"If you don't have an interview invitation by Thanksgiving, you're in trouble"

[catie_jane]

We may not like the environment, but we have to adjust to what it is.

I don't think the choice is "super early" or "normal." In my cycle year, I couldn't apply "super early," but I was able to be complete in early September. I felt that was "almost late," but I wasn't applying to any NE or Calif schools where being "super early" may be more important.

So as a fellow late August/mid-September completer, did you not receive any interviews after thanksgiving? (with the exception of your state school as you mentioned)

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[FreckleFart99]

(see below)





It may be somewhat "normal speed," but in a highly competitive environment, why aid for normal speed? This cycle, we've seen many applicants report early IIs and receiving acceptances the first allowable date in October.

Thing is when someone calls something normal speed I don't naturally conflate that with "so late that if you don't have IIs within 2 months you won't be going to medical school". If that's the scenario applying in September puts you in, why would anyone call that normal, considering that normally we want to get into medical school on this forum?

 

[SOMBound13]

So as a fellow late August/mid-September completer, did you not receive any interviews after thanksgiving? (with the exception of your state school as you mentioned)

Yes...the other IIs were issued in early/mid October (I think one was issued in late Sept).

Much is going to depend on you, your stats, your story, and your app list. The state school that I mentioned is a small SOM, and it kind of runs the app process like a small mom&pop business (IMHO). I don't mean that in a demeaning way, it's just that some things were done (and I've heard are still done), in a slow and old-fashioned manner...sending secondaries and paper check to their office directly, for instance. Acceptances by snail mail, as well. The process seemed (to me) to be very different than other SOMs, but that may just be a naive perspective. This SOM is also male-heavy, so that also seemed to influence the timing of II's.

 

[Birdness]

I have 2 II, 4 rejections, and 2 holds. I have radio silence from 9 others. At this point, how many more interviews should I expect. Complete mostly early to mid August in the schools I haven't heard from. My stats are 3.1 first undergrad in Business, 3.86 second undergrad in Biology, and 3.83 sGPA. MY MCAT is 31. Very good ECs and LOR.

 

[SOMBound13]

Thing is when someone calls something normal speed I don't naturally conflate that with "so late that if you don't have IIs within 2 months you won't be going to medical school". If that's the scenario applying in September puts you in, why would anyone call that normal, considering that normally we want to get into medical school on this forum?

Some may call it "normal," because it is normal for their list of schools. It was normal for those applying to my state's SOMs. Each SOM behaves in its own way, on its own schedule. It's not a cookie-cutter process.

I think that the need to "apply early" is still not known very well out there in application land. My cousin thought that I was ridiculously early for submitting when I did. She had her eyes on the deadlines, much like the undergrad app process. She had two failed cycles, likely applying average-to-late sunk her.

 

[SOMBound13]

I have 2 II, 4 rejections, and 2 holds. I have radio silence from 9 others. At this point, how many more interviews should I expect. Complete mostly early to mid August in the schools I haven't heard from. My stats are 3.1 first undergrad in Business, 3.86 second undergrad in Biology, and 3.83 sGPA. MY MCAT is 31. Very good ECs and LOR.

Have you heard from any instate publics? Is your MCAT balanced? What are you seeing in the threads for the 9 cricket schools? How do your stats fit with those schools?

You're showing two undergrad cum GPAs. Wouldn't those combine into one cGPA? If so, what is that GPA?

 

[Birdness]

Have you heard from any instate publics? Is your MCAT balanced? What are you seeing in the threads for the 9 cricket schools? How do your stats fit with those schools?

You're showing two undergrad cum GPAs. Wouldn't those combine into one cGPA? If so, what is that GPA?

cGPA is 3.48, but think second one is more relevant. MCAT is 10-10-11. The schools I'm waiting on are mostly private one across the country. One of II is from a state school.

 

[Birdness]

My stats are in the median for the schools I'm waiting on.

 

[LizzyM]

For what it's worth, my friend got 5/6 of her invites after Thanksgiving last year.

I'm sure that's not the norm though.

The point is, she had one II before Thanksgiving.

 

[LizzyM]

I seriously hope this is incorrect. The seemingly common method to 'hold until March (or next application cycle) when we will reject you' paired with the fact that many schools won't provide feedback leaves applicants with little idea how to improve, and no reasonable amount of time to improve or plan for the coming year.

If I'm still 'under review' at 19 school (who have rejected people with higher and lower LizzyM's, complete before and after me) and no one extends an II, or they wait until Feb to reject me, I'll reach a new high for amusement with this process. I'm not envious of the adcom position (I think it would be challenging to pick from so many applicants that are probably qualified), but the lack of communication/transparency between schools and applicants adds a layer of anxiety to the process that I think could be reduced for the benefit of applicants (in terms of learning their fate sooner, providing more time to make a improvements, etc). Oh well...

Good luck everyone! I'm remaining hopeful...

Just as they say in sales, "always be closing" you should always be improving. And if you don't know how you could improve, you lack insight.

 

[familyaerospace]

There is a reason for the verbal section on the MCAT (what do they call that now?)

If you apply to at least 13 schools and not even one of those schools has offered you an interview invite by Thanksgiving, there is a good likelihood, I think-- based on no data but just a gut instinct -- that you may not get any interviews at all. (I'd love to hear anecdotes to the contrary -- applicants who received their first interview invite after Thanksgiving.)

Last cycle, I had one II offered in Jan and another in Feb. Last interview day for both. ;-) Granted I had interviewed at both two times prior.

 

[FreckleFart99]

For what it's worth, my friend got 5/6 of her invites after Thanksgiving last year.

I'm sure that's not the norm though.

Well I have one II so far so let's hope that'll turn into another 5 like your friend!

 

[SOMBound13]

tunicaexterna said: ↑
For what it's worth, my friend got 5/6 of her invites after Thanksgiving last year.

I'm sure that's not the norm though

The point is, she had one II before Thanksgiving.

@LizzyM is right. Your friend had an II before Thanksgiving. That suggests that her app isn't one that everyone is going to move to the "do not interview" (aka: reject) pile.

 

[Cotterpin]

The point is, she had one II before Thanksgiving.

So what are you saying? I was complete at "normal" speed (in early/mid Septemeber), got 2 II's before Thanksgiving and I'm still waiting to hear back from ten schools. Is that a bad sign? Should I assume that I won't get any more II's or should I hold out hope for the others?

 

[SOMBound13]

So what are you saying? I was complete at "normal" speed (in early/mid Septemeber), got 2 II's before Thanksgiving and I'm still waiting to hear back from ten schools. Is that a bad sign? Should I assume that I won't get any more II's or should I hold out hope for the others?

I can't speak for @LizzyM , but I think she's saying that your app has already passed the "smell test" of at least 1 school (in your case, 2 schools), so you might get more II's.

Of course, if your remaining schools are the type who fill spots early, then your chances are low. What are the school-specific threads for your remaining schools saying?

 

[Cotterpin]

I can't speak for @LizzyM , but I think she's saying that your app has already passed the "smell test" of at least 1 school (in your case, 2 schools), so you might get more II's.

Of course, if your remaining schools are the type who fill spots early, then your chances are low. What are the school-specific threads for your remaining schools saying?

You can look at my mdapps to see which ones I have yet to hear from. I can't really tell from the threads which ones are filling up faster. Obviously, the non-rolling, top tier, reach schools might not be filled already, but god knows if I have any kind of shot at those. I really want to hear back from Georgetown and Einstein. Einstein seems to be going hella slow.

 

[piii]

There is a reason for the verbal section on the MCAT (what do they call that now?)

If you apply to at least 13 schools and not even one of those schools has offered you an interview invite by Thanksgiving, there is a good likelihood, I think-- based on no data but just a gut instinct -- that you may not get any interviews at all. (I'd love to hear anecdotes to the contrary -- applicants who received their first interview invite after Thanksgiving.)

This is going to make the No II thread implode

 

[FreckleFart99]

So applying in September is only minimally detrimental if you are a good candidate, and if you are a good candidate, someone, somewhere, would have given you an II by Thanksgiving? If that is the case I can see the reasoning behind that speculation but I still don't understand what @gonnif was saying that September is "normal".

 

[SOMBound13]

You can look at my mdapps to see which ones I have yet to hear from. I can't really tell from the threads which ones are filling up faster. Obviously, the non-rolling, top tier, reach schools might not be filled already, but god knows if I have any kind of shot at those. I really want to hear back from Georgetown and Einstein. Einstein seems to be going hella slow.

Looked at your mdapps. I can see why you were shocked not to get a secondary from one of your instate SOMs when your stats are more than worthy. Almost seems like a mistake. Does this school usually screen for secondaries?

I don't understand why you haven't had better results. You applied early, your stats are very good, you attended a top undergrad... I see that one of your instate schools has shown you some love. Are your stats too high for that school? If so, I think the school will eventually accept you if it later sees that you don't have other acceptances. Is this a school that often goes to its WL?

You're a non-trad; are you a reapplicant?

How do you feel that the first interview went? When do you go for the second? Do you feel prepared? Do you know its mission and its history? Do you know about the city?

 

[LizzyM]

So applying in September is only minimally detrimental if you are a good candidate, and if you are a good candidate, someone, somewhere, would have given you an II by Thanksgiving? If that is the case I can see the reasoning behind that speculation but I still don't understand what @gonnif was saying that September is "normal".

Keep in mind that to some people "normal" means "average" and keep in mind, too, that fewer than half of all applicants get admitted. Fewer than half of all URM applicants are admitted, fewer than half ORM applicants are admitted, and, I dare say, that fewer than half of all applicants in every state in the union are admitted (North Dakota appears to be an exception -- anyone with the time to examine AAMC Tables 3 and 4 and find the others is welcome to do so).

 

[Cotterpin]

Looked at your mdapps. I can see why you were shocked not to get a secondary from one of your instate SOMs when your stats are more than worthy. Almost seems like a mistake. Does this school usually screen for secondaries?

I don't understand why you haven't had better results. You applied early, your stats are very good, you attended a top undergrad... I see that one of your instate schools has shown you some love. Are your stats too high for that school? If so, I think the school will eventually accept you if it later sees that you don't have other acceptances. Is this a school that often goes to its WL?

You're a non-trad; are you a reapplicant?

How do you feel that the first interview went? When do you go for the second? Do you feel prepared? Do you know its mission and its history? Do you know about the city?

I didn't actually apply early. I submitted my AMCAS at an okay time, but then I waited on my MCAT score before I assigned my app to my school list. I wanted to know what I was working with and be sure I had an appropriate selection of schools before I spent all that money. So I got my MCAT score in mid August and then started submitting secondaries after that. I was complete by the middle of September. So I think that's probably my biggest problem. I'm not a reapplicant or anything.

I felt pretty good about the first interview, but I know that doesn't necessarily mean anything. The second one is in a couple of weeks and I feel like I'll be better for that one. I'll definitely do more research on the school between now and then. I've done some mock interviews with the premed committee at my undergrad and they were very happy with my performance. They said I come off as very genuine and personable and that, in person, I match with everything I wrote about myself in my essays. (Even if I'm prickly on the Internet, I'm really nice in real life! I swear! )

Thanks for all of your help, by the way. I really appreciate it.

 

[GrapesofRath]

https://www.aamc.org/download/321466/data/factstable5.pdf

Since someone is going to ask, it's 5 states. Vermont, North Dakota, Alabama, Kentucky and West Virginia where over half of applicants are admitted. Crazy thing here is about 2/3 of West Virginia applicants get into an MD school. Over 55% into either WVU or Marshall. Just insane to imagine that over 65% of applicants from a state can get into a US MD school, particularly when West Virginia applicants on average have some of the lower MCAT averages out of any state and their applicants.

And yes it's ok if you googled "WV residency requirements" within 10 seconds of reading this.

 

[Cotterpin]

West Virginia needs doctors, I guess.

 

[asdfjkl2016]

.

 

[Lancer]

@LizzyM/anyone else who might know
Do schools ever hold out on IIs because they want to see your fall grades? I was complete late July and got 2 II's early, but 3 rejections and 14 silences since (9/14 have sent out rejections). My GPA was very low freshman year but jumped significantly soph/junior year - is it possible that the silent schools want to make sure I maintain those grades?
For some context I have a 94-96th percentile balanced old MCAT and go to a deflating top 15, decent ECs, and have been driving myself crazy trying to explain this silence.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think schools see your fall semester grades, since you don't re-submit your transcript to AMCAS. Only schools that accept you may want to see your fall semester grades to make sure you're not flunking.

 

[Holmwood]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think schools see your fall semester grades, since you don't re-submit your transcript to AMCAS. Only schools that accept you may want to see your fall semester grades to make sure you're not flunking.

Nah, some schools talk about putting new grades with update letters. You might be talking about conditional acceptance.

 

[SOMBound13]

Thing is when someone calls something normal speed I don't naturally conflate that with "so late that if you don't have IIs within 2 months you won't be going to medical school". If that's the scenario applying in September puts you in, why would anyone call that normal, considering that normally we want to get into medical school on this forum?

I think that poster called being "complete" in Sept "normal speed," not applying in Sept.

 

[XxThaDoggxX]

Lawddddd this is one depressing thread.

 

[familyaerospace]

https://www.aamc.org/download/321466/data/factstable5.pdf

Since someone is going to ask, it's 5 states. Vermont, North Dakota, Alabama, Kentucky and West Virginia where over half of applicants are admitted. Crazy thing here is about 2/3 of West Virginia applicants get into an MD school. Over 55% into either WVU or Marshall. Just insane to imagine that over 65% of applicants from a state can get into a US MD school, particularly when West Virginia applicants on average have some of the lower MCAT averages out of any state and their applicants.

And yes it's ok if you googled "WV residency requirements" within 10 seconds of reading this.

Are you telling me that if I moved to WV like 6 years ago, I wouldn't have had to apply to medical school like 4 times??

@Goro you were right! I apparently should have gotten the hell out of Georgia!

 

[FreckleFart99]

I think that poster called being "complete" in Sept "normal speed," not applying in Sept.

Yes I know, I meant complete.

 

[Gandyy]

So what are you saying? I was complete at "normal" speed (in early/mid Septemeber), got 2 II's before Thanksgiving and I'm still waiting to hear back from ten schools. Is that a bad sign? Should I assume that I won't get any more II's or should I hold out hope for the others?

This is pretty much my MD cycle situation.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Are you telling me that if I moved to WV like 6 years ago, I wouldn't have had to apply to medical school like 4 times??

@Goro you were right! I apparently should have gotten the hell out of Georgia!

I mean Georgia is a solid state for med school admission, not exactly California but yeah a borderline app in Georgia could easily be a winner in West Virginia

 

[Goro]

There's a reason why gyngyn and I use the term "lucky states"!

Are you telling me that if I moved to WV like 6 years ago, I wouldn't have had to apply to medical school like 4 times??

@Goro you were right! I apparently should have gotten the hell out of Georgia!

 

[Dr. Stalker]

@Goro @LizzyM thanks for the awesome insight! Us pre-meds would be lost without you. Sucks to have no interviews by this point, but certainly it is a great indicator of things one can change on his/her application to make it better for upcoming application cycles.

 

[camtheram1815]

So, is the consensus then, if you have at least one II before Thanksgiving you should be alright? And if you don't have even a single one you should be concerned? For instance, I was complete mid September, have had one interview already, rejected from 2, and placed on hold at another. I'm also waiting to hear back from my state school, which is notoriously slow, so I'm guessing in my case, I shouldn't be too terribly concerned? Or should I... Either way, at this point I'm debating which I think is more stressful, the hard work it takes to even apply to medical school, or the wait that is associated with receiving a response, it's slowly giving me premature gray hairs

 

[SOMBound13]

So, is the consensus then, if you have at least one II before Thanksgiving you should be alright

No, I don't think that is what is being implied. What do you mean by, "you should be alright"?

Do you think that means that you will likely get other II's?

 

[cyang]

No, I don't think that is what is being implied. What do you mean by, "you should be alright"?

Do you think that means that you will likely get other II's?

Can someone maybe give a little more insight as to the difference between having one II and zero II before Thanksgiving?

I have 8 rejections, 1 II from a UC, and 25 other schools to hear from...I am really confused to say the least. Complete between late august and late sep. CA resident.

 

[camtheram1815]

No, I don't think that is what is being implied. What do you mean by, "you should be alright"?

Do you think that means that you will likely get other II's?

Essentially, maybe I'm trying to ask should you be less concerned if you have already had one II by now and are still waiting? Actually writing that out makes me feel dumb for asking it haha, because it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't be as worried as the person who has no II. Case in point, in the above posts someone talked about a person who got 5/6 interviews after Thanksgiving, which is awesome, but since they already had one before Thanksgiving, it wasn't as surprising. That's kinda what I'm getting it, since I found that kind of interesting since it is only one II after all.

But anyways, I realize that all of this is school specific, and person specific, so I'll go ahead and try to be satisfied with that answer. Just trying to get a sense of how I should feel with silence from 12 schools is all..

 

[SOMBound13]

Can someone maybe give a little more insight as to the difference between having one II and zero II before Thanksgiving?

I have 8 rejections, 1 II from a UC, and 25 other schools to hear from...I am really confused to say the least. Complete between late august and late sep. CA resident.

I believe that what @LizzyM means is that if you have one II before now, then that is an indication that your app has merit, because at least one SOM has issued an II. It doesn't mean that, for sure, you'll get more II's. You might...and you might not. The person with no II's by now is less likely to receive any II's because, at this point, no SOM has believed his app to be worthy of one.

That is my gut feel for what she meant. I could be totally wrong.


That said, you are a Calif applicant. And from your screenname should we assume that you're Asian? If so, you have a tougher road to hoe. How strong is your app? If you end up having to apply again, and your academics and MCAT are fine, then next time submit the first week of June so that you'll be complete likely by the end of June. You need to control as much as you can. And, in the meantime, work on any weaknesses in your medically-related ECs. What kind of volunteering have you done? If your resume is research-laden, but you have little to show in the area of volunteering, then you may be presenting yourself as someone w/o much "human touch".

You've applied to a lot of schools, but if your list doesn't include SOMs that are more likely going to interview you, then your list needs adjusting.

Did you mostly apply to top 30 SOMs?

 

[Lawpy]

So as with the LizzyM score and the LizzyM clinical experience rule, i guess we now have the LizzyM thanksgiving rule? I recommend incorporating all these into the SDN glossary. Ominous, educational etc. I always enjoy @LizzyM tidbits

 

[FreckleFart99]

Honestly sometimes the advice from people on this site seems contradictory. I've seen the same people downplay lateness at one time and at another time really hammer that being early is a distinct and almost quantifiable advantage despite a lack of any real metrics. I don't know what to think so I'm just going to go back to obsessing and hitting that f5 key.

 

[cyang]

I believe that what @LizzyM means is that if you have one II before now, then that is an indication that your app has merit, because at least one SOM has issued an II. It doesn't mean that, for sure, you'll get more II's. You might...and you might not. The person with no II's by now is less likely to receive any II's because, at this point, no SOM has believed his app to be worthy of one.

That is my gut feel for what she meant. I could be totally wrong.


That said, you are a Calif applicant. And from your screenname should we assume that you're Asian? If so, you have a tougher road to hoe. How strong is your app? If you end up having to apply again, and your academics and MCAT are fine, then next time submit the first week of June so that you'll be complete likely by the end of June. You need to control as much as you can. And, in the meantime, work on any weaknesses in your medically-related ECs. What kind of volunteering have you done? If your resume is research-laden, but you have little to show in the area of volunteering, then you may be presenting yourself as someone w/o much "human touch".

You've applied to a lot of schools, but if your list doesn't include SOMs that are more likely going to interview you, then your list needs adjusting.

Did you mostly apply to top 30 SOMs?

Thank you for the advice. I really appreciate it!

 

[XxThaDoggxX]

I believe that what @LizzyM means is that if you have one II before now, then that is an indication that your app has merit, because at least one SOM has issued an II. It doesn't mean that, for sure, you'll get more II's. You might...and you might not. The person with no II's by now is less likely to receive any II's because, at this point, no SOM has believed his app to be worthy of one.

That is my gut feel for what she meant. I could be totally wrong.

This is what I took away from that as well.

 

[Dr. Stalker]

Along with what @SOMBound13 said, I'm sure its no concrete fact that "If you receive an II before Thanksgiving you ARE A GOOD APPLICANT." Me thinks its more of a correlation/good indication (as previously stated). If during the heap of application madness from August-Thanksgiving one of the schools you applied to decides to give you a shot, take it as a good sign. This school, amidst the chaos of applications, deems you worthy to be interviewed. Does that mean you'll get accepted this cycle? Not at all. What if you go and bomb the interview and get rejected and unfortunately didn't get any other interview invites? **** like that happens everywhere and every year (unless you're a top-tier applicant, 3.85+ and 37 MCAT+ with some ECs). Anyone else can't be "certain" they will get an acceptance.

The corollary, if you don't get an II before Thanksgiving, are you doomed? Not necessarily. That's the boat I'm in. I think @Goro and @LizzyM thanks for the solid advice to start considering other factors to improve my application for the next cycle are absolutely relevant at this point. But whose to say that the other 16 schools I haven't heard from won't send me an II between now and March?

I'm sure its a correlation with a nice R^2 value. Those that get an interview INVITATION (NOT ACCEPTANCE!) before Thanksgiving tend to be more successful applicants than those who DO NOT receive an interview invitation before thanksgiving. Also, that's kind of common sense; if you get an early interview invite, that means you're a strong applicant. Fixating it with Thanksgiving/the end of november is just a nice checkpoint! Its not a hard and fast rule (I'm sure you knew all this btw!)

 

[SOMBound13]

Lastly, I just had a non-URM, very uneven and atypical applicant, who didnt apply until end of September and who didnt get the bulk of secondaries out until end of October, get her fourth II, including Mayo, U/Pitt, and 2 MSTP.

Great. You know an exception. Likely we all know of exceptions.

However, in a competitive world, we don't bank on the prospect that we might be "the exception." We try to control as much as we can from our end. The time when we apply is one of those aspects that we can control.

BTW...your exception sounds to have some sort of hook when you consider that she has a Mayo and a Pitt II, and 2 MSTP IIs. If so, then she fits the "hook" exception that was mentioned upthread that SOMs likely do hold back a few spots for the unusual or hooked app that comes along later.

This isn't the best analogy for how it works out for those who snag late IIs, but let me try: Imagine that you have $700 to spend on holiday shopping for your 25 friends and family. At the beginning, you're a little liberal with your spending because you start buying for some of your favorite people. You find that you only have $100 left, but you've only purchased 15 gifts. At that point, you realize that you can't buy for all of the remaining 10 people AND you forgot to put Grandma and cousin Fred on the original list. You can only buy for 4 more people. You will become very picky with who those 4 gift-receivers will be. Grandma? She has to get a gift. She's got the hook of being Grandma. Strange cousin Fred that you only see once a year? He gets cut.

 

[Lucca]

What prevents people from applying as early as possible? As a non applicant, I'm asking that out of curiosity since I don't know, im not trying to be an arse. Don't you have a full month to work on the app before submitting?

 

[Goro]

Don't have the cash.
Can't get LORs and/or pre-med committee meeting in time
Haven't received MCAT scores
It takes time to write both Primaries and Secondaries. As you've noticed, lots of people get stumped by the prompts.

What prevents people from applying as early as possible? As a non applicant, I'm asking that out of curiosity since I don't know, im not trying to be an arse. Don't you have a full month to work on the app before submitting?

 

[PugsAndHugs]

What prevents people from applying as early as possible? As a non applicant, I'm asking that out of curiosity since I don't know, im not trying to be an arse. Don't you have a full month to work on the app before submitting?

The committe letter writer's dont think its important to submit it as soon as possible... I could've been complete a month and a half earlier if it wasn't for that.

 

[Holmwood]

I can only speculate that this thread is the product of seasonal affective disorder.

 

[LizzyM]

The committe letter writer's dont think its important to submit it as soon as possible... I could've been complete a month and a half earlier if it wasn't for that.

I have reviewed applications without letters and placed a note in the file to review the letters before the interview but to make the invitation even without the letters. So no, a late committee letter will not slow you down, particularly if the undergrad institution (or post-bac program) is a well known entity by a given med schools adcom.