How much can a new dentist expect to earn if they don't do a GPR/AEGD?

[allDAT]

When I graduated in 2010, the offers were EXACTLY the same. I believe the same offers will be made to new grads 10 years from now.

Any discussion on incomes, specially first year out of school, should be had with inflation in mind. I have a friend who went back to school to specialize in Endo couple of years ago, to boost his GP income from $180k to $400k a year. He is graduating this summer. Not only did he forfeit 2 years of general dentist income ($400k) and took more debt in student loans ($300k), his goal to make $400k/year in Endo back in 2019 is actually worth little less today - maybe $380k and declining due to inflation. Exhibit A: Housing cost. Exhibit B: Everything else has gone up. Inflation is the invisible tax.

Housing, student loans, cost of practices, and everything else as you suggested is much more expensive. My apartment in 2010 in La Jolla, CA cost $1100/month. Today the same studio is starting at $1950/month.

Dentist's real incomes have gone way down over the last decade. Dentists need to act more like hygienists and refuse to work for lower-paying jobs. You must develop a plan to own the office f you're a general dentist.

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[Cold Front]

Housing, student loans, cost of practices, and everything else as you suggested is much more expensive. My apartment in 2010 in La Jolla, CA cost $1100/month. Today the same studio is starting at $1950/month.

Dentist's real incomes have gone way down over the last decade. Dentists need to act more like hygienists and refuse to work for lower-paying jobs. You must develop a plan to own the office f you're a general dentist.

Yes! This is what I’ve been saying for years on these forums. Average dentist income are going down. $200k is not what it was 10 or 20 yrs ago. There are a lot of internal and external forces, both in the dental world (DSOs and insurances) and the real world (larger economy) that have direct and indirect impact on dentist salaries. We are not immune to those pressures. It’s not hypothetical. It’s reality.

There was a time when the antidote was “work harder”, now the conversation is “don’t apply to most dental schools to stay out of insane debt”. Eventually it will be “dentistry is not worth it financially” in the foreseeable future.

 

[charlestweed]

Yep. My pay rate is the SAME for the last 4 yrs of working for this DSO. If I want to make more money ... I need to work harder (more starts). I remember in private practice .... we would analyze our fee schedule and RAISE the fees every year to counter inflation. When offices lower their fees .... its the double whammy. Higher inflation. Lower revenue.

Working as an employee is not going to build wealth unless you place your discretionary money into equities or investments.

My daily pay at the corp has been the same in the last 10-15 years as well. My bonuses had declined sharply during the 2008 recession but they have gotten much better in recent years. I started my very first office in 2006 and I haven’t raised the tx fees at my own offices either.

Yeah, you have to invest to fight against the inflation rate. The good thing about dentistry is you can make money fast. Just make a few sacrifices (ie living with the parents or a roommate, eating rice and beans, driving the same old car etc) and BAM! you have $100k in your saving account after 6-12 months of working 6 days/wk at an office that pays $600 a day. Use this $100k as a down payment for a $500k investment home. Let the tenants pay the mortgages and taxes and 20-30 years later, you either sell it and gain a nice profit or give it to your kids. Banks love dentists and doctors.

Now that I am 100% debt free and have some extra cash to start investing in Bitcoin. I am totally clueless about this. I just followed my sister’s advice. My sister entered the Bitcoin market when it was only $5k per coin. When I started in February, it was $47k per coin. It’s $60k now...I am super excited.

 

[yappy]

Working as an employee is not going to build wealth unless you place your discretionary money into equities or investments.

I agree. Many of my coworker's income goes straight to payments (student loans, large mortgage, cars, vacation, etc.). I think if they were owners they could better adsorb the lifestyle costs and manage their debts better. As a employee something has got to give. I recognized this as a new graduate a few years ago and decided to pay off my 200k+ in student loans ASAP, which was possible on my DSO income. I did not do a residency.
I now live on 30% of my aftertax income and save/invest the rest. I didn't have connections or ties to other high paying career paths so I'm pretty content with this. I think within 10 years post graduation I will be financially independent if I maintain this. I'm not bragging because my "lifestyle" is nothing to brag about. However, if you're a hard working lower-middle-class kid like me who likes direct patient care, specifically dentistry, then you can do okay in dentistry. I recommend not going into more than 300k in debt.

 

[Cold Front]

I agree. Many of my coworker's income goes straight to payments (student loans, large mortgage, cars, vacation, etc.). I think if they were owners they could better adsorb the lifestyle costs and manage their debts better. As a employee something has got to give. I recognized this as a new graduate a few years ago and decided to pay off my 200k+ in student loans ASAP, which was possible on my DSO income. I did not do a residency.
I now live on 30% of my aftertax income and save/invest the rest. I didn't have connections or ties to other high paying career paths so I'm pretty content with this. I think within 10 years post graduation I will be financially independent if I maintain this. I'm not bragging because my "lifestyle" is nothing to brag about. However, if you're a hard working lower-middle-class kid like me who likes direct patient care, specifically dentistry, then you can do okay in dentistry. I recommend not going into more than 300k in debt.

There is a deep and bitter indignation at having been treated unfairly by student debt among new grads. The majority of older generation dentists are oblivious to the issue.

It’s almost like MLK discussing Civil Rights in the 1960s to a nation that didn’t understand the topic.

Time will tell.

 

[yappy]

There is a deep and bitter indignation at having been treated unfairly by student debt among new grads. The majority of older generation dentists are oblivious to the issue.

It’s almost like MLK discussing Civil Rights in the 1960s to a nation that didn’t understand the topic.

Time will tell.

I agree with the former but not the latter. For most, there is no one to blame but themselves. We need to settle our own debts and own our life choices. Paying off debt is possible through hard work, budgeting, and time. But most importantly these loans and costly career paths are voluntary.

 

[Cold Front]

But most importantly these loans and costly career paths are voluntary.

Voluntary for people with almost 0 financial knowledge. I would say it’s opportunistic and deceiving by programs. No bank will give an applicant a home mortgage they could struggle paying. Schools know very well their applicants are naive young kids, majority in their 19-22 age group, predominantly majored in science related fields in undergrad. There should be a “financial knowledge” component on the DAT - which is clearly a big factor in practicing dentistry these days. Their biggest adult life financial decision. The government is the real enforcer in the picture. That’s why I think the federal student loan repayment plans will continue to be frozen for another year.

 

[charlestweed]

We, older dentists, are fully aware of the high student loan debt that the young grads are facing right now. In fact, the majority of the colleagues (who are around my age) on the Orthotown forum think it’s not worth pursuing this profession anymore. I am one of the few members who disagree with them and I continue to recommend dentistry (and medicine) because there aren’t any better alternative career options out there. Dentistry offers job stability and a chance to become a practice owner. I’d rather be a dentist/doctor with $5-600k debt than having a non-science degree (mba, finance, history, music etc) with $1-200k debt. During the housing market crash in 2008, a lot of the people in my neighborhood lost their jobs and their houses. Guess who bought those foreclosed houses? Dentists and doctors. My new neighbor on the left is a general dentist. My new neighbor on the right is an ER doc. The neighbor across from my house is an endodontist. During that housing buble period, banks were more hesitant to lend the money to home buyers but they continued to approve loans for dentists and doctors. That’s because dentists and doctors were able to prove to the banks that they have stable jobs and can pay bills.

A lot of young students (ortho patients, friends’ kids, nieces, nephews etc) have asked me about dentistry and whether it is worth pursuing or not. Because I am aware of the debt and oversaturation (especially in SoCal) problems, I don’t usually give them a straight “Yes” answer. I don’t know if they have good enough grades/DAT scores to get into cheap state schools. I don’t know if they will be willing to work 6 days/week like what I did after graduation. I don’t know if they’ll be willing to work in bare bone low overhead office like me or not. I don’t know if they are willing to treat low income patients and accept Medicaid or not. So my answer to them is yes, if:

1. You keep the student loan debt as low as possible. Go to a cheap undergrad college for free. Earn good grades and try to get into cheap dental school.
2. Don’t be picky about the job offers. Work hard to gain the experience and to reduce the debt in half in 2-3 years. And then start a small low overhead office.
3. You have to start your career at early age (in the mid 20s) in order to have enough time to pay off loans and to build wealth. Don’t take a gap year. In the past when dental education was much cheaper, people could start dental school in their late 30s and still did fine. You can’t do this anymore.
4. Take good care of your patients and your practice will grow.
5. Have a good marriage. Mary someone who has the same strong work ethic like you. You don’t have to assume all the responsibilities in supporting your family. Let the spouse help you. One of the leading causes of divorce is MONEY.

If you can't accumulate total assets that are worth more than $1 million after practicing dentistry for 25-30 years, there must be something wrong with you. There must be something wrong with your clinical skills that prevent you from getting good paying associate jobs. There must be something wrong with the work ethic. There must be something wrong with the spending habit.