JU Orthodontics

[Tooth]

I'm going to JU Orthodontics program starting July 2014. Anyone else? With a class size of 15, there's gotta be someone else on this website.

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[straightteeth]

Is it a CODA approved program?

 

[Tooth]

Is it a CODA approved program?

Seriously? They last passed in 2012 and aren't up again until 2019.

 

[straightteeth]

I see, thanks.

 

[jda02624]

They have 15 residents a year?! Is that one of the largest programs?

 

[Tooth]

They have 15 residents a year?! Is that one of the largest programs?

I think it ties with Colorado for the biggest.

 

[Twang77]

A classmate of mine is, great person.

 

[Sidka]

Hey Tooth, what's going on. Lurked on this forum before but never posted until just seeing this thread. I'm starting at JU in July as well but as a fellow not a resident. Have you had much (or any) correspondence with the school since accepting your position? I personally haven't had too much lucking getting information about the upcoming year. Nice to have a fellow JU Dolphin around though.

 

[Tooth]

No correspondence yet either. Just waiting for that packet that supposed to come in spring. Great to hear someone else on SDN is going to JU. Congrats on your acceptance into the fellowship program!

 

[Firm]

Do you still have to pay $100,000/year?

 

[Silent Cool]

Do you still have to pay $100,000/year?

Close--I believe that JU is 80K.

 

[011110]

Do you still have to pay $100,000/year?

Is being an ortho worth it to pay that, firm?

 

[Silent Cool]

Is being an ortho worth it to pay that, firm?

That's the million dollar question...er...the 750K question
Assuming you went to a private dental school and then to JU Orthodontics.

Add in practice purchase and you are looking at a cool 1.1 mil of debt.

 

[Tooth]

It's still cheaper than a three year school that charges $60K a year. Not only is total tuition cheaper, but total cost of living expenses are less when you're at a 2 year school. Plus, you get to start working a year earlier so you can kind of subtract that from your loans per se. But, yes, it does seem crazy scary to pay $80K in tuition per year.

 

[Firm]

Is being an ortho worth it to pay that, firm?

No. You still have to figure out a way to open 2 practices. Nearly all of the orthodontists that I know under 45yo have either 2 locations or 1 location plus a corporate job. If you have more than $500K in debt, you'll be working for a corporation for a LONG time. Corporation work is usually contract work which means it's only for a few years and you never get a raise. As soon as they find someone cheaper to work, you're contract is not renewed.

 

[Silent Cool]

No. You still have to figure out a way to open 2 practices. Nearly all of the orthodontists that I know under 45yo have either 2 locations or 1 location plus a corporate job. If you have more than $500K in debt, you'll be working for a corporation for a LONG time. Corporation work is usually contract work which means it's only for a few years and you never get a raise. As soon as they find someone cheaper to work, you're contract is not renewed.

Firm,

How much would you say is the max one should owe for Ortho?
Also, how much would you guess most Orthos are earning in your general area?

thanx

 

[011110]

Firm,

How much would you say is the max one should owe for Ortho?
Also, how much would you guess most Orthos are earning in your general area?

thanx

I've heard earning 120-150k for younger folks

 

[Silent Cool]

I've heard earning 120-150k for younger folks

What's interesting is that Ortho used to be the hot specialty. @Shunwei has mentioned this before--that what was popular/hot 10-15 years back is now a much tougher specialty to break into, and the economic rewards have decreased: radically increased supply, and older orthos lingering in the market. This coupled with the absurd tuition many schools are charging-->a crappy market.

I think Pedo is the new Ortho.

 

[Miley Cyrus.]

What's interesting is that Ortho used to be the hot specialty. @Shunwei has mentioned this before--that what was popular/hot 10-15 years back is now a much tougher specialty to break into, and the economic rewards have decreased: radically increased supply, and older orthos lingering in the market. This coupled with the absurd tuition many schools are charging-->a crappy market.

I think Pedo is the new Ortho.

I agree. And just look at Lutheran Medical and what these scamsters are doing to the pediatric residency positions in america. They have like 100+ different pediatric residencies, with like 20 spots each, and they open like 50 new residences each year lol. I heard the residents there aren't even taught by faculty: they just look at instructional videos on a TV lol.

 

[Shunwei]

I agree. And just look at Lutheran Medical and what these scamsters are doing to the pediatric residency positions in america. They have like 100+ different pediatric residencies, with like 20 spots each, and they open like 50 new residences each year lol. I heard the residents there aren't even taught by faculty: they just look at instructional videos on a TV lol.

In the end, guys, most peoples decisions are guided by money and greed, not reason, especially the academia. People usually don't suspect the ivory tower as having their hands dirty with common, workaday matters, but schools often are the dirtiest of them all. Look no further than the tuition crisis and the proliferation of programs. Just because they wear the mantle of a teacher don't mean ****.

FWIW, I spoke to a very large number of orthodontists and orthodontists-in-training when I was trying to make my decision. The older orthodontists mostly love their gig while he younger ones were mostly gloomy and bitter. Many told me outright to forget about ortho and that "it is not what it is cracked to be." I think with the oversupply situation and the stagnating demand, the days that a young orthodontist can get his own brick-and-mortar is basically gone, except for maybe rural areas. Most likely what's waiting for them is either associating (and being exploited) by older orthos, used/abused by dental corps, and become a traveling orthodontist to GPs. To me, none of these sound particularly good especially with a 500k debt straight out most likely, not to mention likely three years of opportunity cost.

My take is that the golden age of ortho is over, or at least in a trough of a long cycle. The older ones love their gigs because they did it in a time when it was still favorable but many of them have little understanding in how the field has changed. The younger ones went in there thinking that either they are special or that they can get to where the older ones are easily but become disillusioned when they see the conditions.

150k for a new ortho sounds about right, but that's assuming you can find a position even. And taking into account the debt load, well, it's not much.

 

[Silent Cool]

In the end, guys, most peoples decisions are guided by money and greed, not reason, especially the academia. People usually don't suspect the ivory tower as having their hands dirty with common, workaday matters, but schools often are the dirtiest of them all. Look no further than the tuition crisis and the proliferation of programs. Just because they wear the mantle of a teacher don't mean ****.

FWIW, I spoke to a very large number of orthodontists and orthodontists-in-training when I was trying to make my decision. The older orthodontists mostly love their gig while he younger ones were mostly gloomy and bitter. Many told me outright to forget about ortho and that "it is not what it is cracked to be." I think with the oversupply situation and the stagnating demand, the days that a young orthodontist can get his own brick-and-mortar is basically gone, except for maybe rural areas. Most likely what's waiting for them is either associating (and being exploited) by older orthos, used/abused by dental corps, and become a traveling orthodontist to GPs. To me, none of these sound particularly good especially with a 500k debt straight out most likely, not to mention likely three years of opportunity cost.

My take is that the golden age of ortho is over, or at least in a trough of a long cycle. The older ones love their gigs because they did it in a time when it was still favorable but many of them have little understanding in how the field has changed. The younger ones went in there thinking that either they are special or that they can get to where the older ones are easily but become disillusioned when they see the conditions.

150k for a new ortho sounds about right, but that's assuming you can find a position even. And taking into account the debt load, well, it's not much.

Shunwei,
Did you ever consider Endo?

 

[Shunwei]

Shunwei,
Did you ever consider Endo?

A little bit, endo is a good specialty for its low overhead. However, I was a bit concerned about the specialty due to the intrusion of implants, which I think has dampened endo somewhat because it at least offers a viable alternative, even though I think the specialty will always exist. I like performing root canals myself, I do a lot of them especially molars, and it is a good money-maker and you gain instant credibility and trust with patients after you get them out of pain with a RCT. The specialty is only two years, so it's a good deal, and many of hem pay a nominal stipend. Of all the dental specialties now, I would consider only OMFS and endo.

 

[Tooth]

I think it's worth saying that not everyone has to go into crazy debt to become an orthodontist. Military scholarships are available to pretty much anyone, deleting DS debt. Then, the Post 9/11 GI Bill will pay all tuition at any public school Orthodontics program if you can get in-state residency there. Believe it or not, there are Ortho programs that pay stipends too.

 

[Shunwei]

I think it's worth saying that not everyone has to go into crazy debt to become an orthodontist. Military scholarships are available to pretty much anyone, deleting DS debt. Then, the Post 9/11 GI Bill will pay all tuition at any public school Orthodontics program if you can get in-state residency there. Believe it or not, there are Ortho programs that pay stipends too.

Good point, you can do that, but everything comes at a trade off, in the military's case you trade in service and time, along with a lower salary compared to the private sector. Personally, I don't want to be controlled by anyone, but that's just me. And if I believe correctly, specialty spots in the military is very limited and competitive, so it's no certainty you can count on them to support you to do so; and then you owe them more time after that. And while some residencies pay a stipend, you almost have to borrow some additional money to survive. UCLA, for example, pays a 20k stipend last I heard but realistically no one can survive in the city with that amount, especially those with a family. So while the stipend saves you some money, you are still gonna increase your loans, not to mention the interest that keeps accruing in the residency period.

In the end, if you go the military route, I can see being chained to the military for 10-15 years before you are truly free to pursue what you want. I guess it's up to each individual to decide if the pros/cons of this road is worthwhile.

 

[Miley Cyrus.]

In the end, guys, most peoples decisions are guided by money and greed, not reason, especially the academia. People usually don't suspect the ivory tower as having their hands dirty with common, workaday matters, but schools often are the dirtiest of them all. Look no further than the tuition crisis and the proliferation of programs. Just because they wear the mantle of a teacher don't mean ****.

FWIW, I spoke to a very large number of orthodontists and orthodontists-in-training when I was trying to make my decision. The older orthodontists mostly love their gig while he younger ones were mostly gloomy and bitter. Many told me outright to forget about ortho and that "it is not what it is cracked to be." I think with the oversupply situation and the stagnating demand, the days that a young orthodontist can get his own brick-and-mortar is basically gone, except for maybe rural areas. Most likely what's waiting for them is either associating (and being exploited) by older orthos, used/abused by dental corps, and become a traveling orthodontist to GPs. To me, none of these sound particularly good especially with a 500k debt straight out most likely, not to mention likely three years of opportunity cost.

My take is that the golden age of ortho is over, or at least in a trough of a long cycle. The older ones love their gigs because they did it in a time when it was still favorable but many of them have little understanding in how the field has changed. The younger ones went in there thinking that either they are special or that they can get to where the older ones are easily but become disillusioned when they see the conditions.

150k for a new ortho sounds about right, but that's assuming you can find a position even. And taking into account the debt load, well, it's not much.

Whole heartedly agree with you. I consider academics to be some of the slimiest bunch (right up there with politicians). They all play up their position of 'teacher' and constantly vilify private practice docs. I particularly despise the ones in public health policy (Dr. Zeke Emanuel, the father of Obamacare, and Atul Gawande, a scum who made some dumb little checklist and eviscerates private practice docs: these 2 guys are the worst). It also extends into the 'human rights' professors, as well.

A little bit, endo is a good specialty for its low overhead. However, I was a bit concerned about the specialty due to the intrusion of implants, which I think has dampened endo somewhat because it at least offers a viable alternative, even though I think the specialty will always exist. I like performing root canals myself, I do a lot of them especially molars, and it is a good money-maker and you gain instant credibility and trust with patients after you get them out of pain with a RCT. The specialty is only two years, so it's a good deal, and many of hem pay a nominal stipend. Of all the dental specialties now, I would consider only OMFS and endo.

When I was starting out as a pre-dent in my 1st year I made the same conclusion: I think only OMFS and Endo are worth it when it comes to specializing. I talked to a lot of ppl who seemed very casual about threats to endo and didn't seem to think implants would be a threat at all. But it seems the technology has gotten better and better. I also feel like GPs will always take the easy RCT for themselves.

 

[Shunwei]

When I was starting out as a pre-dent in my 1st year I made the same conclusion: I think only OMFS and Endo are worth it when it comes to specializing. I talked to a lot of ppl who seemed very casual about threats to endo and didn't seem to think implants would be a threat at all. But it seems the technology has gotten better and better. I also feel like GPs will always take the easy RCT for themselves.

GPs absolutely take a lot of RCTs, and they should because 80% of the RCTs are indeed doable by GPs. Over the past two years by my count I have done more tha 600 endos and referred out 4. Every single one of the four I referred out have roots that bend 50 degrees or are so calcified that it will be too difficult for me. However, I have done well in the other endos and I think it is an excellent revenue maker and to gain trust with patients.

I believe implants has harmed endo a bit but I don't think it will be too much. Many people are convinced that they can just extract a tooth and then 'just get an implant later.' Whether they really do so aside, this attitude certainly makes it even more difficult to convince a pt to get the RCT/Bu/Crown that they really need. The fact that some endodontists are placing their implants is evidence of how implants have affected endos a bit.

 

[011110]

Ok so there's a lot of gloom and doom with being a new ortho. Are there any positives to it for someone debating applying this cycle?

 

[Silent Cool]

Ok so there's a lot of gloom and doom with being a new ortho. Are there any positives to it for someone debating applying this cycle?

-It's a chill, low-stress, easy job
-It has on average more career longevity than any other dental field (see my anecdotal post elsewhere on SDN re: an 82-yo orthodontist selling his practice)
-It's a fun job

 

[Firm]

-It's a chill, low-stress, easy job
-It has on average more career longevity than any other dental field (see my anecdotal post elsewhere on SDN re: an 82-yo orthodontist selling his practice)
-It's a fun job

It's only chill and low stress if you have enough patients that will pay a high enough fee to cover your overhead. All the things that you've described are for the orthodontist that graduated pre-1995ish. It will be a much different experience for future grads.

 

[Firm]

Firm,

How much would you say is the max one should owe for Ortho?
Also, how much would you guess most Orthos are earning in your general area?

thanx

~$300K student loans.

~The younger orthos under 40 are all working in corporations. Those corporations save money by hiring you only a few days a month and having multiple orthodontists so that their eggs aren't all in one basket. When I was working for a corporation I was able to only get 3-8 days/month worth of employment($50-150K). It fluctuated based on how busy the practice was or if another company needed someone for a day here and there. My income could easily double or get cut in half month to month at their whim. I have a friend that was making $300,000/year(for 3 years) in a remote area in the midwest but then they fire him and hired somebody cheaper (~$100,000) with zero notice. It was for this reason that I opened my own office. Well every dollar that I made at the corporation went directly into the start-up. It's like a no win situation. My advice is to keep a corporate job and live off of $30-40K/yr.

 

[charlestweed]

.... When I was working for a corporation I was able to only get 3-8 days/month worth of employment($50-150K). It fluctuated based on how busy the practice was or if another company needed someone for a day here and there....

That's a pretty good pay for working only 3-8 days/month. IMO, not being able to find a full time job is actually a good thing. This helps motivate (or force) the new grad to think about setting up his/her own office. When I graduated in the early 2000s, I worked full time for the chains and got paid 2-2.5x more than what many new grad GPs made. Because of the good salary and busy full time work schedule (22 days/month, 8hrs/day), I lost my focus on starting my own office. I didn't start my first office until 2006. If I struggled to find work at the beginning and only had a low pay P/T associate job, I would have started my own office a lot sooner than 2006. I really regret for not starting my own office right after graduation.

 

[Firm]

That's a pretty good pay for working only 3-8 days/month. IMO, not being able to find a full time job is actually a good thing. This helps motivate (or force) the new grad to think about setting up his/her own office. When I graduated in the early 2000s, I worked full time for the chains and got paid 2-2.5x more than what many new grad GPs made. Because of the good salary and busy full time work schedule (22 days/month, 8hrs/day), I lost my focus on starting my own office. I didn't start my first office until 2006. If I struggled to find work at the beginning and only had a low pay P/T associate job, I would have started my own office a lot sooner than 2006. I really regret for not starting my own office right after graduation.

Not really. I would have much rather worked full time and saved some money. The free time convinced me to open my own office because the grass looked greener and I had the time. You did the right thing. Cash is king.

 

[Shunwei]

Not really. I would have much rather worked full time and saved some money. The free time convinced me to open my own office because the grass looked greener and I had the time. You did the right thing. Cash is king.

You would also lose your edge and drive if you wait too long. People who are 5+ yrs out can easily get complacent and lose the drive to start ones own office and bear the initial hardship to get greater rewards in the end.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

No. You still have to figure out a way to open 2 practices. Nearly all of the orthodontists that I know under 45yo have either 2 locations or 1 location plus a corporate job. If you have more than $500K in debt, you'll be working for a corporation for a LONG time. Corporation work is usually contract work which means it's only for a few years and you never get a raise. As soon as they find someone cheaper to work, you're contract is not renewed.

Yes, It is worth it to pay that money. Don't forget you are going to become an orthodontist. Whether you got in by being traditional, connections, donations, pretty girl in the class that gets all the faculty to do her work for her, fellowship, do not forget you are going to be an ORTHODONTIST.And once you are an orthodontist, you have the potential to become a lot more. Not every general dentist could get into orthodontics (even if they paid), however every orthodontist could have been a general dentist.

There are students from my PG class that had friends going into general or settling for other specialties that would have paid generous donations in the millions to become an orthodontist, and their limiting factor was, they couldn't get in. So do not put a dollar value on the profession, its worth it if you control whether it is worth it.

The typical grouop of people who have gotten in feel like they are set for life, and when in PG a rude awakening hits when they have to start making life decisions. (daddy's practice, friend's practice, open up their own practice, or go the route described above).

This is most of the orthodontic candidates that graduated with me. Probably somewhere in the top 10 rank in their class, 90+ board score, went into undergrad, then straight to dental school, then straight to ortho, then during ortho residency, freak out about having to make a decision that comes with a lot of uncertainty because they have no life experience outside their goal of orthodontics. These residents went into corporate.

The successful ones spent extra time in residency doing extracurricular activities like learning the logistics and practice management concepts and started doing research on demographics, speaking to the right real estate lawyers, accountants so they could help open a practice coming right out of residency. Why would you go work for a corporate chain and help them make money? It's better to take a few hundred thousand more of a loan, even if you already owe $750k to start your own sole proprietor business.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

What's interesting is that Ortho used to be the hot specialty. @Shunwei has mentioned this before--that what was popular/hot 10-15 years back is now a much tougher specialty to break into, and the economic rewards have decreased: radically increased supply, and older orthos lingering in the market. This coupled with the absurd tuition many schools are charging-->a crappy market.

I think Pedo is the new Ortho.

Ortho is still a hot specialty. Probably not for the average orthodontist who relies on what others say/taught him/her in order to have a perspective. It's truly sad that these programs have been taking in a lot of bad apples in the last 5 years. I keep getting resume's sent to my offices of all of these fresh grads looking for work and if I didn't see their name on the top of the resume, they are all the same and going to end up in corporate.

Chains do a good thing for us private practice. It allows us to distinguish ourselves, and deliver much better quality treatment. Once you do a few cases your name starts to sell itself. and your ambition will dictate how much you will make.

So ask yourself, what does one do in a situation with no economic rewards, increased supply, older orthos?
DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

Pedo is not the new Ortho. They modified the medicaid guidelines last year and everywhere has been hit hard. and yes it affects the amount of patients we ca treat at our residency program.

The same thing is going to happen with peds. Peds has always been the same. Ortho just got worse and made peds appear more glorified.

What's interesting is that Ortho used to be the hot specialty. @Shunwei has mentioned this before--that what was popular/hot 10-15 years back is now a much tougher specialty to break into, and the economic rewards have decreased: radically increased supply, and older orthos lingering in the market. This coupled with the absurd tuition many schools are charging-->a crappy market.

I think Pedo is the new Ortho.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

I agree. And just look at Lutheran Medical and what these scamsters are doing to the pediatric residency positions in america. They have like 100+ different pediatric residencies, with like 20 spots each, and they open like 50 new residences each year lol. I heard the residents there aren't even taught by faculty: they just look at instructional videos on a TV lol.

These programs are good if their goal is to produce residents in general. That will just men more crappy peds out there that are crappy, and it will make the good ones stand out, capitalize, and thrive. It's like when we used to hope for curves in some courses. You need those students to do bad in order to bring down the curve.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

You would also lose your edge and drive if you wait too long. People who are 5+ yrs out can easily get complacent and lose the drive to start ones own office and bear the initial hardship to get greater rewards in the end.

I agree with this 100%. If there is a means to get money even after your loans for PG residency, find it and open a practice.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

That's a pretty good pay for working only 3-8 days/month. IMO, not being able to find a full time job is actually a good thing. This helps motivate (or force) the new grad to think about setting up his/her own office. When I graduated in the early 2000s, I worked full time for the chains and got paid 2-2.5x more than what many new grad GPs made. Because of the good salary and busy full time work schedule (22 days/month, 8hrs/day), I lost my focus on starting my own office. I didn't start my first office until 2006. If I struggled to find work at the beginning and only had a low pay P/T associate job, I would have started my own office a lot sooner than 2006. I really regret for not starting my own office right after graduation.

I agree.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

In the end, guys, most peoples decisions are guided by money and greed, not reason, especially the academia. People usually don't suspect the ivory tower as having their hands dirty with common, workaday matters, but schools often are the dirtiest of them all. Look no further than the tuition crisis and the proliferation of programs. Just because they wear the mantle of a teacher don't mean ****.

FWIW, I spoke to a very large number of orthodontists and orthodontists-in-training when I was trying to make my decision. The older orthodontists mostly love their gig while he younger ones were mostly gloomy and bitter. Many told me outright to forget about ortho and that "it is not what it is cracked to be." I think with the oversupply situation and the stagnating demand, the days that a young orthodontist can get his own brick-and-mortar is basically gone, except for maybe rural areas. Most likely what's waiting for them is either associating (and being exploited) by older orthos, used/abused by dental corps, and become a traveling orthodontist to GPs. To me, none of these sound particularly good especially with a 500k debt straight out most likely, not to mention likely three years of opportunity cost.

My take is that the golden age of ortho is over, or at least in a trough of a long cycle. The older ones love their gigs because they did it in a time when it was still favorable but many of them have little understanding in how the field has changed. The younger ones went in there thinking that either they are special or that they can get to where the older ones are easily but become disillusioned when they see the conditions.

150k for a new ortho sounds about right, but that's assuming you can find a position even. And taking into account the debt load, well, it's not much.

I believe money is a strong factor when making a decision to specialize into ortho or not. but you cannot put a dollar value on it to guide your decision.

If you can realistically vision being able to open up your own practice and thrive with a good business sense, you will be fine. Being a good orthodontist only helps with treatment, doesn't help with being a good business man. You will have to join tennis club, sponsor hockey teams, guest speak at events, all of which will help you as a person and therefore your practice, thrive. You have to be willing to change.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

~$300K student loans.

~The younger orthos under 40 are all working in corporations. Those corporations save money by hiring you only a few days a month and having multiple orthodontists so that their eggs aren't all in one basket. When I was working for a corporation I was able to only get 3-8 days/month worth of employment($50-150K). It fluctuated based on how busy the practice was or if another company needed someone for a day here and there. My income could easily double or get cut in half month to month at their whim. I have a friend that was making $300,000/year(for 3 years) in a remote area in the midwest but then they fire him and hired somebody cheaper (~$100,000) with zero notice. It was for this reason that I opened my own office. Well every dollar that I made at the corporation went directly into the start-up. It's like a no win situation. My advice is to keep a corporate job and live off of $30-40K/yr.

"keep a corporate job and live off $30-40/yr"

This is the type of advice that I get on here that upsets me. This is why you will always be surviving and never thriving. You lost so much potential earnings by working so long in these chains, barely making any money, and then finally opening your own office to start doing what you should have done in the first place?

Meh its good for the others. The more poor decisions made by these young orthodontists it will dictate how the profession is viewed as a whole.

I will take any transfer case from a chain, because I now after I am done with that treatment, it will be far superior. Things as small as the the perspective of a chain practicing orthodontist vs. a private practice orthodontist will make the qualitative factors dominating.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

You would also lose your edge and drive if you wait too long. People who are 5+ yrs out can easily get complacent and lose the drive to start ones own office and bear the initial hardship to get greater rewards in the end.

I agree 100%

 

[Silent Cool]

Yes, It is worth it to pay that money. Don't forget you are going to become an orthodontist. Whether you got in by being traditional, connections, donations, pretty girl in the class that gets all the faculty to do her work for her, fellowship, do not forget you are going to be an ORTHODONTIST.And once you are an orthodontist, you have the potential to become a lot more. Not every general dentist could get into orthodontics (even if they paid), however every orthodontist could have been a general dentist.

There are students from my PG class that had friends going into general or settling for other specialties that would have paid generous donations in the millions to become an orthodontist, and their limiting factor was, they couldn't get in. So do not put a dollar value on the profession, its worth it if you control whether it is worth it.

The typical grouop of people who have gotten in feel like they are set for life, and when in PG a rude awakening hits when they have to start making life decisions. (daddy's practice, friend's practice, open up their own practice, or go the route described above).

This is most of the orthodontic candidates that graduated with me. Probably somewhere in the top 10 rank in their class, 90+ board score, went into undergrad, then straight to dental school, then straight to ortho, then during ortho residency, freak out about having to make a decision that comes with a lot of uncertainty because they have no life experience outside their goal of orthodontics. These residents went into corporate.

The successful ones spent extra time in residency doing extracurricular activities like learning the logistics and practice management concepts and started doing research on demographics, speaking to the right real estate lawyers, accountants so they could help open a practice coming right out of residency. Why would you go work for a corporate chain and help them make money? It's better to take a few hundred thousand more of a loan, even if you already owe $750k to start your own sole proprietor business.

DamonSelfLigation,

Thanks for your response.

What would you say is a typical pre-tax income for a PP orthodontist in your area? How about yourself?

thanx

 

[011110]

Yes, It is worth it to pay that money. Don't forget you are going to become an orthodontist. Whether you got in by being traditional, connections, donations, pretty girl in the class that gets all the faculty to do her work for her, fellowship, do not forget you are going to be an ORTHODONTIST.And once you are an orthodontist, you have the potential to become a lot more. Not every general dentist could get into orthodontics (even if they paid), however every orthodontist could have been a general dentist.

There are students from my PG class that had friends going into general or settling for other specialties that would have paid generous donations in the millions to become an orthodontist, and their limiting factor was, they couldn't get in. So do not put a dollar value on the profession, its worth it if you control whether it is worth it.

The typical grouop of people who have gotten in feel like they are set for life, and when in PG a rude awakening hits when they have to start making life decisions. (daddy's practice, friend's practice, open up their own practice, or go the route described above).

This is most of the orthodontic candidates that graduated with me. Probably somewhere in the top 10 rank in their class, 90+ board score, went into undergrad, then straight to dental school, then straight to ortho, then during ortho residency, freak out about having to make a decision that comes with a lot of uncertainty because they have no life experience outside their goal of orthodontics. These residents went into corporate.

The successful ones spent extra time in residency doing extracurricular activities like learning the logistics and practice management concepts and started doing research on demographics, speaking to the right real estate lawyers, accountants so they could help open a practice coming right out of residency. Why would you go work for a corporate chain and help them make money? It's better to take a few hundred thousand more of a loan, even if you already owe $750k to start your own sole proprietor business.

Though some stuff I agree with your last quote on adding a couple hundred thousand on an already 750k loan is insane. Thinking you'll dig out quick from that is a pipe dream

 

[Silent Cool]

Though some stuff I agree with your last quote on adding a couple hundred thousand on an already 750k loan is insane. Thinking you'll dig out quick from that is a pipe dream

+1.

@DamonSelfLigation 's name is a tad suspicious (Damon brackets, anyone?), along with his paltry number of posts.

 

[Firm]

What's interesting is that Ortho used to be the hot specialty. @Shunwei has mentioned this before--that what was popular/hot 10-15 years back is now a much tougher specialty to break into, and the economic rewards have decreased: radically increased supply, and older orthos lingering in the market. This coupled with the absurd tuition many schools are charging-->a crappy market.

I think Pedo is the new Ortho.

I agree. I think that Pedo is the new Ortho right now but that will change in the next 10 years. They are accepting more pedos and Obamacare/Medicaid will reduce reimbursements. In the last 5-6 years we've doubled the number of pediatric dentists that have moved to my town. About 8 years ago, I tried to find a pediatric dentist to build an office with in order to save money. They all turned me down because they wanted to "go it alone" and not affilate themselves with an orthodontist. Now many of them are struggling because they opened in still developing sections of town that were affected most by the housing crash. In the future, Joint Pedo/Ortho is best for both specialties even though the pediatric dentists don't see the benefit from the relationship.

 

[Firm]

Yes, It is worth it to pay that money. Don't forget you are going to become an orthodontist. Whether you got in by being traditional, connections, donations, pretty girl in the class that gets all the faculty to do her work for her, fellowship, do not forget you are going to be an ORTHODONTIST.And once you are an orthodontist, you have the potential to become a lot more. Not every general dentist could get into orthodontics (even if they paid), however every orthodontist could have been a general dentist.

There are students from my PG class that had friends going into general or settling for other specialties that would have paid generous donations in the millions to become an orthodontist, and their limiting factor was, they couldn't get in. So do not put a dollar value on the profession, its worth it if you control whether it is worth it.

The typical grouop of people who have gotten in feel like they are set for life, and when in PG a rude awakening hits when they have to start making life decisions. (daddy's practice, friend's practice, open up their own practice, or go the route described above).

This is most of the orthodontic candidates that graduated with me. Probably somewhere in the top 10 rank in their class, 90+ board score, went into undergrad, then straight to dental school, then straight to ortho, then during ortho residency, freak out about having to make a decision that comes with a lot of uncertainty because they have no life experience outside their goal of orthodontics. These residents went into corporate.

The successful ones spent extra time in residency doing extracurricular activities like learning the logistics and practice management concepts and started doing research on demographics, speaking to the right real estate lawyers, accountants so they could help open a practice coming right out of residency. Why would you go work for a corporate chain and help them make money? It's better to take a few hundred thousand more of a loan, even if you already owe $750k to start your own sole proprietor business.

Orthodontist is just a name. Great, you earned another degree or certificate but it really doesn't mean much in the real world unless you apply it. To tell these students that "It's better to take a few hundred thousand more of a loan, even if you already owe $750k to start your own sole proprietor business" is just reckless advice. With $3-5000 in student loan payments per month, what bank is going to loan them money to open a practice? If a bank does loan them money, how are they going to pay off the $3-4000/mo practice loan on top of that? Then add a minimum of $3000/mo/pp in payroll. That's $9-15,000/mo with out seeing your first patient. You go work for a corporate chain because they have patients. You can make money day one out of school.

 

[Firm]

"keep a corporate job and live off $30-40/yr"

This is the type of advice that I get on here that upsets me. This is why you will always be surviving and never thriving. You lost so much potential earnings by working so long in these chains, barely making any money, and then finally opening your own office to start doing what you should have done in the first place?

Meh its good for the others. The more poor decisions made by these young orthodontists it will dictate how the profession is viewed as a whole.

I will take any transfer case from a chain, because I now after I am done with that treatment, it will be far superior. Things as small as the the perspective of a chain practicing orthodontist vs. a private practice orthodontist will make the qualitative factors dominating.

So saving money and waiting for the right opportunity to present itself is surviving and never thriving. Ahhh ok.