Is your school/hospital still wearing masks?

[Browns99]

Ummm... yes? Social consequences have always differed from professional consequences and legal consequences.

Plenty of objectively crummy actions don't have professional or legal consequences, but that doesn't mean we all have to withhold our thoughts and judgements. This isn't remotely new.

A med student gets a speeding ticket. Will there be legal consequences? Yes. Professional consequences? No. Social consequences? No.

A med student shows up late to rounds. Legal? No. Professional? Yes. Social? No.

A med student goes to an attending's house and makes a somewhat off-color joke. Legal? No. Professional? No. Social? Yes.

A med student refuses to wear a mask after an attending asks them very politely to do so. Legal? No. Professional? No. Social? Yes, obviously.

I think you are severely underestimating our patient population and probably underestimating the effect of masks on your own histories. I work in several hospitals with diverse patient populations. Non-native speakers are much less of a problem with masks at most hospitals, but couple that with severe mental health and socioeconomic factors and communication becomes paramount. We recently diagnosed someone with a very rare cause of heart failure based on a piece of history that was only picked up because someone pressed the patient on a particularity after seeing their facial expression while taking history.

It's hard to know what you're missing. Can you say for certain you haven't misunderstood a patient or missed a subtlety in the history?

For reference, out of 100+ healthcare professionals I've worked with, not a single one has expressed any degree of upset over the fact that our patients at this hospital take their masks off (since vaccine rollout, anyway). It's extremely common for attendings these days to ask patients to doff the mask during history, especially if the patient is socially complicated and limited health records exist for them.

Communication is one of the most important pieces of patient care, and masks absolutely hinder communication. The tradeoff is something that should be discussed with nuance, based on the situation, not off-handed, blanket statements about how it "shouldn't be an excuse."

Well, sometimes, we must stand up and just say no, just because it may have social consequences means nothing if it goes against all that you stand for. An attending, who outside of hospital policy wants a med student to wear a mask because it is their personal beliefs that masks should be worn forever, does not cut it. Sure, the attending can make life tough, but I say if the hospital policy does not support it and it bothers you that much to put the mask on, you go right ahead and don't put it on This is not to say you do it because you are looking for trouble, but the last time I checked, we are free to do what we want when it does not violate any law, policy, regulations or social norms and no, just because you believe in something, albeit, not mandated does not mean I have to comply, sorry.

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[LunaOri]

Well, sometimes, we must stand up and just say no, just because it may have social consequences means nothing if it goes against all that you stand for. An attending, who outside of hospital policy wants a med student to wear a mask because it is their personal beliefs that masks should be worn forever, does not cut it. Sure, the attending can make life tough, but I say if the hospital policy does not support it and it bothers you that much to put the mask on, you go right ahead and don't put it on This is not to say you do it because you are looking for trouble, but the last time I checked, we are free to do what we want when it does not violate any law, policy, regulations or social norms and no, just because you believe in something, albeit, not mandated does not mean I have to comply, sorry.

If I, as your attending physician, request that you put on a mask, it is because I am immune compromised/pregnant/work with immune compromised patients, or some other very good reason (that I do not have to disclose to you). I would not hold it against you if you said “I would prefer not to wear a mask unless it is really necessary”, but if I say it is necessary and you refuse, that speaks volumes about your character and attitude.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Well, sometimes, we must stand up and just say no, just because it may have social consequences means nothing if it goes against all that you stand for. An attending, who outside of hospital policy wants a med student to wear a mask because it is their personal beliefs that masks should be worn forever, does not cut it. Sure, the attending can make life tough, but I say if the hospital policy does not support it and it bothers you that much to put the mask on, you go right ahead and don't put it on This is not to say you do it because you are looking for trouble, but the last time I checked, we are free to do what we want when it does not violate any law, policy, regulations or social norms and no, just because you believe in something, albeit, not mandated does not mean I have to comply, sorry.

Wearing a mask as a medical student in a small group setting because an attending asks you to goes against all that you stand for? Neat, I guess.

No is is saying you're going to get into any legal trouble for not masking in most places. But if you're a medical student and an attending asks you to put one on, you have almost nothing to gain and very potentially a huge amount to lose by refusing.

 

[deleted1064759]

Even if vaxxed, the chances of getting COVID are much higher than .000001%. The chances of a bad outcome from COVID, even if perfectly healthy, are much higher than that esp if we include post COVID syndromes. It's perhaps more accurate to say that you have personally decided that the annoyance of wearing a mask outweighs your perceived risk of getting COVID.

Probably are higher than .000001%, I was exaggerating a little.

However, I think you are overestimating the chances of a bad outcome from COVID. Even including post-COVID syndromes, the current rates for COVID hospitalization (or any medically recorded poor outcomes, for that matter) are drastically inflated. This is because it's based on the premise that everyone who has/had COVID has tested positive and is a 'case', which is not true. There are probably at least 5-10 people who had covid, were just fine, but did not get tested so they aren't factored into the COVID 'bad outcomes' denominator or subsequent relative risk ratios.

This is a bit of a tangent from my OP and I'm not a covid denier, but I think it's definitely worth noting since it seems like even world-renowned epidemiologists don't address this glaring limitation in their analyses.

 

[deleted1064759]

Another point I wanted to mention is that if we were going off group tendencies to mask, we'd probably be masked forever. I literally have classmates who never take off their masks for any reason (even walking alone). Some use masks as a face warmer, which I think is actually hilarious. One friend is just a germophobe and doesn't necessarily fear covid but stays masked all the time. Someone has to diverge from this herd mentality, especially in the circlejerk that is academia.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Another point I wanted to mention is that if we were going off group tendencies to mask, we'd probably be masked forever. I literally have classmates who never take off their masks for any reason (even walking alone). Some use masks as a face warmer, which I think is actually hilarious. One friend is just a germophobe and doesn't necessarily fear covid but stays masked all the time. Someone has to diverge from this herd mentality, especially in the circlejerk that is academia.

Not even close. Outside of work I would say maybe 1 in every 20-30 people I see are still wearing masks. Went to Costco yesterday, saw somewhere between 5-10 people wearing masks in the store. Usually around the same at the grocery store. Vast majority don't wear them anymore.

This might be location dependent though.

 

[operaman]

I definitely have no love for masks in our current climate and tend to agree with Bill Maher who said that masks today are basically an amulet, a St Christopher medal and just about as effective. Even in hospitals they’re either used inconsistently, improperly, reused between patients/days, or even plain ineffective cloth masks. Healthcare now is almost as bad as when we had to wear the mask from the door to the bar before unmasking for 2 hours of carousing.

That said, if someone specifically asks or if it’s a rule, I’m not going to be a douche about it. If an attending is being unreasonable in requesting it, there are proper channels through which to report it and have it corrected. Personally I’d just put on the mask without a fuss and then report it up the chain and let that attending’s administration handle it. If they’re requesting something that’s against hospital policy, then they need to stop and that message is best delivered from someone else and where they don’t associate it with you.

It really has become a religion for some people, and basic courtesy means trying to be respectful of their religion much like we dress appropriately for church or take our shoes off at someone else’s home. While they shouldn’t be allowed to compel others to practice their faith, it takes some time to unravel these things and get back to a place where we have neither masks nor prayer in schools.

 

[operaman]

Not even close. Outside of work I would say maybe 1 in every 20-30 people I see are still wearing masks. Went to Costco yesterday, saw somewhere between 5-10 people wearing masks in the store. Usually around the same at the grocery store. Vast majority don't wear them anymore.

This might be location dependent though.

I’m in a very very high masking area and Costco looks pretty similar over here - maybe a handful more. We still have quite a few people who are masking outside or even in their cars, but the majority these days are unmasked.

 

[Browns99]

Wearing a mask as a medical student in a small group setting because an attending asks you to goes against all that you stand for? Neat, I guess.

No is is saying you're going to get into any legal trouble for not masking in most places. But if you're a medical student and an attending asks you to put one on, you have almost nothing to gain and very potentially a huge amount to lose by refusing.

You kind of missed my basic point as to what I was saying regarding what one stands for, which was in response to the poster's statement about social consequences. Do I think the attending's request was insane, no, but the poster who did not want to put the mask on when not required, also has a right not to do so....we do not live in a communist/socialist country...maybe we are heading in that direction.

I don't think anyone will argue the point that it probably is in the student's best interest to comply with the attending, it wasn't the point of my response. I was merely saying at what point is it ok to be you. What happens when the epidemic is completely gone and we have the same attending who still wants students masked when around him/her, do we remain compliant because the attending said so.....food for thought, that's all.

 

[deleted1064759]

Yeah definitely location dependent. My date and I discussed last night jokingly about how woke our areas (our current city and her very liberal college city) are about masking and pronouns.

 

[SooConfused]

I was merely saying at what point is it ok to be you. What happens when the epidemic is completely gone and we have the same attending who still wants students masked when around him/her, do we remain compliant because the attending said so.....food for thought, that's all.

And the answer is -- when you control your own destiny and don't have to answer to anyone. Not just with masking, but with anything someone in a position of authority, with control over your future, wants you to do that you don't want to.

In general, it's okay for you to be you on your own time, in your own place. Anywhere or anyplace else, it's always a risk/reward balance.

Personal freedom and masks seems like a petty hill to die on in a medical setting in the middle of a pandemic. Of course, everyone needs to do their own calculation and proceed accordingly.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

And the answer is -- when you control your own destiny and don't have to answer to anyone. Not just with masking, but with anything someone in a position of authority, with control over your future, wants you to do that you don't want to.

In general, it's okay for you to be you on your own time, in your own place. Anywhere or anyplace else, it's always a risk/reward balance.

Personal freedom and masks seems like a petty hill to die on in a medical setting in the middle of a pandemic. Of course, everyone needs to do their own calculation and proceed accordingly.

This exactly. I'm an attending physician but even I can't get away with wearing a bathing suit and flip flops to work every day.

 

[DOswag]

This is the part I think that bothers me is that it has become somewhat of a religion for people. I am totally fine with someone wanting to wear a masks if they feel uncomfortable without one. The outcry/shame/Virtue signal is too much for me especially from people who are vaxxed/multi-boosted etc. I came from a place that was extreme on the liberal side and a good number of the general population were still masking when out in public, out on walks by themselves, riding in cars by themselves, even being at the beach out swimming in the water by themselves. And that many people are wearing no more than cloth mask, bandanna, literally anything to cover their face to assuage the store/restaurant/site/wherever they are. We know that these cloth masks are not effective.

 

[00CR7]

I'm a student at a NY medical school that has a vaccine mandate. Masks are mandatory whenever you are on campus - class, labs, library, etc. The only places you can be unmasked are designated eating areas (ie. cafeteria). Our standardized patient encounters and preceptorships (and presumably also rotations) require masks (surgical masks for SPs, N-95 for preceptorships) in addition to UTD vaccinations.

NY was pretty much the epicenter of COVID-19 in March 2020 so I don't know how much I can blame our school for being overly cautious.

 

[nimbus]

PP anesthesia at a private hospital in Southern Ca. Everybody is required to wear a mask when they are inside the building. We have outdoor dining patios where we can take our masks off to eat.

We don’t have a community mask mandate. It’s interesting because many people are unmasked at the mainstream grocery stores but in Asian markets like H Mart, everybody still masks. I’m vaxxed and boosted and still wear a mask indoors. I do not wear a mask outdoors or driving my own car with my own family. However I do mask inside Ubers. So far, my family and I still haven’t contracted COVID.

 

[CrazyHorseLady]

I’m convinced my school nor any hospital in Illinois will ever give up the mask mandate. Must be nice.

Not true. My school in the Chicago area is mask optional, although we had a campus wide vaccination tracker and once it reached like 97% compliance we were mask optional.

Tbh glad we still have them in hospitals especially going to cook county where sometimes you have no idea what someone has. Might be a cold, might be tuberculosis.

 

[CrazyHorseLady]

You kind of missed my basic point as to what I was saying regarding what one stands for, which was in response to the poster's statement about social consequences. Do I think the attending's request was insane, no, but the poster who did not want to put the mask on when not required, also has a right not to do so....we do not live in a communist/socialist country...maybe we are heading in that direction.

I don't think anyone will argue the point that it probably is in the student's best interest to comply with the attending, it wasn't the point of my response. I was merely saying at what point is it ok to be you. What happens when the epidemic is completely gone and we have the same attending who still wants students masked when around him/her, do we remain compliant because the attending said so.....food for thought, that's all.

Ah the classic regurgitation of “masks=communism”. God forbid we respect others rights to not get our germs and protect their grandma and paw-paw from potentially getting sick or their sister who has cancer, etc etc. honestly I find it sad it has taken us in America so long compared to other countries to do something so simple as put a mask on in public, which has definitely proven to be effective in healthcare regardless if we are talking about covid, flu, surgery contamination, etc. if you think something as trivial as this is an impingement on your freedoms, maybe you should take a one way trip to Russia or North Korea and find out the actual difference.

 

[oldman]

With Covid pretty much over, I was wondering if it's just my hospital wearing masks. We're required to be vaccinated + boostered, like most places.

I know some other school-affiliated hospitals which don't wear them at all so just curious.

Edit: by over, I mean on it's tail end. It will never be 'over', just like the flu.

masks around all areas with patients, in meetings I see people taking off masks, but if I'm near anyone I keep my mask on. I have terrible man colds, can't imagine anything worse than that.

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

You kind of missed my basic point as to what I was saying regarding what one stands for, which was in response to the poster's statement about social consequences. Do I think the attending's request was insane, no, but the poster who did not want to put the mask on when not required, also has a right not to do so....we do not live in a communist/socialist country...maybe we are heading in that direction.

I don't think anyone will argue the point that it probably is in the student's best interest to comply with the attending, it wasn't the point of my response. I was merely saying at what point is it ok to be you. What happens when the epidemic is completely gone and we have the same attending who still wants students masked when around him/her, do we remain compliant because the attending said so.....food for thought, that's all.

It's just a dumb hill to die on. You're not fighting tyranny by doffing your mask in the face of some attending. Your hypothesis is that people are driven to masking by emotion over logic. I'm sure you're correct in some cases. However, even if you are correct, making a scene over wearing a mask in such a petty way is only strengthening their position since it's driven by emotion anyway. By doing this in perhaps the only scenario where studies strongly back up decreased transmission via masking (small group, indoor space, high compliance), you're also demonstrating a bit of ignorance.

When the pandemic is completely gone, COVID is fully endemic, and some attending still wants students masked... honestly you deal with it the same way you'd deal with any person making a nonsense request based on their feelings. It would hardly be the first or only time someone makes a request of you that is based on their own anxiety. You assess the request and reason out some sort of compromise.

Also, if you're trying to fight some sort of fight, do it. You're not some random dude in Tallahassee whose only means of protest is truck nuts, bad bumper stickers, and childish defiance. You're a medical student. Find individuals in the community who share your hypothesis, examine the data, and send it through peer review. Don't fight people. Fight policies.

 

[Browns99]

Ah the classic regurgitation of “masks=communism”. God forbid we respect others rights to not get our germs and protect their grandma and paw-paw from potentially getting sick or their sister who has cancer, etc etc. honestly I find it sad it has taken us in America so long compared to other countries to do something so simple as put a mask on in public, which has definitely proven to be effective in healthcare regardless if we are talking about covid, flu, surgery contamination, etc. if you think something as trivial as this is an impingement on your freedoms, maybe you should take a one way trip to Russia or North Korea and find out the actual difference.

No, maybe you should take a trip to Russia....but I see that you are on the side of, only your opinion matters, as are your up-voters. That's ok though, we all have our opinions. Good luck in your small bubble.

 

[Browns99]

It's just a dumb hill to die on. You're not fighting tyranny by doffing your mask in the face of some attending. Your hypothesis is that people are driven to masking by emotion over logic. I'm sure you're correct in some cases. However, even if you are correct, making a scene over wearing a mask in such a petty way is only strengthening their position since it's driven by emotion anyway. By doing this in perhaps the only scenario where studies strongly back up decreased transmission via masking (small group, indoor space, high compliance), you're also demonstrating a bit of ignorance.

When the pandemic is completely gone, COVID is fully endemic, and some attending still wants students masked... honestly you deal with it the same way you'd deal with any person making a nonsense request based on their feelings. It would hardly be the first or only time someone makes a request of you that is based on their own anxiety. You assess the request and reason out some sort of compromise.

Also, if you're trying to fight some sort of fight, do it. You're not some random dude in Tallahassee whose only means of protest is truck nuts, bad bumper stickers, and childish defiance. You're a medical student. Find individuals in the community who share your hypothesis, examine the data, and send it through peer review. Don't fight people. Fight policies.

So, ignorance because I have feel the way I do, got it....another poster that refuses to accept how the other side feels. All you can do is resort to name calling...sad. You are the same person that believed everything that was told to you about the virus, regardless of whether it was grounded in science or not, but if Fauci and crew said it, it had to be true, smh.

 

[GoSpursGo]

In summary, some places are still masking and other places are not.

I think this thread has run its course.