Hi all, been out of school 3 years and own my own practice (all paid off except 200k in student loans). Make a very nice income, but find myself very interested in ortho. Is it worth it for me to apply this coming cycle to go back and pay tuition for 2-3 years? Rumors have been that the ortho outlook is bleak in the near future.
Is orthodontics worth it for me?
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Why not concentrate on building up your own practice to make it even more profitable? I'm guessing 2-3 years of lost income plus tuition for ortho would set you back at least another $500K. You can always take those extended CE courses on the side. If you hate dentistry that another story.
It would be about 500k. I don't hate dentistry, but the CE classes for ortho are lackluster. Invisalign just wants to sell their product, and six month smiles is half assed ortho. If I get into residency close by my office I can work nights and weekend to off set the cost. I feel that I may get more professional satisfaction out of ortho and could practice longer considering how less physically demanding it is. Not sure if I would even match so it could all be just a moot point.
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Have you talked to any orthos in your area to see how the market is? Would your income likely increase as an Ortho, or is it more of a lifestyle thing?
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If you're interested in ortho, then yes it is worth it. Everyone looks at this from a purely financial aspect and that is not enough. You have to consider the strain general dentistry puts on your body vs. ortho. It's really no comparison. If you like ortho, yes, you should go for it. Maybe you can find someone to work in your office while you're in school so that you continue generating income.
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It depends, they are not starving by any means. I am sure it's harder for a new grad than an established one. Not sure how much it was change by if at all.
100% agree that ortho is very much less physically demanding, but it definitely is not the slam dunk profession it was earlier. Anyone have any opinions on the current market for orthodontists?
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wouldn't this part be mitigated by the fact you have a built-in referral base from your own patients?
and what exactly do people mean when they say the ortho outlook is bleak? and who are the ones saying it? i figured as long as people (americans) have permanent teeth, many of them will want them straightened in some way. it's not like the profession will fall off a cliff, right? right?!
It would be, but I could no longer do the general dentistry. I would just use the space instead of the patients. It's because of the influx of recent grads, the economy, student loans, saturation, older orthos not retiring, gps doing more ortho, which basically lowers the fees for ortho. The supply is high so the demand decreases.
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What would be sweet is if you had associates run your practice while you were in Ortho residency and you still took a larger cut of collections as the owner. Then when you get out, convert your existing space to ortho. Haha, not even sure if that's possible though.
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Don't forget people having less kids as well and people putting off having kids because of the recession. The fertility rate in America is at an all-time low.
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C.E. shows the better ROI
Yea that is definitely a possibility
Good point, many factors as to why the ortho future is less glamorous than it was
It more than likely does, and there are aspects of general dentistry I will miss. The technological advances including cerec and guided surgery are parts tough to give up. The future is also paved more for the gp. Every choice is made with pros and cons though and the grass is always greener on one side then the other. At this point, I am still debating my application.
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More power to you. The heart desires what it wants. Be fiscally wise and hire an associate or 2 to keep your practice churning in the interim.
I am always in awe at the number of people who don't know or remember the most basic tenet of economics, supply and demand.
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What is the lowest rank percentage someone should consider for applying to ortho?
For example, is top 20% the absolute MINIMUM chance someone could potentially get into ortho?
For example, is top 20% the absolute MINIMUM chance someone could potentially get into ortho?
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http://media.wix.com/ugd/d96fe0_ad02c2a317861009aae7796bbd2016d4.pdf
I don't think it happened yet but too many high tuition and non selective ortho programs are opening up. This will lead to saturation -> more competition from desperate high debt new graduates -> competitively lowered prices? -> lower income and more group practices?
Why doesn't ortho self regulate how many programs are open like OMFS? I think OMFS self regulate how many open residency spots are available each year during the match process to balance the supply and demand.
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i AM pretty awesome, i know. and thanks for pointing out the post ITT that showed the relevant patient/provider demographics and trends that i clearly missed in my haste to make the post you quoted. oh wait, there wasn't one.
i see what you're getting at here. i'm unaware of the supply of orthos and the number of programs out there, but if there is a glut without the regulation enjoyed by omfs and other select medical specialties it appears there will be a squeeze in the not too distant future.
also read that document, was it authored by chicken little?
ortho is already the largest specialty with far more specialists in its field than all of the other dental specialties, combined. Once upon a time I had seriously considered ortho, but after doing my own research and interviewing every ortho resident I can find as well as talking to established orthodontists I quickly determined that the ROI would not be worthwhile. You can't take the situation that ortho was 10 years ago and apply it to the current times anymore. Here in TX you should see the number of orthodontists in search of jobs or going broke since the Medicaid bubble burst two years ago.
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If you only target the same top 20% income earners like most other orthodontists, then you'll face a serious problem. You are just a new grad and your office doesn't have a track record of producing good ortho tx results. Why would a person, who has good income, want to choose your office over other established ortho offices?
The ortho residents have been brainwashed by their instructors that in order to attract more patients and to survive in a competitive market, they must bring the latest technology to the practice. During their residency training, they were spoiled with all the high tech gadgets. When they got out, no chain office wanted to hire them because they couldn't work in a low tech office. When they got out, they spent $300-400k to build a state-of-the-art practice in an affluent area. They charge a consultation fee when most other orthodontists don't. And then they go around and complain why no patient come to see them. They charge $5k for a simple case that can easily be finished in less than 18 months, and they wonder why nobody accept the treatment. Then they come to this forum and say ortho specialty is dying.
I don't deny the fact that there is an oversupply of orthodontists but the demand for ortho tx is also very high. Most parents want their kids to look good and have beautiful smiles. The problem is many of them cannot afford the expensive orthodontic treatments. It's tough for families who depend on paycheck by paycheck and have 2-3 children, who need braces. So if you target this low-income group of patients who can't afford tx at other ortho offices and are largely ignored by other ortho offices, you will do very well. Don't worry about charging low fees. Just get as many people to start the tx at your office as possible. The more beautiful cases you finish, the more people who will know about your practice and the more successful you will be. For a general dentist to make $3000 for doing a 2nd molar RCT+buildup+crown, he/she needs to spend at least 2 hours. The doctor's time for doing a full 2-year ortho case is about an hour.....and you rarely use your hands.
The ortho residents have been brainwashed by their instructors that in order to attract more patients and to survive in a competitive market, they must bring the latest technology to the practice. During their residency training, they were spoiled with all the high tech gadgets. When they got out, no chain office wanted to hire them because they couldn't work in a low tech office. When they got out, they spent $300-400k to build a state-of-the-art practice in an affluent area. They charge a consultation fee when most other orthodontists don't. And then they go around and complain why no patient come to see them. They charge $5k for a simple case that can easily be finished in less than 18 months, and they wonder why nobody accept the treatment. Then they come to this forum and say ortho specialty is dying.
I don't deny the fact that there is an oversupply of orthodontists but the demand for ortho tx is also very high. Most parents want their kids to look good and have beautiful smiles. The problem is many of them cannot afford the expensive orthodontic treatments. It's tough for families who depend on paycheck by paycheck and have 2-3 children, who need braces. So if you target this low-income group of patients who can't afford tx at other ortho offices and are largely ignored by other ortho offices, you will do very well. Don't worry about charging low fees. Just get as many people to start the tx at your office as possible. The more beautiful cases you finish, the more people who will know about your practice and the more successful you will be. For a general dentist to make $3000 for doing a 2nd molar RCT+buildup+crown, he/she needs to spend at least 2 hours. The doctor's time for doing a full 2-year ortho case is about an hour.....and you rarely use your hands.
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I do appreciate the advice and I do agree with you. What do you think the future of the speciality is?
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To be honest, I don't really know what the specialty will be like in the future. I can only predict that things will get worse not just for ortho but for general dentistry and other dental specialties as well. More new dental schools = oversaturation of GPs and specialists. People from the younger generation (you, your kids and your grand kids) will have less money to spend on dental treatments because they will have to pay higher taxes to fund the new entitlement programs, government bailouts, and $16 trillion national debt, which keeps on rising. The young working professionals will also have smaller disposable income to spend on the dental/ortho treatments because they, like us, owe a lot in student loans as well. In order to survive, I think the future dentists and specialists will have to reduce their fees to make the treatments more affordable for their patients.....and keep the overhead as low as possible.
In the past, many orthodontists did very well with just one office location. They didn't need to work on weekend and late hours. Now, many orthodontists, myself included, have to open more than one office location and work on weekends in order to attract more patients. I think it is a huge mistake for a recent grad orthodontist to spend a huge amount of money to build one nice big office. Instead, one should spend the same amount of money to build 2-3 different smaller simpler offices....or share an office space with another specialist.
011110, if you apply now and get accepted to an ortho program, you will be way ahead of many of your co-residents when you get out. Unlike them, you'll have smaller student loan debt. You don't need to spend money to set up an ortho practice because you already have one. Unlike your co-residents, who have no clue how to rung a business, you have 3 years of experience in running a dental office.
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Orthodontists aren't starving. That said, the market for orthodontists is very difficult. Thirty years ago an orthodontist could hang a shingle in a growing suburb and build a busy practice within a year. There were so many growing suburbs that it didn't make much sense for another orthodontist to move into your area. Now, however, the country is not expanding in the way it used to be. The number of practicing orthodontists is increasing. The number of general dentists is also increasing. The market general dentists is bad too. General dentists can't fill there schedules with pros (the typical bread and butter of the general dentist) so they dabble in everything, including orthodontics. Thirty years ago, it was practically unheard of for a general dentist to do ortho. Now, it's on every GP's website (Invisalign, braces, 6 month smiles, etc.).
In order to be successful, orthodontists are opening multiple practices because it is too difficult to keep one practice busy 4 to 5 days per week. That's not guaranteed success either. I have seen several orthodontists half heartedly open a satellite only to try and sell it to some sucker 2 years later when it turned out to be a money pit.
