Is your area saturated?

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I'll do it. I will entitle the article:

"Drugs will lead you down a path of disappointment, unemployment, and, ultimately, disaster: a few thoughts on the coming epidemic of misery for pharmacists in the United States; or, How I learned to stop worrying about my future financial ruin by getting high on Xanax."

The title is to long. No one has the attention span for that any more. Shorten it to "How I learned to stop worrying about my future by getting high on Xanax." This seems to be half of the people who come to my pharmacies plan anyway. Write a book about it and you would be hailed as a genius and make millions.

Members don't see this ad.
 
The title is to long. No one has the attention span for that any more. Shorten it to "How I learned to stop worrying about my future by getting high on Xanax." This seems to be half of the people who come to my pharmacies plan anyway. Write a book about it and you would be hailed as a genius and make millions.

Everyone knows that you never make the real money doing your job, you get the money by making the book about doing your job.

"How I made my first million" by Jabberwocky

Chapter 1: You bought my book
Chapter 2: ????
Chapter 3: Profit
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Kroger supposedly.
I heard the same thing from my pharmacist over the weekend about Kroger laying off in the near future. I'm in Louisville btw.

My plan B for the pharmacy apocalypse is to continue to defer my loans after graduation by going to grad school. I'd get a phd in Micro/Immuno and go teach/research somewhere. I'd keep up on my CE hrs so that I could come back to pharm if things ever settled.
 
I heard the same thing from my pharmacist over the weekend about Kroger laying off in the near future. I'm in Louisville btw.

My plan B for the pharmacy apocalypse is to continue to defer my loans after graduation by going to grad school. I'd get a phd in Micro/Immuno and go teach/research somewhere. I'd keep up on my CE hrs so that I could come back to pharm if things ever settled.

Yeah I heard the same thing about Kroger in Louisville. Not really sure about details yet. And most krogers I know in Louisville are busy. Seems like a bad company decision from first look. Should have more to report back on the situation soon.
 
No more OT speaks for itself. New grads don't have a permanent store. Literally 0 OT for me - in San Diego, Palm Springs (desert area), Los Angeles, Riverside, Orange County and San Bernandino. One - Two years ago I had AT LEAST 40 hours hours OT every 2 weeks. Yup, even the boonies are taken... Best of luck for 2011 grads.
 
Awful. There will be 3 more schools, in addition to the current 2, pumping out grads in the next 4 yrs.

I got something in the mail the other day from Roosevelt and I almost died laughing. I seriously couldn't believe they are going to open another school in Chicago. I graduated in 2009 and my classmates were literally SCRAMBLING to find jobs in the area. Very few got lucky and had to go to Wisconsin or central IL. A few classmates decided to do residencies but now they don't know what they are going to do with their residency. I got lucky and found a staff/clinical position in Florida. I would have liked to have stayed in Chicago for a residency but seeing how bad things have gotten I am glad I took the real job instead. I am not putting down people who do residencies but academia brainwashes us into thinking that's the only route to go if you want to work in a hospital. It's just unfortunate that they fail to mention that even with a PGY-2, if there aren't any positions available there simply aren't any positions available. Relocated to some obscure part of the country hundreds of miles away from your family and friends isn't worth it just to say you are some sort of fancy "clinical pharmacist". I am VERY curious to see what's going to happen in 2011. I was at midyear in December and I literally heard nothing but students worrying about their future. It's a shame. Those of us lucky to have graduated before all of this have our experience and connections to build upon but new grads are temporarily screwed.....especially the ones that are going to be graduating from schools like Roosevelt. What sort of rotations are even going to be available for them? Midwestern and UIC already got a hold on all of the major medical centers in the Chicagoland area.
 
Where are the new schools opening in Chicago?
 
I heard the same thing from my pharmacist over the weekend about Kroger laying off in the near future. I'm in Louisville btw.

My plan B for the pharmacy apocalypse is to continue to defer my loans after graduation by going to grad school. I'd get a phd in Micro/Immuno and go teach/research somewhere. I'd keep up on my CE hrs so that I could come back to pharm if things ever settled.

Kroger is going down hill just like every other corporate mass-market retail chain. This is sad because Kroger seemed like they were going in the right direction for a few years. It’s like de-sha-vu for me back to 2007 when I was with Safeway. Kroger is starting to make the same poor decisions Safeway did back then. In 2 years from 2007 to 2010 Safeway turned into a total mess. I see Kroger doing the same things. It is a shame because Kroger really has an opportunity to separate themselves. Instead they are choosing to sink to everyone else’s low level. I jumped ship from Safeway last year because I see no future for the company. Sadly after a year with Kroger I see no future for them.

Here in North Texas Wal-Mart is expanding like crazy. HEB is rumored to be moving in soon as well. It doesn’t take an MBA Harvard genius to see that not everyone is going to survive. Albertson just went through another round of closings this past week. It won’t be long before they are completely out of the market. Once HEB comes to town my prediction is Safeway will be the new Albertson’s with Kroger not far behind.
 
... I graduated in 2009 and my classmates were literally SCRAMBLING to find jobs in the area. Very few got lucky and had to go to Wisconsin or central IL. A few classmates decided to do residencies but now they don't know what they are going to do with their residency. I got lucky and found a staff/clinical position in Florida. ...

For the people talking about who in their class did and did not find jobs, what was the difference? I keep seeing about people getting "lucky" but I assume if there was a job in Chicago (for example) a lot of people from the same class would be applying for it. So which students are actually getting the jobs? Companies have to be basing their decisions on something. Everyone makes it sound like they draw from a hat.
 
For the people talking about who in their class did and did not find jobs, what was the difference? I keep seeing about people getting "lucky" but I assume if there was a job in Chicago (for example) a lot of people from the same class would be applying for it. So which students are actually getting the jobs? Companies have to be basing their decisions on something. Everyone makes it sound like they draw from a hat.

Um.. i have no experience personally with the market but you can probably bet that proven job history, interviewing skills, personality, and networking made the difference.

From what i've heard from employers in my area, being able to do the job well (and i mean the job itself -- the numbers game for the big chains + customer service, not how good of a "pharmacist" you are), is the key thing. To paraphrase my nuclear employer , "grades/academic knowledge dont mean anything, it's about whether you are a team player and a hard worker"
 
Members don't see this ad :)
For the people talking about who in their class did and did not find jobs, what was the difference? I keep seeing about people getting "lucky" but I assume if there was a job in Chicago (for example) a lot of people from the same class would be applying for it. So which students are actually getting the jobs? Companies have to be basing their decisions on something. Everyone makes it sound like they draw from a hat.

Well, what I was experiencing along with my classmates was that most employers weren't interested in new grads. They wanted people with several years experience. That's why I say for those us who are graduating now or before all this started we still have a good chance to find the right job. However, I feel sorry for the students who are going to attend these new schools that are suddenly popping up in super saturated markets thinking the hardest part of getting into pharmacy school is over just because some new "diploma mills" have opened their doors. These applicants probably haven't given thought to the crappy rotations and lack of networking that awaits them in a few years....not to mention how hard it will be for them to find a job. That isn't necesarily a bad thing but it really irks me that academia keeps spewing this garbage about pharmacist shortages, mandatory residencies and all the "clinical" mumbo jumbo they love to harp on (ambulatory care is such a joke but the way my professors used to talk you would swear 1 in 3 pharmacy jobs are am care)

Bottom line,

Our professional organizations need to push for REAL reimbursement for clincial services.....maybe even prescribing rights for PharmDs. My hospital is biggest trauma center in the area. We got everything...NICU, pediatric hospital, oncology, etc. Yet administration only looks at pharmacists' productivity as the number of orders we process. All of our time spent in the ICU or on Stroke rounds is basically "lost money" to them. That's the reality of the situation in almost every non-teaching/university health center. sad but true.

The mandatory residency thing is a joke. All these new schools have been allowed to open yet there are still only residency slots available for 10% of new grads every year.

ASHP, APHA, etc have good intentions but they really are missing the boat.
 
Um.. i have no experience personally with the market but you can probably bet that proven job history, interviewing skills, personality, and networking made the difference.

From what i've heard from employers in my area, being able to do the job well (and i mean the job itself -- the numbers game for the big chains + customer service, not how good of a "pharmacist" you are), is the key thing. To paraphrase my nuclear employer , "grades/academic knowledge dont mean anything, it's about whether you are a team player and a hard worker"

What if your both? :p
 
Well, what I was experiencing along with my classmates was that most employers weren't interested in new grads. They wanted people with several years experience. That's why I say for those us who are graduating now or before all this started we still have a good chance to find the right job. However, I feel sorry for the students who are going to attend these new schools that are suddenly popping up in super saturated markets thinking the hardest part of getting into pharmacy school is over just because some new "diploma mills" have opened their doors. These applicants probably haven't given thought to the crappy rotations and lack of networking that awaits them in a few years....not to mention how hard it will be for them to find a job. That isn't necesarily a bad thing but it really irks me that academia keeps spewing this garbage about pharmacist shortages, mandatory residencies and all the "clinical" mumbo jumbo they love to harp on (ambulatory care is such a joke but the way my professors used to talk you would swear 1 in 3 pharmacy jobs are am care)

Bottom line,

Our professional organizations need to push for REAL reimbursement for clincial services.....maybe even prescribing rights for PharmDs. My hospital is biggest trauma center in the area. We got everything...NICU, pediatric hospital, oncology, etc. Yet administration only looks at pharmacists' productivity as the number of orders we process. All of our time spent in the ICU or on Stroke rounds is basically "lost money" to them. That's the reality of the situation in almost every non-teaching/university health center. sad but true.

The mandatory residency thing is a joke. All these new schools have been allowed to open yet there are still only residency slots available for 10% of new grads every year.

ASHP, APHA, etc have good intentions but they really are missing the boat.

I believe there are limited prescribing rights for pharmacist at the VA but according to the protocol. In addition, I heard that Arizona also has this too. As always, don't take my word for it - learn for yourself.
 
There are some really interesting and different jobs in my area but like CYP said, they are all for experienced pharmacists and they are not all in metro areas.

I was really lucky to have graduated and gone through residency when I did. Loan rates were low, jobs were more plentiful, residencies less competitive. That said, I did move to the sticks for my job but that was by choice.
 
I believe there are limited prescribing rights for pharmacist at the VA but according to the protocol. In addition, I heard that Arizona also has this too. As always, don't take my word for it - learn for yourself.

The majority of VA pharmacists do not have prescribing rights. Some do but it is always according to protocol.
 
I am from NYC (Brooklyn). If Harlem and the Bronx are hiring, I am more than willing to go! I used to work in the Bronx and went to school in Harlem....if anything I thought it would be damn near impossible to find jobs there due to recent housing developments and NYC being ULTRA-saturated.....what gives???????????

There are alot of jobs in BX for community and hosp. I came accross alot of em here and there online.
 
There are alot of jobs in BX for community and hosp. I came accross alot of em here and there online.

So true. I have been looking since I started reading this thread and seems like Bronx, Harlem, Bushwick, Bedford Stuyvestant are hiring not only retail but hospital as well. I guess it all depends on whether or not students are willing to:

A) Commute/relocate
B) Willing to work in neighborhoods that have certain demographics/ socioeconomic profiles (i.e. low income-minority neighborhoods).

I have been in Brooklyn all my life, attended school in Harlem and worked in the Bronx. So I do know the layout (maybe the Bx, not as much). If they have jobs open, I would jump at the chance! I'm currently out of state attending pharmacy school, but I will most likely try my hardest to practice back in NYC :)luck::luck::luck::luck:), despite the "oversaturation pharmacy apocalypse" prophecies I read on here EVERYDAY:)scared::scared::scared:).

Thanks WhyMee
 
In terms of prescribing rights, is that synonymous with a collaborative agreement or are you talking about pharmacists prescribing without a CA/formulary to work from?

NC, PA, and a few other states either have a law going for CAs or are currently working on it. So I mean, at least in that perspective some states are trying to give pharmacists more freedom...
 
I heard the same thing from my pharmacist over the weekend about Kroger laying off in the near future. I'm in Louisville btw.

My plan B for the pharmacy apocalypse is to continue to defer my loans after graduation by going to grad school. I'd get a phd in Micro/Immuno and go teach/research somewhere. I'd keep up on my CE hrs so that I could come back to pharm if things ever settled.

Yeah, I'm hearing over 30 pharmacists are getting laid off by Kroger. Crazy!
 
Yeah, I'm hearing over 30 pharmacists are getting laid off by Kroger. Crazy!

Where at? Is this full time or part time pharmacists? In Ohio 1 year ago they laid off a bunch of part time pharmacists. 90 or so if I remember correctly.

THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH -Kroger lays off 93 part-time pharmacists in Columbus area stores. Feb 2010

I'm telling you retail as a whole is going to crap. It is no longer just CVS and Walgreens. All the rest are following suit.
 
Awful. There will be 3 more schools, in addition to the current 2, pumping out grads in the next 4 yrs.

I just got a postcard from Roosevelt University; they're looking for preceptors.

Their first class matriculates in July. :scared:
 
Where at? Is this full time or part time pharmacists? In Ohio 1 year ago they laid off a bunch of part time pharmacists. 90 or so if I remember correctly.



I'm telling you retail as a whole is going to crap. It is no longer just CVS and Walgreens. All the rest are following suit.

Louisville, KY. Full-time I'm assuming. We all know the $4 script business model is not profitable or good for our profession. Kroger stock has been struggling recently and I'd say just like every major corporation in this economy, they are trying to cut expenses. If they layoff 30 pharmacists * 120,000/year = 3.6 million savings (not incl. benefit costs). I don't agree with it, but they have tried to follow in Wal-mart's footsteps.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/01/19/should-you-sell-kroger-right-now.aspx

Read final recap if you don't want to read the whole article.
 
Where at? Is this full time or part time pharmacists? In Ohio 1 year ago they laid off a bunch of part time pharmacists. 90 or so if I remember correctly.



I'm telling you retail as a whole is going to crap. It is no longer just CVS and Walgreens. All the rest are following suit.

Wow, how many pharmacists did each store have, or did Kroger also close a lot of stores and/or pharmacies? This shows just 29 Kroger stores in all of Ohio.

http://services.kroger.com/StoreLoc...inder=False&Generics=False&GiftRegistry=False
 
Louisville, KY. Full-time I'm assuming. We all know the $4 script business model is not profitable or good for our profession. Kroger stock has been struggling recently and I'd say just like every major corporation in this economy, they are trying to cut expenses. If they layoff 30 pharmacists * 120,000/year = 3.6 million savings (not incl. benefit costs). I don't agree with it, but they have tried to follow in Wal-mart's footsteps.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/01/19/should-you-sell-kroger-right-now.aspx

Read final recap if you don't want to read the whole article.

Nice article thanks!
 
I just got a postcard from Roosevelt University; they're looking for preceptors.

Their first class matriculates in July. :scared:

Same, and I live in the Milwaukee area. Per Wisconsin law, I can't even be a preceptor yet. I haven't had my license long enough. Here in Milwaukee, demand=supply. From what I have heard, they really won't be hearing that much for this upcoming summer.
 
Do you guys think we'll see a drop in salary in the next few years? To me, it seems reasonable based on law of supply and demand. I'd say after this year, every major market will be saturated and then pumping out 12,000 grads into 2012, we'll really be saturated. If your employer came to you tomorrow and cut your pay 10K, what would you do?
 
Do you guys think we'll see a drop in salary in the next few years? To me, it seems reasonable based on law of supply and demand. I'd say after this year, every major market will be saturated and then pumping out 12,000 grads into 2012, we'll really be saturated. If your employer came to you tomorrow and cut your pay 10K, what would you do?

Do you think they would do that? I do not. I think you will see new grads offered a much lower salary with raises and bonus ending for exisiting employees.
 
We were talking about the advent of new pharmacy schools ten years ago, and my preceptor had predicted the worst which is happening today. Cranking out new grads and saturating the market. I often wonder if these new schools are being built to alleviate shortage in the underpresented places. (and to make money)

Houston is completely saturated. It has two schools here and folks wanting to stay in Houston. However, I heard with the last few graduating classes, many and I do mean many moved out of Houston. It is where the native Houstonians feel they have a right to stay and are not moving (spoke with a 30yr vet "I ain't moving!") so it is the newer grads moving out to the Valley, small towns, etc. to work.

Which I guess was the school's intention...foreign doctors already had that idea, moving to the U.S. and filling positions in towns few would want to work in.
 
Do you think they would do that? I do not. I think you will see new grads offered a much lower salary with raises and bonus ending for exisiting employees.


Agree, new grads offered less and increase pressure on older pharms that make more per hour so that they leave. May eventually try to lower salaries across the board in a trial region or district. Probalby a highly saturated area that is competitive. They could use the excuse of competition or lower insurance reimbursements. They will have enough other pharms looking for work so they will be able to pull it off. Other industries have had pay cuts. I don't think pharmacy will be exempt. Once they are successful in one area it will continue in others.
 
Agree, new grads offered less and increase pressure on older pharms that make more per hour so that they leave. May eventually try to lower salaries across the board in a trial region or district. Probalby a highly saturated area that is competitive. They could use the excuse of competition or lower insurance reimbursements. They will have enough other pharms looking for work so they will be able to pull it off. Other industries have had pay cuts. I don't think pharmacy will be exempt. Once they are successful in one area it will continue in others.

I could maybe see paying new grads less, but I think we ar also entering uncharted territory here. We will see more pressure across the board to perform or get out.... Already happening. I think they will try to put more pressure on the crappy pharmacists to get them out. Don't think bonuses will be cut, but maybe restructured based on performance. In other words, it won't be as automatic. Aggressive pay cuts and everyones moral is down which isn't good for business either. It's going to be interesting how this situation is handled because I think if reductions do occur well see a lot of upset rphs. I think companies roll the dice and take the chance because they know they have us and there's not much we can do about it. Last year I got a small raise but this year I expect same salary, then next year maybe decreases. But back to my question..... What would you do if your salary got cut 10k per year?
 
Another thought..... Let's assume salaries go from 120k to 90k with tons of grads still fighting for jobs. Shouldn't the market correct itself in this situation? Maybe less applicants, lower class sizes, schools close? I've read from journal articles and from other sites, that some of the older pharmacists have witnessed surpluses before and seen closures and application rates drop drastically. Any old school rphs wanna elaborate on this topic?
 
Another thought..... Let's assume salaries go from 120k to 90k with tons of grads still fighting for jobs. Shouldn't the market correct itself in this situation? Maybe less applicants, lower class sizes, schools close? I've read from journal articles and from other sites, that some of the older pharmacists have witnessed surpluses before and seen closures and application rates drop drastically. Any old school rphs wanna elaborate on this topic?

I may be a lowly pre-pharm but I think salaries would have to drop way below 90k to see the effects you described. In these tough economic times, 90k is still a very reasonable salary especially considering many people do an MBA or grad school before finding a job that even remotely pays 90k. Yes the debt to income ratio might dissuade some but pharmacy would still be a solid option for others. I do think application rates will likely go down but considering most schools get at least 4 applicants per spot I don't think it would go down to a point where schools can't fill their seats.
 
I may be a lowly pre-pharm but I think salaries would have to drop way below 90k to see the effects you described. In these tough economic times, 90k is still a very reasonable salary especially considering many people do an MBA or grad school before finding a job that even remotely pays 90k. Yes the debt to income ratio might dissuade some but pharmacy would still be a solid option for others. I do think application rates will likely go down but considering most schools get at least 4 applicants per spot I don't think it would go down to a point where schools can't fill their seats.

200k in tuition is not a good return on investment for a 90k salary that is a plateaued salary. I paid about 60k for 4 years of pharmacy school. I cant imagine to more than double that # for a 90k salary. You gotta think that 90k is really not 90k. Take out taxes, retirement, health insurance etc. And you're looking at more like 60k net = 5k/month. Just not worth my time IMO. I'd rather invest 7 years into something else. I used 90k as an arbitrary # for illustration points. But, with that 90k comes a flat salary, bad working conditions as there is a surplus so companies can push you hard without lunch or breaks, and don't forget that to get that 90k job you likely will have to beat out 50 other people and withstand unemployment for who knows how long? Sound appealing to you?

MBA ppl are in the same boat as they think they can attend diploma mill MBA programs and end up with a 100k salary bc they have an MBA now.... Not going to happen. MBA programs are tiered like law and it matters more where you went to school to land the job and salary.

My argument is that if supply exceeds demand some sort of market force will take place to bring things back to equilibrium..... What will that force be?
 
$5000/month is hardly a pittance. It's more money that the vast majority of Americans will ever see. I'm not sure 150 - 200K is a bad investment if the return is $90,000/year for 40 years, particularly if you love pharmacy and want to be a pharmacist. People who are motivated solely by money in their careers tend to have low job satisfaction anyway.

What other field can you 7 years for a guaranteed six figure (or close to it) salary? Most other professional school programs are a minimum of 8 years (+ residency for some) and the majority of people who go into business, finance, banking and the like never make it big.


200k in tuition is not a good return on investment for a 90k salary that is a plateaued salary. I paid about 60k for 4 years of pharmacy school. I cant imagine to more than double that # for a 90k salary. You gotta think that 90k is really not 90k. Take out taxes, retirement, health insurance etc. And you're looking at more like 60k net = 5k/month. Just not worth my time IMO. I'd rather invest 7 years into something else. I used 90k as an arbitrary # for illustration points. But, with that 90k comes a flat salary, bad working conditions as there is a surplus so companies can push you hard without lunch or breaks, and don't forget that to get that 90k job you likely will have to beat out 50 other people and withstand unemployment for who knows how long? Sound appealing to you?

MBA ppl are in the same boat as they think they can attend diploma mill MBA programs and end up with a 100k salary bc they have an MBA now.... Not going to happen. MBA programs are tiered like law and it matters more where you went to school to land the job and salary.

My argument is that if supply exceeds demand some sort of market force will take place to bring things back to equilibrium..... What will that force be?
 
I think that part of the issue with people upset doing retail at 80k is that they know they were supposed to make more than that, upwards of 110k. It's like being told you'd get an A in a class and then you get a B for the same amount of effort taken to get an A. However, in the future, when people are thinking about pharmacy and they hear 80k they will be happy solely for the fact that it is 80k a year in the medical field. Some people who get PhDs (similar/more work than a pharmD) make less than 80k a year so everyone will still see that amount to be pretty good in comparison to other programs available to them.

Now hospital pharms. make around 80k a year but they don't have the same work environment or directions to follow. But some people take the pay cut because they want to do pharmacy; others will make more because they want the money and will do retail.
 
$5000/month is hardly a pittance. It's more money that the vast majority of Americans will ever see. I'm not sure 150 - 200K is a bad investment if the return is $90,000/year for 40 years, particularly if you love pharmacy and want to be a pharmacist. People who are motivated solely by money in their careers tend to have low job satisfaction anyway.

What other field can you 7 years for a guaranteed six figure (or close to it) salary? Most other professional school programs are a minimum of 8 years (+ residency for some) and the majority of people who go into business, finance, banking and the like never make it big.

You'll also probably be paying somewhere between 1000-1500 per month for 30 years to repay you tuition. The average American also does not have 7 years of college education so you are comparing apples to oranges based on that theory. People who are solely motivated by money will have low satisfaction, but would you work as a pharmacist for 40k a year and incur 200k debt if you really love it? I think most people balance passion and rewards from a career into their career choice. Six figures is not guaranteed anymore and neither is a job. Unemployment may be guaranteed soon for newly graduated pharmacists. I love my job but don't think I could go into prepharm at this point given all the circumstances surrounding the profession.
 
I just got a postcard from Roosevelt University; they're looking for preceptors.

Their first class matriculates in July. :scared:

This school 100% is a diploma mill and nothing more. They have not business opening a pharmacy school. They are 100% in it for the money and nothing else. Students will be paying $42,000/yr for a second rate education. They are having a lot of problems getting faculty to go there.
 
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