Is shadowing absolutely necessary

[htdt]

Hi all,

I just finished my freshman year of college. I have had 6 months of volunteer experience in a hospital setting, although I don't get a whole lot of patient contact. This Fall semester I'll be a Research Associate and I'll be doing clinical research, which means I'll work a lot with patients, nurses and physicians. Some people suggest shadowing a couple of physicians, but I don't particularly like the idea of mere observing. Is shadowing ABSOLUTELY necessary? Can I compensate it with other patient-related activities such as volunteering, clinical research...? If shadowing is indeed necessary, should I start to do it during my sophomore year, or can I just wait until the summer before my junior year to do that? Would that be too late for it?

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[sudo]

Shadowing, aside from other forms of clinical experience, is necessary. Most adcoms that I've met with suggest 150hrs of "shadowing". YMMV but I'd recommend some actual shadowing...that way you can also see what different specialities do.

Sent from my SPH-L720

 

[Radon XP]

How many shadowing hours should on typically get from one gig (i.e. how many different doctors will 150 hours usually be)?

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Shadowing, aside from other forms of clinical experience, is necessary. Most adcoms that I've met with suggest 150hrs of "shadowing". YMMV but I'd recommend some actual shadowing...that way you can also see what different specialities do.

Sent from my SPH-L720

150 hours of shadowing is almost impossible to come by. Where I live shadowing is simply not allowed due to liabilities unless you are a med student already or personally know a doc. 150 hrs of volunteering + shadowing is more realistic. You just need some form of clinical experience, but there are many ways to get it. Volunteering at an ER, or any clinic for that matter should give you the experience to be able to tell a story about it. It's rare that you will actually find a doc that let's you shadow them. I had no shadowing but volunteered at a hospital. Volunteering in an ER during weekend nights will give you plenty to talk about.

 

[sudo]

150 hours of shadowing is almost impossible to come by. Where I live shadowing is simply not allowed due to liabilities unless you are a med student already or personally know a doc. 150 hrs of volunteering + shadowing is more realistic. You just need some form of clinical experience, but there are many ways to get it.

Yeah, 150 isn't required. It's just a number that resonates with me that I remember from some adcoms.

Sent from my SPH-L720

 

[pathologyDO]

Shadowing IS necessary. How do you know what the job of a physician from day-to-day is without shadowing experience? Rhetorical question. Adcoms want you to make a mature decision about going into medicine, which of course includes having seen what a physician does.

100 hours is a pretty good amount. I did a little more than that between 3 different physicians.

 

[gocanes1990]

My premed advisor, at a top 50 school, said that above all shadowing is the number 1! necessary EC. Since most people go for mid tier and below medical schools, it is way more important than research. He said that at least 100 hours by 2-3 different doctors. He said at the medical school associated with our undergrad, cough cough its in Florida, that shadowing is the first EC they look at, then volunteer and research. Just my two cents.

Shadow early and a lot.

 

[Bamfu]

Adcoms just want to know that you know what you're getting into. Shadowing is the best way to see everything a physician has to do without your having to do something else (volunteer work or a job of your own working with physicians). I think it's extremely important. Adcoms want to see their acceptances stay and finish school, and if a student hasn't seen firsthand what they'll be doing, there's a chance they could hate it or get cold feet when they get into a hospital. That's a wasted spot and a ton of wasted money.

Radon: I'd say that depends on who you shadow. In my experience, FPs are happy to have you come back any number of times, but specialists can be so busy that it may be a 1-2 instance thing - and maybe for weird hours. A radiologist I had some experience with had me come in at 6 AM, and I was out at 11:30 AM. He spends time all over the country, so I only got the one session with him. Conversely, with the FPs I spent time with, I had multiple 8 hour sessions.

I know some students that picked up 150 hours between just 2 doctors. They were friends with the docs, though.

 

[deleted307836]

Shadowing, aside from other forms of clinical experience, is necessary. Most adcoms that I've met with suggest 150hrs of "shadowing". YMMV but I'd recommend some actual shadowing...that way you can also see what different specialities do.

Sent from my SPH-L720

This is what causes SDN posters to become neurotic. I don't mean to put you down, sudo. But your number is presented as some sort of de facto requirement for admissions.

150 hours is really quite a lot.

Also, I think it really depends on job experience you've had. If you've spent a lot of time ED scribing, that's somewhat of a more active version of shadowing, and I'd imagine that really counts for a lot.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Shadowing IS necessary. How do you know what the job of a physician from day-to-day is without shadowing experience? Rhetorical question. Adcoms want you to make a mature decision about going into medicine, which of course includes having seen what a physician does.

100 hours is a pretty good amount. I did a little more than that between 3 different physicians.

If it WAS necessary I wouldn't have been accepted. You don't have to specifically shadow to see the day-to-day of a clinic and make a mature decision. Shadowing is the best type of clinical experience IF you are lucky to find it, but it definitely ISN'T a necessity. Clinical experience is, and shadowing is just one type of experience.

Letting undergrads shadow is a HUGE liability, and the only people I know that shadowed were snuck in by a doc they know and had to pretend to be med students. It definitely was not legal.

 

[talinnlove]

Is shadowing ABSOLUTELY necessary? Can I compensate it with other patient-related activities such as volunteering, clinical research...? If shadowing is indeed necessary, should I start to do it during my sophomore year, or can I just wait until the summer before my junior year to do that? Would that be too late for it?

This page answers some of your questions: http://www.uwmedicine.org/Education/MD-Program/Admissions/Pages/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.aspx#shadow

tl;dr: Yes, it is necessary for some schools (40 hours is the given minimum at UW). No, you cannot replace it with volunteering. Yes, you should start as early as possible, but no, it would not be too late to start as a junior.

How many shadowing hours should on typically get from one gig (i.e. how many different doctors will 150 hours usually be)?

I broke the 150 hour mark with the eighth doctor I shadowed. My shortest shadowing experience with a single doc was 5 hours, and my longest was 60 hours.

 

[pathologyDO]

If it WAS necessary I wouldn't have been accepted. You don't have to specifically shadow to see the day-to-day of a clinic and make a mature decision. Shadowing is the best type of clinical experience IF you are lucky to find it, but it definitely ISN'T a necessity. Clinical experience is, and shadowing is just one type of experience.

Letting undergrads shadow is a HUGE liability, and the only people I know that shadowed were snuck in by a doc they know and had to pretend to be med students. It definitely was not legal.

Hey.. to each their own... Personally, I believe a variety of shadowing experiences with a variety of physicians is a surer way to getting an acceptance as compared to simply not shadowing.

Of course n=1 with both of us, but I think that if you ask SDN as a whole you will see that most successful applicants do have around the 100 hour mark for shadowing.

 

[sinombre]

If it WAS necessary I wouldn't have been accepted. You don't have to specifically shadow to see the day-to-day of a clinic and make a mature decision. Shadowing is the best type of clinical experience IF you are lucky to find it, but it definitely ISN'T a necessity. Clinical experience is, and shadowing is just one type of experience.

Definitely this. I had zero hours of actual "shadowing," though I had a ton of clinical experience in various settings.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Hey.. to each their own... Personally, I believe a variety of shadowing experiences with a variety of physicians is a surer way to getting an acceptance as compared to simply not shadowing.

Of course n=1 with both of us, but I think that if you ask SDN as a whole you will see that most successful applicants do have around the 100 hour mark for shadowing.

that's fine if you believe that, but you don't have to claim that "shadowing IS necessary," when it isn't. That's just spreading misinformation. Of course shadowing helps, but it's not a requirement.

 

[sudo]

This is what causes SDN posters to become neurotic. I don't mean to put you down, sudo. But your number is presented as some sort of de facto requirement for admissions.

150 hours is really quite a lot.

Also, I think it really depends on job experience you've had. If you've spent a lot of time ED scribing, that's somewhat of a more active version of shadowing, and I'd imagine that really counts for a lot.

No offense taken! 150 just seems to be the number I would shoot for as a premed. By no means is it a requirement.

I try not to cause any neuroticism, honestly.

Sent from my SPH-L720

 

[jaybird117]

Whoa, what? 150??? I've got like...1/3 that haha. A stupid amount of hours in all my other extracurriculars, though.

 

[pathologyDO]

This would have been a good poll thread...

 

[Arbor Vitae]

This would have been a good poll thread...

Why? The answer isn't opinion, it's fact. Shadowing is not absolutely necessary.

 

[pathologyDO]

Why? The answer isn't opinion, it's fact. Shadowing is not absolutely necessary.

I'm just curious of the numbers is all. But hey, you're right though, given your story there is a caveat where if you do other clinical experiences then you can get away with no shadowing. As a previous poster has stated, however, some schools do require/recommend a minimum amount of shadowing hours. Obviously for those schools it is better to get those shadowing hours.

A quick google search brought up this page for UW Medicine, which states that:

"The UW School of Medicine recommends that applicants shadow for at least 40 hours in the U.S. The 40 hours do not have to be with one physician or all in one week. In fact, shadowing multiple physicians over several months to years will give applicants an opportunity to explore not only different medical fields, but also to compare different practice settings and different physician styles."

http://www.uwmedicine.org/education/md-program/admissions/applicants/pages/shadow.aspx

Another google search finds that for the University of Utah SOM:

"The minimum requirement is 8 hours shadowing a physician(s).
The average applicant spends 24 hours with a physician(s)."

http://medicine.utah.edu/admissions/criteria/

So we can see that with the school in Utah, it IS necessary to shadow a physician, albeit a lower amount than 100 hours.

 

[slopes23]

My premed advisor, at a top 50 school, said that above all shadowing is the number 1! necessary EC. Since most people go for mid tier and below medical schools, it is way more important than research. He said that at least 100 hours by 2-3 different doctors. He said at the medical school associated with our undergrad, cough cough its in Florida, that shadowing is the first EC they look at, then volunteer and research. Just my two cents.

Shadow early and a lot.

Oh Dr. Gaines.....

 

[gocanes1990]

Oh Dr. Gaines.....

Busted? Lol

 

[blockboster55]

What if you have work in hospitals and clinic for about 3 years as medical interpraters, Is shadowing still necessary? other the volunteering.

 

[gocanes1990]

What if you have work in hospitals and clinic for about 3 years as medical interpraters, Is shadowing still necessary? other the volunteering.

Do you work under/with doctors?

 

[Blaughable]

I personally think shadowing is a must, and tremendously helps in showing that you know what a physician does, you love it, and you can see yourself doing the same. I had +200 hours in a variety of places (EM, neurosurg, plastics, CT surg, ICU) and think that really helped me stand out. It gives you great experiences to draw on for your PS and during your interview.

Edit: plus, it's really fun

 

[niblet]

Shadowing, aside from other forms of clinical experience, is necessary. Most adcoms that I've met with suggest 150hrs of "shadowing".

Shadowing IS necessary.

My premed advisor, at a top 50 school, said that above all shadowing is the number 1! necessary EC.

Gulp.

I haven't done any shadowing (had one opportunity in the works once but was never e-mailed back), and now I'm a little worried, if all this is true. Would shadowing during the application season be meaningless? I hope I don't have to reapply next year, the only thing I can see myself getting rejected everywhere for would be a lack of clinical experience and this thread is giving credence to those fears.

 

[sudo]

I personally think shadowing is a must, and tremendously helps in showing that you know what a physician does, you love it, and you can see yourself doing the same. I had +200 hours in a variety of places (EM, neurosurg, plastics, CT surg, ICU) and think that really helped me stand out. It gives you great experiences to draw on for your PS and during your interview.

And it's helped me tremendously on my secondaries.

Sent from my SPH-L720

 

[gocanes1990]

I also think it depends where you are applying, if you are applying to top schools which are heavy research power houses, research may be the best. But if you are applying to more mid to low tiers, that focus on primary care, then clinical and shadowing is big.

 

[gocanes1990]

Gulp.

I haven't done any shadowing (had one opportunity in the works once but was never e-mailed back), and now I'm a little worried, if all this is true. Would shadowing during the application season be meaningless? I hope I don't have to reapply next year, the only thing I can see myself getting rejected everywhere for would be a lack of clinical experience and this thread is giving credence to those fears.

Doesn't hurt to shadow and sent updates, especially if you are missing it now

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Yes people, of course it helps, but that wasn't what was asked in this thread. Do you have to shadow? no Do you need clinical experience? yes Somebody listed one school that requires it, but other than that I don't know of any schools that absolutely require shadowing. One of the schools listed above only recommends 40 hours of shadowing. The fact of the matter is most people won't be able to find somebody to shadow due to liabilities. Go walk into 10 clinics and ask to shadow the doctor. Let me know how many actually will let you. And don't let the pre-med advisor think for you.

 

[Blaughable]

Yes people, of course it helps, but that wasn't what was asked in this thread. Do you have to shadow? no Do you need clinical experience? yes Somebody listed one school that requires it, but other than that I don't know of any schools that absolutely require shadowing. One of the schools listed above only recommends 40 hours of shadowing. The fact of the matter is most people won't be able to find somebody to shadow due to liabilities. Go walk into 10 clinics and ask to shadow the doctor. Let me know how many actually will let you.

Okay so it's not a stated requirement (spare the exceptions). Seems we covered that already, can we not continue to discuss? Or do we close the thread at "No"

 

[QuantumQuark]

Do what you can with shadowing but I've had many friends who have shadowed 0-40 hours with about 30 hrs avg I'd say. You can also sell your clinical volunteering as shadowing if you do it right by saying you observed doctors, etc etc.

If University of Utah says that the average amount of hrs that an applicant has is 24 then obviously most people aren't getting 150 . Especially since the people that apply to the University of Utah know that the school requires shadowing.

 

[pathologyDO]

Shadowing may be required at some schools, provides good insight into the daily life of a physician, can be a good source of stories for personal statements or even interview questions, and it is one very good way to secure a physician LOR.

Do or die? no. Highly recommended? yes.

Sometimes your pre-med advisor or career center can help you find physicians to shadow. Fellow pre-meders will sometimes have parents or relatives that are physicians. There are certainly a lot of ways to get in and shadow a physician, but not everybody can. If you cannot, do as much clinical work that involves being near a physician as you can to get a good feel for what they're doing.

 

[Blaughable]

Shadowing may be required at some schools, provides good insight into the daily life of a physician, can be a good source of stories for personal statements or even interview questions, and it is one very good way to secure a physician LOR.

Do or die? no. Highly recommended? yes.

Ah, extremely good point, the coveted physician LOR. How else can a physician write a great LOR unless you've been with them for a while. I'm not sure if there are any past/present ad com members that can shed light on how much more or less weight an MD/DO LoR carries.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Shadowing may be required at some schools, provides good insight into the daily life of a physician, can be a good source of stories for personal statements or even interview questions, and it is one very good way to secure a physician LOR.

Do or die? no. Highly recommended? yes.

Sometimes your pre-med advisor or career center can help you find physicians to shadow. Fellow pre-meders will sometimes have parents or relatives that are physicians. There are certainly a lot of ways to get in and shadow a physician, but not everybody can. If you cannot, do as much clinical work with a physician as you can to get a good feel for what they're doing.

this. What other schools require shadowing is the real question here? Utah is a fairly regional school so most of us wouldn't have a chance there. And both Utah and Wisconsin stated less than 50 hours shadowing. If you had 50 hours of shadowing you probably wouldn't even need any other clinical experience. An hour of shadowing is probably worth 4 of volunteering.

 

[gocanes1990]

Ah, extremely good point, the coveted physician LOR. How else can a physician write a great LOR unless you've been with them for a while. I'm not sure if there are any past/present ad com members that can shed light on how much more or less weight an MD/DO LoR carries.

Great moment for LizzyM to chime in lol

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Great moment for LizzyM to chime in lol

her signature says it all

 

[Radon XP]

I don't know if I imagined this, but I remember LizzyM saying that physician LORs weren't that helpful unless from a physician with whom the applicant has had a regular/productive relationship.

 

[gocanes1990]

I don't know if I imagined this, but I remember LizzyM saying that physician LORs weren't that helpful unless from a physician with whom the applicant has had a regular/productive relationship.

Couldn't you say the same about a professor or PI?

 

[Radon XP]

Couldn't you say the same about a professor or PI?

Yes, I suppose you could, but you'd have an even more shallow relationship with most of the physicians that you shadow assuming you shadowed them for a few weekends. With the professor or PI, you engaged in productive work and received feedback as a member of the team/pupil.

 

[TheBossDoctor]

Shadowing, aside from other forms of clinical experience, is necessary. Most adcoms that I've met with suggest 150hrs of "shadowing". YMMV but I'd recommend some actual shadowing...that way you can also see what different specialities do.

Sent from my SPH-L720

I've never understood that argument. You don't shadow to learn about the specialties. That's what MS-3 and 4 are for. Even if you spend many hours shadowing a specialty, it's hard to actually understand what it entails with the limited knowledge we have.

The main thing to get out of shadowing now is to see how the doctors interact with patients and how they think to come up with a diagnosis. Which can honestly be done after 20-30 hours of shadowing. I've shadowed for 80 hours and I didn't really learn much more after the first 40 hours.

 

[TheBossDoctor]

And as far as the importance of shadowing, I've heard both sides. Many forums, articles, and advisors talk as if it's mandatory for your application. On the other hand, through my shadowing experiences, I've met many medical students doing their rotations, and a good number of them said that they didn't shadow a single hour during undergrad. And this is UCLA medical school.

 

[olecranon4]

0 hours of shadowing, I got in. Lots of clinical experience otherwise though. You decide =)

 

[RedICEE]

For most pre-med students shadowing will be one of their least demanding activities on their application. If the opportunity is there for you to do it, you should - it's easy points.

 

[SunsFun]

I am not sure if people are just trolling here or seriously believe shadowing is one of the most useful things you can do. I mean you just there, watching. It gets pretty repetitive after the first hour, since all you can do is observe. How useful can you really be? You really wanna know what it is really like to be a doctor, watch a documentary. Wanna know what different specialties do? Read job description and use your imagination and google.

Honestly, shadowing did not do much for me. I had fairly good and pretty accurate idea as to what to expect by simply going to a doctor or doing other medicine-related stuff.

 

[Radon XP]

I am not sure if people are just trolling here or seriously believe shadowing is one of the most useful things you can do. I mean you just there, watching. It gets pretty repetitive after the first hour, since all you can do is observe. How useful can you really be? You really wanna know what it is really like to be a doctor, watch a documentary. Wanna know what different specialties do? Read job description and use your imagination and google.

Honestly, shadowing did not do much for me. I had fairly good and pretty accurate idea as to what to expect by simply going to a doctor or doing other medicine-related stuff.

It's not so much that it's "useful", just important for your app (or at least, some sort of clinical exposure)

 

[preMedDonut]

I am not sure if people are just trolling here or seriously believe shadowing is one of the most useful things you can do. I mean you just there, watching. It gets pretty repetitive after the first hour, since all you can do is observe. How useful can you really be? You really wanna know what it is really like to be a doctor, watch a documentary. Wanna know what different specialties do? Read job description and use your imagination and google.

Honestly, shadowing did not do much for me. I had fairly good and pretty accurate idea as to what to expect by simply going to a doctor or doing other medicine-related stuff.

I think shadowing depends on the doctor though, considering it has helped me tons in clinical experience. I got lucky though, I do EKGs, HPIs, BP checks and work the clinic. Some days I follow him watching surgeries and other days I do clinical work. It's been an amazing experience and thus solidified what I want to do.

For everyone else, shadowing can vary vastly. I would have at least some good biology/physiology background before since it has helped me in understanding what is going on and what certain medications do.

 

[Lamel]

You guys should find a gig as a medical assistant or tech or something and double dip, claiming that the hours you worked with the doctor are shadowing. I wouldn't see why it wouldn't count.

 

[Narmerguy]

I have no formal shadowing so I guess we'll see what happens.

 

[muddyduck7]

lol if Narmerguy doesn't get full rides to UChicago, WashU and Penn because of no formal shadowing...

 

[Chillbo Baggins]

Go walk into 10 clinics and ask to shadow the doctor. Let me know how many actually will let you.

This. I went to at least a dozen clinics around where I live, only one doc let me shadow.

I followed him for two half days, 8 hours total. After that he basically said, "This gives you a good idea, you not gonna get much out of following me longer."