Is it inappropriate to ask for a 4+ month break in my lab

[Halcyon32]

I have been part of a neurobiology lab since january of this year. Since starting, I would come at least 20-25 hours/week during the semester, as well as during summer. However, this semester I lessened my hours to about 10-15 hours/week mainly because I needed to start studying for the MCAT which I plan to take in January 2017. However, reducing my hours turned out to be not enough because I still end up getting home late (I have a 1 and a half hour commute) and any spare time I often have to devote to my classes instead of the MCAT. So, I feel like I'm forced to quit my lab at least until the end of January because I really need to devote some serious time for the MCAT. My question is, is this a too big of a demand to ask of my PI and would it create bitter feelings toward me? Also, how should I go about asking him this without breaking our relationship.

Honestly, if I could just quit that lab entirely I'd be fine with it because I feel like I'm being used as a volunteer to do the same things every single day: Genotyping and animal colony work. Almost every day for 9 months. Maybe this is normal for a lab and I'm just disillusioned but I truly feel like I have stagnated and am learning nothing new and could be making greater strides in a different lab. However, I want to be in good standing with the PI to ultimately ask for a LOR from him so I feel like quitting the lab altogether would destroy that possibility.

If you guys could advise me on these situations I would really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!

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[DingoPingo]

Unless one of us knows your pi, we can't say. Just quit and see what happens. I quit my lab abruptly for health reasons and my pi still likes me

 

[eteshoe]

Just explain your situation to your PI. Reasonable ones will understand and try to accommodate (aka coming back after the MCAT)

 

[NotYou20]

Your pi won't hold it against you unless he's an absolute dingus. If you want to keep volunteering there for a reason other than a lor ask for the time off understanding the role might be filled in four months. If you aren't getting anything from it just quit

 

[Lawpy]

Just explain your situation to your PI. Reasonable ones will understand and try to accommodate (aka coming back after the MCAT)

I agree. However, the key point here is the PI being reasonable. There are sadly many that aren't (at least given from SDN threads in the past about PIs holding letters hostage over a disorganized notebook)

 

[SydSing]

We have a few volunteers in my lab. Truth be told, you are being used for genotyping. It's not something post-docs do and the techs (myself included) in labs where I am are usually bogged down.

We did have a volunteer ask to learn a few staining and sectioning techniques and my PI let her do that... perhaps you could ask?

As for taking time off, I doubt it'll cause any issues.

Edit: Keep in mind, at 10-15 hours/week you won't be getting to do anything too complex. I know in my lab we all work 50-60 hours a week and if someone is only there 10-15... the likelihood that they could match up times to learn from others and follow through on the experiment would be slim.

 

[Halcyon32]

Your pi won't hold it against you unless he's an absolute dingus. If you want to keep volunteering there for a reason other than a lor ask for the time off understanding the role might be filled in four months. If you aren't getting anything from it just quit

I agree. However, the key point here is the PI being reasonable. There are sadly many that aren't (at least given from SDN threads in the past about PIs holding letters hostage over a disorganized notebook)

Any advice on how could I go about quitting entirely while still being on his good side? I would vocalize that I have been doing essentially the same thing for the past 9 months and am not gaining any benefit but I know he would just say he will tell the postdoc I work under to teach me new things (which he has done in the past) but then the postdoc complains that I do not come in enough (when I come in more than I'm technically allowed to as an undergrad student) and just piles more PCRs on me. It's infuriating but even in the summer when I came in at least 25 hours a week for free, i was doing the same things so I know during the semester there's no chance of progression.

 

[eteshoe]

I agree. However, the key point here is the PI being reasonable. There are sadly many that aren't (at least given from SDN threads in the past about PIs holding letters hostage over a disorganized notebook)

True

 

[Lawpy]

Any advice on how could I go about quitting entirely while still being on his good side? I would vocalize that I have been doing essentially the same thing for the past 9 months and am not gaining any benefit but I know he would just say he will tell the postdoc I work under to teach me new things (which he has done in the past) but then the postdoc complains that I do not come in enough (when I come in more than I'm technically allowed to as an undergrad student) and just piles more PCRs on me. It's infuriating but even in the summer when I came in at least 25 hours a week for free, i was doing the same things so I know during the semester there's no chance of progression.

Wait sorry, your PI is unable to give you four months off for MCAT prep? I think quitting the lab is a bit extreme, but it may be necessary if your PI is not receptive (even then, you can try asking for some time off due to personal emergency).

 

[Goro]

Just tell you PI you need more time for other stuff, and start taring down your hours, until it's time for your break.

And like it or not, you need a good MCAT score far more than you need the PI and the lab.

I have been part of a neurobiology lab since january of this year. Since starting, I would come at least 20-25 hours/week during the semester, as well as during summer. However, this semester I lessened my hours to about 10-15 hours/week mainly because I needed to start studying for the MCAT which I plan to take in January 2017. However, reducing my hours turned out to be not enough because I still end up getting home late (I have a 1 and a half hour commute) and any spare time I often have to devote to my classes instead of the MCAT. So, I feel like I'm forced to quit my lab at least until the end of January because I really need to devote some serious time for the MCAT. My question is, is this a too big of a demand to ask of my PI and would it create bitter feelings toward me? Also, how should I go about asking him this without breaking our relationship.

Honestly, if I could just quit that lab entirely I'd be fine with it because I feel like I'm being used as a volunteer to do the same things every single day: Genotyping and animal colony work. Almost every day for 9 months. Maybe this is normal for a lab and I'm just disillusioned but I truly feel like I have stagnated and am learning nothing new and could be making greater strides in a different lab. However, I want to be in good standing with the PI to ultimately ask for a LOR from him so I feel like quitting the lab altogether would destroy that possibility.

If you guys could advise me on these situations I would really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Halcyon32]

Wait sorry, your PI is unable to give you four months off for MCAT prep? I think quitting the lab is a bit extreme, but it may be necessary if your PI is not receptive (even then, you can try asking for some time off due to personal emergency).

No, I'm sure he would be fine with me taking the time off but I just wanted to know if there was an ideal way to go about doing it so as to cause as little frustration on his part towards me. Just, like, if there's some "lab etiquette" about this that I didn't know about. The reason I want to quit entirely isn't for the MCAT, I just want to take 4 months off for the MCAT. But I want to quit entirely because I'm not gaining anything from being in that specific lab and feel I'm being used. Regardless of anything, I'm going to take the 4 months off for the MCAT but I just wanted advice on how I can bring up that I want to quit the lab forever while still having his favor. If that makes sense.

 

[ifnotnowwren]

No, I'm sure he would be fine with me taking the time off but I just wanted to know if there was an ideal way to go about doing it so as to cause as little frustration on his part towards me. Just, like, if there's some "lab etiquette" about this that I didn't know about. The reason I want to quit entirely isn't for the MCAT, I just want to take 4 months off for the MCAT. But I want to quit entirely because I'm not gaining anything from being in that specific lab and feel I'm being used. Regardless of anything, I'm going to take the 4 months off for the MCAT but I just wanted advice on how I can bring up that I want to quit the lab forever while still having his favor. If that makes sense.

Does he know what your overall goals are? My PI knew that my ultimate goals were medicine, not a PhD, and this informed everything about my time in the lab. This will be a lot easier if you have already discussed that you are wanting to earn your MD before this moment. Just ask if your PI has a moment to talk, and tell him that you are feeling like you need to take a few months off to study for the MCAT. Explain that the hour and a half commute is part of the problem. I don't know how large your lab is or what you do there, but in my experience, PIs don't generally want to lose student researchers because it's a pain to train someone completely new, so he may be willing to give you that break.

 

[Halcyon32]

Does he know what your overall goals are? My PI knew that my ultimate goals were medicine, not a PhD, and this informed everything about my time in the lab. This will be a lot easier if you have already discussed that you are wanting to earn your MD before this moment. Just ask if your PI has a moment to talk, and tell him that you are feeling like you need to take a few months off to study for the MCAT. Explain that the hour and a half commute is part of the problem. I don't know how large your lab is or what you do there, but in my experience, PIs don't generally want to lose student researchers because it's a pain to train someone completely new, so he may be willing to give you that break.

Yeah, he knows I'm going MD. He's even trying to encourage me to follow the MD/PhD path but given that I have a narrow scope of the things one can do in a lab since I've been genotyping almost exclusively, I'm not sure if I want the PhD

 

[DrCaffeinated]

You can just say you need to take a break for now citing personal reasons without giving a specific time period. You can say you need more time to study as you get ready for the mcat and applying to med school. Just leave on good terms and ask if you can count on him for a good letter of rec.

 

[Oncie]

I think you should ask for a letter of recommendation then quit. Tell them you want to start working and you would prefer to devote your time to school.

 

[Halcyon32]

You can just say you need to take a break for now citing personal reasons without giving a specific time period. You can say you need more time to study as you get ready for the mcat and applying to med school. Just leave on good terms and ask if you can count on him for a good letter of rec.

Wouldn't it be distasteful to ask him for a letter at the same time that I tell him that I won't be in the lab for 4 months?

 

[DrCaffeinated]

Wouldn't it be distasteful to ask him for a letter at the same time that I tell him that I won't be in the lab for 4 months?

I don't think it should be, undergrads are like slave labor for the lab. IMO you don't owe him anything, you can't be the first undergrad that's had to cut back on a research commitment... but if he's the type to hold it against you, maybe you should get that letter before you quit, have him submit it to interfolio so you have it when you apply.

However it might look worse if you get the letter and then quit... but them it won't matter as much.

 

[Halcyon32]

Thanks for the help, everyone!

 

[ATPsynthase123]

Unless one of us knows your pi, we can't say. Just quit and see what happens. I quit my lab abruptly for health reasons and my pi still likes me

I quit mine to get my academics in order, apply to medical school, and study for the MCAT. I am currently co-authoring a paper with him on our research and going to help out in the lab in the spring until graduation.


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[peenut_butter]

We have a few volunteers in my lab. Truth be told, you are being used for genotyping. It's not something post-docs do and the techs (myself included) in labs where I am are usually bogged down.

We did have a volunteer ask to learn a few staining and sectioning techniques and my PI let her do that... perhaps you could ask?

As for taking time off, I doubt it'll cause any issues.

Edit: Keep in mind, at 10-15 hours/week you won't be getting to do anything too complex. I know in my lab we all work 50-60 hours a week and if someone is only there 10-15... the likelihood that they could match up times to learn from others and follow through on the experiment would be slim.

Do you get paid for overtime when you work 50-60 hrs a week as a tech?

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[SydSing]

Do you get paid for overtime when you work 50-60 hrs a week as a tech?

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Not directly but yes, because it rolls into my vacation time. I'm taking a lot of time off right now and since my PI doesn't mind, it's easy to utilize that roll-over.

Edit: I was told this was how it works but I have noticed extra money from OT before so I'm not sure. Maybe it's capped? I should probably ask...

 

[peenut_butter]

Not directly but yes, because it rolls into my vacation time. I'm taking a lot of time off right now and since my PI doesn't mind, it's easy to utilize that roll-over.

Edit: I was told this was how it works but I have noticed extra money from OT before so I'm not sure. Maybe it's capped? I should probably ask...

Thanks! I have just heard that a lot of research techs / post docs just work over time in labs with no expectations of compensation for that overtime for the sake of research. Not sure if this was the norm.

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[runningpenguin00]

Any advice on how could I go about quitting entirely while still being on his good side? I would vocalize that I have been doing essentially the same thing for the past 9 months and am not gaining any benefit but I know he would just say he will tell the postdoc I work under to teach me new things (which he has done in the past) but then the postdoc complains that I do not come in enough (when I come in more than I'm technically allowed to as an undergrad student) and just piles more PCRs on me. It's infuriating but even in the summer when I came in at least 25 hours a week for free, i was doing the same things so I know during the semester there's no chance of progression.

Is it normal to volunteer 25 hours for free (that's part-time work)? Even the people who I know who won all the major awards in undergrad for research were averaging about 15-20 hours/week (and I graduated from a large university that was top 15 & know a lot of people). Most of the people who I know were doing anywhere from 7-15 (their focus was elsewhere). When you think about it, even 15 hours/week is a lot, especially since undergraduates are given work that is often redundant and doesn't involve too much intellectual stimulation. Granted the research process is very time-consuming & should be treated as an internship or job, but still...

 

[Shirafune]

Yeah, he knows I'm going MD. He's even trying to encourage me to follow the MD/PhD path but given that I have a narrow scope of the things one can do in a lab since I've been genotyping almost exclusively, I'm not sure if I want the PhD

Your PI sounds very supportive and flexible, so just keep open and clear communication with your PI and everything should be alright. 9 months in a lab just genotyping is typical free undergraduate slave labor at 20 - 25 hours a week. Since your PI is nudging you into MD/PhD, how have you responded? Do you take the initiative to read up on the field yourself? Do you participate during lab meeting by posing questions about post-doc/graduate research (i.e. pointing out an interesting trend not mentioned or a potential experimental design flaw)? Do you ask your post-doc to learn new techniques and COME PREPARED by reviewing the protocols beforehand and understanding how the assay works conceptually? Some labs will take the time to hold your hand and actively mentor undergraduates, others, like yours, not so much. In the latter cases, it's up to you to reach out and self-initiate your own opportunities. While there are certainly many labs that 100% oppose undergraduates doing any more than just repetitive labor, your lab doesn't seem like that. You just got stuck with a post-doc that more or less doesn't care about you.

Thanks! I have just heard that a lot of research techs / post docs just work over time in labs with no expectations of compensation for that overtime for the sake of research. Not sure if this was the norm.

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It's very common for research staff to work ridiculous amounts of hours without overtime compensation. My PI expressly told me to not track my OT hours because those are "expensive and we can work something else out," but I'm sure many researchers feel like 40 hrs/week is not enough time to produce the data, analyze the data, prepare for lab meeting, manage undergraduate helpers, among other tasks.

Is it normal to volunteer 25 hours for free (that's part-time work)? Even the people who I know who won all the major awards in undergrad for research were averaging about 15-20 hours/week (and I graduated from a large university that was top 15 & know a lot of people). Most of the people who I know were doing anywhere from 7-15 (their focus was elsewhere). When you think about it, even 15 hours/week is a lot, especially since undergraduates are given work that is often redundant and doesn't involve too much intellectual stimulation. Granted the research process is very time-consuming & should be treated as an internship or job, but still...

At my alma mater, 10 hrs/week is kind of the minimum. Most labs expect 10-15 hours/wk; labs with higher expectations typically asked for 15-20 hrs/week. Anything beyond that was dependent on the student's commitment, though most of these individuals were running independent projects. My personal opinion is that undergrads shouldn't expect much freedom for 10-15/week; 20+ is the minimum to doing anything substantial for an independent project, but that also depends on how quickly the lab likes to publish things (many small papers vs one fat paper), the nature of the field, and how much a lab trusts the undergrad.

 

[runningpenguin00]

I see. I have a different experience, though perhaps I'm older and don't remember properly. The individuals who won the major research awards & ended up going to top 10 med schools were averaging about 20 hours a week, getting good grades/scores, great ECs, etc. They didn't really miss a beat. Some were MD/PhD too. But I think it's just a matter of selection, with each of us knowing different people & perhaps having a different culture/set of expectations at our respective schools.

Post-college, volunteering something like 10-15 hours while working is considered quite a bit.

 

[Petrichor1]

It's up to you. Personally, I would say to ask for a leave of absence and have the possibility to return. If you don't like the research or lab, quit. I don't know why you guys think research and then poster or publications are such a big deal. I used to be like that and have since left the thought. Research is all about working for free with no return. Publications and what have you is all about being at a place at the right time and place. I'm glad I left and am now focusing on things like real work (you know the things we really go to college for?). As far as md/phd, go and work with one. Even though the benefit of have free degrees is great, you have to realize that you are really just going to be a scientist. I laugh when I hear how premeds at interviews look favorably at mstp applicants. Yea they might be stellar applicants but rarely do I meet someone who understands what mdphd route truly means.

 

[runningpenguin00]

It's up to you. Personally, I would say to ask for a leave of absence and have the possibility to return. If you don't like the research or lab, quit. I don't know why you guys think research and then poster or publications are such a big deal. I used to be like that and have since left the thought. Research is all about working for free with no return. Publications and what have you is all about being at a place at the right time and place. I'm glad I left and am now focusing on things like real work (you know the things we really go to college for?). As far as md/phd, go and work with one. Even though the benefit of have free degrees is great, you have to realize that you are really just going to be a scientist. I laugh when I hear how premeds at interviews look favorably at mstp applicants. Yea they might be stellar applicants but rarely do I meet someone who understands what mdphd route truly means.

I agree with quite a bit of what you wrote. I once had a PI once say that unless I could come in for at least 10+ hours a week, there was nothing else he could give me to do other than something along the lines of animal maintenance (e.g. taking care of them, cleaning their cages, etc.) because learning anything more would require more time....

 

[Petrichor1]

I agree with quite a bit of what you wrote. I once had a PI once say that unless I could come in for at least 10+ hours a week, there was nothing else he could give me to do other than something along the lines of animal maintenance (e.g. taking care of them, cleaning their cages, etc.) because learning anything more would require more time....

Lol I'm hoping you came only 10 hrs per week or less. Some PIs (most) just say that cause they could get more labor out of you, you know the usual scare tactic. Publication seems to be more abt luck and well connectedness. If you can coherently keep tab on what's going on, you should have no business doing research 20 hrs a week while as a student...unless you are trying for the goldwater or a harvard phd...give me a break. This is not me tauting an attitude but I really feel that research is highly unpredictable of a measure in sorting students. A family member in academia was discussing how their cooked data is handed to undergrads to expand on or that their research plan is provided to students who barely can walk the talk. Yet, any premed kid who can get into college can articulate what they did conceptually. Personally, ppl should get lab jobs and then try research with their basic skills. Research should be left to the masters and phd folks just because they are getting paid to do it and taught to do it. Unless you find a wonderful mentor try to stay away from those just there to do scuttle work. Might as well be a housekeeping staff member earning minimum wage. You can wait for better opportunities like a real job where they teach you molecular and genotype work in your first 2 hours there. Go venture some nearby companies while you're still in school cause once you are out you can't do their internship, and stop wasting time at the uni where you are not expected to be there past graduation.

 

[runningpenguin00]

Lol yeah that was actually the interview to join the lab. I said no very soon after. I had no intention of working for a PI like that. Imagine how many hours I'd have to crank out to get an independent project!

 

[Halcyon32]

Just to update anyone who cares: I spoke with my PI yesterday about taking a break and it was probably the best interaction I've ever had with him. He completely understood my need to focus on the MCAT and told me to take as much time as I needed to do well on it. In terms of me basically doing slave labor in the lab, he said that my standing and knowledge of lab processes is on par with other undergrads (which I still don't feel to be the case) but he acknowledged that a lot of the reason that I end up doing the same work over and over is because the post doc I got stuck under is very implicit and doesn't like teaching things and that the atmosphere of the lab was likely to get better by the time I returned.

Basically, everything went better than I could have hoped for and thank you all for your advice! Wish me luck while studying for the MCAT!