[IlDestriero]

I agree which is why I can't agree that the story sounds completely legit.

OP please provide ALL the details of this; you've got to be holding back. I don't know of any allopathic school in the US (which I can't imagine being that different from Canada) which would ever do something like that with just one infraction.

UVA wouldn't think twice about expelling him for a single honor code violation. (lying) Especially one of this magnitude.

 

[munchymanRX]

What I'm hearing is

1) OP had not yet completed his graduation requirements, but filed paperwork asserting he had done so

2) There was no written acknowledgement from the school saying this was ok

3) OP understood the school's policy on graduation.

Speculation about rotation attendance and dishonesty aside, this just plain wasn't smart. Never EVER give a bureaucracy the benefit of the doubt and take their word for something. Always, always, always get it in writing.

 

[yuiness]

What exactly does "the school offered to graduate me" mean? Did an administrator/adviser tell you that you could graduate? Was it just an option that popped up on the registrar's website? Did you get some sort of documentation?

 

[ArcGurren]

UVA wouldn't think twice about expelling him for a single honor code violation. (lying) Especially one of this magnitude.

He obviously did lie but I feel like it would be hard to prove that he actually lied. It's kind of hard to go from misfiling or filling out a form improperly to FRAUD.

 

[link2swim06]

UVA wouldn't think twice about expelling him for a single honor code violation. (lying) Especially one of this magnitude.

I still feel there is more to this story. Its hard to prove intent with ONE mistake. People can be idiots and fill out forms wrong/not understand rules (with no fraudulent intent).

There is a part of this story we are missing.

 

[Noyoudinit]

Canada, not even once.

 

[bobow98]

OP, I think you should take this to court. REAL court. That allows your lawyer to speak, and allows you to present your evidence.

Once you do this, they may want to settle rather than be on national TV or something.

 

[pipe dream]

OP, I think you should take this to court. REAL court. That allows your lawyer to speak, and allows you to present your evidence.

Once you do this, they may want to settle rather than be on national TV or something.

Why would they be on national TV? This isn't evn a legit news local news story let alone a national one. And why does anyone think a student who admits to intentionally falsifying a university document should be allowed to graduate? Shaking my head on this one. He lied, he did so intentionally, not as a mistake and he STILL claims the university is partly to blame for his deception. The school was 100% right.

 

[Instatewaiter]

UVA wouldn't think twice about expelling him for a single honor code violation. (lying) Especially one of this magnitude.

People talk about the "single sanction" at UVA as if it for any lying they expell you but really it has to be obvious and eggregious for them to enforce it. I have seen first hand where someone obviously lied and because it wasnt that bad they didn't get expelled

 

[IlDestriero]

People talk about the "single sanction" at UVA as if it for any lying they expell you but really it has to be obvious and eggregious for them to enforce it. I have seen first hand where someone obviously lied and because it wasnt that bad they didn't get expelled

Something tells me the OP attempting to graduate while knowingly having not completed the required coursework for the degree qualifies.

 

[YiSheng]

What exactly does "the school offered to graduate me" mean? Did an administrator/adviser tell you that you could graduate? Was it just an option that popped up on the registrar's website? Did you get some sort of documentation?

I was wondering abut the same thing too.

 

[foley12]

I am not even sure how this is possible. When you apply for graduation you go through registrar. They have your transcript and can see if you fulfilled the requirements or not. At my school you also have to have your fourth year schedule approved by the registrar to ensure that you will have enough required credits to graduate.

 

[cdndvm]

Fraud was what the school alleged. Legally that is not true as there was no real damage caused.

It was the end of med school. I was tired and excited at the same time. In a moment of weakness I was negligent about the facts regarding my attendance in an elective. I went to 2 out of 3 weeks of an elective. Was planning to do the rest in the summer and graduate late but the school offered to graduate me so I foolishly didnt bring it up.

They used my absences I accrued in second year and made a case that I had a pattern of behavior of un professionalism.

Apparently the school can get away with this legally and now Im left to deal with it.

I hope that I can at least finish my md. in the carribean. Although i dont know which schools are more likely to accept me or what to tell them.

What university was this?? I'm shocked this didn't make the news.... (canadian news is weak, i admit...)

 

[MedicineDoc]

I suspect if you roll with the punches, try to avoid the lawyers/legal action, own up to at least some responsibility with appearing sincere somebody is going to think expelling you was stupid and give you a shot at medical school and someone else at residency. Not everyone thinks draconian punishments are appropriate and in line with their philosophical beliefs. We had a third yr resident booted out of our residency program in family medicine for forging signatures (attending signatures) on deliveries. He was considered a capable resident with a good knowledge base. It took him awhile but he ended up in another program and I'm pretty sure he has graduated by now and is practicing somewhere. I think he lost a yr. Maybe it was two. Chances at Redemption are part of some people's core beliefs with some of it rooted in religion.

 

[VenusinFurs]

It's not adding up to me.

In the US it actually costs schools money to educate students, even given the ridiculous amount of tuition they charge. I can not imagine Candian medical education would be any less expensive for the government. US schools have a large vested interest in making sure students eventually pass; I have classmates who have repeated more than one year. I'm really not buying that there's a school out in Canada that would waste an entire medical education just to get their jollies out of dinging someone for academic dishonesty or whatever.

The whole "I didn't go to a week of rotation cuz I didn't feel like it and figured I could make it up after I graduate" thing isn't making much sense to me either. What kind of person wants to go back to school after they have graduated. Why not just show up and phone it in just enough to pass?

 

[MedicineDoc]

It's not adding up to me.

In the US it actually costs schools money to educate students, even given the ridiculous amount of tuition they charge. I can not imagine Candian medical education would be any less expensive for the government. US schools have a large vested interest in making sure students eventually pass; I have classmates who have repeated more than one year. I'm really not buying that there's a school out in Canada that would waste an entire medical education just to get their jollies out of dinging someone for academic dishonesty or whatever.

The whole "I didn't go to a week of rotation cuz I didn't feel like it and figured I could make it up after I graduate" thing isn't making much sense to me either. What kind of person wants to go back to school after they have graduated. Why not just show up and phone it in just enough to pass?

That kind of stuff does happen depending on the personality types
in authority. There was a senior med student at my medical school who was thrown out before graduation for a discovered underage drinking charge that wasn't reported from a high school party where everyone there was charged. He had already been accepted to a residency in psych. I'm sure he probably got to finish somewhere but probably lost a yr. We had an attending in residency that probably would have been trying to boot someone from every other class if not held in check by the director. That attending was considered a pain in the ass by both residents and faculty and probably would have been gone if they had someone to replace him. Academics hides some messed up personalities and impractical belief systems. Cost to Tax payers and society not being a factor in some of these douche bags judgements.

 

[SpecterGT260]

That kind of stuff does happen depending on the personality types
in authority. There was a senior med student at my medical school who was thrown out before graduation for a discovered underage drinking charge that wasn't reported from a high school party where everyone there was charged. He had already been accepted to a residency in psych. I'm sure he probably got to finish somewhere but probably lost a yr. We had an attending in residency that probably would have been trying to boot someone from every other class if not held in check by the director. He probably would have been gone if they had someone to replace him.

How far back was that? I feel like the school could get their pants sued off for that.... the application for med schools do not include expunged charges so there wouldn't be a breach of any contract

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[MedicineDoc]

How far back was that? I feel like the school could get their pants sued off for that.... the application for med schools do not include expunged charges so there wouldn't be a breach of any contract

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

I don't know the answer to that. Suing is often a poor choice when it is easier to roll with the punches, hold your nose and part ways in medicine. If they don't get you one way they can get you another way just as you may be able to cause trouble. The trick is to part ways as professionally and amicably as possible with both realizing that it is not in either parties interest to burn everything to the ground. You dont want to be known as someone who calls in a bunch of lawyers as it may spook any future associates. There was a Hospitalist who was let go from the previous hospital I worked at who brought in the lawyers after being let go supposedly for performing procedures without being privelged for those procedures. As a result the director instructed that no letters of recommendation be given as there was an active lawsuit. Future employers are going to want 3 letters from the previous place of employment. In a situation like that you want the least amount of drama possible. Often it is possible to make something positive out of a bad situation and salvage an amicable parting of ways with both sides ablt to save at least some face.

 

[VenusinFurs]

God that's terrible. That's like some "Evil doctor out of Patch Adams"-level dickery there.

 

[MedicineDoc]

...

 

[SpecterGT260]

I don't know the answer to that. Suing is often a poor choice when it is easier to roll with the punches, hold your nose and part ways in medicine. If they don't get you one way they can get you another way just as you may be able to cause trouble. The trick is to part ways as professionally and amicably as possible with both realizing that it is not in either parties interest to burn everything to the ground. You dont want to be known as someone who calls in a bunch of lawyers as it may spook any future associates. There was a Hospitalist who was let go from the previous hospital I worked at who brought in the lawyers after being let go. As a result the director instructed that no letters of recommendation be given as there was an active lawsuit. Future employers are going to want 3 letters from the previous place of employment. In a situation like that you want the least amount of drama possible. Often it is possible to make something positive out of a bad situation and salvage an amicable parting of ways with both sides ablt to save at least some face.

that is true. But I am not aware of too many medical schools that will take you as a 4th year and grant you a degree after expulsion in the current atmosphere. Today something like that would result in being good and screwed... unless I missed something somewhere.

 

[VenusinFurs]

that is true. But I am not aware of too many medical schools that will take you as a 4th year and grant you a degree after expulsion in the current atmosphere. Today something like that would result in being good and screwed... unless I missed something somewhere.

I think it would also depend on what the rules were about having to report past convictions and stuff at that time. If this was something that happened in high school but had been expunged there would be no obligation to report it now.

Also it's always possible another school would at least be willing to hear you out on why you got expelled? IDK.

 

[VenusinFurs]

...

I will admit I paid very little attention to Patch Adams.

 

[DocRooster]

Schadenfreude at its finest.


Every playground has its resident sociopath(s) and their loopholes. Best recourse is an appropriate exit strategy. Mine is moving back to Skopje, where "honor code" still means a well-fed Kalashnikov. Debt forgiveness is a plane ticket away, where the men and women haven't yet switched places...
Sure beats a thick rope and a tall tree.

 

[Der Kaiser]

I know this is an old thread, but the truth behind this story has come out in Canadian news and I thought it might illuminate the confusion that is this thread:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...after-caught-forging-mds-signatures-1.2496548