MD High MCAT (38) Low GPA 3.25 (4.0 for most recent 2 yrs)

[FutureFACS]

Hi! I have a 3.25 cumulative GPA and a 3.33 sGPA, although ever since I decided I wanted to go into medicine (two years ago), I have had a 4.0. The problem with my GPA stems from the fact that I started college as a D1A football player, whose career got cut short by injury- thus hurting my GPA drastically. My MCAT score is a 38 (12/12/14). I have been involved in an interesting research project (about 250 hrs), a (not really clinical) medical internship for a year, worked full time as a personal trainer, Vice President of a Fraternity, started a cancer fundraiser, worked as a bio and physics tutor, was a note taker for disabled students, have shadowing experience (peds/family medicine) but only around 50 hours. I do need more clinical work.

What are my chances if I apply very broadly and early? Will my upward trend help? I want to try to avoid an SMP if possible

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[Silverflash]

Honestly, I think you're a strong applicant. The thing that you will have to get past is getting weeded out automatically based on your GPA, but with your MCAT I don't think it should be an issue; any human looking at your numbers would give you a second look, and if they give you a second look, they'll see the very strong upward trend in your GPA which will be a huge plus. In addition, your EC's seem decently strong.

Honestly, as long as you apply to a good mix of schools and include some lower tier med schools to be safe, I think you'll get interviews. And in those interviews, you should be able to explain your GPA. A 4.0 since you got serious about medicine looks very good.

 

[Catalystik]

Hi! I have a 3.25 cumulative GPA and a 3.33 sGPA, although ever since I decided I wanted to go into medicine (two years ago), I have had a 4.0. The problem with my GPA stems from the fact that I started college as a D1A football player, whose career got cut short by injury- thus hurting my GPA drastically. My MCAT score is a 38 (12/12/14). I have been involved in an interesting research project (about 250 hrs), a (not really clinical) medical internship for a year, worked full time as a personal trainer, Vice President of a Fraternity, started a cancer fundraiser, worked as a bio and physics tutor, was a note taker for disabled students, have shadowing experience (peds/family medicine) but only around 50 hours. I do need more clinical work.

What are my chances if I apply very broadly and early? Will my upward trend help? I want to try to avoid an SMP if possible

All applicants applying through AMCAS in the past three years with a 3.25/38 had a 62% chance of acceptance. Your steep upward grade trend should make that more likely, but weak active clinical experience would decrease it.

I think your shadowing is fine. Fifty hours is about the average listed.

Didn't you work with any injured athletes getting back into shape as a personal trainer? What did the medical internship entail? Have you made any progress finding a position in a medical facility since you inquired about the range of possibilities?

 

[FutureFACS]

All applicants applying through AMCAS in the past three years with a 3.25/38 had a 62% chance of acceptance. Your steep upward grade trend should make that more likely, but weak active clinical experience would decrease it.

I think your shadowing is fine. Fifty hours is about the average listed.

Didn't you work with any injured athletes getting back into shape as a personal trainer? What did the medical internship entail? Have you made any progress finding a position in a medical facility since you inquired about the range of possibilities?

I worked with some injured athletes, yes but nothing severe. I also had clients with diabetes or other medical conditions I had to work around. All in all it was nice to help people adjust to a healthy lifestyle. The medical internship consists of assisting in phleb/pathology labs. The problem I am having with finding a clinical position are the hours; I need to work part time and at hours that are reasonable-which is hard to find :/

A 4.0 since you got serious about medicine looks very good.

Thanks! I hope it can highlight just how bad I want it. I was able to increase so drastically just because I want to go into medicine

 

[Catalystik]

I worked with some injured athletes, yes but nothing severe. I also had clients with diabetes or other medical conditions I had to work around.

At least you have something, but be prepared that it might not be considered enough, even with a few months of medical facility volunteering or employment before you submit your application. So keep at it through the application cycle for the sake of Secondary essays, interview conversations, update letters where allowed, and in case you end up reapplying.

 

[Goro]

Concur with the Cat; Aim for those schools that value the last 2-3 years of your academic work. The upward trend definitely helps. Contact some Admissions deans to see if you competitive for their schools.

Hi! I have a 3.25 cumulative GPA and a 3.33 sGPA, although ever since I decided I wanted to go into medicine (two years ago), I have had a 4.0. The problem with my GPA stems from the fact that I started college as a D1A football player, whose career got cut short by injury- thus hurting my GPA drastically. My MCAT score is a 38 (12/12/14). I have been involved in an interesting research project (about 250 hrs), a (not really clinical) medical internship for a year, worked full time as a personal trainer, Vice President of a Fraternity, started a cancer fundraiser, worked as a bio and physics tutor, was a note taker for disabled students, have shadowing experience (peds/family medicine) but only around 50 hours. I do need more clinical work.

What are my chances if I apply very broadly and early? Will my upward trend help? I want to try to avoid an SMP if possible

 

[FutureFACS]

I will definitely contact admissions offices, thanks!

 

[ThisCouldBeYou]

Concur with the Cat; Aim for those schools that value the last 2-3 years of your academic work. The upward trend definitely helps. Contact some Admissions deans to see if you competitive for their schools.

I see you write that advice a lot, but where can I find which schools place a higher value on the later years of college rather than the whole time?

 

[Goro]

You should be able to find this on the school's websites, and also in MSAR Online. The latter is a very worthwhile investment.

I see you write that advice a lot, but where can I find which schools place a higher value on the later years of college rather than the whole time?

 

[Catalystik]

where can I find which schools place a higher value on the later years of college rather than the whole time?

SDN's school specific threads in PreMedAllo are a place you can look or ask. Some schools won't tell you their formula, perhaps because they tweak it from year to year. But others are more transparent: U New Mexico being an example. Check on Wayne as well, but their weighting may apply to postbac work only.

 

[FutureFACS]

SDN's school specific threads in PreMedAllo are a place you can look or ask. Some schools won't tell you their formula, perhaps because they tweak it from year to year. But others are more transparent: U New Mexico being an example. Check on Wayne as well, but their weighting may apply to postbac work only.

That's a great suggestion, thank you!

 

[WillburCobb]

Tulane is also a school that likes "re-invention" and a strong MCAT score.

 

[ThisCouldBeYou]

SDN's school specific threads in PreMedAllo are a place you can look or ask. Some schools won't tell you their formula, perhaps because they tweak it from year to year. But others are more transparent: U New Mexico being an example. Check on Wayne as well, but their weighting may apply to postbac work only.

Okay, I checked out the UNew Mexico SoM* website as you suggested to see if they actually mention which factors from the AMCAS application they use. This is what I found. In general, the selection of students is based on academic achievement, motivation for the study of medicine, problem-solving ability, self-appraisal, ability to relate to people, maturity, breadth of interests and achievements, professional goals, and likelihood of serving the health care needs of the State following postgraduate training.

I also checked out the MSAR, which I have, and this is what is written in their acceptance factors:
"Selection is based upon many factors including scholastic achievement, performance on the MCAT, personal statement, interviews, and lettters of recommendation." So where does it say anything more specific, like they're looking at an upward trend, or they place more importance on one factor over another? In fact, it seems to me that every medical school says about the same thing.

This lack of anything concrete leaves me to have to create my school list based on whether or not I've heard of it or whether it's near me. I can also see about where my stats fall, but besides seeing the median scores of the gpa/MCAT, I haven't found anything that differentiates themselves in this process. Or help me to know they are looking for someone like me. Or am I missing something?





*I only used this SoM because it was mentioned. I don't live near NM nor do I have any ties to that state.

 

[Catalystik]

Here is a reference to UNM's formula.

I can say for certain that U of New Mexico SOM not only includes your grad GPA, but wieghts it 3x more than your frosh ugGPA, 2x more than your soph ugGPA, etc. i.e. Jun, Sen, PB, and Grad grades are weighted 3x to come up with an overall GPA. I suppose I should have mentioned this earlier, but I assumed that this was super-rare. (Its pretty awesome tho - my AMCAS ugGPA will be 3.1 but my UNM GPA will be like 3.5- yeah!). Had no idea that CO state did a similar thing...

Of course, the UNM thing doesnt matter if you're not a resident since they only take NM residents, but still, this now makes me wonder how common that kind of thing is... I assume it's still rare, but apparently not vanishingly so...cool!

My guess would be that you only find out such things with a call to the admissions office or by reading old threads. I don't recall seeing this sort of thing in the MSAR, but then I don't have a recent copy.

 

[ThisCouldBeYou]

Here is a reference to UNM's formula.My guess would be that you only find out such things with a call to the admissions office or by reading old threads. I don't recall seeing this sort of thing in the MSAR, but then I don't have a recent copy.

I suspect this kind of information is very confidential, so it would be very hard to find. It's definitely not in the MSAR. Your quote is surprising indeed, in part because *someone* learned exactly how the school weighted grades. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Catalystik]

I'd have suggested you pm the poster, but it looks like he last visited SDN November 2013.

 

[FutureFACS]

Here is a reference to UNM's formula.My guess would be that you only find out such things with a call to the admissions office or by reading old threads. I don't recall seeing this sort of thing in the MSAR, but then I don't have a recent copy.

The poster that you quoted said something about CO doing similar, do you know if this is true??

 

[Catalystik]

The poster is referring to the inclusion of grad degree grades in UColorado's application GPA calculations. Why don't you read the entire thread it came from and see what else you might glean that could be useful, keeping in mind that it's a few years old: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/grad-school-gpa-does-it-actually-matter.796298

 

[FutureFACS]

The poster is referring to the inclusion of grad degree grades in UColorado's application GPA calculations. Why don't your read the entire thread it came from and see what else you might glean that could be useful, keeping in mind that it's a few years old: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/grad-school-gpa-does-it-actually-matter.796298

Thanks, Colorado is my state school; so any information pertaining to it is very useful!

 

[Catalystik]

Colorado is my state school; so any information pertaining to it is very useful!

Which is a good reason why including one's home state in these WAMC threads is a good idea. Are you aware of Colorado's expectation for clinical experience? Historically, it was the highest of any other US med school under the last dean: they wanted to see 500 hours. This expectation has been removed from the website since the new dean started, but I've read it's still high (though not that high), although no longer overtly stated. Please call their admissions office and ask how many hours are desirable/required, if you can't find it on the school-specific forum or on the school's website. Let me know what you find.

 

[FutureFACS]

Which is a good reason why including one's home state in these WAMC threads is a good idea. Are you aware of Colorado's expectation for clinical experience? Historically, it was the highest of any other US med school under the last dean: they wanted to see 500 hours. This expectation has been removed from the website since the new dean started, but I've read it's still high (though not that high), although no longer overtly stated. Please call their admissions office and ask how many hours are desirable/required, if you can't find it on the school-specific forum or on the school's website. Let me know what you find.

They said just to "get as much experience as possible... and to get good letters from these experiences"

 

[Catalystik]

They said just to "get as much experience as possible... and to get good letters from these experiences"

Hmmmm. So helpful. I recall someone from last year who got in with 400 hours. Maybe you'll find an acceptee on the school-specific thread with a MDapps link from which you can get proof that they've liberalized. Keep in mind that the average listed is about 150 hours.

 

[FutureFACS]

Hmmmm. So helpful. I recall someone from last year who got in with 400 hours. Maybe you'll find an acceptee on the school-specific thread with a MDapps link from which you can get proof that they've liberalized. Keep in mind that the average listed is about 150 hours.

Ill make sure to get on it!

 

[Catalystik]

From 2 years ago: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...rado-application-thread.895342/#post-12731274

 

[ThisCouldBeYou]

Which is a good reason why including one's home state in these WAMC threads is a good idea. Are you aware of Colorado's expectation for clinical experience? Historically, it was the highest of any other US med school under the last dean: they wanted to see 500 hours. This expectation has been removed from the website since the new dean started, but I've read it's still high (though not that high), although no longer overtly stated. Please call their admissions office and ask how many hours are desirable/required, if you can't find it on the school-specific forum or on the school's website. Let me know what you find.

Do you think I should call each school that I'm thinking of applying, jsut to find out certain information that may not be in the MSAR, such as 'expected number of hours for XX'? I sure appreciate learning that CO expects that many hours. I have quite a few, but not nearly 400 or 500 hours. Thanks

 

[Catalystik]

Colorado was the only clinical experience outlier of which I have heard. I think that in general, it won't be necessary to do more than check a school's mission statement to see if you're a "fit" for it. Shadowing has an expected number of hours stated by some school's websites, but that's readily apparent, and you are fine as you are. The primary question for you to ask if you make a phone call (after an email query isn't helpful, perhaps) would be regarding a policy of weighting grades differently for different college years. It may be necessary to make a phone appointment to call back at a time when a dean is available to speak with you, so you get the most accurate info, unless the secretary answering the phone seems knowledgeable on the issue.

 

[Catalystik]

@ThisCouldBeYou : I wrote the comments above with the FutureFACS in mind, not noticing who had asked the question. I have no idea how much shadowing you have and can't comment on it's adequacy or what questions would be appropriate for you to ask, as you've never started your own WAMC thread. (Apologies to the OP for the sidetracking of his thread.)

 

[FutureFACS]

@ThisCouldBeYou : I wrote the comments above with the FutureFACS in mind, not noticing who had asked the question. I have no idea how much shadowing you have and can't comment on it's adequacy or what questions would be appropriate for you to ask, as you've never started your own WAMC thread. (Apologies to the OP for the sidetracking of his thread.)

No worries! Its good advice regardless

 

[DokterMom]

What about Special Olympics OP? A great tie-in between community service, working directly with people (OK, not technically 'patients') and your athletic background. Or sports medicine rehab? Or leading an exercise class at a senior center or day center for adults with developmental or cognitive disabilities? Or coach youth sports for kids who might not otherwise be able to play due to economic, health or disability factors.

 

[FutureFACS]

What about Special Olympics OP? A great tie-in between community service, working directly with people (OK, not technically 'patients') and your athletic background. Or sports medicine rehab? Or leading an exercise class at a senior center or day center for adults with developmental or cognitive disabilities? Or coach youth sports for kids who might not otherwise be able to play due to economic, health or disability factors.

Great idea, I guess I havent really thought outside of the box in regards to clinical experience!

 

[FutureFACS]

Colorado was the only clinical experience outlier of which I have heard. I think that in general, it won't be necessary to do more than check a school's mission statement to see if you're a "fit" for it. Shadowing has an expected number of hours stated by some school's websites, but that's readily apparent, and you are fine as you are. The primary question for you to ask if you make a phone call (after an email query isn't helpful, perhaps) would be regarding a policy of weighting grades differently for different college years. It may be necessary to make a phone appointment to call back at a time when a dean is available to speak with you, so you get the most accurate info, unless the secretary answering the phone seems knowledgeable on the issue.

I have emailed 20-ish schools and asked how they view a trend in grades. It has only been a couple days but I've only heard back from four. Mich state was very encouraging. Cinci Utah and VTech basically just said they take a holistic approach to the application

 

[Catalystik]

Cinci Utah and VTech basically just said they take a holistic approach to the application

Whatever that means.

Keep it coming.

 

[FutureFACS]

Whatever that means.

Keep it coming.

So just to update, here's some more info for those who are in a similar situation as myself.

Virginia Tech: Said my GPA wouldn't be a hindrance due to MCAT
Wake Forest: Said a trend can sometimes compensate for a low GPA, but alluded to the fact they get 8,000 applicants, and because I am O.O.S. I might be S.O.L.
Vanderbilt: Surprisingly said my MCAT makes me extremely competitive and she (director of admissions) encouraged me to apply. I was totally floored by this, even if she was just being nice, it made my day. Maybe it was because I included a little about why my gpa was low freshman year (football), whereas I didn't in my other emails.
UMKC: Said while my GPA is low they look at trends and my MCAT exceeded their average by a lot (9 pts). They also said they weigh other factors heavily (I'm assuming clinical experience).
KU: Said that strong recent academic performance can make up for a poor performance in the past
Tufts: Literally just said "yes we look at a trend favorably"
Wayne State: The first so far to tell me my GPA would be too low to be competitive (because I am OOS). I appreciate their honesty and this definitely saved me the extra time and effort of applying.

 

[Catalystik]

The comments are more useful than I would have assumed. It's very helpful to know that Wayne's "last 20 credit-hour GPA predominates" refers to postbac work only. Nice.

 

[FutureFACS]

The comments are more useful than I would have assumed. It's very helpful to know that Wayne's "last 20 credit-hour GPA predominates" refers to postbac work only. Nice.

I'll update with more, I'm gonna keep testing the waters at a bunch of schools.

 

[FutureFACS]

The comments are more useful than I would have assumed. It's very helpful to know that Wayne's "last 20 credit-hour GPA predominates" refers to postbac work only. Nice.

Here's an update on more schools that I have contacted:
Boston: Not helpful, just said that they look at the whole app but pointed out that their average GPA is around a 3.6
Brown: Again, not very helpful. Advised me to talk to my UG adviser. Said they look at the whole app and that competitive applicants usually have a 3.6 or so
Arizona: Said that a trend wouldn't be looked at until after the interview. (Weird)
George Washington: Encouraged me to explain my trend in my PS
Arizona-Pheonix: Very encouraging, said a trend is positively looked at. Said that the range of accepted was 3.0-4.0, said I should have confidence in my application to their school.
Pittsburgh: Said their range of accepted GPA was 3.1-4, said medical experience was important.
Columbia: Said the entire app is looked at and they will notice how my GPA has improved.
EVMS: Looks at average GPA, not trend. Also couldn't comment on my standing b/c they dont know my clinical experience
FIU: Look at the application 'holistically"
Florida: Strong MCAT doesn't make up for low GPA since they see them as showing two different things. But a poor freshman year wont sink me
Indiana: Look at applicants as a whole, told me to talk to UG adviser
Jefferson: Said I am competitive based on scores
LSU-NO: Said they're average sGPA is 3.6, so they look at science GPA mostly. A trend is considered
SUNY-Upstate: "Certainly note a trend, and a high MCAT helps"
Stony Brook: Looks at the whole application, not just one piece..
Temple: Wouldn't give out any advice
USF: Holistic approach and will have a chance to explain low grades on secondary
Iowa: Wants to talk over the phone..
South Carolina: Said I would need state ties to be more competitive for an interview
Washington University in St. Louis: They sent me a packet because of my high MCAT score, so I wrote them. They said my app would be considered and that they look for motivation and commitment, but also said that the range of GPAs this year was 3.43-4. (Id assume the lower end is URM, too).
UCSD: Trends are viewed favorably, and more recent performance is better indicative of an applicants abilities.
Buffalo: Told me to apply!
Georgetown: Not helpful, just pointed me to their guide which states a highly competitive applicant will have a 3.6

 

[Catalystik]

I have emailed 20-ish schools and asked how they view a trend in grades. Mich state was very encouraging. Cinci Utah and VTech basically just said they take a holistic approach to the application

Virginia Tech: Said my GPA wouldn't be a hindrance due to MCAT
Wake Forest: Said a trend can sometimes compensate for a low GPA, but alluded to the fact they get 8,000 applicants, and because I am O.O.S. I might be S.O.L.
Vanderbilt: Surprisingly said my MCAT makes me extremely competitive and she (director of admissions) encouraged me to apply. I was totally floored by this, even if she was just being nice, it made my day. Maybe it was because I included a little about why my gpa was low freshman year (football), whereas I didn't in my other emails.
UMKC: Said while my GPA is low they look at trends and my MCAT exceeded their average by a lot (9 pts). They also said they weigh other factors heavily (I'm assuming clinical experience).
KU: Said that strong recent academic performance can make up for a poor performance in the past
Tufts: Literally just said "yes we look at a trend favorably"
Wayne State: The first so far to tell me my GPA would be too low to be competitive (because I am OOS). I appreciate their honesty and this definitely saved me the extra time and effort of applying.

Boston: Not helpful, just said that they look at the whole app but pointed out that their average GPA is around a 3.6
Brown: Again, not very helpful. Advised me to talk to my UG adviser. Said they look at the whole app and that competitive applicants usually have a 3.6 or so
Arizona: Said that a trend wouldn't be looked at until after the interview. (Weird)
George Washington: Encouraged me to explain my trend in my PS
Arizona-Pheonix: Very encouraging, said a trend is positively looked at. Said that the range of accepted was 3.0-4.0, said I should have confidence in my application to their school.
Pittsburgh: Said their range of accepted GPA was 3.1-4, said medical experience was important.
Columbia: Said the entire app is looked at and they will notice how my GPA has improved.
EVMS: Looks at average GPA, not trend. Also couldn't comment on my standing b/c they dont know my clinical experience
FIU: Look at the application 'holistically"
Florida: Strong MCAT doesn't make up for low GPA since they see them as showing two different things. But a poor freshman year wont sink me
Indiana: Look at applicants as a whole, told me to talk to UG adviser
Jefferson: Said I am competitive based on scores
LSU-NO: Said they're average sGPA is 3.6, so they look at science GPA mostly. A trend is considered
SUNY-Upstate: "Certainly note a trend, and a high MCAT helps"
Stony Brook: Looks at the whole application, not just one piece..
Temple: Wouldn't give out any advice
USF: Holistic approach and will have a chance to explain low grades on secondary
Iowa: Wants to talk over the phone..
South Carolina: Said I would need state ties to be more competitive for an interview
Washington University in St. Louis: They sent me a packet because of my high MCAT score, so I wrote them. They said my app would be considered and that they look for motivation and commitment, but also said that the range of GPAs this year was 3.43-4. (Id assume the lower end is URM, too).
UCSD: Trends are viewed favorably, and more recent performance is better indicative of an applicants abilities.
Buffalo: Told me to apply!
Georgetown: Not helpful, just pointed me to their guide which states a highly competitive applicant will have a 3.6

My experience with Iowa is that they give very specific advice about OOS cutoffs, so worth the call.

 

[FutureFACS]

My experience with Iowa is that they give very specific advice about OOS cutoffs, so worth the call.

Yeah Iowa basically said to look into graduate work b/c they are so selective with OOS applicants