Help me help someone with ivermectin

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Peak viral load is the same between the two study populations. The spread in households was the same between the 2 study populations. Vaccination doesn’t prevent you from spreading the virus is all I am attempting to say. So if it doesn’t prevent spread why are we vaccinated low risk patients?

Those 2 studies you posted used the same study data. You know that right? Its 1 study population, not 2.

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[greatnt249]

Peak viral load is the same between the two study populations. The spread in households was the same between the 2 study populations. Vaccination doesn’t prevent you from spreading the virus is all I am attempting to say. So if it doesn’t prevent spread why are we vaccinated low risk patients?

Based on what study? And even if it didn't prevent the person from spreading it, not winding up in the hospital, in the ICU, or dead seems like a reasonably worthwhile endeavor.

 

[Stank811]

Based on what study? And even if it didn't prevent the person from spreading it, not winding up in the hospital, in the ICU, or dead seems like a reasonably worthwhile endeavor.

I agree. I am not against vaccinations. They help reduce severe illness and hospitalizations which should be the goal. But for those at low risk from severe illness and hospitalization why vaccinate them if the vaccines don’t prevent spread?

 

[greatnt249]

I agree. I am not against vaccinations. They help reduce severe illness and hospitalizations which should be the goal. But for those at low risk from severe illness and hospitalization why vaccinate them if the vaccines don’t prevent spread?

Because a small percentage of a large number is still a large number? And also because vaccines do reduce the risk of spread and viral load?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I agree. I am not against vaccinations. They help reduce severe illness and hospitalizations which should be the goal. But for those at low risk from severe illness and hospitalization why vaccinate them if the vaccines don’t prevent spread?

Because that statement is incorrect

 

[Stank811]

SAR among household contacts exposed to fully vaccinated index cases was similar to household contacts exposed to unvaccinated index cases (25% [95% CI 15–35] for vaccinated vs 23% [15–31] for unvaccinated). 12 (39%) of 31 infections in fully vaccinated household contacts arose from fully vaccinated epidemiologically linked index cases, further confirmed by genomic and virological analysis in three index case–contact pairs. Although peak viral load did not differ by vaccination status or variant type, it increased modestly with age (difference of 0·39 [95% credible interval –0·03 to 0·79] in peak log10viral load per mL between those aged 10 years and 50 years).

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

SAR among household contacts exposed to fully vaccinated index cases was similar to household contacts exposed to unvaccinated index cases (25% [95% CI 15–35] for vaccinated vs 23% [15–31] for unvaccinated). 12 (39%) of 31 infections in fully vaccinated household contacts arose from fully vaccinated epidemiologically linked index cases, further confirmed by genomic and virological analysis in three index case–contact pairs. Although peak viral load did not differ by vaccination status or variant type, it increased modestly with age (difference of 0·39 [95% credible interval –0·03 to 0·79] in peak log10viral load per mL between those aged 10 years and 50 years).

So a vaccinated person is less likely to get the disease, less likely to get sick, less likely to get hospitalized, and less likely to die. If infected they'll be sicker a shorter amount of time and in that time they'll have a lower viral load. And between that and socially distancing themself and masking (which a vaccinated person is far more likely to do than an unvaccinated person, btw) you maintain they're more a risk to grandma? Thanks Doc!

 

[Stank811]

SAR among household contacts exposed to fully vaccinated index cases was similar to household contacts exposed to unvaccinated index cases (25% [95% CI 15–35] for vaccinated vs 23% [15–31] for unvaccinated). 12 (39%) of 31 infections in fully vaccinated household contacts arose from fully vaccinated epidemiologically linked index cases, further confirmed by genomic and virological analysis in three index case–contact pairs. Although peak viral load did not differ by vaccination status or variant type, it increased modestly with age (difference of 0·39 [95% credible interval –0·03 to 0·79] in peak log10viral load per mL between those aged 10 years and 50 years).

Unfortunately, the vaccine’s beneficial effect on Delta transmission waned to almost negligible levels over time. In people infected 2 weeks after receiving the vaccine developed by the University of Oxford and AstraZeneca, both in the UK, the chance that an unvaccinated close contact would test positive was 57%, but 3 months later, that chance rose to 67%. The latter figure is on par with the likelihood that an unvaccinated person will spread the virus.

A reduction was also observed in people vaccinated with the jab made by US company Pfizer and German firm BioNTech. The risk of spreading the Delta infection soon after vaccination with that jab was 42%, but increased to 58% with time.

 

[PainDrain]

Stank811. What is your opinion on vaccines for other diseases?

 

[greatnt249]

Unfortunately, the vaccine’s beneficial effect on Delta transmission waned to almost negligible levels over time. In people infected 2 weeks after receiving the vaccine developed by the University of Oxford and AstraZeneca, both in the UK, the chance that an unvaccinated close contact would test positive was 57%, but 3 months later, that chance rose to 67%. The latter figure is on par with the likelihood that an unvaccinated person will spread the virus.

A reduction was also observed in people vaccinated with the jab made by US company Pfizer and German firm BioNTech. The risk of spreading the Delta infection soon after vaccination with that jab was 42%, but increased to 58% with time.

I have zero interest in discussing strengths and weaknesses of studies on an online forum. Really just interested in gauging the audience.

For someone with "zero interest in discussing strengths and weaknesses of studies," you sure do like throwing numbers around without context.

 

[vector2]

So it is your position that animals cannot serve as a reservoir? Is that the science?

Literally the textbook definition of a dishonest strawman to jump from chessknt's request that you show some evidence that animal vectors are currently contributing to the ongoing pandemic spread to "is it your position that animals cannot serve as a reservoir"

Just hilariously dishonest. Either show some evidence that some animals need to be eradicated or vaccinated to slow the current spread or do us all a favor and stuff it with the slippery slope "first kids have to get the shot then what next, pets???" fallacy

 

[vector2]

"New evidence shows that even though fully vaccinated people remain at risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection, they are substantially less prone to carry SARS-CoV-2 compared with unvaccinated people. A point-prevalence survey of almost 100 000 people conducted in England in June-July 2021 during the height of that country’s spring Delta variant surge found that fully vaccinated people (n = 55 962) were two-thirds less likely to harbor SARS-CoV-2 compared with unvaccinated people (n = 15 135), with absolute rates of 0.40% vs 1.21%, respectively.5

Likewise, in a randomized trial of the mRNA-1273 vaccine (Moderna) vs placebo, vaccinated participants (n = 14 287) were two-thirds less likely to be asymptomatic carriers than unvaccinated participants (n = 14 164), with absolute rates of 1.5% vs 3.5%, respectively (estimated vaccine effectiveness against asymptomatic infection, 63.0% [95% CI, 56.6%-68.5%]).6"

Understanding Breakthrough Infections Following mRNA SARS-CoV-2 Vaccination

The current surge in infections with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant has made it clear to health care workers and the public alike that fully vaccinated people remain at risk for SARS-CoV-2 infections. It is also apparent that breakthrough infections in fully vaccinated people can sometimes be...

jamanetwork.com

I can't believe we're still arguing this point. Even if the peak viral loads are the same in a breakthrough infection, the vaccinated person was less likely to get the infection in the first place. How is this this hard to grasp?

 

[PainDrain]

"New evidence shows that even though fully vaccinated people remain at risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection, they are substantially less prone to carry SARS-CoV-2 compared with unvaccinated people. A point-prevalence survey of almost 100 000 people conducted in England in June-July 2021 during the height of that country’s spring Delta variant surge found that fully vaccinated people (n = 55 962) were two-thirds less likely to harbor SARS-CoV-2 compared with unvaccinated people (n = 15 135), with absolute rates of 0.40% vs 1.21%, respectively.5

Likewise, in a randomized trial of the mRNA-1273 vaccine (Moderna) vs placebo, vaccinated participants (n = 14 287) were two-thirds less likely to be asymptomatic carriers than unvaccinated participants (n = 14 164), with absolute rates of 1.5% vs 3.5%, respectively (estimated vaccine effectiveness against asymptomatic infection, 63.0% [95% CI, 56.6%-68.5%]).6"

Understanding Breakthrough Infections Following mRNA SARS-CoV-2 Vaccination

The current surge in infections with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant has made it clear to health care workers and the public alike that fully vaccinated people remain at risk for SARS-CoV-2 infections. It is also apparent that breakthrough infections in fully vaccinated people can sometimes be...

jamanetwork.com

I can't believe we're still arguing this point. Even if the peak viral loads are the same in a breakthrough infection, the vaccinated person was less likely to get the infection in the first place. How is this this hard to grasp?

“Denial ain’t just a River in Egypt.”

 

[nimbus]

You're contradicting yourself...if a vaccine helps reduce the duration of being infectious as well as helps reduce viral load, then you can't be "just as likely" to spread COVID if you've been vaccinated as you would if you were unvaccinated.

It depends on their other behavior. I’ve had a contractor come to my house.

Him “I’m vaxxed so we don’t need masks.”

Me-“I don’t care. We still need masks.”


If people spend time unmasked and indoors together, they can spread COVID, vaxxed or not. If vaccinated people are more cavalier about masking or socializing because they think the vaccine protects them, they could spread more Covid.

 

[greatnt249]

It depends on their other behavior. I’ve had a contractor come to my house.

Him “I’m vaxxed so we don’t need masks.”

Me-“I don’t care. We still need masks.”


If people spend time unmasked and indoors indoors together, they can spread COVID, vaxxed or not.

I'm not saying vaccinated people can't still spread COVID; my response was mainly to counter the argument that "because vaccinated people can still spread COVID then why bother vaccinating at all?"

 

[PainDrain]

It depends on their other behavior. I’ve had a contractor come to my house.

Him “I’m vaxxed so we don’t need masks.”

Me-“I don’t care. We still need masks.”


If people spend time unmasked and indoors together, they can spread COVID, vaxxed or not. If vaccinated people are more cavalier about masking or socializing because they think the vaccine protects them, they could spread more Covid.

Behavior patterns are a major flaw in the study quoted above by Stank. Yes it compares rates of infection between vaxed and unvaxed but it does not address or even comment on their behavior patterns. This was pointed out as a flaw in one of the letters to the editor.

 

[gasdoc77]

So ha

This conclusion isn't even remotely close to what you can presume from the statement "animal vectors aren't a significant ongoing contributor to the pandemic."

So have children been shown to be? Evidence?

 

[gasdoc77]

Right, so we should just not vaccinate at all because we might be masking asymptomatic spread. There's some Olympic-level mental gymnastics going on in this thread to avoid recommending vaccination.tgere is a

Your inability to discern such a basic concept as being for the vaccine (in indicated patients) yet against mandates displays why many of you are out of your league in the practice of medicine (much less in trying to argue with an actual diagnostician).

 

[greatnt249]

Your inability to discern such a basic concept as being for the vaccine (in indicated patients) yet against mandates displays why many of you are out of your league in the practice of medicine (much less in trying to argue with an actual diagnostician).

What residency to you have to graduate from to become an "actual diagnostician"...can't say I'm familiar with that specialty. And where were we talking about mandates? Again...Olympic-level mental gymnastics when it comes to conclusions drawn from statements that were actually made.

 

[Southpaw]

Your inability to discern such a basic concept as being for the vaccine (in indicated patients) yet against mandates displays why many of you are out of your league in the practice of medicine (much less in trying to argue with an actual diagnostician).

Should I apply to the Aaron Rodgers School of Critical Thinking to achieve your level of enlightenment?

 

[Ho0v-man]

Are any of those positive sense RNA viruses?

Polio

 

[gasdoc77]

What residency to you have to graduate from to become an "actual diagnostician"...can't say I'm familiar with that specialty. And where were we talking about mandates? Again...Olympic-level mental gymnastics when it comes to conclusions drawn from statements that were actually made

Only you know deep down if your are a diagnostician vs a technician who may, on occasion, diagnose bronchospasm.

Sounds to me like we have a number of box checkers who can't be bothered with nuance (which is precisely where medicine is practiced) because "don't confuse your Google search with my MD." No wonder you all are scared of mid levels taking over....for good reason. Your ego will be your undoing.

 

[greatnt249]

Only you know deep down if your are a diagnostician vs a technician who may, on occasion, diagnose bronchospasm.

Sounds to me like we have a number of box checkers who can't be bothered with nuance (which is precisely where medicine is practiced) because "don't confuse your Google search with my MD." No wonder you all are scared of mid levels taking over....for good reason. Your ego will be your undoing.

This post doesn't even make sense, and isn't even relevant to the current discussion at hand nor does it address any of the questions you're being asked to answer. What ego are we even talking about, and how will it even be our undoing when it comes to vaccination? Where were we even talking about midlevels? What nuance is there to even address?

 

[LineAndBerry]

Dr. Peter McCullough interview highlights.
It's long.
Not saying I agree with all or any of it.
Comments?

The Most Important Podcast You'll Hear About COVID-19

Dr. Peter McCullough recently appeared on The Joe Rogan Experience to discuss the COVID-19 pandemic. Listen to their entire conversation here.

articles.mercola.com

 

[vector2]

Dr. Peter McCullough
Comments?

The Most Important Podcast You'll Hear About COVID-19

Dr. Peter McCullough recently appeared on The Joe Rogan Experience to discuss the COVID-19 pandemic. Listen to their entire conversation here.

articles.mercola.com

He's a misinformation spreading anti-vax dipsht who should lose his medical license.

"Posted on the Canadian online video sharing platform Rumble, McCullough gave an interview in April 2021 to The New American, the magazine of the right-wing John Birch Society, in which he advanced anti-vaccination messaging, including falsely claiming tens of thousands of fatalities attributed to the COVID-19 vaccines."

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

Dr. Peter McCullough interview highlights.
It's long.
Not saying I agree with all or any of it.
Comments?

The Most Important Podcast You'll Hear About COVID-19

Dr. Peter McCullough recently appeared on The Joe Rogan Experience to discuss the COVID-19 pandemic. Listen to their entire conversation here.

articles.mercola.com

You do realize that you are sourcing an article from mercola, right? Each time you click, you should think of all the snakes that died to bring you that oil.

 

[Southpaw]

Dr. Peter McCullough interview highlights.
It's long.
Not saying I agree with all or any of it.
Comments?

The Most Important Podcast You'll Hear About COVID-19

Dr. Peter McCullough recently appeared on The Joe Rogan Experience to discuss the COVID-19 pandemic. Listen to their entire conversation here.

articles.mercola.com

Because people speak well, sound authoritative, and appeal to certain political mindsets their message gets broadcast to wide audiences. They get a platform. We live in an America today that proudly boasts an 'everyone is an expert' mentality. Put another way, we are actively witnessing and living in a time where the destruction of expertise is applauded and supported.

Lawsuit: Doc Using Old Baylor Affiliation While Dishing COVID Vax Falsehoods

Baylor Scott & White Health says Peter McCullough, MD, used former title during media interviews

www.medpagetoday.com

I've listened to Joe Rogan plenty. He's entertaining. He stays on the fringe with his opinions most often on purpose. It's provoking and it gets views. Put another way, it ensures he gets absolutely filthy stinking rich. The same can be said of McCullough, but on a smaller platform.

My guess is McCullough has purposely avoided positions where he can actually care for COVID patients in the early stages. It's much easier to preach from afar 'they just need to do THIS or THAT' without actually being the physician in charge. Were I an ED/IM/Critical Care physician who's been actively involved in the care of hundreds or thousands of COVID patients, working in a time when their hospitals and resources were stripped bare, I'd be absolutely insulted to the point of tears listening to someone spew this BS.

If hcq or ivermectin works, PROVE IT! That's all I ask. Don't produce studies with flawed data. Get out there and do the work. I can assure you, we're all tired of ICUs being innundated with patients and watching them slowly die an absolutely terrible death, but not before they rot for weeks/months in what I'd consider a very inhumane manner. Additionally, if there were this massive of a conspiracy by the US government to nix hcq and ivermectin don't think you enough people would be involved that someone could actually give some detail about the plots involved?

The nonsense is out of hand.

 

[jwk]

We had our kid vaccinated, to protect their grandparents, their friends who cannot get vaccinated due to legitimate medical reasons, not someone’s dumpy “religious” objections. Part of our job is to protect public at large. We are a year after vaccine being available, 800K dead, two variants spike. Neither carrot nor stick worked. Let those who wants test Darwin’s theory do their part. Why should I give a damn, I am protected, my family is protected. I feel much better knowing they won’t be dead if they catch this. I am also proud, even though they cannot be 100% being eliminated as a vector for transmission, they tried. Love thy neighbors. A few people I know who had three shots, just tested positive….. no one ended up in hospital. Looks like it’ll be another dark winter. I hope all these discussions will be digitized for the future generations, to see how dumb some of us are. Just remember when you’re dead, you can no longer argue.

We are physicians, we know better, we should be able to tell our patients right from wrong. But you all do you, I will wear my mask in the hospital and telling my loved ones do the same.

My gosh I just love common sense.

 

[LineAndBerry]

You do realize that you are sourcing an article from mercola, right? Each time you click, you should think of all the snakes that died to bring you that oil.

I am not familiar with Mercola. The link was sent to me by a doc at our hospital. We've been back and forth on these topics for 2 years now. We chat frequently and I've respected his views because he knows the literature much better than I do,. He's also one of the most respected here clinically. That said, this guy has strong independent views on most things.

 

[GassYous]

I am not familiar with Mercola. The link was sent to me by a doc at our hospital. We've been back and forth on these topics for 2 years now. We chat frequently and I've respected his views because he knows the literature much better than I do,. He's also one of the most respected here clinically. That said, this guy has strong independent views on most things.

No he's just a weirdo quack

 

[PainDrain]

Dr. Peter McCullough interview highlights.
It's long.
Not saying I agree with all or any of it.
Comments?

The Most Important Podcast You'll Hear About COVID-19

Dr. Peter McCullough recently appeared on The Joe Rogan Experience to discuss the COVID-19 pandemic. Listen to their entire conversation here.

articles.mercola.com

I am not familiar with Mercola. The link was sent to me by a doc at our hospital. We've been back and forth on these topics for 2 years now. We chat frequently and I've respected his views because he knows the literature much better than I do,. He's also one of the most respected here clinically. That said, this guy has strong independent views on most things.

If you watched/listened to the Rogan interview McCullough clearly isn’t playing with a full deck. The guy goes on a tangent about a global conspiracy orchestrated by the Gates foundation, “big pharma”, Fauci, Biden and the “elites” to make money. He is bananas and he should be publicly shamed for his actions and he should lose his license.

 

[nimbus]

For whatever reason Merck is not interested in making money selling ivermectin to treat Covid. Maybe they have too much money or it’s a global conspiracy. You’d think they’d be interested in crushing Pfizer and moderna.

Merck Statement on Ivermectin use During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Merck.com

KENILWORTH, N.J., Feb. 4, 2021 – Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of...

www.merck.com

 

[chessknt]

I am not familiar with Mercola. The link was sent to me by a doc at our hospital. We've been back and forth on these topics for 2 years now. We chat frequently and I've respected his views because he knows the literature much better than I do,. He's also one of the most respected here clinically. That said, this guy has strong independent views on most things.

Might want to start reevaluating your opinion of this person if he is using the wingnut Mercola as a source. The ability to cite studies does not mean you know literature if you have no personal filter as to their validity and quality.

It is medicine of the worst form to scrounge up a bunch of garbage studies to support a practice not commonly done and preach your actions as not only valid but some sort of critically won higher standard that only the ‘real’ doctors understand. This practice is what is enabling the lay public to continue to not get vaccinated and take ineffective placebos and avoid healthcare until they have advanced disease where nothing can help resulting in 7+ figure hospitalizations and massive resource consumption.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

I am not familiar with Mercola. The link was sent to me by a doc at our hospital. We've been back and forth on these topics for 2 years now. We chat frequently and I've respected his views because he knows the literature much better than I do,. He's also one of the most respected here clinically. That said, this guy has strong independent views on most things.

Yeah, I’m not meaning to do you or your associate disparagement. Years ago, I sort of decided to dismiss Mercola after I read interviews with AIDS/HIV deniers on his website, with Mercola himself hawking spirulina supplements as an alternative to ART therapy. It just seemed like another chapter in the long sad story of AIDS deniers and the crass opportunism of vitamin salesmen, and I find it depressing, along with the gimmicks he has for sale on his website. So it’s hard to muster any interest.

 

[IMGASMD]

My gosh I just love common sense.

Right?! I am glad there are people like vector et el, who can still calmly presenting coherent arguments. I’ve had enough. If you are still believing some fairytales or conspiracies or “alternative” treatments. Go the fuk ahead. If 800k Americans dead nor calling out our responsibilities as physicians to prevent and treat diseases aren’t going to change your mind, then nothing will.

 

[dhb]

If 800k Americans dead

With a population of 331.500.000 that's 24130 deaths per 10 million which is on par with the numbers in Western Europe.
I can only find the death by age group up to june 15th for Belgium but there were only 13 deaths in the 0-24 y/o group and 124 in the 25-44. While 80% of deaths were in the above 75 group.
By comparaison in 2019 there were 42 deaths from traffic accidents in age group 0-19 and 206 for the 20-40 y/o. In the 0-24 y/o having covid is probably less dangerous than having an anesthetic.
I deal with a lot of old people and maybe 10% (if generous) of them are healthy. Does the world really have to stop turning because people that were barely hanging on are dying a little faster?

 

[vector2]

. Does the world really have to stop turning because people that were barely hanging on are dying a little faster?

Belgian intensive care unit’s coronavirus ‘trial of survival’

Hospitals are struggling to cope with patients infected by the virus and treat others awaiting non-COVID care.

www.google.com

 

[MirrorTodd]

With a population of 331.500.000 that's 24130 deaths per 10 million which is on par with the numbers in Western Europe.
I can only find the death by age group up to june 15th for Belgium but there were only 13 deaths in the 0-24 y/o group and 124 in the 25-44. While 80% of deaths were in the above 75 group.
By comparaison in 2019 there were 42 deaths from traffic accidents in age group 0-19 and 206 for the 20-40 y/o. In the 0-24 y/o having covid is probably less dangerous than having an anesthetic.
I deal with a lot of old people and maybe 10% (if generous) of them are healthy. Does the world really have to stop turning because people that were barely hanging on are dying a little faster?

Ain't nobody asking for the world to stop turning. Just get vaccinated, wear a mask, wash your hands, and stop touting treatments that are essentially snake oil.

 

[chessknt]

With a population of 331.500.000 that's 24130 deaths per 10 million which is on par with the numbers in Western Europe.
I can only find the death by age group up to june 15th for Belgium but there were only 13 deaths in the 0-24 y/o group and 124 in the 25-44. While 80% of deaths were in the above 75 group.
By comparaison in 2019 there were 42 deaths from traffic accidents in age group 0-19 and 206 for the 20-40 y/o. In the 0-24 y/o having covid is probably less dangerous than having an anesthetic.
I deal with a lot of old people and maybe 10% (if generous) of them are healthy. Does the world really have to stop turning because people that were barely hanging on are dying a little faster?

I know in my heart that trying to get through is pointless but—remember when surgeries were cancelled because the hospitals were all full? Do you think the harms associated with that are captured in your statistic? How about the general decline in care with the fight of experienced inpatient staff over COVID fatigue and increased staffing ratios? How about the longer er wait times because the er can’t get anyone admitted because the hospital is gummed up? What about the COVID survivors who can’t work or have to work less because of long term complications? What about the psychological trauma to people who have lost immediate or extended family members (or worse have a ghost if that person who survived the disease and is now dependent in adls)? What about the erosion of faith in healthcare providers and the rising threat of violence against healthcare workers in general?

There are so many ways that the unvaccinated COVID flood has crippled and degraded our healthcare system over the past year. Blowing this off as a disease that only hurts unhealthy older people is an alt right rhetoric that appeals to the uneducated but holds no water for anyone who has actually worked through it.

 

[dhb]

View attachment 347083

Belgian intensive care unit’s coronavirus ‘trial of survival’

Hospitals are struggling to cope with patients infected by the virus and treat others awaiting non-COVID care.

www.google.com

The article states 830 patients in the icu out of 2000+ beds... peak occupancy was something like 1100 icu patients.
To my knowledge the only delay of care have been self imposed by politicians acting like they are doing something not by lack of capacity.
Both of my in laws have been diagnosed with cancer right in the middle of the pandemic and have not suffered from delays in their care.
A lot of people have been scared out of seeking care and going to the hospital .

 

[dhb]

Blowing this off as a disease that only hurts unhealthy older people is an alt right rhetoric

I've shown the numbers that are availabe i did not say it only hurts this population exclusively but mostly yes it does.

 

[vector2]

.
To my knowledge the only delay of care have been self imposed by politicians acting like they are doing something not by lack of capacity.

A lot of people have been scared out of seeking care and going to the hospital .

You're delusional.

---

"after Belgian hospitals, overwhelmed with COVID-19 patients, temporarily suspended non-urgent care. On December 9, there were 827 patients with COVID in the ICU in Belgium. (On September 1, there were 193.)

At the hospital, the morning’s decision is a complicated one: The next available ICU bed can, at any time, be needed for emergencies like brain bleeds, life-threatening bacterial infections or acute heart disease. This leaves patients waiting for other urgent procedures — heart valve replacements, for example, after which they will need an ICU bed — in limbo, their doctors having to “negotiate” the urgency of their needs against that of other patients. Cancer surgeries have, for the most part, been able to continue as scheduled.

“For the patients, it’s a tremendous disaster,” Poelaert says, noting surgeries and procedures are sometimes postponed three times. “It brings a lot of misery.”

The hospital has had to do some reshuffling. Some of the operating rooms have been shut down, their nurses redeployed to the ICU. They expanded the number of adult ICU beds from 24 to 36 by converting other specialized units into ICUs.

----

 

[chessknt]

I've shown the numbers that are availabe i did not say it only hurts this population exclusively but mostly yes it does.

Yea you’d think I learn better than to try… The statistics dont exist to capture the degree of damage that has been sustained but finding a nice reassuring statistic like mortality when that captures such a small fraction of this disease in order to support your delusion has been a common cognitive retreat for the pro COVID camp.

maybe you’ll change your mind when it impacts someone you care about but it is shameful that has to be the case to understand.

 

[IMGASMD]

With a population of 331.500.000 that's 24130 deaths per 10 million which is on par with the numbers in Western Europe.
I can only find the death by age group up to june 15th for Belgium but there were only 13 deaths in the 0-24 y/o group and 124 in the 25-44. While 80% of deaths were in the above 75 group.
By comparaison in 2019 there were 42 deaths from traffic accidents in age group 0-19 and 206 for the 20-40 y/o. In the 0-24 y/o having covid is probably less dangerous than having an anesthetic.
I deal with a lot of old people and maybe 10% (if generous) of them are healthy. Does the world really have to stop turning because people that were barely hanging on are dying a little faster?

If it’s a death that’s preventable, especially for young people, it’s still a death prevented. What’s soooo terrible about getting a vaccine? What’s so terrible to shoot for 70% vaccination rate for the whole population? Because the government is telling you? Is that your only reason to say no? 70% is a fuking C-. We can’t even reach a C- as a population, what else is there to say? So for those who decided not to make their patients better human beings, let it be known. And those will not accept vaccines for whatever reasons, say hi to Darwin when you see him. (The first death from Omicron in US is someone who had second COVID infection…. And obviously didn’t want to get vaccinated after first infection……. I won’t judge anyone who didn’t shed a tear for him. I feel for the family tho.)

My Medicine Chairman is a religious man. He once told us why he loved Randomized Controlled Trials so much. He said he may not know what God is thinking, but every time there is a huge trial that he participates in that the evidence is so convincing, he feels that he gets to know God a little more.

I am not sure what else is there to say anymore. The world doesn’t have to stop, but it has slowed down regardless. Every time it tried to restart, in the Spring, delta happened. In the Fall, now Omicron. Fine, just let it burn and burn, survival the fittest.

 

[greatnt249]

With a population of 331.500.000 that's 24130 deaths per 10 million which is on par with the numbers in Western Europe.
I can only find the death by age group up to june 15th for Belgium but there were only 13 deaths in the 0-24 y/o group and 124 in the 25-44. While 80% of deaths were in the above 75 group.
By comparaison in 2019 there were 42 deaths from traffic accidents in age group 0-19 and 206 for the 20-40 y/o. In the 0-24 y/o having covid is probably less dangerous than having an anesthetic.
I deal with a lot of old people and maybe 10% (if generous) of them are healthy. Does the world really have to stop turning because people that were barely hanging on are dying a little faster?

Traffic accidents aren't contagious.

 

[gasdoc77]

With a population of 331.500.000 that's 24130 deaths per 10 million which is on par with the numbers in Western Europe.
I can only find the death by age group up to june 15th for Belgium but there were only 13 deaths in the 0-24 y/o group and 124 in the 25-44. While 80% of deaths were in the above 75 group.
By comparaison in 2019 there were 42 deaths from traffic accidents in age group 0-19 and 206 for the 20-40 y/o. In the 0-24 y/o having covid is probably less dangerous than having an anesthetic.
I deal with a lot of old people and maybe 10% (if generous) of them are healthy. Does the world really have to stop turning because people that were barely hanging on are dying a little faster?

Nobody has shown a shred of evidence that the young population (vaccinated or not) poses a significant threat, so they resort to the "one death is too many" arguments from Oprah.

What kind of a sick society places their fear ahead of the children, particularly when they already have a treatment? Seems a little cowardly.

 

[greatnt249]

Nobody has shown a shred of evidence that the young population (vaccinated or not) poses a significant threat, so they resort to the "one death is too many" arguments from Oprah.

What kind of a sick society places their fear ahead of the children, particularly when they already have a treatment? Seems a little cowardly.

What treatment, by chance, do we already have that is more efficacious than avoiding getting critically ill to begin with? Your posts sound more like a political sound board than they show actual evidence.

Cowardly? We're talking about getting a simple vaccine.

 

[gasdoc77]

What treatment, by chance, do we already have that is more efficacious than avoiding getting critically ill to begin with? Your posts sound more like a political sound board than they show actual evidence.

Cowardly? We're talking about getting a simple vaccine.

The vaccine (which obviously won't prevent the spread but may slow it) is a treatment. The term is actually less politically charged and more appropriate.

 

[greatnt249]

The vaccine (which obviously won't prevent the spread but may slow it) is a treatment. The term is actually less politically charged and more appropriate.

Okay...what "treatment" is more effective in preventing hospitalization and/or death than getting the vaccine? I'll start; it's not ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine.

 

[OneFellSwoop]

The article states 830 patients in the icu out of 2000+ beds... peak occupancy was something like 1100 icu patients.
To my knowledge the only delay of care have been self imposed by politicians acting like they are doing something not by lack of capacity.
Both of my in laws have been diagnosed with cancer right in the middle of the pandemic and have not suffered from delays in their care.
A lot of people have been scared out of seeking care and going to the hospital .

We have no politician telling us what to do anymore. All of our elective inpatient cases are canceled for the remainder of the year. Hospital is full, ICU is full, area metropolitan hospitals are full and not accepting transfers anymore. Every ICU bed has a COVID patient in it. THIS IS NOT A STAFFING ISSUE, we literally have no physical beds. the cancellations are out of necessity and not politically motivated anymore.