How long would It take for a new dentist to pay off their student debt?

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Rvting

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Let's say that after one graduates and gets an entry level dental job. They owe 600k (a bit of a gross exaggeration) in debt but also has the typical salary of 100k after taxes (an under estimation, depends on where you live). What kind of interest are we looking at for the debt and how long will it take a graduate to pay off said debt? I am mainly unaware of the interest rate but I do know that it immediately begins when the loan is taken out, during school.

Realistically speaking, would becoming a military dentist really put a dent in the debt large enough to justify joining the military?

edit: numbers are rough guess-stimates for worst case scenarios

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600K of debt to get a job paying 100K? Nuts. Not sustainable. Military will pay the entire cost of attendance. It isn't for everyone, but it is the only way I would go to a school that costs 600K. There are several forums discussing this very issue on the Dental Student and Practicing Dentists forums.
 
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To clarify a few things: For the upcoming year, the rates are Direct Unsubsidized @6.54% (+1.057% origination fee) and Direct PLUS @7.54% (+4.228%). With that much debt, you'll mostly take Direct Plus and keep in mind that there is a $224K cap on Direct Unsubsidized. Remember, by the time you pay off all the balance on your loan you would pay the principal balance ($600K) and interest accrued (depends on how quickly you pay off, and it's a significant amount of money). Also, there are student loan calculators online for guidance too.
 
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10 years. Working at an FQHC enjoying a chill work environment paying via IBR and then after 120 payments Public Service Loan Forgiveness will forgive the remaining balance tax free.
 
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600K of debt to get a job paying 100K? Nuts. Not sustainable. Military will pay the entire cost of attendance. It isn't for everyone, but it is the only way I would go to a school that costs 600K. There are several forums discussing this very issue on the Dental Student and Practicing Dentists forums.
well, 600k is a upward estimation and the 100K is for entry level after taxes is an estimation (it varies which state you're in). Where as the median salary for a dentist, who doesn't own a practice, is closer to 176k according to salary.com.
 
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well, 600k is a upward estimation and the 100K is for entry level after taxes is an estimation (it varies which state you're in). Where as the median salary for a dentist, who doesn't own a practice, is closer to 176k according to salary.com.
It's a lot higher than that for first year dentists. People were being offered that and more right out of school
 
You’d be looking to earn a lot to offset such loan especially if you have to wait before getting a job.

The system just want to mortgage us, with such money on business or skill investment, you won’t need a job that will pay you rather you’d be hearing workers few years later.
600K of debt to get a job paying 100K after how many years of studying? Nuts.

From wisdomtoothextraction.net
 
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10 years. Working at an FQHC enjoying a chill work environment paying via IBR and then after 120 payments Public Service Loan Forgiveness will forgive the remaining balance tax free.
This would be a good option to pay off your loan while helping the patients who can’t afford to pay for their dental treatments. To get this type of government job, do you have to go to remote areas where most dentists don’t want to live?
 
In order to manage that massive student loan debt and to pay it off in 10 or less years, you’ll need to make at least $300k. If you can’t make that much, your spouse needs to work full time to help contribute. Your spouse doesn’t need to earn a 6-figure income like you….a full time 50-60k job that offers health benefit should help a lot. It’s ok to start out with $120k because most new grad dentists are slow. But you need to work hard to improve your clinical skills so you can double your income in a year or two.

I've been out of school for 21 years. I don’t have any debt right now. I already paid off my home mortgage. But I still need to earn at least $200k a year just to get by. Here is the rough summary of my monthly budget:

- Home property tax/insurance/HOA/landscape and pool maintenace: $2700
- Electric/gas/trash/cellphone/cable tv bills: $1000
- Health insurance (for a family of 4): $1500
- Car lease payment: $1469
- Insurance for 3 cars: $600
- Food: $1000
- Eating out 5-6 times per month: $1000
- College saving for kids: $600 ($300 for each kid, which is not enough)
- Life insurance: $684
- Disability insurance: $150
- Donations: $700
- 401k: $4500
Total: approximately 15-16k per month
 
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In order to manage that massive student loan debt and to pay it off in 10 or less years, you’ll need to make at least $300k. If you can’t make that much, your spouse needs to work full time to help contribute. Your spouse doesn’t need to earn a 6-figure income like you….a full time 50-60k job that offers health benefit should help a lot. It’s ok to start out with $120k because most new grad dentists are slow. But you need to work hard to improve your clinical skills so you can double your income in a year or two.

I've been out of school for 21 years. I don’t have any debt right now. I already paid off my home mortgage. But I still need to earn at least $200k a year just to get by. Here is the rough summary of my monthly budget:

- Home property tax/insurance/HOA/landscape and pool maintenace: $2700
- Electric/gas/trash/cellphone/cable tv bills: $1000
- Health insurance (for a family of 4): $1500
- Car lease payment: $1469
- Insurance for 3 cars: $600
- Food: $1000
- Eating out 5-6 times per month: $1000
- College saving for kids: $600 ($300 for each kid, which is not enough)
- Life insurance: $684
- Disability insurance: $150
- Donations: $700
- 401k: $4500
Total: approximately 15-16k per month
How much are you and your wife earning now that you guys are not full-time?
Are all your leased cars electric? lol... I don't see gas expenses
 
How much are you and your wife earning now that you guys are not full-time?
I don’t have the exact number since our income fluctuates from year to year. I still work full time (19 days/month to be exact) because I want to make sure that the total income (including the passive income) is at least 2x as much as my spending budget. My wife also works a few days a month. Our net passive income from all of our rental properties is only around $6-7k/month, which is not even enough to cover half of the spending budget.
Are all your leased cars electric? lol... I don't see gas expenses
No. We only have 1 electric car that I use for my daily commute. I bought and paid off the Tesla model S and my son’s used Lexus ES350 because they are both very reliable cars. I lease the BMW X7 (since it’s not very reliable) and use it as our family car….my wife drives it most of the time.
I don't see gas expenses
Yeah, I forgot to include the gasoline cost, which is about $3-400 a month. My son has just finished HS and he doesn’t drive much. His car will be kept inside the garage most of the time when he moves away for college this coming Fall. There are a few more expenses that I forgot to include on the list above. The monthly budget used to be in the 24-25k range. We have downgraded a lot in the last couple of years. We sold our house and moved into a smaller one. We used to lease 2 cars and now we only lease 1. We used to help both of our parents (mine and my wife’s) to pay for parts of their home mortgages. We used to have a lot of debts (we bought a couple of rental properties) to pay back. I used to work 23-24 days a month.
 
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10 years. Working at an FQHC enjoying a chill work environment paying via IBR and then after 120 payments Public Service Loan Forgiveness will forgive the remaining balance tax free.
Do you currently work at an FQHC?

I would not classify the ones we work with as a chill environment but maybe it’s different in each place. Seems like a ton of red tape, lots of challenging pts that need Tx they can’t afford and isn’t covered. And a rotating door of doctors
 
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Let's say that after one graduates and gets an entry level dental job. They owe 600k (a bit of a gross exaggeration) in debt but also has the typical salary of 100k after taxes (an under estimation, depends on where you live). What kind of interest are we looking at for the debt and how long will it take a graduate to pay off said debt? I am mainly unaware of the interest rate but I do know that it immediately begins when the loan is taken out, during school.

Realistically speaking, would becoming a military dentist really put a dent in the debt large enough to justify joining the military?

edit: numbers are rough guess-stimates for worst case scenarios
Those numbers are not inaccurate for many dental school tuitions and new grad salaries.
 
I agree with Periodont, the numbers are not the "upward estimation" that you present them to be. After 4 years of interest accruing while you are in school, you may be square in that neighborhood before you know it. Yes yes I know federal loans don't accrue during school but private loans do. If any of you haven't perused the other dental forums on this topic, I encourage you to do so.
 
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Federal loans do accrue while you are in school and then they capitalize when you start your payback period
 
Those numbers are not inaccurate for many dental school tuitions and new grad salaries.
"not inaccurate" so are they really that common? Or do you mean they are very uncommon? Just double checking if you meant that double negative.
 
"not inaccurate" so are they really that common? Or do you mean they are very uncommon? Just double checking if you meant that double negative.
I mean those numbers are accurate and are very common nowadays not exaggerations.

After taxes you likely will be making 100k first year out especially. After 4 years of dental school at many schools you will be in 600k. Modern day debtistry. I would not go into the field for this level of educational cost anymore.
 
I mean those numbers are accurate and are very common nowadays not exaggerations.

After taxes you likely will be making 100k first year out especially. After 4 years of dental school at many schools you will be in 600k. Modern day debtistry. I would not go into the field for this level of educational cost anymore.
Would joining the military really make that much of a difference?

I kinda feel exploited by the government if that's the case.
 
I did the 4 year HPSP scholarship and graduated with NO debt. Seriously. It is a good deal and as the cost of attendance goes up, it will only be a better deal. How would you feel exploited by the gov if you are getting a huge scholarship for a 4-5 year commitment?
 
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I did the 4 year HPSP scholarship and graduated with NO debt. Seriously. It is a good deal and as the cost of attendance goes up, it will only be a better deal. How would you feel exploited by the gov if you are getting a huge scholarship for a 4-5 year commitment?
well, the government has to know that guaranteed loans are jacking up the prices of colleges, right? And the best way to pay off the debt is to join a government/military based program to realistically pay off the debt? Doubt this phenomenon is just for dental school/dentists but the medical field at large. Not too sure if this was the intended purpose of the guaranteed loans program but it sure has lead to this.

Edit: essentially saying that med students face the ultimatum of joining the military for a debt short cut or become a debt slave.
 
***Big Time Hoosier has entered the chat.***

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Big Hoss
 
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I don’t know if I want to share with someone who thinks it’s okay to borrow $600,000 to become a dentist.

Big Hoss
jokes aside, no I don't. Its why I'm asking questions on how to deal with it.
 
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I'm asking questions on how to deal with it.
Realistically, you have two options:

1) Fake your death and flee to a non-extradition country.

2) Pay $4,600 per month for 20 years, assuming you owe $600,000. That number jumps to $5,800 per month for the unfortunate graduates from places like NYU or USC that owe $750,000.

Big Hoss
 
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Realistically, you have two options:

1) Fake your death and flee to a non-extradition country.

2) Pay $4,600 per month for 20 years, assuming you owe $600,000. That number jumps to $5,800 per month for the unfortunate graduates from places like NYU or USC that owe $750,000.

Big Hoss
I’d rather work like a dog to pay back the massive student loan debt than living in another country. USA is #1.
 
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It is a good deal
Sure, the Health Professions (indentured) Servitude Program is a good deal financially, but not great if you have no desire whatsoever to wear a uniform and serve your country. No financial reward will be worth it then. But like you said, it's not for everyone, so I will agree with you on this.

However if you are okay with serving, you still have to focus on your FITREPs and collaterals. The priority for good patient care will always be on the back burner. All the physicians and dentists I've worked alongside with who did HPSP when I was in absolutely hated the program, and the only positive thing they had to say was that they were financially going to be okay afterwards. Sure, it was a lot of "grass is greener on the outside" ("oh my colleagues in my surgical specialty/dental field are making so much more than me and they don't have to put up with any BS like I do" type of thing), but I still think it's important to note that yes, it is a financially savvy thing to do, but it's just as important to tell us aspiring pre-dents that it's not for everyone as well. I feel that point isn't as well made on these forums as it should, in my very humble opinion. A surgeon once told me that I should never let patient care get in the way of good admin, and he was right. So if you go to dental school and end up hating dentistry and love the idea of promoting by ditching patient care and doing collaterals that mean jack squat in the big picture, then yes, HPSP is the best thing in the world.

I mean I like the backwards way that I'm doing it: already had a career, joined the military just to serve and not for financial reasons, got out with VA benefits and some life experience, and now wants to change careers, so I'm obviously biased against HPSP and that should be taken into account with my post.
Pay $4,600 per month...$5,800 per month
That first number, in a year, is more money than a lot of Americans make in a year. That second number, in a year, is well more than half of my yearly income right now, and I consider myself well off for my educational level. Y'all are nuts to try to pay that off if you go down that route.
I’d rather work like a dog to pay back the massive student loan debt than living in another country. USA is #1.
That's because you've lived somewhere else and can truly appreciate what this country has to offer. Someone like me, who immigrated here very young, it gets very easy to forget one's roots and how much better off we have it here. Far from perfect, yes, but still pretty good living.
 
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Would you happen to know if a 2-year HPSP is worth it? Im seeing on other forums that people aren't happy with it. I kinda wanna do part HPSP and part Income driven repayment.
I don’t even know if they still offer a 2 year scholarship. If they do, it comes with a 3 year active duty obligation. Does that sound like a good deal to you?

The military has proposed significantly reducing the number of health care providers in its ranks. Their thinking is why not just send service members stateside out to the civilian healthcare market? Combine that with the skyrocketing cost of attendance, and the HPSP is becoming extremely hard to get. Someone posted on here that the average DAT for the Navy recently was 23-24. Back in the early/mid 2000s they couldn’t give the scholarships away, largely because you were pretty much guaranteed to get sent to Iraq or Afghanistan to be a cog in the military-industrial-complex machine. Now, deployments are way down and tuition is way up. One simply cannot count on getting the HPSP.

As @PerioDont has pointed out, you don’t have to apply to these absurdly expensive dental schools. In my opinion, if you can’t get into a “reasonably” expensive school, dentistry isn’t your thing and it’s time to move on. The alternative is to become a debt donkey for a huge chunk of your life.

494C81C3-33C9-48B3-86D5-3215C7B7E073.jpeg


Big Hoss
 
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I don’t even know if they still offer a 2 year scholarship. If they do, it comes with a 3 year active duty obligation. Does that sound like a good deal to you?

The military has proposed significantly reducing the number of health care providers in its ranks. Their thinking is why not just send service members stateside out to the civilian healthcare market? Combine that with the skyrocketing cost of attendance, and the HPSP is becoming extremely hard to get. Someone posted on here that the average DAT for the Navy recently was 23-24. Back in the early/mid 2000s they couldn’t give the scholarships away, largely because you were pretty much guaranteed to get sent to Iraq or Afghanistan to be a cog in the military-industrial-complex machine. Now, deployments are way down and tuition is way up. One simply cannot count on getting the HPSP.

As @PerioDont has pointed out, you don’t have to apply to these absurdly expensive dental schools. In my opinion, if you can’t get into a “reasonably” expensive school, dentistry isn’t your thing and it’s time to move on. The alternative is to become a debt donkey for a huge chunk of your life.


Big Hoss
One last question: what exactly is this 'tax-bomb' I'm hearing about from the income-driven repayment plan? Because paying 10-20% of my income won't be that bad in a 'no income tax' state for a few decades.

Fed will still tax ~18%, however
 
One last question: what exactly is this 'tax-bomb' I'm hearing about from the income-driven repayment plan? Because paying 10-20% of my income won't be that bad in a 'no income tax' state for a few decades.

Fed will still tax ~18%, however
The forgiven balance on these income-based plans will be considered as taxable income. That will be a huge tax bill, hence the tax bomb.

That's great you plan to only pay 10-20% of your income annually on your student loans. What happens when that amount doesn't cover even your accrued interest? Your loans snowball and you turn into Mike Meru. You don't want to be Mike Meru.

Big Hoss
 
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The forgiven balance on these income-based plans will be considered as taxable income. That will be a huge tax bill, hence the tax bomb.

That's great you plan to only pay 10-20% of your income annually on your student loans. What happens when that amount doesn't cover even your accrued interest? Your loans snowball and you turn into Mike Meru. You don't want to be Mike Meru.

Big Hoss
So, would it look like this? I get taxed based on an 'income' of 572,043$ (which isn't including base income)? How much will that cost me?

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I put out an excel sheet like 5 years ago that estimated total cost of attendance of every program in the country including the interest that grows on the money while you sit in school. Have to keep in mind that if the school shows you 422k in total loans over 4 years that the reality is that by the time you begin to pay it off that it will likely be closer to 600k.
 
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I put out an excel sheet like 5 years ago that estimated total cost of attendance of every program in the country including the interest that grows on the money while you sit in school. Have to keep in mind that if the school shows you 422k in total loans over 4 years that the reality is that by the time you begin to pay it off that it will likely be closer to 600k.
Thanks and appreciate the thought, but I made sure to take that into account with a compound interest calculator. Loan 1 is calculated for 4 years of interest, L2 is 3 years and so on. My initial tuition cost is based on New England, where I want to go, which costs ~408,600$. Hopefully, I am not misinterpreting the acquisition of loans but please correct me if I am.

Edit: miscalculated (I think), comes out to 487k for total cost not just tuition based on Dental School Exp- based on 7% monthly interest.

Edit 2: calculating just for tuition it comes to 250K, but again there are many other costs especially as there are no dorms.
 
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Thanks and appreciate the thought, but I made sure to take that into account with a compound interest calculator. Loan 1 is calculated for 4 years of interest, L2 is 3 years and so on. My initial tuition cost is based on New England, where I want to go, which costs ~408,600$. Hopefully, I am not misinterpreting the acquisition of loans but please correct me if I am.

Edit: miscalculated (I think), comes out to 487k for total cost not just tuition based on Dental School Exp- based on 7% monthly interest.

Edit 2: calculating just for tuition it comes to 250K, but again there are many other costs especially as there are no dorms.
Don’t forget about the annual tuition increases you’ll get to enjoy!

Big Hoss
 
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Riveting, all sarcasm and joking aside, you have been given some good advice from experienced military veterans and private practice docs alike. We are just trying to warn you that it isn't all rainbows and unicorns. It will likely be much harder to pay it all off than you think. Come up with what you think will be a realistic scenario, then throw in an error factor of 20-30% and recalculate. That or join the military.
 
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Thanks and appreciate the thought, but I made sure to take that into account with a compound interest calculator. Loan 1 is calculated for 4 years of interest, L2 is 3 years and so on. My initial tuition cost is based on New England, where I want to go, which costs ~408,600$. Hopefully, I am not misinterpreting the acquisition of loans but please correct me if I am.

Edit: miscalculated (I think), comes out to 487k for total cost not just tuition based on Dental School Exp- based on 7% monthly interest.

Edit 2: calculating just for tuition it comes to 250K, but again there are many other costs especially as there are no dorms.
So about 500k to become a general dentist.

I cannot in good conscience advice someone to pursue that choice.

I agree with Roto, plan for 20-30% error if not more.
 
Also, if you haven't already applied, I would only apply to schools that you think you can afford. Don't waste time or money on schools you wouldn't think of going to because of the price tag. What happens when USC is the only school you get into? Then you are in a hard spot deciding after the fact. When I applied, the shotgun model was the name of the game. Apply to as many as you could and hope that one came through. And that was only in 2009.
 
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If you spend 500-600k to go to dental school (maybe even 400k depending on circumstances) you can realistically expect to NOT be able to pay it back.

Student loans get paid dead last. Most young kids just don’t get that.
 
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If you spend 500-600k to go to dental school (maybe even 400k depending on circumstances) you can realistically expect to NOT be able to pay it back.

Student loans get paid dead last. Most young kids just don’t get that.
From conversations I’ve had with young dentists, most single dentists can’t pay back 300k.

If married to a non-professional working spouse making 50-100k a year and you can use spouses benefits for medical insurance, most dentists have a have a hard time handling 300k, but you can with some trade offs. If you spend more than 1x your AGI it just gets hard to repay. At 2x AGI, you’re probably going through IDR.

These are just gross generalizations. Your mileage may vary.
 
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Agree with many comments above 👆

As a student, I never understood how little of your salary ends up in your bank account at the end of the month. So these pre-dents probably see “starting salary 130k” and imagine most of that going towards paying off debt each year.

Taxes kill us, way more than most students can imagine. Then take out all the other payroll taxes. Take out a huge chunk for health insurance and premiums. Take out rent and utilities (guess what, no one wants to room with you past age 25). Take out money for a car and gas. Take out food. There’s not much left at the end of the month. With 500k debt, there’s probably not even enough to cover interest payments some months. I am constantly being charged money for things I never imagined as a student - Malpractice insurance, state licenses, plumbers, tax agents, etc.

And that’s for a single bachelor without kids. I can’t imagine how much kids with daycare or ladies with expectations cost each month.
 
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Last comment and I’ll let this rest, students need to understand that their ability to repay their student loans mostly depends on their income during years 0-5 and to a less degree years 5-10.


When you buy a practice that nets 250k for the owner, your net after debt service and before taxes will be around 180k give or take, until you either pay of your practice loan or grow the practice. Both take time, and during that time hour student loan balance grows at a simple rate of interest.
 
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No professional school (med, dent, yale law school) is worth even 500k. Period.
 
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Funny enough your comment on Yale law school made me look up the cost, with room and board, all in this year is 97k. Far better investment of time and money than 130k+ for dental
 
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The fact we are discussing if $600k in student debt is doable is absurd.

The short answer is it depends on the borrower. If you become an associate dentist and you expect to make $150-250k/yr average for the first 2 decades of your career, then I would say No. Keep in mind that I said “average”. Income is not guaranteed, you will work hard for your boss and put your back into it. Inflation is also against that income with high cost of living squeezing your savings and purchase power. But that’s a whole different topic.

If you open a practice… then yes. But be ready for stress and sweat to grow the practice and make higher income as a result. $300-400k average. Again average depends on factoring your hours and start to peak growth. No dentist makes exact same income every year. Everyone is very motivated at young age, but as they age… well… ask older dentists over the age 45 if they want to work more than 3-4 days a week.

I’m looking towards a thread asking if 700k debt is doable next year!
 
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From conversations I’ve had with young dentists, most single dentists can’t pay back 300k.
I find that surprising to hear. The first 4 years out I averaged around 200k as an associate or ~$10,500/mo after taxes. The corp I worked at provided benefits, mal practice, and disability. On a 5 year repayment plan ($5,600/month) you would have ~4900/month left, or $58,800 per year of aftertax money for living. To put this in perspective, the average income in the US is 60k pretax. Assuming that you graduate dental school at 26, you could be a debt free earning >200k/yr at 31. That's not so bad, really.
 
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