Is there any truth to this about the Caribbeans...

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...Plenty of doctors have gone and been successful. Not as good as US students, obviously, but there have been many success stories.

Past tense -- plenty "have"... The world has changed. The door is swinging closed on offshore grads. Since 2005 the AAMC has encouraged US schools to expand to fill residency spots. Then the prematch, a big benefit for offshore grads, was more or less eliminated. Then scramble was turned into SOAP which put offshore grads at a further disadvantage -- you could no longer sneak in over the more qualified US grad just because your fax got through before the machine jammed. And now with the merging of Allo and Osteo looming, that will ensure Osteo gets included in the favored US grad category and is going to get considered before offshore grads. It's just a bad time to be going offshore. It might not have been when your uncle was training. But your window isn't his -- you care about matching 4-6 years from now, and I'd be really concerned that you'll be another overeducated uber driver, the way things are going.

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They're a great option if you want to be unemployed and deeply in debt.

I've been told by my uncle, who is a doctor, that SGU and Ross (again, ONLY these two schools in the Caribbeans) are a great option for me if the US plan doesn't work out. He says that if I go to these 2 schools, I'll have little to no problem matching into a residency program.

An American medical school with match rates like these would be closed by their accrediting bodies.
So that's 67 percent match for SGU and 55 for Ross. Based on this data, these schools are not nearly as bad as you guys are making them seem. (of course, these people may be reapplicants to the match)

And residency directors are well aware of these deficiencies! Hence the difficulty for Carib grads to match. I wish this entire thread could be stickied.
This is like the caribbean high-risk student personified.
-No demonstration of academic success at a high level, nor of standardized test success
-Intent to shortcut required steps (cut bait at 90 credits rather than graduate, haven't taken MCAT)
-Failure to meet basic requirements (committee letter) or even attend required meetings
-Family pressure rather than personal decision
 
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It's definitely not the end of the world to go to med school later -- some of us had whole careers before doing it. Theres a whole nontrad community on here. I think your uncle is radically out if touch if hes painting the Caribbean option as a "great" one. That was more true in a prior generation, up to the 80s and 90s, than it is today. These days the window is closing and match rates have been dropping as US grads are moving to fill greater and greater percentages of residency spots. He is right on one count though --if you are actually going to do the Caribbean route (which we all agree is a bad idea) do it sooner rather than later, as that door is swinging closed pretty fast.

With a 3.0 there is really no reason you can't spend some time bringing up your grades, maybe do well on the MCAT, and maybe go through an SMP and eventually get into a US school. It's a longer path but medicine is a lifelong marathon, not a sprint, and this path would be much much higher yield and you won't get closed out of all the non-primary care specialties. Or worse, forced into that dead end surgery prelim where you get exploited for a year and then discarded, unlicensed, to your life as an uber car driver for real doctors.


Fantastic answer, thank you. Do all DO schools replace the lower grade after retaking a class?

I think I could be able to raise my GPA to a 3.2 or even 3.4, best case scenario, if I work extremely hard.
 
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I don't see how the merger would make the DO match any easier--they can already apply for ACGME residencies. If anything, allopathic students will now have access to AOA spots in competitive specialties.

My understanding is the merger will bring all AOA residencies up to ACGME standards, leading to some serious revamping or closing of subpar ones. With MDs and DOs also on the same page, FMGs will find themselves less likely to secure positions.

More or less agree. This was a survival play by Osteo -- allo was closing in on the number of residency slots, osteo didn't have enough of it's own to support it's grads, and it soon became obvious that without getting acquired, take-over style, back into the fold it would be "game over". This way at least they are inside the castle of "US grads" looking out instead of stuck out with the offshore grads as "not US allo -SOL". But in time, the distinctions will erode and it will all essentially be one -- different degrees for now but all AAMC overseen and approved. Basically will end up like law where there are still a few lawyers out there who have the LLB degree instead of JD, mostly just a historic curiosity of no real significance.
 
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I don't see how the merger would make the DO match any easier--they can already apply for ACGME residencies. If anything, allopathic students will now have access to AOA spots in competitive specialties.
I feel with the merger, however, that it gets rid of some barriers that are in place with the separate merger systems. In my n=1 opinion, it really levels the playing field as far as discrimination with the letters next to your name and focuses more on P/F grades, step scores, involvement, any research performed at the university, etc.

My understanding is the merger will bring all AOA residencies up to ACGME standards, leading to some serious revamping or closing of subpar ones. With MDs and DOs also on the same page, FMGs will find themselves less likely to secure positions.
FMGs will honestly be completely phased out in the next 20-30 years with the increase in seat size and amount of new MD/DO schools springing up in the country. Also, I have a sense that PAs and NPs will be getting more autonomy that will make the respective fields that much more desirable among premeds.
 
There's a reason why the Carribbean schools are for profit.
 
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More or less agree. This was a survival play by Osteo -- allo was closing in on the number of residency slots, osteo didn't have enough of it's own to support it's grads, and it soon became obvious that without getting acquired, take-over style, back into the fold it would be "game over". This way at least they are inside the castle of "US grads" looking out instead of stuck out with the offshore grads as "not US allo -SOL". But in time, the distinctions will erode and it will all essentially be one -- different degrees for now but all AAMC overseen and approved. Basically will end up like law where there are still a few lawyers out there who have the LLB degree instead of JD, mostly just a historic curiosity of no real significance.
Isn't this a pretty big win for MD residency applicants? They now have access to low tier specialty spots (maybe ortho or something) that weren't open to them before (due to being an AOA program).
 
Isn't this a pretty big win for MD residency applicants? They now have access to low tier specialty spots (maybe ortho or something) that weren't open to them before (due to being an AOA program).

Sure, it will imho benefit the allo grads more early on, because on paper they often have a lot more in terms of research and the like, and so without the shelter of no competition for osteo residency spots a lot of these will get poached by the allo guys who would have come up just short for ortho, derm, etc. But eventually there will be a more homogeneous pool of US grads, with the degree letters becoming a lot less important than your USMLE scores, etc. AAMC certainly wouldn't do the deal without these spots being mutually opened as part of the merger. But as mentioned the merger is still a big win for osteo too because they could have very easilly been on the wrong side of the door when it slammed shut on the offshore crowd.
 
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It might mean something that everyone in this thread who has actually finished medical school and secured a residency spot seems to agree that going offshore is bad idea. I wonder what that might mean... hmm. hmm. hmm. Our collective experience probably shouldn't be listened to. Go with the uncle. UNCLE I SAY.
 
It might mean something that everyone in this thread who has actually finished medical school and secured a residency spot seems to agree that going offshore is bad idea. I wonder what that might mean... hmm. hmm. hmm. Our collective experience probably shouldn't be listened to. Go with the uncle. UNCLE I SAY.

It's the tyranny of the majority holding down those hard workers that just want to help people
 
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TYRANTS. I shake my scalpel at thee!
 
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First of all, when I say Caribbean schools I mean ONLY SGU and Ross. Only these two.

I know that with my grades so far (I haven't taken the MCAT yet), getting into a US MD program will be difficult. I am a junior right now, with a 3.03 GPA, and I know that whatever I do senior year won't even count towards my AMCAS. Would you suggest a apply after my senior year, when I'll have time/credits to raise my GPA?

Also, DO programs are a a maybe, depending on my MCAT score.

I've been told by my uncle, who is a doctor, that SGU and Ross (again, ONLY these two schools in the Caribbeans) are a great option for me if the US plan doesn't work out. He says that if I go to these 2 schools, I'll have little to no problem matching into a residency program. I can't find any concrete data to support this, but I know that Ross University had more students match into US residencies than any other Medical school. But I can't find percentages.

So without further ado, is there any truth to this?

I'm certain that everyone else has already told you this, but DO schools are far better choices than the Caribbean schools. Take the time you need to make an informed decision, and then apply to targeted MD and DO schools that are likely to take people with your stats. Oh, and make sure you kill the MCAT.
 
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Medical school and residency require extremely hard work to succeed. If you can't muster that degree of effort now, what makes you think you'll be able to magically flip a switch and produce such effort later?

When one's back is against the wall, anything is possible.
 
Neither is giving up.

If this was a likert scale, you would score 'very likely' on a how likely would you say that you're daft question.

No one is asking you to give up. Just freaking spend time getting your application in order. Or don't. We don't really care about your application. So if you want to waste your money and take a chance with a 30-40% application chance, then go for it. I spent a few years after college getting my app together, retook MCAT etc and I don't regret it. It's funny how many people seem to want to take all sorts of shortcuts but seem to want the best possible outcome.
 
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Neither is giving up.

Actually it is. First, not every person should try to become a doctor. Second, not every person would do well as a doctor. A significant number of both of those groups apply to medical school every year. The lucky ones do NOT get in and go do something else, which is likely what they should have done from the start. The unlucky ones get into medical school and either do poorly in school or realize very quickly that they aren't a good fit for medicine and become very unhappy, very quickly.

Knowing when to give up on something is an incredibly important skill to develop, no matter what you do in life. Fruitless endeavors and getting fixated on things to the point where you aren't willing to listen to logic and reasoning are how one digs oneself into a much much deeper hole. A good 10-15% of pre-meds that come to me for advice/help with admissions are told that they need to evaluate for themselves whether or not medicine is really the right pathway for them. Not surprisingly, almost all have some sort of parental issue, up to and including parents sending their kids to talk to me.
 
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Here's another one I wish to sticky!!!

Actually it is. First, not every person should try to become a doctor. Second, not every person would do well as a doctor. A significant number of both of those groups apply to medical school every year. The lucky ones do NOT get in and go do something else, which is likely what they should have done from the start. The unlucky ones get into medical school and either do poorly in school or realize very quickly that they aren't a good fit for medicine and become very unhappy, very quickly.

Knowing when to give up on something is an incredibly important skill to develop, no matter what you do in life. Fruitless endeavors and getting fixated on things to the point where you aren't willing to listen to logic and reasoning are how one digs oneself into a much much deeper hole. A good 10-15% of pre-meds that come to me for advice/help with admissions are told that they need to evaluate for themselves whether or not medicine is really the right pathway for them. Not surprisingly, almost all have some sort of parental issue, up to and including parents sending their kids to talk to me.
 
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Actually it is. First, not every person should try to become a doctor. Second, not every person would do well as a doctor. A significant number of both of those groups apply to medical school every year. The lucky ones do NOT get in and go do something else, which is likely what they should have done from the start. The unlucky ones get into medical school and either do poorly in school or realize very quickly that they aren't a good fit for medicine and become very unhappy, very quickly.

Knowing when to give up on something is an incredibly important skill to develop, no matter what you do in life. Fruitless endeavors and getting fixated on things to the point where you aren't willing to listen to logic and reasoning are how one digs oneself into a much much deeper hole. A good 10-15% of pre-meds that come to me for advice/help with admissions are told that they need to evaluate for themselves whether or not medicine is really the right pathway for them. Not surprisingly, almost all have some sort of parental issue, up to and including parents sending their kids to talk to me.

what if someone really wants to be a doctor, and would make good doctor, but for whatever reason was not given the chance by a US school?

My Cousin was one such person. she got rejected by all the medical schools she applied to because of her low stats (3.0 GPA, 20 MCAT), but ended up getting into a pod school and is practicing right now. She was rejected twice. Her patients love her and she is making a ton of money. Would you have recommended someone like her "just give up"?
 
what if someone really wants to be a doctor, and would make good doctor, but for whatever reason was not given the chance by a US school?

My Cousin was one such person. she got rejected by all the medical schools she applied to because of her low stats (3.0 GPA, 20 MCAT), but ended up getting into a pod school and is practicing right now. She was rejected twice. Her patients love her and she is making a ton of money. Would you have recommended someone like her "just give up"?

She did. She's a pod, not a physician.
 
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what if someone really wants to be a doctor, and would make good doctor, but for whatever reason was not given the chance by a US school?

My Cousin was one such person. she got rejected by all the medical schools she applied to because of her low stats (3.0 GPA, 20 MCAT), but ended up getting into a pod school and is practicing right now. She was rejected twice. Her patients love her and she is making a ton of money. Would you have recommended someone like her "just give up"?

I am 12 and what is this
 
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what if someone really wants to be a doctor, and would make good doctor, but for whatever reason was not given the chance by a US school?

Because at some point you need to grow up.

Believe it or not med schools are not this capricious conglomerate of meanies who just want to crush your precious precious dreams.

They are faced with a situation where on the whole there are twice as many applicants as there are spots...and on the school level there are greater than ten times as many applicants as there are spots.

When med schools reject someone with a 3.0 and a 20...it's not a value judgment. It's a pragmatic one. They have to make the tough choice.

So when that happens, you can throw good money after bad and go to the Caribbean despite all the evidence pointing towards it being a terrible decision.

But the smart thing? The adult thing? It isn't to act like a petulant child who is hell-bent on this "I'll show those meanies! I'm MEANT to be a doctor!!" Pipe dream. It's to find something else to do with your life.

The alternative is to flush 6 figures and 4-10 years down the toilet.

So yes, sometimes the best advice is to be realistic and find something else in life that can make you happy.
 
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But they learn almost the exact same things.
I think you've just proven the point that others were trying to make. Pod school is significantly easier to get into than medical school, and can be just as rewarding of an alternative profession. Clearly "giving up" worked out well for her.
 
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Before you get to be a good doctor, you have to be a good medical student. The app process is about looking for people who will be both, NOT one.

what if someone really wants to be a doctor, and would make good doctor, but for whatever reason was not given the chance by a US school?
 
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Neither is giving up.
Learn about the art of the pivot, it's just as important in this type of situation as in a business situation. You don't give up all together, but you do give up on a doomed and stupid idea. You figure out something that you actually have a fair chance at success with and put your energy in that. Just saying you're not going to give up and grasping at extremely drastic options with very low success rates is just being completely stupid and childish.
 
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But they learn almost the exact same things.

No. There is definitely some overlap early on. But I know a couple of people who made the jump from podiatry to medical school and they would definitely dispute your assertion.

It's fine that your cousin found joy in a career in podiatry. But lets not act like laypeople and confuse everyone we see wearing a white coat.
 
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I am 12 and what is this

.........What? I must be 12, because that flew by me. No clue what you are implying.

Because at some point you need to grow up.

Believe it or not med schools are not this capricious conglomerate of meanies who just want to crush your precious precious dreams.

They are faced with a situation where on the whole there are twice as many applicants as there are spots...and on the school level there are greater than ten times as many applicants as there are spots.

When med schools reject someone with a 3.0 and a 20...it's not a value judgment. It's a pragmatic one. They have to make the tough choice.

So when that happens, you can throw good money after bad and go to the Caribbean despite all the evidence pointing towards it being a terrible decision.

But the smart thing? The adult thing? It isn't to act like a petulant child who is hell-bent on this "I'll show those meanies! I'm MEANT to be a doctor!!" Pipe dream. It's to find something else to do with your life.

The alternative is to flush 6 figures and 4-10 years down the toilet.

So yes, sometimes the best advice is to be realistic and find something else in life that can make you happy.

Agreed, but to a point. Obviously it is wise to not accept someone who cannot handle the academic rigor of the coursework, but people get in with lower stats. People get in after a 3rd try. People get in after retaking classes. So when is the correct time to call quits?

I DO agree that it is foolish to ship away to the Islands. I would go to Pod school or optometry school first before stepping foot in those places. 6 figs of debt with no guarantee of coming back is crazy stupid/risky.

I think you've just proven the point that others were trying to make. Pod school is significantly easier to get into than medical school, and can be just as rewarding of an alternative profession. Clearly "giving up" worked out well for her.

But she is still a "Doctor" in the clinical sense. Is Osteopathic Medicine an alternative? Is that "giving up" on medicine? That is "easier" to get into than MD school, so by that sense, people who go to DO school "give up" on medical school. Granted, Pods focus on feet, but I would think they are still physicians.

Is Dental School and alternative? Some are even harder to get into than MD schools!

No. There is definitely some overlap early on. But I know a couple of people who made the jump from podiatry to medical school and they would definitely dispute your assertion.

It's fine that your cousin found joy in a career in podiatry. But lets not act like laypeople and confuse everyone we see wearing a white coat.

But they are still technically doctors (DPM) and the Des Monies Pod school takes the same classes with the DO school students. They are clinically "Doctors". They prescribe medication, do surgery, take out student loans- they are essentially orthopedic surgeons that specialized in the feet.
 
.........What? I must be 12, because that flew by me. No clue what you are implying.



Agreed, but to a point. Obviously it is wise to not accept someone who cannot handle the academic rigor of the coursework, but people get in with lower stats. People get in after a 3rd try. People get in after retaking classes. So when is the correct time to call quits?

I DO agree that it is foolish to ship away to the Islands. I would go to Pod school or optometry school first before stepping foot in those places. 6 figs of debt with no guarantee of coming back is crazy stupid/risky.



But she is still a "Doctor" in the clinical sense. Is Osteopathic Medicine an alternative? Is that "giving up" on medicine? That is "easier" to get into than MD school, so by that sense, people who go to DO school "give up" on medical school. Granted, Pods focus on feet, but I would think they are still physicians.

Is Dental School and alternative? Some are even harder to get into than MD schools!



But they are still technically doctors (DPM) and the Des Monies Pod school takes the same classes with the DO school students. They are clinically "Doctors". They prescribe medication, do surgery, take out student loans- they are essentially orthopedic surgeons that specialized in the feet.
Just thought I'd quote that.


:corny:
 
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.........What? I must be 12, because that flew by me. No clue what you are implying.



Agreed, but to a point. Obviously it is wise to not accept someone who cannot handle the academic rigor of the coursework, but people get in with lower stats. People get in after a 3rd try. People get in after retaking classes. So when is the correct time to call quits?

I DO agree that it is foolish to ship away to the Islands. I would go to Pod school or optometry school first before stepping foot in those places. 6 figs of debt with no guarantee of coming back is crazy stupid/risky.



But she is still a "Doctor" in the clinical sense. Is Osteopathic Medicine an alternative? Is that "giving up" on medicine? That is "easier" to get into than MD school, so by that sense, people who go to DO school "give up" on medical school. Granted, Pods focus on feet, but I would think they are still physicians.

Is Dental School and alternative? Some are even harder to get into than MD schools!



But they are still technically doctors (DPM) and the Des Monies Pod school takes the same classes with the DO school students. They are clinically "Doctors". They prescribe medication, do surgery, take out student loans- they are essentially orthopedic surgeons that specialized in the feet.

Anyone can call themselves a doctor. But the public's idea of a doctor isn't someone who plays around with their feet. Their education is not equivalent and they are certainly not orthopedic surgeons of the feet. What happened to taking pride in your own work? Why does everyone want to copy
 
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what if someone really wants to be a doctor, and would make good doctor, but for whatever reason was not given the chance by a US school?

My Cousin was one such person. she got rejected by all the medical schools she applied to because of her low stats (3.0 GPA, 20 MCAT), but ended up getting into a pod school and is practicing right now. She was rejected twice. Her patients love her and she is making a ton of money. Would you have recommended someone like her "just give up"?

First, podiatry is not the same thing as a physician. I'm not sure how you think "patients love her" and "she makes tons of money" qualifies you as a physician, but okay.

Second, yes, I would absolutely tell her to give up trying to become a medical physician. Every season I read applications, first medical school, now residency. We have dozens of applicants for our spots, someone with a 3.0/20 is a risk for any medical school in the United States. I'm glad that your cousin found something besides becoming a physician that they are happy with and making money at. She is lucky that the medical schools rejected her and she didn't waste time, money and energy on something that was likely not to work out. If they had applied to podiatry earlier, rather than wasting their time with medical applications, they could have gotten there sooner and without the headache and with less expense.

Third, if you are going to argue with people, you should learn about what you are arguing about. Taking a few pre-clinical classes along side people has nothing to do with training physicians. I have 5 years of training in medicine that they do not have, and I still have another 4 before I will be able to practice independently. To say that our education is equivalent would be insulting, except that you clearly know nothing about medical education in the United States, so it is understandable. You don't know anything about MD schools, DO schools, podiatry schools or education in this country. You also think that the word 'cousin' should be capitalized.
 
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I don't see how the merger would make the DO match any easier--they can already apply for ACGME residencies. If anything, allopathic students will now have access to AOA spots in competitive specialties.


Sure it will. If my ideal rank list was

1. AOA
2. ACGME
3. AOA
4. ACGME
5. AOA
etc
...then there is a large possibility that I will never get a chance at my ACGME spots if I choose and ultimately match in the AOA match. In a unified match, I no longer have to decide whether to do the AOA match or not in order to get a swing at ACGME spots.
 
But she is still a "Doctor" in the clinical sense. Is Osteopathic Medicine an alternative? Is that "giving up" on medicine? That is "easier" to get into than MD school, so by that sense, people who go to DO school "give up" on medical school. Granted, Pods focus on feet, but I would think they are still physicians.

Is Dental School and alternative? Some are even harder to get into than MD schools!



But they are still technically doctors (DPM) and the Des Monies Pod school takes the same classes with the DO school students. They are clinically "Doctors". They prescribe medication, do surgery, take out student loans- they are essentially orthopedic surgeons that specialized in the feet.
DOs have an unrestricted license to practice medicine and can be found in all fields of medicine.

Podiatry practices medicine on feet only (well, ankles and toes too...).

I don't care if you call me Mr. or even Joe (since that's my name). I care that I get to practice medicine. If being called "doctor" is the only thing you care about, then sure, go to dental school or go to podiatry school. If you want to practice medicine, then go to medical school (osteopathic or allopathic).
 
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I think that after three times, if one fails to accomplish one's goals, then it's time to do something else. If one fails to learn a lesson, it's even more important to do something else. Changing careers is not failing; it's being practical. I have no patience with the "I'm going to keep on applying until I'm 60" mindset. it's a sign of immaturity, not determination.

Persistence is a not a substitute for competence when the latter is lacking, either.

Agreed, but to a point. Obviously it is wise to not accept someone who cannot handle the academic rigor of the coursework, but people get in with lower stats. People get in after a 3rd try. People get in after retaking classes. So when is the correct time to call quits?
 
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First, podiatry is not the same thing as a physician. I'm not sure how you think "patients love her" and "she makes tons of money" qualifies you as a physician, but okay.

Second, yes, I would absolutely tell her to give up trying to become a medical physician. Every season I read applications, first medical school, now residency. We have dozens of applicants for our spots, someone with a 3.0/20 is a risk for any medical school in the United States. I'm glad that your cousin found something besides becoming a physician that they are happy with and making money at. She is lucky that the medical schools rejected her and she didn't waste time, money and energy on something that was likely not to work out. If they had applied to podiatry earlier, rather than wasting their time with medical applications, they could have gotten there sooner and without the headache and with less expense.

Third, if you are going to argue with people, you should learn about what you are arguing about. Taking a few pre-clinical classes along side people has nothing to do with training physicians. I have 5 years of training in medicine that they do not have, and I still have another 4 before I will be able to practice independently. To say that our education is equivalent would be insulting, except that you clearly know nothing about medical education in the United States, so it is understandable. You don't know anything about MD schools, DO schools, podiatry schools or education in this country. You also think that the word 'cousin' should be capitalized.

Addressing each point:

1) Podiatrists doctors of the feet. Going along that same sense, wouldn't a doctor of the hands be a physician as well? What about of the ears? I was under the assumption that any medical specialty was by definition, a physician.

2) Okay, so where is the cut off GPA and MCAT wise where it would not be wise to admit someone into a program? There are people who get into medical school with a 3.2.....people who get into schools with 24 MCAT. A select few get in with a combo of both (although this is rare). When is it time to throw in the towel?

3) Wouldn't it be just 3 years of extra training, minus a few classes in the preclinical years? I never said that the education was equivalent, just similar in the first couple years.
 
Addressing each point:

1) Podiatrists doctors of the feet. Going along that same sense, wouldn't a doctor of the hands be a physician as well? What about of the ears? I was under the assumption that any medical specialty was by definition, a physician.

2) Okay, so where is the cut off GPA and MCAT wise where it would not be wise to admit someone into a program? There are people who get into medical school with a 3.2.....people who get into schools with 24 MCAT. A select few get in with a combo of both (although this is rare). When is it time to throw in the towel?

3) Wouldn't it be just 3 years of extra training, minus a few classes in the preclinical years? I never said that the education was equivalent, just similar in the first couple years.


1. Podiatry is not, in the strictest sense, a medical specialty. Podiatrists do not go to medical school and then complete a medical specialty. Ophthalmologists? Medical school -> residency. Otolaryngologists (ears/nose/throat specialists)? Medical school ->residency.

2. There is no "cut off" in th strictest sense. Medical schools can admit anyone they want. However when the applicant pool is twice the number of seats AFTER the MCAT and pre-med weed out, they end up taking the cream of the cream of the crop. Just because there's a 2.6 and 20 doesn't mean you will be another 2.6 and 20.

3. It's implied. much the same way a NP can prescribe metformin in some states, and therefore be "equal" to a physician in some people's minds.
 
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3. It's implied. much the same way a NP can prescribe metformin in some states, and therefore be "equal" to a physician in some people's minds.

There was a movement (and i think there still is) of NPs wanting to be called "Doctor" because programs are switching to a Doctor of Nurse Practitioner now. Coming from medical school and having gone through all the training, what are your thoughts on that?
 
There was a movement (and i think there still is) of NPs wanting to be called "Doctor" because programs are switching to a Doctor of Nurse Practitioner now. Coming from medical school and having gone through all the training, what are your thoughts on that?

Whyyyyyy?

Have you been a troll for all 1100 posts, or did you just start?
 
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Whyyyyyy?

Have you been a troll for all 1100 posts, or did you just start?

This is no troll my friend, there was push to do this. There was an old clip from a segment on CNN discussing this, but I can't find it on youtube at the moment

Edit: and I think in a number of states, these DNP can have their own practices as long as they have physician correspondence.
 
Someone make it stop...
 
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Addressing each point:

1) Podiatrists doctors of the feet. Going along that same sense, wouldn't a doctor of the hands be a physician as well? What about of the ears? I was under the assumption that any medical specialty was by definition, a physician.

2) Okay, so where is the cut off GPA and MCAT wise where it would not be wise to admit someone into a program? There are people who get into medical school with a 3.2.....people who get into schools with 24 MCAT. A select few get in with a combo of both (although this is rare). When is it time to throw in the towel?

3) Wouldn't it be just 3 years of extra training, minus a few classes in the preclinical years? I never said that the education was equivalent, just similar in the first couple years.

(1) Um no. You are missing the point. In medicine you become a doctor and then choose to specialize. But you are still a doctor, can still treat the whole human being. For instance your orthopedist is a doctor. He might specialize in "foot and ankle" by doing an additional Fellowship after his 5-6 years of residency. He may in so doing sometimes compete with podiatrists for surgical patients. But he is far better trained, and would be allowed to manage a patients other problems (diabetes, hypertension, etc) while under his care. And if he gets tired of feet he can do another fellowship and move to hands or other joints. The podiatrist really has a line he can't cross at the ankle. So it's a very limited role. Sort of like a dentist, who doesn't get to work on anything outside of the mouth. A hand specialist is an orthopedist with additional training in hands. This is something he does after residency, so he's a very extensively trained physician and surgeon as his baseline. Podiatrists are foot doctors, without additional scope or training. They serve an important role because frankly most doctors aren't that interested in feet, and more than happy to share the wealth in terms of corns and nail bed fungus. Where the turf wars happen is surgery, and the number of orthopods who do foot and ankle isn't that huge (nor is the percentage of pods who spend most of their time in the OR). In terms if training, your orthopod has a lot more, and can address ailments above the ankle too, so if someone asks you who to see, I think that's the right approach. I'm not trying to attack podiatry and it's annoying and trollish that you are trying to steer this conversation down this road. But no, your cousin didn't go to med school and isn't a medical doctor. He's/she's a podiatrist and carries the limits in scope and training that degree carries. They aren't orthopedists who specialize in the feet. They have the feet part but not the orthopedic residency part. (sort of like your dentist isn't a maxilofacial surgeon who chose to focus on teeth). To specialize you need to have started general. They didn't. The orthopedist who does a Foot and ankle fellowship has specialized from the more general orthopedic training. He can always go back and practice under that umbrella, and do more. The podiatrist started and ended at feet -- no specialization just very limited scope.

(2) you throw in the towel, as mentioned above, when you have made multiple efforts to improve things and it's just not going to happen. No shme in that - you gave it your shot. Not everyone can or should become a doctor. Or if you decide you'd be just as happy in podiatry or other health related fields that allow you to do some of the things you want out of a Career. If you just want to wear a white coat and see patients there are several options. If you just want to call yourself "doctor" there are several options. if you want to do surgery in some respects, and dont really care what body part, something like podiatry might work for you. But let's not delude ourself that it's all the same role or career. It isn't. I'm sure some people love these paths and others consider them close enough to being a medical doctor. If you get all you want out of it in terms of practice and prestige, more power to you. But this isn't playing horseshoes -- close enough isn't really the same as hitting your target.

(3) you actually did say "they learn almost the exact same thing". Which is false. They get some overlap with early med school. So do dentists, PAs. Probably nurses too. Some overlap is a far cry from "almost exactly the same thing" or "minus a few classes". You are just wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Stop it already. Your cousin didn't go to med school and no she didn't do the med school equivalent. She went into another totally independent healthcare field that has their own schooling, training and scope. That's great. But saying your cousin prescribes meds or does bunionectomies in the OR really doesn't mean her level of training is on par with the guy who did an orthopedic residency and then a hand fellowship.

Your posts are either really trollish or really naive. I'm thinking the former, in which case impressive that you flew under the radar for so many posts before lowering the boom. if it's the latter, you need to do quite a lot more research into what doctors do and their schooling, training and scope, because medical doctors aren't podiatrist with a couple of extra classes under our belts.
 
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(1) Um no. You are missing the point. In medicine you become a doctor and then choose to specialize. But you are still a doctor, can still treat the whole human being. For instance your orthopedist is a doctor. He might specialize in "foot and ankle" by doing an additional Fellowship after his 5-6 years of residency. He may in so doing sometimes compete with podiatrists for surgical patients. But he is far better trained, and would be allowed to manage a patients other problems (diabetes, hypertension, etc) while under his care. And if he gets tired of feet he can do another fellowship and move to hands or other joints. The podiatrist really has a line he can't cross at the ankle. So it's a very limited role. Sort of like a dentist, who doesn't get to work on anything outside of the mouth. A hand specialist is an orthopedist with additional training in hands. This is something he does after residency, so he's a very extensively trained physician and surgeon as his baseline. Podiatrists are foot doctors, without additional scope or training. They serve an important role because frankly most doctors aren't that interested in feet, and more than happy to share the wealth in terms of corns and nail bed fungus. Where the turf wars happen is surgery, and the number of orthopods who do foot and ankle isn't that huge (nor is the percentage of pods who spend most of their time in the OR). In terms if training, your orthopod has a lot more, and can address ailments above the ankle too, so if someone asks you who to see, I think that's the right approach. I'm not trying to attack podiatry and it's annoying and trollish that you are trying to steer this conversation down this road. But no, your cousin didn't go to med school and isn't a medical doctor. He's/she's a podiatrist and carries the limits in scope and training that degree carries. They aren't orthopedists who specialize in the feet. They have the feet part but not the orthopedic residency part. (sort of like your dentist isn't a maxilofacial surgeon who chose to focus on teeth). To specialize you need to have started general. They didn't. The orthopedist who does a Foot and ankle fellowship has specialized from the more general orthopedic training. He can always go back and practice under that umbrella, and do more. The podiatrist started and ended at feet -- no specialization just very limited scope.

(2) you throw in the towel, as mentioned above, when you have made multiple efforts to improve things and it's just not going to happen. No shme in that - you gave it your shot. Not everyone can or should become a doctor. Or if you decide you'd be just as happy in podiatry or other health related fields that allow you to do some of the things you want out of a Career. If you just want to wear a white coat and see patients there are several options. If you just want to call yourself "doctor" there are several options. if you want to do surgery in some respects, and dont really care what body part, something like podiatry might work for you. But let's not delude ourself that it's all the same role or career. It isn't. I'm sure some people love these paths and others consider them close enough to being a medical doctor. If you get all you want out of it in terms of practice and prestige, more power to you. But this isn't playing horseshoes -- close enough isn't really the same as hitting your target.

(3) you actually did say "they learn almost the exact same thing". Which is false. They get some overlap with early med school. So do dentists, PAs. Probably nurses too. Some overlap is a far cry from "almost exactly the same thing" or "minus a few classes". You are just wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Stop it already. Your cousin didn't go to med school and no she didn't do the med school equivalent. She went into another totally independent healthcare field that has their own schooling, training and scope. That's great. But saying your cousin prescribes meds or does bunionectomies in the OR really doesn't mean her level of training is on par with the guy who did an orthopedic residency and then a hand fellowship.

Your posts are either really trollish or really naive. I'm thinking the former, in which case impressive that you flew under the radar for so many posts before lowering the boom. if it's the latter, you need to do quite a lot more research into what doctors do and their schooling, training and scope, because medical doctors aren't podiatrist with a couple of extra classes under our belts.

well argued counselor! Now the question is... anyone with small business expertise in New York who wants to give me free legal advice? :)
 
I shared many first year classes with dental students, so I must be a dentist. Which sucks, since generally speaking I hate teef.

Your logic is poor, but I'm putting that down to naivete rather than trolling. Years ago as a pre-med I probably believed things that would shock me now. A podiatrist is an alternate healthcare field, not a medical doctor. There are two degrees that are true physicians: MD and DO. That's it. This isn't a spectrum.

Your cousin sounds similar to a close childhood friend of mine, who has a thriving podiatry practice. Their stories illustrate our point: not everyone is cut out to be a physician, but can still enjoy career success (either in an alternate healthcare field or outside of healthcare). A 20 MCAT / 3.0 GPA getting into med school is almost unheard of without special circumstances; those are not borderline statistics. Your cousin made a very wise decision. The wrong decision would have been to repeatedly apply, year after year, and then still refusing to admit defeat, going to the Caribbean for four years of misery and ending up right where she started. Success stories have be adaptable.
 
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Sure it will. If my ideal rank list was

1. AOA
2. ACGME
3. AOA
4. ACGME
5. AOA
etc
...then there is a large possibility that I will never get a chance at my ACGME spots if I choose and ultimately match in the AOA match. In a unified match, I no longer have to decide whether to do the AOA match or not in order to get a swing at ACGME spots.

But your list would never look like that.
 
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