Is A Ph.D Worth This Debt?

[TheDaoDoughnut]

Hello all!

Long story short, I am graduating with a BA with NO DEBT. I applied to Ph.D programs in clinical psychology. I did not get accepted into any fully funded programs, but I am still being considered for programs that are not fully funded.

The programs I am being considered for require me to take out significant loans (around 200K).

Is this worth it? Has anyone done this and been able to pay off a similar amount? I have heard countless horror stories regarding loans and I am reluctant to commit to paying off debt for the next 40+ years of my life. Would it be more prudent to attend a competitive masters program, conduct more research, and then apply to fully funded programs?

Please respond with your opinions and experiences.

Thank you
-Pat

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[WisNeuro]

I could justify that type of debt if I were going to graduate with an MD/DO. I can in no way fathom justifying that debt level from a PhD/PsyD.

 

[erg923]

Hello all!

Long story short, I am graduating with a BA with NO DEBT. I applied to Ph.D programs in clinical psychology. I did not get accepted into any fully funded programs, but I am still being considered for programs that are not fully funded.

The programs I am being considered for require me to take out significant loans (around 200K).

Is this worth it? Has anyone done this and been able to pay off a similar amount? I have heard countless horror stories regarding loans and I am reluctant to commit to paying off debt for the next 40+ years of my life. Would it be more prudent to attend a competitive masters program, conduct more research, and then apply to fully funded programs?

Please respond with your opinions and experiences.

Thank you
-Pat

No.

Without government assistance, you would drown in that debt.

With government assistance, it will be still be a pain in the ass and delay and/or hinder various big boy things like houses, cars, investing, retirement savings, etc.

 

[Atomnicbomb]

Perhaps it would be in your best interest to take the year off, build up your credentials in terms of research and what not, and then reapply - being that you have no debt right now, you have some room to explore your options with little to no consequences! As WisNeuro said, that number is unfathomable for a doctorate in psychology.


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[deleted343839]

Nope. Absolutely not worth it.

 

[WisNeuro]

Hell, you could halve that figure, and I would still be adamant about it not being worth it.

 

[SLB-CO]

Don't do it! Take a year off, do research, build up your credentials and re-apply. That is a crazy amount of debt - and I'm skeptical about how good the program is if they aren't funding you. Seems odd for a PhD. Apply again in a year.

 

[TheDaoDoughnut]

To all who responded,

Thank you for your prompt answers! I appreciate it fully. So it would be better to spend some time conducting research rather than applying for a masters program?

This seems feasible; I will begin contacting local faculty with this in mind!

Thank you all
-Pat

 

[Indiana_Jane]

To all who responded,

Thank you for your prompt answers! I appreciate it fully. So it would be better to spend some time conducting research rather than applying for a masters program?

This seems feasible; I will begin contacting local faculty with this in mind!

Thank you all
-Pat

I can only speak to my experience (I declined a PsyD to build up my CV/go PhD route), but I volunteered as an RA while working full time. I took a year off, interviewed this cycle & accepted an offer from a fully funded program. I believe my advisor told me that unless it's an experimental master's (and you would complete a rigorous thesis), it's just as beneficial to work your way into opportunities in a lab! In my experience, I would do it again in a heartbeat!

 

[SLB-CO]

I'd argue yes, go for research opportunities and not Masters. You can usually transfer some classes to most institutions, but overall, you're not saving much time on the PhD by doing a Masters first - or making yourself much more competitive. And, most MA programs will not fully fund you. Better to work and get research experiences! I took two years off between undergrad and grad; worked as a clinician (CAC) and got research experiences from volunteering with a local university's lab. I got into my top choice program and wouldn't have dreamed of it coming straight from undergrad. I have virtually the same path in my PhD as folks coming in with an MA or MS - and I'll graduate debt-free (was debt-free for my BA as well, so I get why it is very important to you - to me too). Good luck!

 

[TheDaoDoughnut]

Hey everyone,

You have all been extremely helpful! I cannot stress how much this lessens my anxiety (especially seeing people who took a few years off to conduct research). If I cannot get SIGNIFICANT funding from my remaining offers, then I will not attend.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Sincerely,
-Pat

 

[WisNeuro]

Lots of people take time off. In my cohort, we ranged from 1-5 years in between undergrad and grad admission.

 

[Lurking Oracle]

No. Please do not do this. Even an actual APA-accredited PhD/PsyD at a brick-and-mortar, instant-name-recognition-universty would not be worth this level of debt. Not that I really believe that this level of debt would actually occur with such a program. Most quality PhD programs have full or at least a significant tuition funding and stipends. A $200K loan/out-of-pocket program, well... caveat emptor. Be sure to examine EPPP and other outcome data. And, please, do not have your judgment clouded by free-standing professional schools that happen to be permitted to assign a "PhD" after you have found a way to pay $200K for something. Always examine the outcomes (e.g., passing the EPPP the first time; etc.) of actual graduates, and NOT simply what might be reported on the website of the place that wants to cash your tuition/student-loan checks.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Do the math here- 200k loan, 6.8% fixed rate, 20 year repayment plan= $1526 monthly payment, total repayment of 366k (!). Remember that last number, because that's the actual cost of the eduction- "school" gets 200k, bank gets 166k.

If you look at the $1500 monthly payment, before taxes (at a conservative 25% tax rate) it's about $1875 in income, or $22000 per year. Ignoring the substantial opportunity costs of graduate school (i.e. 5-7 years with minimum earning potential), you would need to have an average salary of ~22k more per year compared with what you would earn without the doctorate, for 20 years just to break even.

I make a decent salary, but I just can't fathom a 1500k monthly student loan payment. That's more than my mortgage. It will have huge ramifications on other things in your life (like getting a mortgage). It could eventually pay off, many decades from now, but there's probably better investments out there.

 

[Spydra]

Do the math here- 200k loan, 6.8% fixed rate, 20 year repayment plan= $1526 monthly payment, total repayment of 366k (!). Remember that last number, because that's the actual cost of the eduction- "school" gets 200k, bank gets 166k.

If you look at the $1500 monthly payment, before taxes (at a conservative 25% tax rate) it's about $1875 in income, or $22000 per year. Ignoring the substantial opportunity costs of graduate school (i.e. 5-7 years with minimum earning potential), you would need to have an average salary of ~22k more per year compared with what you would earn without the doctorate, for 20 years just to break even.

I make a decent salary, but I just can't fathom a 1500k monthly student loan payment. That's more than my mortgage. It will have huge ramifications on other things in your life (like getting a mortgage). It could eventually pay off, many decades from now, but there's probably better investments out there.

This is very important to point out. I work with several Psychologists who have this kind of student loan payment after going to unfunded doctoral programs and financial burden is heavy. When I was researching where to apply, potential debt, etc they were very forthcoming about what their finances look like now and not one of them said they see a light at the end of the tunnel. According to them that 200k+ wasn't just tuition, fees, and books but also living expenses because their programs did not allow them to work and they likely wouldn't have had time to anyway.

A few of them also have mortgages and/or children on top of these high student loan payments and after those expenses what's left of their decent salary forces them back to the poor student lifestyle or into a second job. Several of them told me they just didn't see the big picture with the numbers in the beginning or they *assumed* they'd be making more money then they currently are immediately out of their programs. If that is what the end result would be then it definitely isn't worth it and I'm glad I made different choices regarding where I applied.

 

[Wendi22]

 

[Justanothergrad]

Lots of people take time off. In my cohort, we ranged from 1-5 years in between undergrad and grad admission.

I got more from my time off than my UG training in terms of how I approached grad school, life, etc. Probably the best thing that ever happened despite my firm belief that it was the end of the world not to progress immediately.

Sometimes I wonder if it would be a useful psychology stats course exercise in UG to make people play with loan repayment information for graduate school... even just for an hour.

 

[Wendi22]

I had put something on here earlier but did not want OP to think my comment was directed at him or her so changed it to the smile. I just had something happen lately and wanted to share it on here in hopes that someone reading threads for financial advice would see it.

I recently sat on a panel to give advice to individuals from my old MS program wanting to go onto doctoral programs. Of course funding came up as well as the pressure to start a program as soon as possible. One point that is made by individuals looking at large debt is that they are young and there will be time to pay it off. Okay...yeah you can pay it off as you will graduate 28-30. So some of my former classmates are maybe 1 or 2 years into psyd programs and they think things are good. I kept applying until I got funding so yeah I will be a few years older when I graduate but also will not have loans to pay back. I do not know the exact price of the programs they attend but they are over 30k a year. Maybe I am wrong as I have not graduated yet, but I am thinking that when we are all done......... I will be happy not to be in their shoes when that payment comes to the door.

 

[MCParent]

Sometimes I wonder if it would be a useful psychology stats course exercise in UG to make people play with loan repayment information for graduate school... even just for an hour.

I've tried to do stuff like this and it's staggering. Like, literally people thinking 200k debt + 50k income = debt free in only 4 years, wow!

 

[smalltownpsych]

I've tried to do stuff like this and it's staggering. Like, literally people thinking 200k debt + 50k income = debt free in only 4 years, wow!

'Cause I'm living in mom's basement eating all her food! 50 x 4 = 200 See how easy it is to be a pyscholigest?

 

[Pragma]

This cat has the answer.

 

[deleted106747]

I had a lot of dumb ideas about debt when I went into graduate school, and I ended up with not a ridiculous, unlivable amount, but more than I would like to have. I have been fortunate to find a position with loan repayment, because otherwise I would have this hanging over my head for quite awhile.

I think that the comments made on here, with due respect, are a bit judgmental, and they keep me from feeling comfortable sharing the dumb ideas that I had so that others do not make them. I do wish I had understood it better, but I didn't. I'm not a stupid person, nor did I expect my parents to bail me out, but I had never had debt before of any kind - not credit card debt, not undergraduate debt - and I did not understand certain things that I understand now.

 

[deleted343839]

I had a lot of dumb ideas about debt when I went into graduate school, and I ended up with not a ridiculous, unlivable amount, but more than I would like to have. I have been fortunate to find a position with loan repayment, because otherwise I would have this hanging over my head for quite awhile.

I think that the comments made on here, with due respect, are a bit judgmental, and they keep me from feeling comfortable sharing the dumb ideas that I had so that others do not make them. I do wish I had understood it better, but I didn't. I'm not a stupid person, nor did I expect my parents to bail me out, but I had never had debt before of any kind - not credit card debt, not undergraduate debt - and I did not understand certain things that I understand now.

I made some dumb decisions about student loans as well. A portion of my debt was unavoidable, but I wish I'd had SDN to school me on the rest. In retrospect, I wouldn't mind a bit of tough love if it meant a couple hundred extra dollars in my pocket every month.

 

[deleted106747]

k

I made some dumb decisions about student loans as well. A portion of my debt was unavoidable, but I wish I'd had SDN to school me on the rest. In retrospect, I wouldn't mind a bit of tough love if it meant a couple hundred extra dollars in my pocket every month.

Well sure, I'd love to be schooled when I still could've done something about it but the tone of some of the comments makes me less inclined to post my mistakes when I cannot change them. Tough love is a different thing than some of the posts I've seen.

 

[WisNeuro]

k

Well sure, I'd love to be schooled when I still could've done something about it but the tone of some of the comments makes me less inclined to post my mistakes when I cannot change them. Tough love is a different thing than some of the posts I've seen.

Well, hopefully some students considering crushing debt loads will read some of these threads while they can still do something about it. Personally, I'll take a cutting rebuke over tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in life altering debt.

 

[deleted106747]

Well, hopefully some students considering crushing debt loads will read some of these threads while they can still do something about it. Personally, I'll take a cutting rebuke over tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in life altering debt.

It's not the cutting rebukes I take issue with, its some of the ridicule and implication that people are entitled brats who want to be psychologists without doing the work. I think it makes for a less functional environment is all I'm saying. I made mistakes and I had bad ideas about debt; clarifying those bad ideas in this environment doesn't seem like a good idea. I will say that the good choices I made: going to a fully funded PhD program, making sure everything I did was APA accredited, doing solid work and developing good relationships - went a long way to putting me in a situation where I am getting the debt fully paid.

 

[deleted343839]

Well sure, I'd love to be schooled when I still could've done something about it but the tone of some of the comments makes me less inclined to post my mistakes when I cannot change them. Tough love is a different thing than some of the posts I've seen.

In general, I think people here are more inclined to be harsh when a prospective student deflects very reasonable, informed advice about their future and reacts with "here's why taking on six-figure debt makes so much sense in my special case and ALL YOU NAYSAYERS ARE JUST ELITIST HATERS..." etc.

I would hope that most of us would be more forgiving after the fact, esp. if someone offers their own story as a cautionary tale. I'm in no position to judge, that's for sure.

 

[WisNeuro]

its some of the ridicule and implication that people are entitled brats who want to be psychologists without doing the work.

Not all of them, just some of them.

 

[deleted106747]

Not all of them, just some of them.

far more humiliating is the fact that I screwed up my it's and its in that sentence.

 

[WisNeuro]

far more humiliating is the fact that I screwed up my it's and its in that sentence.

I was going to let that one slide. Grammar mistakes are temporary and only slightly embarrassing. Taking out 150k+ in loans, that's lifelong and downright soul-crushing.

 

[deleted106747]

I was going to let that one slide. Grammar mistakes are temporary and only slightly embarrassing. Taking out 150k+ in loans, that's lifelong and downright soul-crushing.

Yes, that's true. I'm grateful I have nowhere near that amount. You couldn't survive the first year of EDRP at that level. But - the level I have has been life-interfering enough. I would not take out loans for a PhD in Psychology unless either a) I KNEW I was going to get loan repayment or b) it was in the range of $20-30K.

 

[Wendi22]

This site literally saved me last year from taking out 200k in student loans. I had mentors encouraging me to proceed. If I had not done some googling, found this site, and started reading then my life would be very different now and in the future. So I am grateful for the comments. That being said, I was one step away from going through with it so I understand when others say they already have lots of debt and need help fixing it.

 

[Ollie123]

I cannot overstate how grateful I am to be debt free after going through this process. My wife and I are currently saving for a house and are easily setting aside enormous chunks of money each month for a down payment while still living very comfortably. Even with me still paid a post-doc-level salary. Rough calculations, almost all that money towards a down payment would get eaten up by 150k loans. We're in a modest cost-of-living area and are looking at pretty nice long-term (i.e. not starter) homes for under 350k.

If I was in an expensive area AND had 150k in debt (I mention COL just because it seems to be correlated with where high debt schools are located), I'd likely be in my mid 40's before I could even think about home ownership.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Do the math here- 200k loan, 6.8% fixed rate, 20 year repayment plan= $1526 monthly payment, total repayment of 366k (!). Remember that last number, because that's the actual cost of the eduction- "school" gets 200k, bank gets 166k.

If you look at the $1500 monthly payment, before taxes (at a conservative 25% tax rate) it's about $1875 in income, or $22000 per year. Ignoring the substantial opportunity costs of graduate school (i.e. 5-7 years with minimum earning potential), you would need to have an average salary of ~22k more per year compared with what you would earn without the doctorate, for 20 years just to break even.

I make a decent salary, but I just can't fathom a 1500k monthly student loan payment. That's more than my mortgage. It will have huge ramifications on other things in your life (like getting a mortgage). It could eventually pay off, many decades from now, but there's probably better investments out there.

Can we get this post saved to a FAQs thread or something? I think its is important for people to understand the long term cost of a loan.

 

[WisNeuro]

Can we get this post saved to a FAQs thread or something? I think its is important for people to understand the long term cost of a loan.

Pssh, it's all just numbers on a a screen/piece of paper? What are those numbers compared to my dream of being a doctor at any cost?

 

[CheetahGirl]

This cat has the answer.

I agree with cat.

 

[UrbanMidwest]

From my understanding, entering a Phd program that doesn't provide you full-funding (tuition) or nearly is not a program to invest in. I agree with this philosophy.

Also, I'm in a similar position as you - graduated undergrad without any debt, but will be attending graduate school (MSW) and will incur debt (approx. $30K, which isn't too bad).

As another poster noted taking out $200K loans would be different if you're attempting to obtain an MD/OD. Include top MBA programs and T-14 law programs.

 

[UrbanMidwest]

I've tried to do stuff like this and it's staggering. Like, literally people thinking 200k debt + 50k income = debt free in only 4 years, wow!

Are you serious? I guess they totally didn't factor in the money that goes towards rent, utilities, phone/internet, healthcare, transportation, clothes, food, entertainment and 401(k) from that 50K. Ah, to be young naive and stupid.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Ah, to be young naive and stupid.

I'd probably stick with "young and naive" and get rid of the "stupid" (I know you were just using a colloquialism there). Problem is, many of these people are actually very intelligent coming out of undergrad, but also very inexperienced an uninformed about what things cost. That high speed internet you enjoyed at college? That'll be $75 -100 per month. Cable TV? Another $75-100 per month. Gym membership $25-75 per month. You like intramural sports and want to keep involved in something healthy and competitive? I pay ~$500 per year for various ice hockey leagues (plus 15-20 bucks a week for the good beer we drink after the skate) If you want to eat even close to dining hall standards, that's at least $50 a week (forgetting about anything resembling a good cut beef- stuff is outrageously expensive). I could go on, but hopefully point is made (end old man rant!! Now you kids get off of my yard-which I will, incidentally, need to spend ~$100 bucks on this weekend to try to repair/reseed after grub damage so I'm not living in a Steinbeck Novel whenever I step out my front door this summer!)

I went to a fully funded Ph.D program, and incurred some debt, but had a bunch from undergrad. Student loan payment has been ~400 per month. I make a good salary at this point in my career, but I still feel that payment, and will for several years, and that's on a relatively moderate loan debt. I couldn't imagine tripling or quadrupling that. As it is, that means I drive a crappier car than I would like to. It'd also be nice to have that money to invest in retirement.

Student loans are a valuable resource-even necessary if you want socio-economic diversity in our colleges and universities. I think it often comes across here as people saying "forget your dreams if they cost more than a good six pack (actually, the good stuff comes in 4 packs!). I think people are really just encouraging prospective students to realistic place some real value on that dream, and compare it to the actual costs of achieving it. The excitement and enthusiasm for the field that I see in many of prospective student posts hereabouts is a big reason for me coming back to this board- it shouldn't be lost! It also shouldn't cloud the realities of the real impacts of paying 400k (remember to factor in the compound interest and opportunity costs of 6 years without a real salary) for some of these programs. If driving 2002 Accord and eating Top Ramen while watching basic cable and drinking Natural Ice are part of your dreams, go for it!

 

[CheetahGirl]

A good friend of mine went to one of those 'expensive' PhD programs on the West Coast. She met her future husband there, and together they will graduate that program with almost half a million dollars in debt between the both of them. They are dedicated, good, caring clinicians but we talk about how limited they are with future dreams because of the debt load they will carry for the next 20+ years. And she often worries aloud about what they will do when they have children and need to pay for, say, daycare so she can go to work to make a living and continue paying down those loans. In fact, she moved back to her hometown for family support (so her parents could help them in the future, like with childcare, borrowing a 2nd car, etc.). So consider if this is the type of lifestyle you'd like to begin.

As others have said, if you are coming out of undergrad with no/little debt, why shoot yourself in the foot before you run this PhD/PsyD marathon?

I took took time off from UG to PhD, and along the way I worked a full-time clinical research job, (that came with much publishing and presenting experience, including travel across the U.S. and Europe!) and got my masters via evening classes. I was only offered a funded PhD after my second time applying, so it pays off to be tenacious and plan your moves, even if it takes several years. Now that we have kids, my husband reminds me that he's glad I am not stealing from the mouths of our babes (with a huge debt load). I have a little debt from the first masters, but I continued paying it down all during my PhD (dented the interest mainly) so even that debt is now fading away.

OP, make things exciting again for yourself. You certainly do not have to be dissuaded by not landing the best program for you the first time around, some of us had to plan our next moves after that initial rejection. And getting schooled in this area (loans, alternative paths, getting more research experience, etc.) will only benefit you.

P.S. That "No, No, No..." Cat video is hit over here. We're on vacation, and have played that video about 5 times. In fact, I've been playing it when my kids ask me for something they can't have.

Good luck @TheDaoDoughnut.

 

[deleted106747]

I think what I'm arguing for is that not everyone with debt went to a pricey freestanding school. And that there's some nuance with debt. For example, I made some stupid choices, but those choices probably only counted for about 10% of my debt. Bigger factors in my debt were life events that come up when you are an older student; stuff happened that I won't get into on a public forum that would not have happened to me had I gone straight into graduate school, and it had to be paid for.

I'm also not a proponent that you must have absolutely 0 debt. I think a small amount of debt is worthwhile for a rewarding and decently paid career. But I am a proponent of that debt remaining relatively small. Like I said before, not over $30K or maybe $40K at the most. I thank whatever powers there may be every day that my loans are being paid by my work. If that didn't happen, I wouldn't be able to afford the things that people want as they move into mid life. And I think that after all the work and uncertainty of this degree - internship imbalances, job market - being able to afford a decent house, an occasional vacation, to go out to eat - is, at least for me, important to my own mental health.

Again, I have nowhere near the astronomical amounts of debt that have been named on this forum for going to a freestanding school. Certainly not six figures. But it is enough that my quality of life would not be where I wanted it to be, and that's important to consider too.

 

[UrbanMidwest]

I'd probably stick with "young and naive" and get rid of the "stupid" (I know you were just using a colloquialism there). Problem is, many of these people are actually very intelligent coming out of undergrad, but also very inexperienced an uninformed about what things cost. That high speed internet you enjoyed at college? That'll be $75 -100 per month. Cable TV? Another $75-100 per month. Gym membership $25-75 per month. You like intramural sports and want to keep involved in something healthy and competitive? I pay ~$500 per year for various ice hockey leagues (plus 15-20 bucks a week for the good beer we drink after the skate) If you want to eat even close to dining hall standards, that's at least $50 a week (forgetting about anything resembling a good cut beef- stuff is outrageously expensive). I could go on, but hopefully point is made (end old man rant!! Now you kids get off of my yard-which I will, incidentally, need to spend ~$100 bucks on this weekend to try to repair/reseed after grub damage so I'm not living in a Steinbeck Novel whenever I step out my front door this summer!)

I went to a fully funded Ph.D program, and incurred some debt, but had a bunch from undergrad. Student loan payment has been ~400 per month. I make a good salary at this point in my career, but I still feel that payment, and will for several years, and that's on a relatively moderate loan debt. I couldn't imagine tripling or quadrupling that. As it is, that means I drive a crappier car than I would like to. It'd also be nice to have that money to invest in retirement.

Student loans are a valuable resource-even necessary if you want socio-economic diversity in our colleges and universities. I think it often comes across here as people saying "forget your dreams if they cost more than a good six pack (actually, the good stuff comes in 4 packs!). I think people are really just encouraging prospective students to realistic place some real value on that dream, and compare it to the actual costs of achieving it. The excitement and enthusiasm for the field that I see in many of prospective student posts hereabouts is a big reason for me coming back to this board- it shouldn't be lost! It also shouldn't cloud the realities of the real impacts of paying 400k (remember to factor in the compound interest and opportunity costs of 6 years without a real salary) for some of these programs. If driving 2002 Accord and eating Top Ramen while watching basic cable and drinking Natural Ice are part of your dreams, go for it!

Nah, keep the "stupid." There are many "intelligent" people who couldn't attach a new doorknob to a door and many who utter things that are beyond laughable.

 

[Ollie123]

I think what I'm arguing for is that not everyone with debt went to a pricey freestanding school. And that there's some nuance with debt.

I fully agree and while I won't claim to speak for others, I suspect most would agree that your stance is quite reasonable. A few thousand to supplement cost of living to attend a good school in an expensive area or to cover an emergency expense is a vastly different situation than what I see people getting lambasted for on here. Many (most?) of the students at my fully funded program took out loans. They were minimal and allowed folks to enjoy life as a grad student a little more. Most go on to work in academia or at VAs. They will likely have minimal difficulty paying them back. That is a vastly different situation from someone who has never run a business wanting to open a PP in a high COL area that already is satured with mental health professionals who is planning to take on 200k in debt to cover tuition alone.

I'll even go so far as to say there are situations where substantially more than 50k is not necessarily the wrong decision for a given individual. It just needs to be a conscious one made by a fully informed individual for good reasons. Not "Well, the other schools didn't let me in and I don't want to wait another year." We have several posters here who are really debt averse. I get it and generally am too by most metrics. There are some cases where it makes sense. We most likely will not buy our next car in cash. My wife and I expect to take on a ~300k mortgage in the next year while only putting 10% down. These are not things Dave Ramsey is likely to recommend or that make sense in strict economic terms, but I'm a human and not a stock portfolio. What matters is thinking through these things in full and that is what I generally see people pushing prospective students to do (albeit not always in a fluffy "Life is puppies and rainbows and all your dreams coming true at once" kinda way).

 

[Wendi22]

programs on the West Coast

Speaking of, I had someone ask me about Pacific University Psyd in Oregon. Looking at website and previous threads I am not sure it would be a good pick so my advice was look elsewhere. Anyone know more about this program?

 

[CheetahGirl]

Anyone know more about this program?

Their program was in CA. I don't know anything about Pacific University Psyd in Oregon.

 

[Sanman]

Doing the math, it seems a good rule of thumb, albeit a bit of a liberal one, is that the cost of loans to complete a program should not exceed one year annual salary once finished for any career.

The only caveat I might includes is mine. I went to a funded program, but needed loans for living expenses. If living at home and being unfunded is cheaper, go for it. This is a rare case though.

I agree with others that prospective students often inflate the sense of happiness a career will provide and discount the importance of financial stability. Looking back, I would have been equally happy with other careers as well, but more free time would be nice.

A reality check for th naive:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/

 

[deleted106747]

Doing the math, it seems a good rule of thumb, albeit a bit of a liberal one, is that the cost of loans to complete a program should not exceed one year annual salary once finished for any career.

The only caveat I might includes is mine. I went to a funded program, but needed loans for living expenses. If living at home and being unfunded is cheaper, go for it. This is a rare case though.

I agree with others that prospective students often inflate the sense of happiness a career will provide and discount the importance of financial stability. Looking back, I would have been equally happy with other careers as well, but more free time would be nice.

A reality check for th naive:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/

That is an excellent article. It speaks to the shades of gray in all this. It's not as straightforward as it seems on the surface of it, yet it is also not as complex as it seems (money in/money out). The problem is, many including me go into adulthood often with absolutely no concept of these things. One of my dumb thoughts was, well, I've lived on $20K for the last few years, why wouldn't I be able to do that after graduate school and use the rest to just pay off my loan?

I really like what you said about the career. There are other careers I could have had that I would like as much as what I do now, without the years and years of school and without the debt.

I have heard that rule of thumb and I obeyed it, but my debt was still not worth it (if I hadn't gotten the loan covered). If I could invent a new rule of thumb, it would be no more than half the first year's income. Primarily because those first years out of grad school are expensive! Child care costs a fortune, if that's needed. So does replacing the junk car that limped through graduate school. And decent groceries, because when you're in your 20s you can get by on cheap ramen and other suchlike but as you move through your 30s you need healthier food. And on and on and on.

 

[CheetahGirl]

@TheDaoDoughnut,

I want to comment on this thread regarding your choice of programs. The program (see other thread) you selected for admission should not run you $200K in the red. So you made a good choice. Best of luck!