Help me help someone with ivermectin

[PainDrain]

And the vaccine effectively does all other 3 things you mention there. Do you not think the vaccine is effective?

I don’t think he feels the vaccine is effective and also can fathom why (herd immunity and decreased transmission) you vaccinate all potential sources of spread.

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[vector2]

Nobody who actually followed the data thought your first 'goalpost' was going to happen though many on the right seemed to think that was the goal for some reason. And the vaccine effectively does all other 3 things you mention there. Do you not think the vaccine is effective?

Doesn't matter how many times you tell antivaxxers that the FDA EUA and authorization were based on the vaccine preventing disease and death. They will continue to insist falsely that the vaccines were initially supposed to be some eradicating panacea....even though no one ever said that.

 

[gasdoc77]

I don’t think he feels the vaccine is effective and also can fathom why (herd immunity and decreased transmission) you vaccinate all potential sources of spread.

Including ALL animals and pets since it is zoonotic.

 

[chessknt]

Including ALL animals and pets since it is zoonotic.

Is the data that this actually poses a risk to people or is this just some talking point you heard to make pro-vaccination people seem insane?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

So that's why we also have a lot of polio, HepB and smallpox?

Are you a physician? I’m not trying to be rude, I actually don’t know. But some of your posts here make it hard to believe you went to medical school.

 

[Lawpy]

Wait is remdesivir even being used in clinical practice? I know hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin are widely condemned on here but i’m trying to understand thoughts on recommended treatments that don’t appear to be effective. Molnupiravir also seems to be pretty ineffective too

The only antiviral i’m seeing that works is Paxlovid.

 

[chessknt]

Wait is remdesivir even being used in clinical practice? I know hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin are widely condemned on here but i’m trying to understand thoughts on recommended treatments that don’t appear to be effective. Molnupiravir also seems to be pretty ineffective too

The only antiviral i’m seeing that works is Paxlovid.

Yep it is being used in clinical practice because it had fda authorization and Idsa guidelines recommending for use. The ability for providers to tailor care outside of rigid parameters died when the crazy train took over and everyone suddenly became an expert on viral ards. My group will do exactly what the idsa guidelines say and absolutely nothing else.

 

[gasdoc77]

Is the data that this actually poses a risk to people or is this just some talking point you heard to make pro-vaccination people seem insane?

I mean didn't it all start with a bat from the Wuhan market? In all seriousness, once the campaign for childhood vaccination is well underway, do you think there is a ZERO percent chance of a push for pet vaccinations? There is no end.

 

[nimbus]

 

[nimbus]

I mean didn't it all start with a bat from the Wuhan market? In all seriousness, once the campaign for childhood vaccination is well underway, do you think there is a ZERO percent chance of a push for pet vaccinations? There is no end.

Didn’t the campaign for childhood vaccinations start in the 1950s? AFAIK it’s well underway.

 

[dhb]

Are any of those positive sense RNA viruses?


Nobody who actually followed the data thought your first 'goalpost' was going to happen though many on the right seemed to think that was the goal for some reason. And the vaccine effectively does all other 3 things you mention there. Do you not think the vaccine is effective?

Well it was the message i was hearing, it was in fact said that covid would be eliminated at 70% of pop. vaccinated.
I think the "vaccine" might be effective for a short period in some categories of the population.
As of june 15th in Belgium 13 deaths in group age 0-24 (all with serious pre existing coditions of course) and 124 for ages 25-44 which is 1/5th of deaths from trafic accidents.
Do you think the vaccine should be mandatory for everybody and why?

 

[dhb]

You clearly don’t understand. Also, Hep B is rampant throughout the world. And we still have clusters of polio.

In highly vaccinated populations? Which was what i was refering to from my previous post.

 

[PainDrain]

Well it was the message i was hearing, it was in fact said that covid would be eliminated at 70% of pop. vaccinated.
I think the "vaccine" might be effective for a short period in some categories of the population.
As of june 15th in Belgium 13 deaths in group age 0-24 (all with serious pre existing coditions of course) and 124 for ages 25-44 which is 1/5th of deaths from trafic accidents.
Do you think the vaccine should be mandatory for everybody and why?

Again, you don’t seem to have a firm grasp of herd immunity and the use of vaccines. If you did you wouldn’t be asking about the rationale for vaccinating large segments of the population who likely won’t die from the disease.

 

[chessknt]

I mean didn't it all start with a bat from the Wuhan market? In all seriousness, once the campaign for childhood vaccination is well underway, do you think there is a ZERO percent chance of a push for pet vaccinations? There is no end.

So the answer is no then, you have no data and it was just a talking point you heard that validated your belief that vaccination is silly.

 

[dhb]

Again, you don’t seem to have a firm grasp of herd immunity and the use of vaccines. If you did you wouldn’t be asking about the rationale for vaccinating large segments of the population who likely won’t die from the disease.

 

[ChiDO]

Right. So you were wrong. And it appears from the graphs that now that Cuba does have close to 100% vaccination they are not suffering another winter wave.

Cuba will have a wave in summer, when everyone goes inside.

 

[vector2]

Cuba will have a wave in summer, when everyone goes inside.

They may have a wave of infections. I doubt they'll have a wave of hospitalizations and deaths.

 

[vector2]

Well it was the message i was hearing, it was in fact said that covid would be eliminated at 70% of pop. vaccinated.

No. The message you heard was that herd immunity may be achieved when 70-85% of the population was vaccinated (fyi the US just achieved 60% fully vaccinated a mere 2 weeks ago).

And given the content of your posts it's pretty clear you don't understand what herd immunity is, nor do you understand what the EUA and full approval of the vaccines were based upon. So I'm not surprised you're operating under the false belief that COVID "would be eliminated" by mitigation measures or the vaccines.

 

[gasdoc77]

So the answer is no then, you have no data and it was just a talking point you heard that validated your belief that vaccination is silly.

Straw man argument. Never said vaccination was silly. It's wonderful for the right population. It's arrogant and ignorant to force it upon every man, woman, and child and who knows what else with no clear firm endpoint. I might even add it is evil to rely upon fear rather than appealing with sound, consistent messaging.

Then again, much of what I read from the "doctors" on this thread is contempt, disdain, and arrogance toward patients and the population in general based upon a misconception of superiority.

 

[GassYous]

Wrong straw man. Never said vaccination was silly. It's wonderful for the right population. It's arrogant and ignorant to force it upon every man, woman, and child and who knows what else with no clear firm endpoint. I might even add it is evil to rely upon fear rather than appealing with sound, consistent messaging.

Then again, much of what I read from the "doctors" on this thread is contempt, disdain, and arrogance toward patients and the population in general based upon a misconception of superiority.

Right that's why we let people run around catching mumps and measles.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Straw man argument. Never said vaccination was silly. It's wonderful for the right population. It's arrogant and ignorant to force it upon every man, woman, and child and who knows what else with no clear firm endpoint. I might even add it is evil to rely upon fear rather than appealing with sound, consistent messaging.

Then again, much of what I read from the "doctors" on this thread is contempt, disdain, and arrogance toward patients and the population in general based upon a misconception of superiority.

If people are too stupid or ignorant to vaccinate against a deadly virus, maybe they need to be told to if they want to participate in public activities like school. Works for literally every childhood vaccine.

 

[chessknt]

Straw man argument. Never said vaccination was silly. It's wonderful for the right population. It's arrogant and ignorant to force it upon every man, woman, and child and who knows what else with no clear firm endpoint. I might even add it is evil to rely upon fear rather than appealing with sound, consistent messaging.

Then again, much of what I read from the "doctors" on this thread is contempt, disdain, and arrogance toward patients and the population in general based upon a misconception of superiority.

The straw man was applying to your own post correct?

Also “doctors”? Go **** yourself bro.

 

[vector2]

Straw man argument.

You're the one making fallacious slippery slope "well, if we have to vaccinate kids, what's next, pets??????" arguments.

He asked you to provide evidence that animal vectors are a significant factor in the continuation of this pandemic. You haven't provided any.

 

[nimbus]

 

[gasdoc77]

The straw man was applying to your own post correct?

Also “doctors”? Go **** yourself bro.

A little insecure? That would certainly explain this "ask no questions, respect my authority" attitude in some of the younger generation (with just enough knowledge to be dangerous).

A secure physician/scientist encourages and even welcomes questions, alternative ideas, and PERSONALIZED care. You protocolized, one size fits all approach is lazy and shows lack in critical thinking/understanding.

 

[Stank811]

I don’t think he feels the vaccine is effective and also can fathom why (herd immunity and decreased transmission) you vaccinate all potential sources of spread.

I agree the vaccinations are good in that it does relieve the burden on the hospitals since it reduces severity. But I also want to point out that it doesn’t prevent you from getting covid and transmitting the virus which is why I don’t understand the push to vaccinate children who likely won’t get sick

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

A little insecure? That would certainly explain this "ask no questions, respect my authority" attitude in some of the younger generation (with just enough knowledge to be dangerous).

A secure physician/scientist encourages and even welcomes questions, alternative ideas, and PERSONALIZED care. You protocolized, one size fits all approach is lazy and shows lack in critical thinking/understanding.

It really scares me that you are taking care of patients with such a poor understanding of basic science concepts.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I agree the vaccinations are good in that it does relieve the burden on the hospitals since it reduces severity. But I also want to point out that it doesn’t prevent you from getting covid and transmitting the virus which is why I don’t understand the push to vaccinate children who likely won’t get sick

I’m sure the parents of the kids who have had severe disease courses or have died would be relieved to know the vaccine that could have prevented it wouldn’t matter since it was so unlikely for it to happen anyway. You guys cannot have this poor of an understanding of public health and infectious disease. It’s got to be willful.

 

[Stank811]

I’m sure the parents of the kids who have had severe disease courses or have died would be relieved to know the vaccine that could have prevented it wouldn’t matter since it was so unlikely for it to happen anyway. You guys cannot have this poor of an understanding of public health and infectious disease. It’s got to be willful.

I am not sure that is an argument to push for vaccination of all children to create herd immunity.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I agree the vaccinations are good in that it does relieve the burden on the hospitals since it reduces severity. But I also want to point out that it doesn’t prevent you from getting covid and transmitting the virus which is why I don’t understand the push to vaccinate children who likely won’t get sick

Umm, yes it does. Not 100% (no vaccine is 100%) but it definitely lowers your risk of both.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

A little insecure? That would certainly explain this "ask no questions, respect my authority" attitude in some of the younger generation (with just enough knowledge to be dangerous).

A secure physician/scientist encourages and even welcomes questions, alternative ideas, and PERSONALIZED care. You protocolized, one size fits all approach is lazy and shows lack in critical thinking/understanding.

No it doesn't.

 

[PainDrain]

I agree the vaccinations are good in that it does relieve the burden on the hospitals since it reduces severity. But I also want to point out that it doesn’t prevent you from getting covid and transmitting the virus which is why I don’t understand the push to vaccinate children who likely won’t get sick

You claim to be a physician? Statements such as the one above shows a clear lack of understanding of the basic science concepts taught in the first two years of US medical schools. I am going to go so far as to say that either you did not attend a US medical school or you are not a physician.

I’m sure the parents of the kids who have had severe disease courses or have died would be relieved to know the vaccine that could have prevented it wouldn’t matter since it was so unlikely for it to happen anyway. You guys cannot have this poor of an understanding of public health and infectious disease. It’s got to be willful.

Umm, yes it does. Not 100% (no vaccine is 100%) but it definitely lowers your risk of both.

 

[nimbus]

Seems relevant to this thread for all of us.

 

[IMGASMD]

Just restrict icu for full vaccinated patients. Have the patients pay out of pocket for any treatments that is not approved. When it can be prevented with a $ vaccine, I don’t want to subsidize $$$ for your dumb treatments. I don’t want to pay for your monoclonal antibody.

We had our kid vaccinated, to protect their grandparents, their friends who cannot get vaccinated due to legitimate medical reasons, not someone’s dumpy “religious” objections. Part of our job is to protect public at large. We are a year after vaccine being available, 800K dead, two variants spike. Neither carrot nor stick worked. Let those who wants test Darwin’s theory do their part. Why should I give a damn, I am protected, my family is protected. I feel much better knowing they won’t be dead if they catch this. I am also proud, even though they cannot be 100% being eliminated as a vector for transmission, they tried. Love thy neighbors. A few people I know who had three shots, just tested positive….. no one ended up in hospital. Looks like it’ll be another dark winter. I hope all these discussions will be digitized for the future generations, to see how dumb some of us are. Just remember when you’re dead, you can no longer argue.

We are physicians, we know better, we should be able to tell our patients right from wrong. But you all do you, I will wear my mask in the hospital and telling my loved ones do the same.

 

[Lawpy]

Just restrict icu for full vaccinated patients.

I was thinking about this for a while and was entertaining the suggestion of putting the unvaccinated in the bottom of the triage list because i hate seeing people dying from noncovid medical emergencies because hospitals are swamped with unvaccinated masses who think the vaccines are fake news or some stupid conspiracy

 

[Stank811]

You claim to be a physician? Statements such as the one above shows a clear lack of understanding of the basic science concepts taught in the first two years of US medical schools. I am going to go so far as to say that either you did not attend a US medical school or you are not a physician.

The epidemiological relevance of the COVID-19-vaccinated population is increasing

High COVID-19 vaccination rates were expected to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in populations by reducing the number of possible sources for transmission and thereby to reduce the burden of COVID-19 disease. Recent data, however, indicate that the epidemiological relevance of COVID-19...

www.thelancet.com

What is the vaccine effect on reducing transmission in the context of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant?

COVID-19 vaccines that have obtained WHO emergency use listing appear to have high efficacy against severe disease and death, but lower efficacy against non-severe infections, and emerging evidence suggests that protection against non-severe disease declines faster following vaccination than...

www.thelancet.com

 

[vector2]

The epidemiological relevance of the COVID-19-vaccinated population is increasing

High COVID-19 vaccination rates were expected to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in populations by reducing the number of possible sources for transmission and thereby to reduce the burden of COVID-19 disease. Recent data, however, indicate that the epidemiological relevance of COVID-19...

www.thelancet.com

What is the vaccine effect on reducing transmission in the context of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant?

COVID-19 vaccines that have obtained WHO emergency use listing appear to have high efficacy against severe disease and death, but lower efficacy against non-severe infections, and emerging evidence suggests that protection against non-severe disease declines faster following vaccination than...

www.thelancet.com

"Fully vaccinated individuals with delta variant infection had a faster (posterior probability >0·84) mean rate of viral load decline (0·95 log10 copies per mL per day) than did unvaccinated individuals with pre-alpha (0·69), alpha (0·82), or delta (0·79) variant infections."


Vaccination reduces the duration of high viral loads and thus the period of time where an individual is maximally contagious.

 

[PainDrain]

"Fully vaccinated individuals with delta variant infection had a faster (posterior probability >0·84) mean rate of viral load decline (0·95 log10 copies per mL per day) than did unvaccinated individuals with pre-alpha (0·69), alpha (0·82), or delta (0·79) variant infections."


Vaccination reduces the duration of high viral loads and thus the period of time where an individual is maximally contagious.

Thank you Vector, I was just about to post this. Again, another major reason we vaccinate against disease and something learned early in medical school.

Stank811 appears to be under the assumption or making claims that a vaccine is 100% affective at preventing infection in all individuals, individuals who may not become severely ill play no role in transmission and that vaccines do not prevent severe illness. All of these are contrary to everything medicine has learned about ID in the last 150 years.

 

[Stank811]

Thank you Vector, I was just about to post this. Again, another major reason we vaccinate against disease and something learned early in medical school.

Stank811 appears to be under the assumption or making claims that a vaccine is 100% affective at preventing infection in all individuals, individuals who may not become severely ill play no role in transmission and that vaccines do not prevent severe illness. All of these are contrary to everything medicine has learned about ID in the last 150 years.

I have never said any of those things and I agree as Vector pointed out vaccines help reduce the duration of high viral loads. But don’t gloss over the fact that if you are vaccinated you are just as likely to spread covid as an unvaccinated person which is why I question the reasoning of vaccinating children or low risk populations to create herd immunity to prevent spread.

“Reducing transmission is necessary to reduce virus circulation, reach herd immunity and end this tragic pandemic. This study confirms that COVID-19 vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and also accelerates viral clearance in the context of the delta variant. However, this study unfortunately also highlights that the vaccine effect on reducing transmission is minimal in the context of delta variant circulation.”

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I have never said any of those things and I agree as Vector pointed out vaccines help reduce the duration of high viral loads. But don’t gloss over the fact that if you are vaccinated you are just as likely to spread covid as an unvaccinated person which is why I question the reasoning of vaccinating children or low risk populations to create herd immunity to prevent spread.

I'm pretty sure this hasn't been proven.

And even if we assume that once you have a breakthrough case you are as infectious (which is still up for debate), the fact that the vaccine does prevent you getting sick in the first place means you are in fact less likely to spread COVID.

 

[gasdoc77]

You're the one making fallacious slippery slope "well, if we have to vaccinate kids, what's next, pets??????" arguments.

He asked you to provide evidence that animal vectors are a significant factor in the continuation of this pandemic. You haven't provided any.

So it is your position that animals cannot serve as a reservoir? Is that the science?

 

[PainDrain]

I have never said any of those things and I agree as Vector pointed out vaccines help reduce the duration of high viral loads. But don’t gloss over the fact that if you are vaccinated you are just as likely to spread covid as an unvaccinated person which is why I question the reasoning of vaccinating children or low risk populations to create herd immunity to prevent spread.

Your basic lack of understanding on this subject is astounding. In one instance you agree with the premise that duration of viral loads is decreased yet can’t seem to grasp that this is exactly how vaccines work in asymptomatic or those who have non-severe infections to reduce transmission. Let me slow “splain” this for you: a faster rate of viral clearance in a vaccinated individual reduces the likelihood over time that this person will come into contact with other individuals and infect them. You do realize that a person who is infectious for 3 days vs 7 has a lower likelihood of passing that on? You get this right?

 

[greatnt249]

I have never said any of those things and I agree as Vector pointed out vaccines help reduce the duration of high viral loads. But don’t gloss over the fact that if you are vaccinated you are just as likely to spread covid as an unvaccinated person which is why I question the reasoning of vaccinating children or low risk populations to create herd immunity to prevent spread.

You're contradicting yourself...if a vaccine helps reduce the duration of being infectious as well as helps reduce viral load, then you can't be "just as likely" to spread COVID if you've been vaccinated as you would if you were unvaccinated.

 

[PainDrain]

So it is your position that animals cannot serve as a reservoir? Is that the science?

Has it been shown otherwise? Simply saying something is zoonotic doesn’t necessarily mean transmission in, let’s say deer, will leap to humans.

 

[gasdoc77]

"Fully vaccinated individuals with delta variant infection had a faster (posterior probability >0·84) mean rate of viral load decline (0·95 log10 copies per mL per day) than did unvaccinated individuals with pre-alpha (0·69), alpha (0·82), or delta (0·79) variant infections."


Vaccination reduces the duration of high viral loads and thus the period of time where an individual is maximally contagious.

It also masks symptoms, which would increase the likelihood of unknowingly visiting grandma in the nursing home while carrying.

 

[greatnt249]

So it is your position that animals cannot serve as a reservoir? Is that the science?

This conclusion isn't even remotely close to what you can presume from the statement "animal vectors aren't a significant ongoing contributor to the pandemic."

 

[PainDrain]

It also masks symptoms, which would increase the likelihood of unknowingly visiting grandma in the nursing home while carrying.

Hence the need for other measures such as masking, contact tracing and limiting behavior that may lead to transmission.

You both are doing an excellent job of reinforcing exactly why we should take these measures.

You do know one of the reasons why MERS/SARS and Ebola did not become pandemics right?

 

[greatnt249]

It also masks symptoms, which would increase the likelihood of unknowingly visiting grandma in the nursing home while carrying.

Right, so we should just not vaccinate at all because we might be masking asymptomatic spread. There's some Olympic-level mental gymnastics going on in this thread to avoid recommending vaccination.

 

[Southpaw]

It also masks symptoms, which would increase the likelihood of unknowingly visiting grandma in the nursing home while carrying.

So a vaccinated person is less likely to get the disease, less likely to get sick, less likely to get hospitalized, and less likely to die. If infected they'll be sicker a shorter amount of time and in that time they'll have a lower viral load. And between that and socially distancing themself and masking (which a vaccinated person is far more likely to do than an unvaccinated person, btw) you maintain they're more a risk to grandma? Thanks Doc!

 

[Stank811]

You're contradicting yourself...if a vaccine helps reduce the duration of being infectious as well as helps reduce viral load, then you can't be "just as likely" to spread COVID if you've been vaccinated as you would if you were unvaccinated.

Peak viral load is the same between the two study populations. The spread in households was the same between the 2 study populations. Vaccination doesn’t prevent you from spreading the virus is all I am attempting to say. So if it doesn’t prevent spread why are we vaccinated low risk patients?