Is investing ~400,000 dollars really worth it?

[zammyd]

The time is coming up for acceptances and the one thing that still is scaring me the most is the cost of attendance. Putting down 400,000 dollars (after interest fees) is not a joke and is really worrying me. I do think I can manage to pay it, but what worries me is if paying that much for school is worth it. Suppose I make around 100k-200k after school, it still would take me between 5- 10 years to pay it off. Do I want to live in debt for that long? ...What if I break my hands in dental school? What if I get into a debilitating accident? I'd basically lose my investment and my career as a dentist would be over. I know I might be thinking too far out but can anyone give me some input that would make this decision a little easier?

* I should also mention I am an international student, so I'm limited in terms of military and scholarship options

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[PathoTurnUp1865]

Find the NPV/IRR/Incremental IRR and I think you have your problem solved.

 

[BobbyBeavis]

Yes -- Join the military

 

[EasTexan]

There are ways to manage your debt. Different repayment plans, military, public service, etc. See here for payment plans: https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLoan/mobile/repayment/repaymentEstimator.action Graduated payment (based on income or whichever) that you attack once you have a decent income seems to be a decent option. You don't have to jump into a standard plan as soon as you graduate.

But yes, you need to be smart about the debt.

There's also disability insurance. While in school and after. Pretty sure ASDA even has free disability insurance.

 

[dentalcpa90]

I think there are some other considerations that you need into account also:

1.) You will have to move somewhere not saturated with dentist in order to make a salary good enough to service that debt. Are you willing to go through 4 years of dental school and 400K+ in debt to work somewhere undesirable? For some people, it probably won't be worth it. Dentistry might be fun but living in the middle of nowhere to do so isn't so fun.

In saturated areas, you might have to pick up multiple part-time jobs just to have full-time work. Which can be really unstable income.

If you inheriting someone's practice, then you would have no problem.

2.) You won't be living the lifestyle of the dentist you see today until you own your own practice. Which adds a whole another level of stress. Also, if you want a thriving practice, you might to move somewhere undesirable to do so. Are you okay with all of that?

 

[Incis0r]

The time is coming up for acceptances and the one thing that still is scaring me the most is the cost of attendance. Putting down 400,000 dollars (after interest fees) is not a joke and is really worrying me. I do think I can manage to pay it, but what worries me is if paying that much for school is worth it. Suppose I make around 100k-200k after school, it still would take me between 5- 10 years to pay it off. Do I want to live in debt for that long? ...What if I break my hands in dental school? What if I get into a debilitating accident? I'd basically lose my investment and my career as a dentist would be over. I know I might be thinking too far out but can anyone give me some input that would make this decision a little easier?

* I should also mention I am an international student, so I'm limited in terms of military and scholarship options

It is not worth it.

You're thinking of things most pre-dents ignore, and you are wise for thinking of this. I talk about this stuff with my dentist mentors all the time, and the general consensus is no, it is not worth it for 400K. I'd question it being worth it over 250K. I've developed some strong backup plans, and I encourage you to do the same.

You are absolutely correct that 400K is scary.

Also, I don't know how your loan situation would work since you're international - but in the U.S., you cannot remove federal student loans through bankruptcy....i.e. if something debilitating happens, you're still on the hook for them. And if you can't pay them, future benefits will be slashed....social security, etc.

 

[Incis0r]

You won't be living the lifestyle of the dentist you see today until you own your own practice. Which adds a whole another level of stress.

I've never understood this statement. What exactly IS the lifestyle of a dentist "you see today?" As far as I can tell, many of the private practice dentists I've shadowed are overstressed about competition from other dentists and corps, in practice debt (even into their late 50s), complaining about the relentless declining reimbursements from PPOs and the exit of the FFS model, and just not very happy over all. Many of them are aware that there will be fewer and fewer buyers for their general practices in the future (due to growth of corps and group practices), so they won't get as much for their practices as they may have before.

I don't WANT the lifestyle of the dentist I see today.

And what do they do this for? A six-figure income? They make an income that is comparable to that obtained in other avenues of dentistry. I have checked the ADA average income of general dentists from private practice. And I know for a fact that you do NOT need to own a practice to make more than that. I don't even want to own at all.

 

[oralcare123]

It is not worth it.

You're thinking of things most pre-dents ignore, and you are wise for thinking of this. I talk about this stuff with my dentist mentors all the time, and the general consensus is no, it is not worth it for 400K. I'd question it being worth it over 250K.

You are absolutely correct that 400K is scary.

Also, I don't know how your loan situation would work since you're international - but in the U.S., you cannot remove federal student loans through bankruptcy....i.e. if something debilitating happens, you're still on the hook for them. And if you can't pay them, future benefits will be slashed....social security, etc.

If "something debilitating happens" your loans would be forgiven

 

[Incis0r]

If "something debilitating happens" your loans would be forgiven

It depends on the extent of the debilitating condition. To qualify for forgiveness under the "Total and Permanent Disability" provision, "Your physician must certify that you are unable to engage in any substantial gainful activity by reason of a medically determinable physical or mental impairment that

• Can be expected to result in death,
• Has lasted for a continuous period of not less than 60 months, or
• Can be expected to last for a continuous period of not less than 60 months."

Source:https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation#total-and

There are two key points here.

First- you need to prove that you cannot participate in any substantial gainful activity. If OP injures his/her hands, they can still teach at a dental school. They can still lecture. They can participate in gainful activities, so this disqualifies them.

Second- you need to prove that the condition will last a minimum of five years. It'd have to be an extremely debilitating condition for a physician to make that statement.

 

[oralcare123]

It depends on the extent of the debilitating condition. To qualify for forgiveness under the "Total and Permanent Disability" provision, "Your physician must certify that you are unable to engage in any substantial gainful activity by reason of a medically determinable physical or mental impairment that

• Can be expected to result in death,
• Has lasted for a continuous period of not less than 60 months, or
• Can be expected to last for a continuous period of not less than 60 months."

Source:https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation#total-and

There are two key points here.

First- you need to prove that you cannot participate in any substantial gainful activity. If OP injures his/her hands, they can still teach at a dental school. They can still lecture. They can participate in gainful activities, so this disqualifies them.

Second- you need to prove that the condition will last a minimum of five years. It'd have to be an extremely debilitating condition for a physician to make that statement.

Not completely correct. Yes, disability should be full, but monitoring and length should be 3 years. For all other cases there is a long term disability insurance and common sense. I've met people enjoying sky diving in dental school on a regular basis... Maybe they had a very good insurance

 

[dentalcpa90]

It is not worth it.

You're thinking of things most pre-dents ignore, and you are wise for thinking of this. I talk about this stuff with my dentist mentors all the time, and the general consensus is no, it is not worth it for 400K. I'd question it being worth it over 250K. I've developed some strong backup plans, and I encourage you to do the same.

You are absolutely correct that 400K is scary.

Also, I don't know how your loan situation would work since you're international - but in the U.S., you cannot remove federal student loans through bankruptcy....i.e. if something debilitating happens, you're still on the hook for them. And if you can't pay them, future benefits will be slashed....social security, etc.

I think you are too negative man. Also, I think it is hypocritical of you to dissuade others from pursuing dentistry when you are going into dentistry.

I still think it is worth it but you have to realize the lifestyle that you will be living. It is not as cushy as a lot of people think it is.

I've never understood this statement. What exactly IS the lifestyle of a dentist "you see today?" As far as I can tell, many of the private practice dentists I've shadowed are overstressed about competition from other dentists and corps, in practice debt (even into their late 50s), complaining about the relentless declining reimbursements from PPOs and the exit of the FFS model, and just not very happy over all. Many of them are aware that there will be fewer and fewer buyers for their general practices in the future (due to growth of corps and group practices), so they won't get as much for their practices as they may have before.

I don't WANT the lifestyle of the dentist I see today.

And what do they do this for? A six-figure income? They make an income that is comparable to that obtained in other avenues of dentistry. I have checked the ADA average income of general dentists from private practice. And I know for a fact that you do NOT need to own a practice to make more than that. I don't even want to own at all.

If you don't plan to own, then what will you be doing?

If you don't own, then anyone you work for will work you like a dog. Also, they will push you to do unethical dentistry because they only care about how much you produce. It is your license on the line, not theirs.

So you are not never going to be living a nice lifestyle by not owning

Dentistry can be tiresome when you get old too. At least when you own, you can dictate how much you want to work and what procedures you want to do.

 

[hellofuturedentists]

I've never understood this statement. What exactly IS the lifestyle of a dentist "you see today?" As far as I can tell, many of the private practice dentists I've shadowed are overstressed about competition from other dentists and corps, in practice debt (even into their late 50s), complaining about the relentless declining reimbursements from PPOs and the exit of the FFS model, and just not very happy over all. Many of them are aware that there will be fewer and fewer buyers for their general practices in the future (due to growth of corps and group practices), so they won't get as much for their practices as they may have before.

I don't WANT the lifestyle of the dentist I see today.

And what do they do this for? A six-figure income? They make an income that is comparable to that obtained in other avenues of dentistry. I have checked the ADA average income of general dentists from private practice. And I know for a fact that you do NOT need to own a practice to make more than that. I don't even want to own at all.

Income is not the only reason someone should decide to become a dentist or remain one. If you love what you do, the less-exciting aspects of running a practice probably won't bother you so much. Looking at this from a financial aspect is important, but if someone has the skills, motivation, and desire to become a dentist, that person might be miserable in a different career the same way that someone who really wants to be a CEO might absolutely despise going into the dental field. It's great if you wouldn't mind going down a different avenue if dental school doesn't pan out, but some don't feel that way.

 

[Incis0r]

I think you are too negative man. Also, I think it is hypocritical of you to dissuade others from pursuing dentistry when you are going into dentistry.

I still think it is worth it but you have to realize the lifestyle that you will be living. It is not as cushy as a lot of people think it is.

If you don't plan to own, then what will you be doing?

If you don't own, then anyone you work for will work you like a dog. Also, they will push you to do unethical dentistry because they only care about how much you produce. It is your license on the line, not theirs.

So you are not never going to be living a nice lifestyle by not owning

Dentistry can be tiresome when you get old too. At least when you own, you can dictate how much you want to work and what procedures you want to do.

Can you point out for me what I said that was wrong in the post of mine that you quoted as being too negative?

I don't see myself as negative person- just as a realistic person who is going into this profession with his eyes open. I know what to expect because I have had these conversations with practicing dentists and I know the current state of dentistry.

Also, I have posted my views on student loans multiple times, and I have made it clear on this forum that I will not be attending dental school if the cost with loans is greater than $250K. I made the same suggestion in this thread. I don't believe I am being hypocritical at all.

"If you don't own, then anyone you work for will work you like a dog."- You should not make sweeping generalizations like this, painting all employers the same way. You can work in the military- for one example. I'm in contact with over 15 dentists from all three branches of the U.S. military and every single one has confirmed that it is relatively relaxed pace. You get an hour to do a filling.

The other day, I had a phone call with a dentist who makes over $2M a year running multiple practices. He was in the military. He told me the ONLY reason he left was that he was bored out of his mind with how slow things were scheduled.

Another dentist I know is working at an Indian Health Service clinic. Again, not being worked like a dog.

You're definitely not worked "like a dog" just because you don't own a practice.

"Also they will push you to do unethical dentistry because they only care about how much you produce." It's true that most corps pay based on production/collection, and that is a strong incentive to be aggressive in treatment-planning. But if you feel uncomfortable with the situation, just say "I quit" to them. Protect your license, like you said. OH WAIT, you can't quit because you have $400K in loans! Can you see how taking more loans is actually the problem here?

Do you honestly think grads who go straight into private practice (which requires an additional loan by the way) will be more ethical than those working for another employer, but who just have a student loan? I don't know, but if I had to make a bet, I would say that the private practice person is more in debt and therefore would be more likely to be aggressive with the treatment.

"Dentistry can be tiresome when you get old too. At least when you own, you can dictate how much you want to work and what procedures you want to do."

So let me get this straight- you are in favor of grads taking out huge amounts of student loans....400k+....and taking out practice loans, and on top of that, you think they'll have the flexibility to cut down on hours and procedures without pressure to produce dentistry? All while having the "dentist lifestyle" that you claim is still "worth it?" I'm not buying your argument, and if that means I'm "too negative," then that's perfectly fine with me.

 

[aznriptide859]

Perhaps you should ask this question in the Dental subforum, where actual dentists can give insight on whether or not it's a "good investment", and if their debt really affects their "dentist lifestyle" or not.

 

[Carbohydrates]

 

[oralcare123]

It is a funny and pointless discussion, because it is among pre-dents and dentists. We already decided what to do and it is worth it even if we would be huffing and puffing paying for it

 

[Carbohydrates]

It is a funny and pointless discussion, because it is among pre-dents and dentists. We already decided what to do and it is worth it even if we would be huffing and puffing paying for it

Amen

 

[Incis0r]

Perhaps you should ask this question in the Dental subforum, where actual dentists can give insight on whether or not it's a "good investment", and if their debt really affects their "dentist lifestyle" or not.

Exactly. In fact, OP, sign up for a free account over on Dentaltown and go and ask there. Lots of discussion on this issue.

I'll give you the links to a few threads to get you started, filling with real practicing dentists who have commented on this issue. You need an account to read them, but the threads are full of valuable insight:

1. http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?a=11&s=2&f=2656&t=208610&pg=1&v=0&g=1&st=400k debt
2.http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?a=11&s=2&f=1934&t=186670&g=1&st=400k debt
3.http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?a=11&s=2&f=136&t=193522&pg=4&v=0&g=1&st=400k debt

 

[nonociceptors]

If

I've never understood this statement. What exactly IS the lifestyle of a dentist "you see today?" As far as I can tell, many of the private practice dentists I've shadowed are overstressed about competition from other dentists and corps, in practice debt (even into their late 50s), complaining about the relentless declining reimbursements from PPOs and the exit of the FFS model, and just not very happy over all. Many of them are aware that there will be fewer and fewer buyers for their general practices in the future (due to growth of corps and group practices), so they won't get as much for their practices as they may have before.

I don't WANT the lifestyle of the dentist I see today.

And what do they do this for? A six-figure income? They make an income that is comparable to that obtained in other avenues of dentistry. I have checked the ADA average income of general dentists from private practice. And I know for a fact that you do NOT need to own a practice to make more than that. I don't even want to own at all.

A dentist who is 50+years old should not be in debt. No part of me believes that people in such a situation are anything other than outliers. That's ridiculous.

 

[zammyd]

Exactly. In fact, OP, sign up for a free account over on Dentaltown and go and ask there. Lots of discussion on this issue.

I'll give you the links to a few threads to get you started, filling with real practicing dentists who have commented on this issue. You need an account to read them, but the threads are full of valuable insight:

1. http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?a=11&s=2&f=2656&t=208610&pg=1&v=0&g=1&st=400k debt
2.http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?a=11&s=2&f=1934&t=186670&g=1&st=400k debt
3.http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?a=11&s=2&f=136&t=193522&pg=4&v=0&g=1&st=400k debt

Thanks!!

 

[redmau5]

Exactly. In fact, OP, sign up for a free account over on Dentaltown and go and ask there. Lots of discussion on this issue.

I'll give you the links to a few threads to get you started, filling with real practicing dentists who have commented on this issue. You need an account to read them, but the threads are full of valuable insight:

1. http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?a=11&s=2&f=2656&t=208610&pg=1&v=0&g=1&st=400k debt
2.http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?a=11&s=2&f=1934&t=186670&g=1&st=400k debt
3.http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?a=11&s=2&f=136&t=193522&pg=4&v=0&g=1&st=400k debt

I actually agree with pretty much everything you've said, but I'd take what you read on Dentaltown (and any online forum for that matter) with a grain of salt. That website caters to a very specific population of practicing dentists, the overwhelming majority of whom tend to view things with a "glass half empty" sort of mentality. They're also predominantly general dentists, so that's something to keep in mind as well.

Still, I can't stress enough how much I agree with you about debt. @zammyd, if you do plan on servicing such a large loan, you simply must have a payment plan in place, whether that be applying for scholarships (HPSP/NHSC), moving to a market in need, living a modest lifestyle, or a combination of these things.

 

[Incis0r]

Thanks!!

No problem- I am really grateful to the people who showed me how much stress a large amount of debt can have on someone's financial future, and I just wanted to pass on the knowledge. Good luck.

I actually agree with pretty much everything you've said, but I'd take what you read on Dentaltown (and any online forum for that matter) with a grain of salt. That website caters to a very specific population of practicing dentists, the overwhelming majority of whom tend to view things with a "glass half empty" sort of mentality. They're also predominantly general dentists, so that's something to keep in mind as well.

Still, I can't stress enough how much I agree with you about debt. @zammyd, if you do plan on servicing such a large loan, you simply must have a payment plan in place, whether that be applying for scholarships (HPSP/NHSC), moving to a market in need, living a modest lifestyle, or a combination of these things.

I agree with you- take things with a grain of salt. Many of the threads I gave to OP have several different people presenting their situations, so I figured that the increased sample size would give OP more certainty about the debt issue.

FWIW, there are some pretty amazing people on there. I don't know if the overwhelming majority has a "glass half empty" mentality...I haven't seen much pessimism there, but I know what you mean. I'm in a group there which has lots of guest speakers, such as CE legends, frequently come and provide us with webinars and enrichment material. I have video-chatted with people who are very successful in their private practice, and learned what took them to that level. I have literally seen designs of the floor plans that dental students are discussing for their future start-up clinics, and looked at their financial/business plans. DentalTown is serving me well so far. Plus, don't forget, you get the free CE as a dental student...all those dental MBA/business courses/practice management courses...that'll help those interested in practice ownership in a few years.

At the same time, whenever I tell people that I am on SDN, they say "Oh that Doom and Gloom site?"- What I am saying is that the perception goes both ways. Sure, DT may have some negative people, but so does SDN.

 

[redmau5]

FWIW, there are some pretty amazing people on there. I don't know if the overwhelming majority has a "glass half empty" mentality...I haven't seen much pessimism there, but I know what you mean. I'm in a group there which has lots of guest speakers, such as CE legends, frequently come and provide us with webinars and enrichment material. I have video-chatted with people who are very successful in their private practice, and learned what took them to that level. I have literally seen designs of the floor plans that dental students are discussing for their future start-up clinics, and looked at their financial/business plans. DentalTown is serving me well so far. Plus, don't forget, you get the free CE as a dental student...all those dental MBA/business courses/practice management courses...that'll help those interested in practice ownership in a few years.

At the same time, whenever I tell people that I am on SDN, they say "Oh that Doom and Gloom site?"- What I am saying is that the perception goes both ways. Sure, DT may have some negative people, but so does SDN.

I hear you loud and clear. No matter the website, there will always be a vocal minority who seem to do nothing but complain about their careers and lives in general. Overall, I think that Dentaltown is an absolutely fantastic resource that provides a lot of perspective, and I am thankful to have found it so early on in my career.

 

[ajj70]

I have to wholeheartedly agree that the first order of business for ANY dental student is to get disability insurance and make sure it is with a GOOD company and that it is "own occupation" coverage, meaning that if you can't be a dentist, the policy pays out. Many plans say if you can't work...well, no you can't be a dentist but maybe you can be a teacher...at a fraction of the income. My mom is a financial planner, drummed this into my head already!!! Oh, and make sure you get the option to increase your policy in the future without medical underwriting.

 

[swindoll]

It's ok bud. Your first divorce will cost you more than 400k

 

[Soleus715]

No problem- I am really grateful to the people who showed me how much stress a large amount of debt can have on someone's financial future, and I just wanted to pass on the knowledge. Good luck.



I agree with you- take things with a grain of salt. Many of the threads I gave to OP have several different people presenting their situations, so I figured that the increased sample size would give OP more certainty about the debt issue.

FWIW, there are some pretty amazing people on there. I don't know if the overwhelming majority has a "glass half empty" mentality...I haven't seen much pessimism there, but I know what you mean. I'm in a group there which has lots of guest speakers, such as CE legends, frequently come and provide us with webinars and enrichment material. I have video-chatted with people who are very successful in their private practice, and learned what took them to that level. I have literally seen designs of the floor plans that dental students are discussing for their future start-up clinics, and looked at their financial/business plans. DentalTown is serving me well so far. Plus, don't forget, you get the free CE as a dental student...all those dental MBA/business courses/practice management courses...that'll help those interested in practice ownership in a few years.

At the same time, whenever I tell people that I am on SDN, they say "Oh that Doom and Gloom site?"- What I am saying is that the perception goes both ways. Sure, DT may have some negative people, but so does SDN.

Yeah it just makes logical sense that more frustrated people would come back to forums to complain. If everything is going well, why would they need to come back to the forums and say "LOOK GUYS LOOK AT ALL THE MONEY IM MAKING!!!"

 

[Incis0r]

It's ok bud. Your first divorce will cost you more than 400k

LOL! This made me smile.
If you go to DT and type in "divorce," you'll see plenty of these accounts.

I'm thinking that maybe I'm not interested in marriage now that you mention the cost of divorce....especially when you consider that America has a 50% divorce rate.

 

[cacajuate]

LOL! This made me smile.
If you go to DT and type in "divorce," you'll see plenty of these accounts.

I'm thinking that maybe I'm not interested in marriage now that you mention the cost of divorce....especially when you consider that America has a 50% divorce rate.

50% dont get divorced. I'd take those odds over being a sad, grumpy single old man.

 

[BobbyBeavis]

50% dont get divorced. I'd take those odds over being a sad, grumpy single old man.

Or just be Hugh Heffner

 

[cacajuate]

Or just be Hugh Heffner

I'd pick Dan bilzerian. Even though he is seems to be a grumpy, sad old man.

 

[Incis0r]

50% dont get divorced. I'd take those odds over being a sad, grumpy single old man.

Good luck with the coin toss.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[cacajuate]

Good luck with the coin toss.

 

[EasTexan]

LOL! This made me smile.
If you go to DT and type in "divorce," you'll see plenty of these accounts.

I'm thinking that maybe I'm not interested in marriage now that you mention the cost of divorce....especially when you consider that America has a 50% divorce rate.

If you were smart like my wife you would marry someone to pay your living expenses while you're in school. We'll make it out with ~$150k in debt, including both our undergrad degrees. If that was pushing 400k it would be a tough choice. In my wife's eyes I think she would still go for it considering she REALLY doesn't want to work for someone else the rest of her life... but yea, off topic. For OP, if I was spending 400k on a dental education I would have to look in to the military, scholarships, and the different long-term and income based repayment plans that I linked to earlier.

@Incis0r I'm surprised you surf DT and don't want to be a practice owner. I can't stay away from the practice management, startup, computer, etc forums. So much good information there. Hellooo Breakaway.

 

[Incis0r]

If you were smart like my wife you would marry someone to pay your living expenses while you're in school.

We'll make it out with ~$150k in debt, including both our undergrad degrees. If that was pushing 400k it would be a tough choice. In my wife's eyes I think she would still go for it considering she REALLY doesn't want to work for someone else the rest of her life... but yea, off topic. For OP, if I was spending 400k on a dental education I would have to look in to the military, scholarships, and the different long-term and income based repayment plans that I linked to earlier.

@Incis0r I'm surprised you surf DT and don't want to be a practice owner. I can't stay away from the practice management, startup, computer, etc forums. So much good information there. Hellooo Breakaway.

Always nice to meet another DTer. Scott Leune is definitely inspirational. He did a webinar for the group I'm in. He's a great example of innovation- he lost the ability to practice dentistry, so he evolved into a world leader in dental CE.

Are you a dentist currently?

Hahaha your wife is indeed smarter than me- a spouse can provide you with a partial "scholarship" throughout school. Still, the four years in the military are a much shorter commitment!

.

FWIW, I am heavily pursuing the HPSP military option (and agree with your recommendation to do so). I have been in contact with my recruiters for many months now, and we have gotten the ball rolling. My recruiters are on top of their game. I apply next year.

150K in debt only- You guys are both in great shape. Lucky Texans. Congratulations. Did I mention that your state is my dream state? I hope to live in TX one day.

And I 100% agree that one of the pearls of dentistry is that you can be your own boss. It is fantastic that you and your wife are taking advantage of this. So many professions do not give you this opportunity. You can craft your own practice philosophy in this profession, and that is wonderful.

Regarding practice ownership and my views- they may change in the future. The main obstacle to it right now is that I keep hearing from dentists about cutthroat competition with the other practice owner down the block. I keep reading accounts of difficult staff (as I'm sure you're familiar with on DT). And many dentists tell me that it's getting harder to have the traditional profitable practice with the decline of FFS/proliferation of PPO, and the constant reduction in PPO reimbursements.

The practice owner of tomorrow will need a new strategy to succeed, compared to the practice owner today. And it is those who are innovative and willing to change who will thrive. I will keep an eye on DT and see how conditions change. If I feel like I can thrive in a practice ownership environment after my military commitment, I'll do it. But right now, I just don't feel comfortable enough to declare 100% that I want to own.

That said, I have a tremendous amount of respect for people who are that driven- it is stressful to run a business, and if someone is driven enough to make it succeed, then that is just amazing.

 

[EasTexan]

Yep, Scott is the real deal. I think I've only come across a single negative review about his CE on DT and it was from a guy who had never attended... Scott also started up shortly after graduating and was tremendously successful. Have good systems, keep the overhead low, bingo.

Nope, not a dentist, I work in medical IT. I just really like the technical side of dentistry and the thought of business ownership, management, all the systems involved, etc. I've been with my wife through the entire application process and kind of her liaison to SDN and DT. When my medical systems run smoothly I have plenty of free time.

We are very fortunate to be going through this process in Texas.

 

[Lock_Jaw]

Of course it is. Look at comparisons between price of dental school in the past and now. Seems like crazy high now, but the dollar just doesn't buy the same as what it did in the past. The increase in inflation makes it seem like it costs more. It really doesn't, and what job offers a steady 200k working 4 days a week? Not many, and dentistry is an awesome profession.

 

[Soleus715]

Of course it is. Look at comparisons between price of dental school in the past and now. Seems like crazy high now, but the dollar just doesn't buy the same as what it did in the past. The increase in inflation makes it seem like it costs more. It really doesn't, and what job offers a steady 200k working 4 days a week? Not many, and dentistry is an awesome profession.

Well, tuition has been outpacing inflation by a great deal in the past decade...

But you do make a great point. Dentists are eventually going to pay off their loans, and it will give dentists a great sigh of relief and financial flex to invest in expanding their practice. It's just a bonus to the great profession that dentistry is.

 

[ajj70]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/02/divorce-rate-declining-_n_6256956.html

The divorce rate is not 50%

As for paying off your loans, that statistic needs to be defined as well. Sure, a lot of dentists are taking 20 years to pay off loans, but that is by CHOICE. Their interest rates are low and they are opting to put the money elsewhere. Its more of a financial planning decision vs a necessity. Just do the math, say you are taking home 100K, one can easily live off of 1/2 of that and put 50K/year toward loans. That gives you a pay off of under 5 years. Now, people may choose NOT to live frugally for those first few years and yes, that is going to lengthen the payback time.

Also, somewhere here is a post by a newer dentist and his plan. He is working for a corporate dentist, putting in extra hours, etc. and bringing home over 150K. He is living a simple life, paying off his loans and putting money away for a private practice. His plan has him doing all of that in 5 years. Not only is he knocking out his debt, he is gaining skill and speed. It can be done if you are smart about how you go about it.

 

[allantois]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/02/divorce-rate-declining-_n_6256956.html

The divorce rate is not 50%

As for paying off your loans, that statistic needs to be defined as well. Sure, a lot of dentists are taking 20 years to pay off loans, but that is by CHOICE. Their interest rates are low and they are opting to put the money elsewhere. Its more of a financial planning decision vs a necessity. Just do the math, say you are taking home 100K, one can easily live off of 1/2 of that and put 50K/year toward loans. That gives you a pay off of under 5 years. Now, people may choose NOT to live frugally for those first few years and yes, that is going to lengthen the payback time.

Also, somewhere here is a post by a newer dentist and his plan. He is working for a corporate dentist, putting in extra hours, etc. and bringing home over 150K. He is living a simple life, paying off his loans and putting money away for a private practice. His plan has him doing all of that in 5 years. Not only is he knocking out his debt, he is gaining skill and speed. It can be done if you are smart about how you go about it.

Eh, the biggest threat to dentistry is financially illiterate people going into profession. Currently, take home pay after taxes off 120k income is 80k (unless your state has no income tax). A school that costs 400k to attend will leave you more with a 470k debt. If you want to live on 50k, your 30k you'll be paying will only go to pay off interest on that loan.

This is assuming your school does not cost more that 100k a year, you have no undergrad debt, and you are not doing GPR/ AEGD. The numbers are absurd, and everybody taking on that debt, better pray to have that debt forgiven.

 

[Incis0r]

I have to wholeheartedly agree that the first order of business for ANY dental student is to get disability insurance and make sure it is with a GOOD company and that it is "own occupation" coverage, meaning that if you can't be a dentist, the policy pays out. Many plans say if you can't work...well, no you can't be a dentist but maybe you can be a teacher...at a fraction of the income. My mom is a financial planner, drummed this into my head already!!! Oh, and make sure you get the option to increase your policy in the future without medical underwriting.

This is a great suggestion. Do you have any specific disability plans that you think are worthwhile?

I looked into the ADA dental student disability plan, and it's free with an ADA student membership, and gets converted to a full plan after you graduate. But any other specific plans you or your mom recommend?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/02/divorce-rate-declining-_n_6256956.html

The divorce rate is not 50%

As for paying off your loans, that statistic needs to be defined as well. Sure, a lot of dentists are taking 20 years to pay off loans, but that is by CHOICE. Their interest rates are low and they are opting to put the money elsewhere. Its more of a financial planning decision vs a necessity. Just do the math, say you are taking home 100K, one can easily live off of 1/2 of that and put 50K/year toward loans. That gives you a pay off of under 5 years. Now, people may choose NOT to live frugally for those first few years and yes, that is going to lengthen the payback time.

Also, somewhere here is a post by a newer dentist and his plan. He is working for a corporate dentist, putting in extra hours, etc. and bringing home over 150K. He is living a simple life, paying off his loans and putting money away for a private practice. His plan has him doing all of that in 5 years. Not only is he knocking out his debt, he is gaining skill and speed. It can be done if you are smart about how you go about it.

Regarding the dentists taking 20 years to pay off their loans- 20 years ago, dental school was MUCH cheaper than it is today. And like you said, they chose to pay loans over 20 years because interest rates were lower then. Which is a sound financial strategy. However, today, federal student loans have a 7% interest rate. That is much higher. Plus the graduates of today have a much higher debt burden than those from 20 years ago.

I had a much longer response written down regarding your calculation of loan repayment, but I just saw what @allantois wrote and I couldn't put it in a better way myself.

 

[Lock_Jaw]

Getting professional advice for both finances and insurance is the very most important thing in determining how to go about things. Dental schools often have both come in during lunch hours and give lunch and learn lectures. It is eye opening and gives a sigh of relief to know that we don't have to know everything there is to it. Get in good relations with a dental specific lawyer, insurance advisor, financial advisor, bank, tax guy, whole shebang and you'll be educated in how you should go about things. Debt scared me at first and I contemplated doing the whole military route, but I am quite happy with my decision even while going to an out of state school.

 

[Incis0r]

Getting professional advice for both finances and insurance is the very most important thing in determining how to go about things. Dental schools often have both come in during lunch hours and give lunch and learn lectures. It is eye opening and gives a sigh of relief to know that we don't have to know everything there is to it. Get in good relations with a dental specific lawyer, insurance advisor, financial advisor, bank, tax guy, whole shebang and you'll be educated in how you should go about things. Debt scared me at first and I contemplated doing the whole military route, but I am quite happy with my decision even while going to an out of state school.

Some good advice in here- knowledge is power.

Out of curiosity, what's your projected debt level?

 

[Lock_Jaw]

Without interest, looking around 300. Granted tuition will increase each year, but whatever make it 310? But i'm lucky because I can get instate tuition after a year, otherwise it'd be closer to 400+. My out of state fee is 40k alone this year. Next year it would be higher but in the fall I'll be instate tuition, otherwise I'd face a 60k extra charge or something near that. Back to studying that biomaterials lecture now

 

[Weakfart]

This is a great suggestion. Do you have any specific disability plans that you think are worthwhile?

I looked into the ADA dental student disability plan, and it's free with an ADA student membership, and gets converted to a full plan after you graduate. But any other specific plans you or your mom recommend?



This is an interesting post, and you clearly put a lot of time into your argument, so I want to respond to it with the same effort.

First of all, I believe that the divorce rates are falling because marriage rates are falling. Consider the U.S. Census data I uploaded below. 70% of men below age of 34 are not married, and 50% of men below age of 50.5 are not married. So basically, 1 out of every 2 males is not married during the "prime" marriage years.View attachment 197968

Regarding the dentists taking 20 years to pay off their loans- 20 years ago, dental school was MUCH cheaper than it is today. And like you said, they chose to pay loans over 20 years because interest rates were lower then. Which is a sound financial strategy. However, today, federal student loans have a 7% interest rate. That is much higher. Plus the graduates of today have a much higher debt burden than those from 20 years ago.

ADEA Tuition link here to 2010:

I had a much longer response written down regarding your calculation of loan repayment, but I just saw what @allantois wrote and I couldn't put it in a better way myself.

Hell, even 10 years ago dental school was much cheaper. Check this out:

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/tuition/2000.html
http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/tuition/2010.html

Just ten years ago, tuition was about 20k cheaper at Penn. That's an 80K over 4 years difference assuming none of the other fees went up (hint hint, they all did). Other schools follow a similar trend, I think everything is increasing anywhere between 3-6k a year for every school.

It's astronomical how much tuition and the overall cost of dental school is increasing. Absolutely unsustainable, so I highly doubt 400k of debt is worth it at all.

 

[Lock_Jaw]

Hell, even 10 years ago dental school was much cheaper. Check this out:

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/tuition/2000.html
http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/tuition/2010.html

Just ten years ago, tuition was about 20k cheaper at Penn. That's an 80K over 4 years difference assuming none of the other fees went up (hint hint, they all did). Other schools follow a similar trend, I think everything is increasing anywhere between 3-6k a year for every school.

It's astronomical how much tuition and the overall cost of dental school is increasing. Absolutely unsustainable, so I highly doubt 400k of debt is worth it at all.

So, inflation has increased 21% since. Use this for comparison. If comparing 80k to 100k now then thats slightly faster than inflation, closer to 25% but comparable. Especially considering the overhead of dentistry only goes up and up with new technology and materials. http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

 

[Lock_Jaw]

You want to know what's not fair! Dental faculty compensation. They really must love teaching, because for a life worth of knowledge they supply they are payed pennies and put in more hours than most dentists. They often only receive 80-90k for teaching where they could easily be practicing making much more. I think that's unfair. Now imagine if we gave them adequate compensation for their work and and picture the price of dental school then. Willing to be it would be north of 100k a year instate, and even more out of state.

 

[allantois]

You want to know what's not fair! Dental faculty compensation. They really must love teaching, because for a life worth of knowledge they supply they are payed pennies and put in more hours than most dentists. They often only receive 80-90k for teaching where they could easily be practicing making much more. I think that's unfair. Now imagine if we gave them adequate compensation for their work and and picture the price of dental school then. Willing to be it would be north of 100k a year instate, and even more out of state.

Med schools mostly rely on volunteer faculty, I don't see why dental schools shouldn't follow the suit.

 

[Lock_Jaw]

Volunteer faculty is nice for some things maybe. But the overwhelming majority of my class don't enjoy our biochemistry course because we have this sort of setup where we have 6 people teaching us for one test. Don't get any sort of consistency and many of the professional biochemists don't understand much of what we really should know vs complex details that have nothing to do with dentistry. I see your point, but that's why the majority of professors are older retired private practice or foreign dentists. They see it as a great job and are able to help. Pros and Cons to both I suppose. Maybe medicine is a little easier for volunteer lecturers, I don't know I'm not in medicine. We do however have the same anatomy course as M1's and M2's for the most part. Same lectures, same faculty.

 

[ajj70]

Eh, the biggest threat to dentistry is financially illiterate people going into profession. Currently, take home pay after taxes off 120k income is 80k (unless your state has no income tax). A school that costs 400k to attend will leave you more with a 470k debt. If you want to live on 50k, your 30k you'll be paying will only go to pay off interest on that loan.

This is assuming your school does not cost more that 100k a year, you have no undergrad debt, and you are not doing GPR/ AEGD. The numbers are absurd, and everybody taking on that debt, better pray to have that debt forgiven.

or people that don't read...I said TAKE HOME, not gross ...and true, I didn't factor in interest, but as an example, the point was, the TIME it takes to pay off loans isn't always out of necessity vs choice.....