IVY League pre-med student, no interview invites

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haha but on the bright side the 0.005% of people who care would recognize the name and the vast vast majority of people who don't care won't have your interactions colored by any preconceived notions or expectations... :)
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darkjedi said:
forget being recognized as Ivy, most laypeople still confuse Penn with Penn State
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If it were called Amherst University or something, half of its problems would disappear.

My aunt, who taught with Penn alumni at UCSD, insisted that while it was a good school, it was just a state school and wasn't worth going out of state for when I was accepted lol.

Everyone knows HYP, Columbia is smack dab in the biggest city in the US, people kind of know Brown because of Family Guy, Dartmouth gets little mentions everywhere, people kind of know Cornell because of The Office, but Donald Trump (and maybe Noam Chomsky) is the only reference that comes to mind when I think of Penn.
 
Did you have someone read your personal statement? I feel that you should have gotten at least one interview invite from your state schools.
 
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Im new, but the idea of a negative LOR is perplexing to me. Negative meaning it just wasn't particularly relevant to what med schools are looking for or that it actually included negative remarks about the OP? Why would either circumstance ever be true if your relationship was strong enough to consider them for a LOR and they agreed? Maybe I'm missing something here
 
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bbsare said:
I wouldn't say that's grade grubbing, just annoying..but it could demonstrate you are more concerned about tests than the material. You should assume what you are being taught is testable material unless the professor specifies you don't need to know it for a test.
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Ugh, yes. This. I get a thousand emails right before the exam, not to mention all of the interruptions in class, asking about specific tidbits of information for the exam. The way I see it, if I said it during class, it's fair game for the test. And then the end-of-semester grubbers come in to tell me how much they deserve a higher grade because it will ruin their chances for [insert professional school here]. Sure fire way to get on my bad side. You get the grade you earn. If you don't have an A, it's because you didn't do A work. Simple as that. I hope OP wasn't like this with an LOR writer, but it happens. I'm sure he'll get interviews somewhere.
 
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I'm pretty sure kids that went to UPenn don't really care what the layperson thinks about the school since those that need to know, know it well.
 
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mimelim said:
Not really. Ivy is completely meaningless and I've spent my fair share of time at Harvard.

Personal anecdote, the only people I've ever heard in ~4 years of pre-med advising/medical school admissions refer to Ivy League are people from Penn and Brown. And I know a lot more people from Harvard/Columbia than people from Penn/Brown.
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Meaningless how? That it actually doesn't matter and we are all judged completely on merit?

..and you are sure that your Harvard status did not have its fair share of influence in your being able to secure the next position at Harvard/Columbia?
 
mimelim said:
Not really. Ivy is completely meaningless and I've spent my fair share of time at Harvard.

Personal anecdote, the only people I've ever heard in ~4 years of pre-med advising/medical school admissions refer to Ivy League are people from Penn and Brown. And I know a lot more people from Harvard/Columbia than people from Penn/Brown.
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But the Harvard kids when asked where they went to school respond that they "went to school outside of Boston". Or the Yale kids who say they went to school "In Connecticut".

Which is more annoying...the over-use of Ivy by Penn/Cornell grads...or the false modesty of the Harvard/Yales...hard to say.
 
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southernIM said:
But the Harvard kids when asked where they went to school respond that they "went to school outside of Boston". Or the Yale kids who say they went to school "In Connecticut".

Which is more annoying...the over-use of Ivy by Penn/Cornell grads...or the false modesty of the Harvard/Yales...hard to say.
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It's not false modesty. I've found myself saying New Jersey sometimes because actually stating my school outright has created multiple situations in which unrealistic expectations about my work were created. You laugh when I say that, but it's not uncommon.

Say it in a work environment? (omg throw that smart ass intern all the grunt work; he'll get it done quickly) Say it in Asia? [Don't do it; just don't.] (holy sh*it you must be a fu*cking genius) Do this around parents of almost college age students? (what was your GPA? SAT? ACT? SAT II? APs? Can you read over my kid's application essays next year? Can we have your email to ask you questions?) It gets annoying after a handful of responses like that, and so some people just don't think the school is all that relevant anymore, and thus appear to be a douchey modest. I personally don't care unless it's in a situation I've been in before where someone had a ridiculous response to where I went to school. But there are legitimate reasons for pulling the Boston/CT/NJ card, just so you know.
 
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moop said:
It's not false modesty. I've found myself saying New Jersey sometimes because actually stating my school outright has created multiple situations in which unrealistic expectations about my work were created. You laugh when I say that, but it's not uncommon.

Say it in a work environment? (omg throw that smart ass intern all the grunt work; he'll get it done quickly) Say it in Asia? [Don't do it; just don't.] (holy sh*it you must be a fu*cking genius) Do this around parents of almost college age students? (what was your GPA? SAT? ACT? SAT II? APs? Can you read over my kid's application essays next year? Can we have your email to ask you questions?) It gets annoying after a handful of responses like that, and so some people just don't think the school is all that relevant anymore, and thus appear to be a douchey modest. I personally don't care unless it's in a situation I've been in before where someone had a ridiculous response to where I went to school. But there are legitimate reasons for pulling the Boston/CT/NJ card, just so you know.
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what was your SAT doeee?
 
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southernIM said:
Except everyone knows what it means
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No it doesn't. I had someone mistake me for Rutgers, and I'm fine with that. Know some fine people at those schools, ain't nothing wrong with it.
You may know either because 1) you already knew, 2) you assume, or 3) you can smell this sh*it from a mile away, but that doesn't mean everyone can automatically wag their fingers at the pretentious ol' Ivy League.
 
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moop said:
Meaningless how? That it actually doesn't matter and we are all judged completely on merit?

..and you are sure that your Harvard status did not have its fair share of influence in your being able to secure the next position at Harvard/Columbia?
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Telling people you go to "an Ivy" is meaningless. Someone who throws it around like it is supposed to mean something is asking for it. The school you go to matters. Yes, name of school matters. Being a part of the Ivy League is just plain silly. The objective of dropping "an Ivy" is to conjure an image of Harvard/Princeton/Yale etc. because the person doesn't think that their school's name is enough. If you need to mention the school you went to as a selling point, you should probably worry about producing something worthwhile instead. The Ivy League grouping is completely meaningless when it comes to judging the 'worthiness' of an applicant.

And no, I don't think that any of my school associations have much of any influence on my job prospects. For starters because I left the North East. But, far more importantly because after you leave most school campuses, the colleges that you go to largely become irrelevant. I'm currently reviewing ~100 applications for our residency positions. Truthfully, I don't give a **** where you went to school. I honestly don't think that as an independent variable it means much about the applicant. It gives context and modifies other variables in an application, but thats about it.

southernIM said:
But the Harvard kids when asked where they went to school respond that they "went to school outside of Boston". Or the Yale kids who say they went to school "In Connecticut".

Which is more annoying...the over-use of Ivy by Penn/Cornell grads...or the false modesty of the Harvard/Yales...hard to say.
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I nearly punched my brother when he said the, "school in Boston" in front of me. He started doing it, I think (I hope) because that is just how everyone around him said it. He has since stopped. But, I find the "in Boston" to be more annoying than the Ivy League bit. The Ivy League association is sad, as in, pitiful that you don't have a better way to describe yourself, the "in Boston" thing is just pretension++.
 
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Goro said:
I actually experienced this: "Dr Goro, my final grade in your course is a 76, but by my complex series of grade calculations [which were so convoluted they bent the fabric of space-time], I actually ended up with a 78."
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My only objection to this is the severely incompitent biology professors. Two (though anecdotal) different professors have made the following errors:
1. Ask to review multiple choice test. Scored 50/60 (83.3%). Class was not curved. Received grade: 81% (=48.6/60) How do you get 0.6 questions right on a multiple choice test? Refused to change grade.
2.Different class. Allowed to return the Monday after finals week to see how we performed on our final. Question: match all of the following A-E that apply to the statement. Ask why is B and D wrong for this statement. She says "that looks fine to me, let me check the answer key." Answer key has G marked as correct answer....G wasn't even an option! Between this and 1 other error in the test I was able to get the extra points to bump to a B+. Absurd for all the students who decided not to review their exam.

Note: Both of these happened during my freshman year while I was still in my neurotic phase. Have massively chilled out since then.
 
moop said:
It's not false modesty. I've found myself saying New Jersey sometimes because actually stating my school outright has created multiple situations in which unrealistic expectations about my work were created. You laugh when I say that, but it's not uncommon.

Say it in a work environment? (omg throw that smart ass intern all the grunt work; he'll get it done quickly) Say it in Asia? [Don't do it; just don't.] (holy sh*it you must be a fu*cking genius) Do this around parents of almost college age students? (what was your GPA? SAT? ACT? SAT II? APs? Can you read over my kid's application essays next year? Can we have your email to ask you questions?) It gets annoying after a handful of responses like that, and so some people just don't think the school is all that relevant anymore, and thus appear to be a douchey modest. I personally don't care unless it's in a situation I've been in before where someone had a ridiculous response to where I went to school. But there are legitimate reasons for pulling the Boston/CT/NJ card, just so you know.
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Little known fact Princeton grads are actually rock stars that get mobbed by their adoring fans.
 
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mimelim said:
Telling people you go to "an Ivy" is meaningless. Someone who throws it around like it is supposed to mean something is asking for it. The school you go to matters. Yes, name of school matters. Being a part of the Ivy League is just plain silly. The objective of dropping "an Ivy" is to conjure an image of Harvard/Princeton/Yale etc. because the person doesn't think that their school's name is enough. If you need to mention the school you went to as a selling point, you should probably worry about producing something worthwhile instead. The Ivy League grouping is completely meaningless when it comes to judging the 'worthiness' of an applicant.

And no, I don't think that any of my school associations have much of any influence on my job prospects. For starters because I left the North East. But, far more importantly because after you leave most school campuses, the colleges that you go to largely become irrelevant. I'm currently reviewing ~100 applications for our residency positions. Truthfully, I don't give a **** where you went to school. I honestly don't think that as an independent variable it means much about the applicant. It gives context and modifies other variables in an application, but thats about it.
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Yeah, but that's not really how it matters. When you go to undergrad at these places, work at these places, go to medical school/residency/fellowship etc. your letters of rec come from some of the best researchers in the field. To apply to a fellowship or residency slot and have a letter from people that are incredibly well known in the field is a huge plus when the person reading the file recognizes the name. It won't save a bad applicant, but it certainly gives someone a leg up.
 
totu22 said:
Proving southernIM's point that your "school in NJ" modesty is fake.
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Ok I thought you got it but it looks like I need to add another 23 layers of sarcasm before anyone but @ridethecliche actually gets it
 
mimelim said:
Little known fact Princeton grads are actually rock stars that get mobbed by their adoring fans.
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It's serious. You have no idea what it's like to basically drown in pu*ssy all the time
 
Have you asked your ROL writ
ridethecliche said:
Yeah, but that's not really how it matters. When you go to undergrad at these places, work at these places, go to medical school/residency/fellowship etc. your letters of rec come from some of the best researchers in the field. To apply to a fellowship or residency slot and have a letter from people that are incredibly well known in the field is a huge plus when the person reading the file recognizes the name. It won't save a bad applicant, but it certainly gives someone a leg up.
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First, going to a top medical doesn't guarantee a big wig as an attending. Second, research experience is optional for majority of residencies. Third, with excellent grades and high USMLE Step 1 you pretty much can go anywhere you want for residency if you are an AMG. To sum it up: USMLE Step 1 > grades >>>>>>>>>>>>>> working with the big wigs
 
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moop said:
Ok I thought you got it but it looks like I need to add another 23 layers of sarcasm before anyone but @ridethecliche actually gets it
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Haha, yeah. I thought it was pretty clear that your responses were dripping in sarcasm.

I went to one of the 'top-tier' liberal arts schools in NE and often just respond with the 'oh I went to school in (state)' because it doesn't have name recognition depending on where people are from. It just gets old repeating the same schpeal.
 
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spik said:
First, going to a top medical doesn't guarantee a big wig as an attending. Second, research experience is optional for majority of residencies. Third, with excellent grades and high USMLE Step 1 you pretty much can go anywhere you want for residency. To sum it up: USMLE Step 1 > grades >>>>>>>>>>>>>> working with the big wigs
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It's interesting what can happen when attendings can just call xyz attending from their residency/fellowship and ask about this person that applied and they're thinking of accepting.

Maybe I'm just privy to a lot more than you are.
 
ridethecliche said:
Haha, yeah. I thought it was pretty clear that your responses were dripping in sarcasm.

I went to one of the 'top-tier' liberal arts schools in NE and often just respond with the 'oh I went to school in (state)' because it doesn't have name recognition depending on where people are from. It just gets old repeating the same schpeal.
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Ah, so you went to Amherst...UMass Amherst amirite
 
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ProspectiveKidd said:
Im new, but the idea of a negative LOR is perplexing to me. Negative meaning it just wasn't particularly relevant to what med schools are looking for or that it actually included negative remarks about the OP? Why would either circumstance ever be true if your relationship was strong enough to consider them for a LOR and they agreed? Maybe I'm missing something here
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Sometimes people write negative LORs. The student might not realize they are disliked, might have made some critical mistake that they didn't notice that left the writer smoldering for months or years, they might have enough exposure to see right through the student's "save the world via primary care" BS front, or whatever. There's a lot of reasons to end up with a negative LOR. The other way you can end up with a bad LOR on your file is if you have a committee that independently writes your letter based on the input of your professors and your academic records. Some committees will **** on your app if they don't feel your major was rigorous enough, if you have some minor scratch on your app, if they feel your MCAT wasn't high enough, or if they didn't like you in the committee interview. Committees can suck.
 
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ridethecliche said:
Yeah, but that's not really how it matters. When you go to undergrad at these places, work at these places, go to medical school/residency/fellowship etc. your letters of rec come from some of the best researchers in the field. To apply to a fellowship or residency slot and have a letter from people that are incredibly well known in the field is a huge plus when the person reading the file recognizes the name. It won't save a bad applicant, but it certainly gives someone a leg up.
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Eh, who the letter writer is, is only a fraction of the impact of a LOR. The relationship between student/writer and what the writer can attest to are far more important. There are also big names all over the country and certainly there is zero connection with being an Ivy League school and big names in medicine. Pick a specialty, any specialty, there isn't a higher concentration of big names at the Ivy's compared to other big academic centers. Do big names help? Yes, of course they do. Trying to use 'Ivy League' as a label is just silly.
 
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mimelim said:
Eh, who the letter writer is, is only a fraction of the impact of a LOR. The relationship between student/writer and what the writer can attest to are far more important. There are also big names all over the country and certainly there is zero connection with being an Ivy League school and big names in medicine. Pick a specialty, any specialty, there isn't a higher concentration of big names at the Ivy's compared to other big academic centers. Do big names help? Yes, of course they do. Trying to use 'Ivy League' as a label is just silly.
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I meant big names in the field slash powerhouse research institutions. Yes, it's possibly more related to the departments vs the school/hospital, but sometimes these things are related.

The point is that networks matter and the alumni networks at ivy's are damn good. At a certain point, those tiny advantages through college make a difference. Yes, this isn't business school/law school, where those things have way more weight, but those advantages add up.

I'm not saying that it's the only thing that matters, but it certainly doesn't hurt matters!
 
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spik said:
First, going to a top medical doesn't guarantee a big wig as an attending. Second, research experience is optional for majority of residencies. Third, with excellent grades and high USMLE Step 1 you pretty much can go anywhere you want for residency. To sum it up: USMLE Step 1 > grades >>>>>>>>>>>>>> working with the big wigs
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Which big wigs are we talking about? Are we talking like Washington wigs or Jackson wigs? (They're very different)
 
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ridethecliche said:
It's interesting what can happen when attendings can just call xyz attending from their residency/fellowship and ask about this person that applied and they're thinking of accepting.

Maybe I'm just privy to a lot more than you are.
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Most likely attending xyz has never worked with that medical student and doesn't know anything about him. Worst case scenario, attending xyz worked with the student and believes that the student is mediocre or subpar since the student has failed to leave a lasting impression.

Working with big wigs is more helpful for securing a fellowship rather than a residency. And, as it has been already noted, residency training at Ivy places can be mediocre. It depends on residency program.
 
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ridethecliche said:
It's interesting what can happen when attendings can just call xyz attending from their residency/fellowship and ask about this person that applied and they're thinking of accepting.

Maybe I'm just privy to a lot more than you are.
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I'm not sure what this has to do with prestige of a school. We do this with every single applicant that we are planning to rank near the top of our list. Connections matter. Connections in medicine coming out of "The Ivys" as a group are no better than your standard group of large academic institutions. The issue was with the use of "Ivy League".

ridethecliche said:
I meant big names in the field slash powerhouse research institutions. Yes, it's possibly more related to the departments vs the school/hospital, but sometimes these things are related.

The point is that networks matter and the alumni networks at ivy's are damn good. At a certain point, those tiny advantages through college make a difference. Yes, this isn't business school/law school, where those things have way more weight, but those advantages add up.

I'm not saying that it's the only thing that matters, but it certainly doesn't hurt matters!
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For starters, the alumni networks at some of the Ivys are exceptional. Others, they are on par with any other large academic institution (or worse for that matter), which again, makes the designation "Ivy League" silly. Again, pick your specialty. The big names are all over the place. The strong departments are all over the place and while strong academic systems tend to have the stronger programs, they certainly have nothing to do with "Ivy League" or not. Also, the majority of top programs in many specialties, if not most are outside of the big name schools.
 
spik said:
Have you asked your ROL writ

First, going to a top medical doesn't guarantee a big wig as an attending. Second, research experience is optional for majority of residencies. Third, with excellent grades and high USMLE Step 1 you pretty much can go anywhere you want for residency if you are an AMG. To sum it up: USMLE Step 1 > grades >>>>>>>>>>>>>> working with the big wigs
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True for less competitive specialities, but for ultra competitive fields like derm and plastics it most definitely can help.
 
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darkjedi said:
True for less competitive specialities, but for ultra competitive fields like derm and plastics it most definitely can help.
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Most people do not go into plastics or dermatology. Furthermore, look at the current residents at a dermatology or plastics residency of your choice. Most of them have several resident's from no-name American medical schools.
 
@mimelim , I'm semi considering schools like Caltech, Northwestern, etc. in that boat. I also mentioned the strength of the program matters for residency/fellowship as that's where the star players are. I want to say that this is more true for surgery though, right? I feel like medicine is more tied into academia in that way. That last bit is just conjecture though.

I think we're in agreement, so I'll stop.

I definitely think that medicine cares much less about where you're from than law/business school.

spik said:
Most people do not go into plastics or dermatology. Furthermore, look at the current residents at a dermatology or plastics residency of your choice. Most of them have several resident's from no-name American medical schools.
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Lol.
 
moop said:
Only non top ones there are from Downstate (best SUNY) and UT (great all around)
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UT Galveston is not even close to being a top medical school even in Texas.

What about that school in Mexico?
 
Here is a better link. UT Southwestern integrated plastics residency is one of the best in the United States, and they have residents from a variety of medical schools:

http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/educa...ning/residency-program/current-residents.html

Non-top medical schools include University of Kansas, University of South Florida, Ohio State, University of Hawaii, George Washington University, University of Louisville, Mercer University, University of Minnesota, and University of Arizona. I have excluded independent residents.
 
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spik said:
UT Galveston is not even close to being a top medical school even in Texas.
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Can you read?
moop said:
Only non top ones there are from Downstate (best SUNY) and UT (great all around)
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Mexican dude fed into HMS for PhD before heading to Penn derm. Hardly can be considered "regular."
 
Also, don't forget that top-tier medical schools recruit applicants with high MCAT scores, which correlates with higher USMLE Step 1.
 
moop said:
Can you read?
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I was referring to your comment that UT is great all around. There is nothing great about UTMB; it is just an average American school.
 
southernIM said:
Also did a one year cutaneous oncology fellowship at Penn prior to his derm residency - presumably "proved" himself during that year.
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The fun part is how he got into HMS PhD honestly haha

Though for all we know his Mexican school may have been the Mayo of Mexico or something

...holy sh*it that would be Guacamole wouldn't it

Conclusion: he went to Guac
 
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nonStopstudying said:
Hi,

it seems this thread has gotten alot of traction.....

so, related to one of the people's questions I have received secondaries from top schools that screen. but my worry is that these schools do not incorporate letter of recommendations when they screen (basically they look at stats and the entire primary application).

hence, my worry with not receiving interview invites are not my stats, personal statement, or activities. it is basically with the quality of my letter of recommendations, especially since I am not allowed to see those before applying to medical school.
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You seem fixated on the 'bad LOR' idea. So what 'bad' thing might that LOR say? Quiet? So studious your personality was invisible? Annoying or obnoxious in some way? Grade grubbing? Or just a luke-warm letter? Or one where the letter-writer barely knows you?
 
moop said:
Which big wigs are we talking about? Are we talking like Washington wigs or Jackson wigs? (They're very different)
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Gaga wigs
article-2430388-1838A8F900000578-750_634x495.jpg
 
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