PhD/PsyD LMHC to Phd

[TORIAmist]

In order to be licensed as a LMHC you need 3ooo hrs of supervision ---to sit for the test to be licensed. (that's about 2 years)-- Is there anyone out there who is currently in the PHd program who obtained their license for LMHC or is in the process of it?-- There are a lot of people who are LMHC, PhD--- I am wondering how in the world did they obtain it in terms of time-- How did they manage to go to into Phd program while trying to obtain that license? because from what I know--- when you are in your Phd program you don't have the time and most programs do not allow it. How old were you when you started phd program and did you apply right after your MS.ED for counseling.

----- Also there's some people that think obtaining LMHC is not worth it if eventually you are going to get phd- I disagree-- there's some jobs that look for LMHC and not phd (psychologist) -- but I do not know the reason why-- does any one know why?? I mean if that was the case there wouldn't be professionals out there who got both--

---

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[deleted343839]

----- Also there's some people that think obtaining LMHC is not worth it if eventually you are going to get phd- I disagree-- there's some jobs that look for LMHC and not phd (psychologist) -- but I do not know the reason why--

Money. Psychologists are more expensive.

Not all LMHC/PhD's have PhDs in psychology, by the way.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

For the PhD in counseling after already having your MA in counseling you do not have to do practicum, internship, or dissertation. It is mostly administration classes and you continue to work under your LPC license and you aren't eligible for psychologist license. They can't use psychology or psychologist on their advertising. I've heard from patients that some PhD LPC refer to themselves as Dr ? Psychologist but they can have ethics violations if the are advertised or use the title of psychologist in written format.

Psychology and counseling normally have different licensing boards and are considered different professions.

 

[futureapppsy2]

For the PhD in counseling after already having your MA in counseling you do not have to do practicum, internship, or dissertation. It is mostly administration classes and you continue to work under your LPC license and you aren't eligible for psychologist license. They can't use psychology or psychologist on their advertising. I've heard from patients that some PhD LPC refer to themselves as Dr ? Psychologist but they can have ethics violations if the are advertised or use the title of psychologist in written format.

Psychology and counseling normally have different licensing boards and are considered different professions.

That is not true--all PhD programs should require a dissertation and all legitimate counseling PhDs I've seen require "advanced practica" for students and/or a clinical supervision internship.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah, Counseling PhD programs that I have seen do indeed require practica, dissertations, and internship as well. I also review several dozen counseling apps a year for internship and postdoc, they have all of these things. Fact check before posting please.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

I believe you are confusing counseling psychology and counseling. Counseling PhD are licensed by LPC Boards and typically the MA degree is the terminal degree so they do not need additional practicum or internship as they are already licensed by the LPC board. Normally they aren't in the same department if at the same university.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I believe you are confusing counseling psychology and counseling. Counseling PhD are licensed by LPC Boards and typically the MA degree is the terminal degree so they do not need additional practicum or internship as they are already licensed by the LPC board. Normally they aren't in the same department if at the same university.

No, I'm talking about Counseling PhD programs, not Counseling Psychology PhD programs.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

For the PhD in Counselor Education, some have practicum, internship and dissertation but many do not. I have friends who went to UNO for the PhD in Counselor Education and from what I was told they did not have practicum or internship as they were already licensed as LPC. They had a research project but it was similar to a MA thesis or research project as most MA counseling programs do not require a thesis. At the U of Arkansas and UNT they have limited practicum and most do the internship at their current job where they work as LPC's and they cannot obtain licensure as a Psychologist.

I believe if you have already completed practicum, three-years of supervision, and are licensed as an LPC that you are not required to take additional practicum or do an internship as you are already licensed as an LPC. It may be that students who are not licensed as LPC have to do practicum and internship but most who go into these programs are already licensed as LPC.

If a student has already met the 100 hour practicum and the 600 hour internship at the MA level and they are licensed as LPC they do not have to do these over during the PhD phase. Some programs have a dissertation but others do not have the dissertation.

Rather than having practicum most have a one hour class on supervision of practicum for their MA level students and they supervise these student practicum and internship hours rather than the PhD student having practicum.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Yeah, Counseling PhD programs that I have seen do indeed require practica, dissertations, and internship as well. I also review several dozen counseling apps a year for internship and postdoc, they have all of these things. Fact check before posting please.

Why are you reviewing application for LPC licensed applicants if you are working as a neuropsychologist? I believe you are reviewing PhD counseling psychologist applicants. They are not the same and LPC and Psychologists are different professions with different requirements including licensure boards.

 

[WisNeuro]

I was assuming a Counseling PhD degree, since that is what the OP referenced in their original post. Especially considering that LMHC are predominantly masters level degrees outside of some pastoral counseling degrees.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Counseling PhD normally means Counselor Education PhD and this is different than Counseling Psychologist PhD. Counseling Educator PhD are under LPC license and not under psychologist license. However a few were grandfathered in and have both LPC and psychologist license.

I have both LPC-S license and Psychologist license and believe me when I say I know the difference. PhD in counseling is under LPC board and PhD in counseling psychology is under psychology board unless they were grandfathered in with their MS or PhD counseling degree.

 

[WisNeuro]

All good and dandy, I was referring to the OP when they specified psychologist in their original post.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Counseling PhD normally means Counselor Education PhD and this is different than Counseling Psychologist PhD. Counseling Educator PhD are under LPC license and not under psychologist license. However a few were grandfathered in and have both LPC and psychologist license.

I have both LPC-S license and Psychologist license and believe me when I say I know the difference. PhD in counseling is under LPC board and PhD in counseling psychology is under psychology board unless they were grandfathered in with their MS or PhD counseling degree.

Yes, no one is arguing that the licenses are different. However, I'm just saying that I've never seen a reputable Counselor Ed/Counseling PhD program that didn't require a dissertation and either an advanced clinical practicum or a clinical supervision practicum (or both). They could well exist, but I would find such a program rather questionable and question its value as a doctoral program if it didn't require a dissertation, tbh.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Accredited PhD program through CACREP at the doctoral level indicate counselor supervision practicum but if the student has already met the licensure requirement or are an LPC they don't have to do a experiential practicum or internship. I was in a counseling MS program and the doctoral students taught and supervised the MS students practicum. They did have a dissertation but normally completed in one semester and they had one or two research classes. The PhD in counseling is mostly for development of teaching skills to be a faculty member in a MS counseling program.

There are only 68 accredited programs and only around 10-15 of those are EdD or PhD programs.

 

[G Costanza]

Accredited PhD program through CACREP at the doctoral level indicate counselor supervision practicum but if the student has already met the licensure requirement or are an LPC they don't have to do a experiential practicum or internship.

I was just reading the CACREP standards for PhD programs and it mandates a 100 hour practicum and 600 hour internship. No where did I see anything about having the option to meet those requirements as part of a masters program. Do you have a citation for that?

I have an MA from a CACREP program. I'm currently in a counseling psych doc program that shares a department with a CACREP accredited counselor education doc program. Anecdotally, everyone in the counselor education doc program that I know has an LPC and will complete multiple practica, an internship, and a dissertation.

I have a hard time imagining CACREP being okay with folks earning an accredited PhD and all training involving practica, internship, or research can be transferred from a masters program. If that's true, I might as well earn another PhD simply by taking a few classes.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

I agree with needing advanced practicum, internship, and dissertation. There aren't many PhD programs in Counseling as the MA is the terminal degree for LPC license.

Many of the PhD in Counseling have been set up for online training such as Oregon State and others. There is limited utility to get the doctoral degree as MA is the Licensure credential for LPC.

The folks I have known did not have to do practicum or internship when they got the PhD in Counseling and they are still working under their LPC license. Anyway a 100 hour practicum and 600 hour internship is minimal standards and the three years of supervision is where they get their experience before being fully licensed as a LPC. The NCC exam is easy. Are you going to make LPC do all this over? No they are waived if they already have met the LPC license requirements.

 

[G Costanza]

Isn't that why most counseling PhD pracs and internships are geared towards teaching and supervision...something you would not do while working towards LPC licensure? I believe that's written in the CACREP requirements for a PhD. It sounds like we agree on what it should look like but you're saying you can get a counselor education PhD without any hands on training in either supervision or teaching? Again, I have a hard time imagining CACREP has it set up that way.

Did you find that source that states all prac, internship, and thesis work done while earning an MA/MS satisfies the PhD requirements in those areas?

 

[G Costanza]

https://www.ecu.edu/cs-acad/gcc/upload/CACREP-Standards.doc

Above is a link to CACREP standards for both masters of doc level programs. It states that all students admitted into a doc program must have completed all the requirements for a CACREP masters program...including practica and internship. Under the Professional Practice requirements for Doctoral Studies it states,

"CLINICAL EXPERIENCE

A.Doctoral students are required to participate in a supervised advanced practicum in counseling as part of the doctoral program. The nature of the advanced practicum experience is to be determined in consultation with program faculty and/or a doctoral committee.

B.Doctoral students are required to complete doctoral-level counseling internships that total minimum of 600 clock hours. The 600 hours include supervised experiences in clinical practice, supervision, research, and/or teaching. The internship includes most of the activities of a regularly employed professional in the setting. The 600 hours can be allocated at the discretion of the doctoral advisor and student, based on experience and training. Students should be given the opportunity to participate in additional supervised practica or internships that are appropriate to their career objectives.

C.During practica and internships, the student must receive weekly individual and/or triadic supervision; this supervision is usually performed by a supervisor with a doctorate in counselor education or a related profession. Group supervision is provided on a regular schedule with other students throughout the internship and is usually performed by a program faculty member."

So why would they require students have the masters level requirements completed to even be admitted into the program and then have an additional section within the doc requirements for prac and internship? It even states, "doctoral level counseling internships". If what you're saying is true, every doc student would already have met those requirements.

Where in the document I posted does it say masters requirements waive doc requirements? If anything they go out of their way to say that it doesn't count and is completely separate.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

The folks I have known just continue working at their LPC job and it counts for their internship. The CACREP indicated advanced practicum developed with advisor. Well one of my friends who went back to get his PhD at UNO was the Clinical Director of a TBI/Rehabilitation unit at LSU Med in NO where they had Residents and Psychology interns rotating through his unit ever semester through LSU. Another friend was the director of counseling at Dillard University where they had intern every year. So, do you tell them they need to do additional practicum and internship? No they just keep working at their job. They both did MS thesis in their MS clinical Psychology programs at NSU and they counted those thesis as their dissertations. They both finished up in the 90 so UNO could be different now.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Here is the Penn State curriculum for PhD in Counseling. It is suppose to be either the top rated programs or consistently one of the top rated programs. They have 3 hours of practicum, 3 hours of doctoral career practicum, and 3 hours of internship with an optional dissertation or electives as determined by student and advisor. Dissertation is not required. They have what is called a 3 hour teaching internship where students co-teach a class with a faculty member. 30 of the hours are counted from requirement of having a MS degree in counseling and the doctoral sequence is 66 hours. So, if your MA practicum and internship are agreed to be sufficient by your supervisor they do not need repeated but you have to complete a doctoral career practicum.

Prerequisites and Program Requirements

Prerequisites

Related master's degree
Applicants should possess a master’s degree in counseling or a related field containing at least the following courses or their equivalents:

Group Counseling

Counseling Theory and Method

Career Development and Counseling

Individual Counseling Skills and Procedures

Multicultural Counseling

Use of Assessments in Counseling

Research in Counseling

Evidence of coursework addressing human growth and development, as well as the professional identity of counselors.

Counseling experiences in the form of supervised practicum and internship.

Relevant experience
Because the program is designed for individuals who assume responsibility for supervising and/or training counselors, experience provides the foundation for further professional development. Amount, type, and degree of applicant experience in professional counseling and/or related experience will be closely evaluated for admission.

A deficiency in one or more of the above course content areas must be made up by the time of the candidacy examination. These courses may not be used to fulfill any of the remaining doctoral degree core course requirements. The Graduate School will grant 30 credits from the master’s degree toward the doctoral program.



Course Requirements

Counselor Education Core Requirements (36 credits)
CNED 502 Advanced Counseling Theory (3 cr.)
CNED 554 Multicultural Counseling (3 cr.)
CNED 555 Career Counseling (3 cr.)
CNED 580 Foundations: History & Trends (3 cr.)
CNED 581 Professional Issues (3 cr.)
CNED 582 Advanced Group Psychotherapy (3 cr.)
CNED 589 Seminar on Counseling Supervision (3 cr.)
CNED 595D Supervision of Counselors (3 cr.)
CNED 595I Teaching Internship (3 cr.)*
CNED 595K Counseling Internship (3 cr.)*
CNED 595P Counseling Practicum (3 cr.)*
CNED 595P.2 Doctoral Practicum in Career Counseling (3 cr.)*

*Students are required to keep a log documenting their practicum and internship hours.

Empirical Foundations (15 credits)
A minimum of 15 post-master’s credits will be devoted to enhancing competence in conducting research and evaluating programs. The following three topics must be covered: quantitative research methods, qualitative research methods, research seminar. Program evaluation is an optional study area which can be taken to enhance overall skill set if desired. Students are welcome to take any courses that fulfill the topic requirements. Students should check the PSU website to see when and how often these courses are offered.
1. Quantitative research methods (6 credits minimum)
2. Qualitative research methods (3 credits minimum)
3. Research seminar- CNED 594 (3 credits minimum)
4. Program evaluation (3 credits) (optional)
Graduate courses carry numbers from 500-599 and 800-899. Advanced undergraduate courses numbered between 400 and 499 may be used to meet some graduate degree requirements. Courses below 400 level may not.

Minor Area of Study (15 credits)
A minimum of 15 master’s and post-master’s credits will need to be completed in a group of general studies or a specific discipline (e.g., psychology, gerontology) outside of Counselor Education. These courses should be chosen to complement one’s counseling specialty area in a meaningful way and will be approved by the student’s committee chair/adviser. At least one faculty member from the minor area must be on the student’s doctoral committee.

Dissertation (variable credits)
To ensure that students have met the 96 total credits required by CACREP and to remain continuously registered per Graduate School requirements, students may complete dissertation or elective credits. Students should discuss these options with their academic adviser to see which is their best option. Students will develop and implement a dissertation research project designed to generate new knowledge for the counseling profession.


Total Credits Required
36: CNED Core Requirements
15: Empirical Foundations
15: Minor Area of Study
66: Subtotal
30: Plus Master’s credits
96: TOTAL CREDITS

COUNSELOR EDUCATION

 

[futureapppsy2]

OND, you are reading that very incorrectly.

That doesn't say that a dissertation is optional; it says that the credits you take for it may vary, but that you have to have 96 total credits. Also, the internships aren't optional--the course listed there are *required*. See the bottom line where it says that all CNED rcourses (including internships) are required, as well as the 15 research credits, and the 15 minor credits, and then 30 credit hours from the masters are counted *on top* of those 66 hours.

What the 30 hours is is an administrative thing for the grad school--i.e., the grad school requires that all PhDs have X credits regardless of field and the 30 masters hours count toward that. They don't allow you to waive the required courses, including the internship courses.

 

[G Costanza]

First you said you don't need a practicum or internship to get a CACREP PhD in counseling.

Accredited PhD program through CACREP at the doctoral level indicate counselor supervision practicum but if the student has already met the licensure requirement or are an LPC they don't have to do a experiential practicum or internship.

Then you said the folks you know did not do a practicum or internship because the requirement was waived.

The folks I have known did not have to do practicum or internship when they got the PhD in Counseling and they are still working under their LPC license. Anyway a 100 hour practicum and 600 hour internship is minimal standards and the three years of supervision is where they get their experience before being fully licensed as a LPC. The NCC exam is easy. Are you going to make LPC do all this over? No they are waived if they already have met the LPC license requirements.

Now you're saying they are in fact doing practicums and internships through their existing employment.

The folks I have known just continue working at their LPC job and it counts for their internship.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here but it's not appropriate to be making false blanket statements about a degree. People are going to read this stuff with the authority that comes with your title and assume it's legitimate. If you have a CACREP accredited PhD, you will have completed a practicum and internship (and received weekly supervision even with a terminal license). I don't know why you would want to minimize someone's degree. I'm sure you worked very hard to become a neuropsychologist and wouldn't appreciate someone stating that you never had to have a practicum or internship as part of your training.

In other news...Game of Thrones is on and I really want to see some dragons.

 

[futureapppsy2]

First you said you don't need a practicum or internship to get a CACREP PhD in counseling.



Then you said the folks you know did not do a practicum or internship.



Now you're saying they are in fact doing practicums and internships through their existing employment.



I'm not trying to be a jerk here but it's not appropriate to be making false blanket statements about a degree. People are going to read this stuff with the authority that comes with your title and assume it's legitimate. If you have a CACREP accredited PhD, you will have completed a practicum and internship (and received weekly supervision even with a terminal licensed). I don't know why you would want to minimize someone's degree. I'm sure you worked very hard to become a neuropsychologist and wouldn't appreciate someone stating that you never had to have a practicum or internship as part of your training.

In other news...Game of Thrones is on and I really want to see some dragons.

Well said. I'm in a counseling PhD program, and, while there are valid critiques of the training (as there in psychology training), please don't just make stuff up that blatantly isn't true.

(Also, dragons? I'm more interested in seeing Tyrion (and Sansa), tbh. )

For those curious, my program requires (apart from our coursework):
-a clinical supervision internship
-a 600+ hour clinical internship or an administrative internship (e.g., training development)
-a publishable first author systematic lit review or meta
-a publishable first author manuscript separate from the above (can be theoretical but de facto, everyone on faculty requires it to be empirical)
-a pre-dissertation research project as lead investigator (the publishable empirical paper often comes from this)
-participation in writing a federal grant
-teaching a class as instructor of record
-a first author national conference presentation (posters don't count)
-an empirical dissertation (duh)

Personally, I wish we required a clinical internship, although I understand the theory behind letting students do an administrative one if they have a lot of post-masters clinical experience. FWIW, I've tried to get more clinical experience then we are required to and to get more research/publishing experience as well. However, I do think our requirements are pretty substantial (and clearly designed to prepare us to be faculty, even though around 30-40% of our grads go into administration).

 

[SoCloseYetSoFarAway]

In order to be licensed as a LMHC you need 3ooo hrs of supervision ---to sit for the test to be licensed. (that's about 2 years)-- Is there anyone out there who is currently in the PHd program who obtained their license for LMHC or is in the process of it?-- There are a lot of people who are LMHC, PhD--- I am wondering how in the world did they obtain it in terms of time-- How did they manage to go to into Phd program while trying to obtain that license? because from what I know--- when you are in your Phd program you don't have the time and most programs do not allow it. How old were you when you started phd program and did you apply right after your MS.ED for counseling.

----- Also there's some people that think obtaining LMHC is not worth it if eventually you are going to get phd- I disagree-- there's some jobs that look for LMHC and not phd (psychologist) -- but I do not know the reason why-- does any one know why?? I mean if that was the case there wouldn't be professionals out there who got both--

I have an MA in Counseling and started my doctoral program immediately after completion of my Master's degree. After consulting with a Board member in my state, I opted to not obtain my LAC/LPC/LMHC. The time and money to maintain two licenses in the future was not worth the hassle for me. I knew I only was going to eventually practice with my psychology license.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Penn State also has a Counseling Psychology PhD that fulfills the requirements for licensure as a psychologist. It is APA accredited but they are no longer accepting students as they are closing the Counseling Psychology program.

If you are in a Counseling program that only requires a 100 hour practicum and a 600 hour internship you will not be eligible for psychologist licensure in any state that I am aware of and you will have to get an LPC license. What happens when you apply for psychologist licensure, you are denied and if the state has MS licensure or LPC licensure you will have to go that route. So, basically why get the PhD in counseling as it does not enable you for doctoral level licensure and you will be teaching or doing administrative work. The folks I have known who have gone the PhD in Counseling are still working under their LPC license. I had enrolled in a PhD Counseling program but I decided it would not help me career wise, so I completed a doctoral clinical psychology program, an APA accredited psychology internship, and I am completing a two-year clinical neuropsychology postdoc.

A PhD in Counseling is under CACREP and LPC licensure Board and a PhD in Counseling Psychology is under APA and Psychologist licensure Board. If you have the PhD in Counseling you are restricted from using the title Psychologist or anything with the word Psychology in your advertisements and business cards. It would have been much easier for me to get the PhD in Counseling but I decided it was not worth it in the long run. My doctorate in clinical psychology took me seven-years and then the internship and I am now a licensed Psychologist and I only use my LPC-S license for supervision of LPC practicum or interns. My postdoc supervisor was an MSW for twenty years before returning to complete his doctorate in psychology so he is now both a LCSW and a Licensed Psychologist. He only uses his LCSW for supervising other MSW. I do not plan on giving up my LPC-S license as I did this for 20 years before returning for my doctorate in clinical psychology.

 

[TORIAmist]

I have an MA in Counseling and started my doctoral program immediately after completion of my Master's degree. After consulting with a Board member in my state, I opted to not obtain my LAC/LPC/LMHC. The time and money to maintain two licenses in the future was not worth the hassle for me. I knew I only was going to eventually practice with my psychology license.

--Ohh~~ Right~Time and Money. That was what I was thinking- Doing what you did-- apply right away for PhD but then at the same time that would mean another 5 to 6 (or more) years of no work=no income. Please mentor be for a bit~ because I need to decide now (in order to get ready) if I should or shouldn't~

--How was it for you in terms of financial issues? Were you at least able to work on the side while in your phd program. (what kind of part time work did you do; if any?)
-- Because initially, (this is if I get in) -- what I was thinking and hoping was to do phd program while working towards getting the LMHC license; which at this point, according to 99% of students in the program say it is impossible (and school doesn't allow that anyways)-- do you agree? or is this true?
-- And also I've read blogs saying it is very hard to obtain a job with a Phd (in terms of tenure track professor positions) -- and a lot of insurance gears towards the LMHC and MSW instead of a psychologists. Is this true or do you agree? How is the job market for you? or what have you heard?
-- And what do you most like or dislike about doing phd? And how old are you (if you dont mind me asking) when you started it and ended it?

 

[TORIAmist]

I got my masters and then lmhc a couple years later. Then once I got my lmhc applied for PhD programs. And now will be starting a PhD program at 30. I wouldn't have spent the years getting licensed if I knew for sure I would be going back for my PhD but that's where life led me. Now that I'm facing a $400 fee to transfer my license to a new state I'm not even sure I'll do that.

And yes- a job would want an lmhc vs PhD because they can pay less and you wouldn't be able to get paid as an lmhc and do doctorate level things. Some positions don't need you to do doctorate level things so they will only pay for a masters level. They may hire a few masters level clinician for one PhD.

So if you have both LMHC and PHD-- and you apply for a position for LMHC then you get paid for that level even if you have phd? right? Or do they not hire you because you have a PHD? because what if there is a job you want and they find that you have both and they feel that you might ask for more money later becuase you have phd so they decide to opt you out-- is this a possible scenario?

Do you regret obtaining both your LMHC and PHD license?
What were some pros and cons of having both?
Did you practice more after obtaining your LMHC or did you apply or phd right after you got your license? because I am assuming you worked with a permit for about 2 yrs before obtaining it-- but after you obtained it -- did you practice more?

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

From my experience as an LPC you are basically stuck at MS salary range in the 40-50 thousand range unless you do admin/ teaching and this is primarily why they have the PhD option. You won't be able to use the title of psychologist even if you get the PhD in Counseling or Counselor Education.

They are the same license under CACREP at MS or PhD in Counseling since LPC is set up for a terminal MA license with no research or thesis for the degree.

 

[SoCloseYetSoFarAway]

--Ohh~~ Right~Time and Money. That was what I was thinking- Doing what you did-- apply right away for PhD but then at the same time that would mean another 5 to 6 (or more) years of no work=no income. Please mentor be for a bit~ because I need to decide now (in order to get ready) if I should or shouldn't~

--How was it for you in terms of financial issues? Were you at least able to work on the side while in your phd program. (what kind of part time work did you do; if any?)
-- Because initially, (this is if I get in) -- what I was thinking and hoping was to do phd program while working towards getting the LMHC license; which at this point, according to 99% of students in the program say it is impossible (and school doesn't allow that anyways)-- do you agree? or is this true?
-- And also I've read blogs saying it is very hard to obtain a job with a Phd (in terms of tenure track professor positions) -- and a lot of insurance gears towards the LMHC and MSW instead of a psychologists. Is this true or do you agree? How is the job market for you? or what have you heard?
-- And what do you most like or dislike about doing phd? And how old are you (if you dont mind me asking) when you started it and ended it?

Financially, it was not terrible. I had scholarships and worked my entire 1st year. I worked as an unlicensed therapist under supervision for a private company. The perk of having the terminal degree opens up more jobs for you so you do not necessarily have to be an RA. If you are planning on accumulating hours for LMHC, I think you need to check on the licensure requirements in your state to evaluate if it's worth it. Where I am, only board approved supervisors can supervise for LMHC hours. With this in mind, this is hard to fulfill so it really wasn't even feasible for me even if I wanted to.

I cannot fully answer the insurance/job market question as I am still on internship. One of the licensed psychologists on this forum may be better equipped to respond to this. I think one thing to consider is if you intend to enter into specialized fields after completion of your PhD. Job market/demand may vary according to specialty.

My background was in science and research so I really felt like moving forward with my doctoral degree was more beneficial than staying with the terminal degree. Since I am on a neuropsychology trajectory, it really provided a good balance of my interests. I started the program in my late 20s, and I am now in my early 30s

 

[smalltownpsych]

In order to be licensed as a LMHC you need 3ooo hrs of supervision ---to sit for the test to be licensed. (that's about 2 years)-- Is there anyone out there who is currently in the PHd program who obtained their license for LMHC or is in the process of it?-- There are a lot of people who are LMHC, PhD--- I am wondering how in the world did they obtain it in terms of time-- How did they manage to go to into Phd program while trying to obtain that license? because from what I know--- when you are in your Phd program you don't have the time and most programs do not allow it. How old were you when you started phd program and did you apply right after your MS.ED for counseling.

----- Also there's some people that think obtaining LMHC is not worth it if eventually you are going to get phd- I disagree-- there's some jobs that look for LMHC and not phd (psychologist) -- but I do not know the reason why-- does any one know why?? I mean if that was the case there wouldn't be professionals out there who got both--

Most licensed counselors have masters degrees. The few that have a doctorate that I have known did it for a questionable reason. A licensed psychologist is a very challenging and skilled role that has stringent requirements. Becoming a licensed counselor is much easier. It is like the difference between a nurse practitioner and an MD.

 

[deleted343839]

Exactly. If an LMHC goes on to get a PhD but his/her license, scope of practice, job activities, etc. remain the same afterward, then I'm not sure what the point of the PhD would be. The counseling PhD is an entry path into academia or administration, not a higher-level clinical credential. A psychology PhD would represent a fundamental career change.

 

[Goobernut]

It is like the difference between a nurse practitioner and an MD.

This. I really think this is one of the best ways to conceptualize the difference.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

This. I really think this is one of the best ways to conceptualize the difference.

In 2017 ANP will become a doctoral degree license but current ANP will be grandfathered at sunset when the new regulations are in effect.

There is some speculation that the LPC and LMFT license will become a doctoral degree license eventually or this is what is happening in the state I live in. There is a surplus of LPC to the point that many positions are low paying with limited opportunity for increasing income.

LMSW, LPC, and MFT licenses may all be doctoral degree license in the near future.

School Psychologist require an EdS degree or MS degree plus 30-40 additional hours plus a one-year internship so this might as well be changed to a doctoral degree rather than an EdS degree as the standards are almost equivalent.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Gotta love degree inflation…..

 

[Chalupacabra]

School Psychologist require an EdS degree or MS degree plus 30-40 additional hours plus a one-year internship so this might as well be changed to a doctoral degree rather than an EdS degree as the standards are almost equivalent.

Three years versus five to seven. I'd say that's a considerable difference.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Most EdS school psych programs are now 78-85 hour and takes four year and then year internship. Only difference between PhD is no dissertation. Many Ms counseling degrees are now 60-65 hour programs.

 

[Chalupacabra]

Most EdS school psych programs are now 78-85 hour and takes four year and then year internship. Only difference between PhD is no dissertation. Many Ms counseling degrees are now 60-65 hour programs.

As a current school psych student this has not been my experience at all. Even those people I've met who are in higher credit programs just take more summer courses. I've never heard of a non-doctoral SP program outside the 2+1 model before or since beginnning my training. While these programs may exist I think you're greatly overestimating their prevalence. Your post made me a curious and after a dozen or so clicks on NASP approved programs I didn't find a single EdS program that matches your description - and if they do exist I can't imagine why anyone would choose one.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

A number of EdS School Psych programs have included a number of Counseling courses allowing licensure as LPC and certification in school psych. TWU lets student take 4 courses in neuropsychology for a 76 hour program.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Texas also has clinicians pretending to be neuropsychologists ("school neuropsychologist"). I'm not sure they are s great example.

 

[Chalupacabra]

The idea of combining a LPC/school psych credential makes a lot of sense, since non-doctoral SP licensure is only allowed in a small handful of states. I'd only heard of programs popping up that allowed people with an existing credential like school counselors and school psychs to get an LMHC with some additional training.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

BYU EdS is 73-85 credits if you take optional credits. UNC EdS is a 72 hour program. KU EdS and PhD students take the same courses the first three years and the PhD go one-two more years and do a dissertation.

 

[Goobernut]

In 2017 ANP will become a doctoral degree license but current ANP will be grandfathered at sunset when the new regulations are in effect.

There is some speculation that the LPC and LMFT license will become a doctoral degree license eventually or this is what is happening in the state I live in. There is a surplus of LPC to the point that many positions are low paying with limited opportunity for increasing income.

LMSW, LPC, and MFT licenses may all be doctoral degree license in the near future.

School Psychologist require an EdS degree or MS degree plus 30-40 additional hours plus a one-year internship so this might as well be changed to a doctoral degree rather than an EdS degree as the standards are almost equivalent.

So, because I'm lazy and don't feel like googling to factcheck this, could you please provide proof of the NP programs moving to doctoral level in 2017? Perhaps a link to a nursing NP program that describes the changes to their program to meet this 2017 standards in two short years? Last year I worked with nursing education professors, and have a friend who is currently a nursing professor and there are no plans at her school to make their NP program doctoral level by 2017. I would just like to see evidence this is actually happening OTHER than the 2006 task force report.

It's not LMSW license I believe you are referring to. It's LCSW. There are no whisperings to have LCSW moved to a doctoral degree. We have had the DSW since the 70s and is been very unpopular for a while. PhD in social work is reserved for educators, usually. It's more complicated than that actually, but I won't go into the boring details ha. For clinical purposes the masters is it.

Could you please link what School Psych programs require the +30 and a year internship? Generally they are at most a 60 degree and require supervision/hours just like all the other licenses do.

*edit -- I see where you added the schools OneNeuro. Those are option programs, not required right? Just to clarify.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

It is suppose to begin in 2015 per recommendations from the AANC and here is a link:

http://nurse-practitioners-and-phys...Practice-Center/DNP-Articles/DNP-by-2015.aspx

My SW friends at UTA doctoral SW program had indicated when I went through supervision training the need for increasing the standards for SW with some input directed towards doctoral training.

 

[Chalupacabra]

BYU EdS is 73-85 credits if you take optional credits. UNC EdS is a 72 hour program.

My program is 69 credits and that's with only 3 summer courses. So again, you can easily hit 72 to 80+ credits by making it a full time year-round program, as many doctoral programs are (or increasing credits to 15/semester, which I know of at least one program doing) while still maintaining the 2+1 model. Again, I think you're really misunderstanding how these programs run and you seem to be relying on a lot of questionable inferences and anecdotal information. The NASP standard is 60 credit minimum spread across three years. Adding an unnecessary year of training doesn't make much sense for anyone involved. As others in this thread have said, you seem to be posting information about training standards without checking your facts first. Even if these programs you mentioned do extend to add a fourth year, they are the exception, not the rule, and I see absolutely no evidence that this is the direction that training is heading in. In fact, my program has discussed the idea of trying to create a more streamlined process akin to the accelerated 5-6 year programs for teachers, PTs and OTs.

 

[erg923]

My program is 69 credits and that's with only 3 summer courses. So again, you can easily hit 72 to 80+ credits by making it a full time year-round program, as many doctoral programs are (or increasing credits to 15/semester, which I know of at least one program doing) while still maintaining the 2+1 model. Again, I think you're really misunderstanding how these programs run and you seem to be relying on a lot of questionable inferences and anecdotal information.

This is this posters Modus Operandi, if you will. He has been lectured about this before by at least half a dozen other regular posters. He does not typically acknowledge the feedback or concern, typically plowing ahead with more facts, speculation, anecdotes, etc.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Most EdS school psych programs are now 78-85 hour and takes four year and then year internship. Only difference between PhD is no dissertation. Many Ms counseling degrees are now 60-65 hour programs.

I'm not sure if you mean just in School Psychology, though it definitely isn't true for Clinical/Counseling psychology. Doctoral training (at least for clinical/counseling) is far more than "classes + dissertation". TA'ing, RA'ing, etc. I can only speak for myself, but classes made up ~30% of my training time.

 

[Chalupacabra]

I'm not sure if you mean just in School Psychology, though it definitely isn't true for Clinical/Counseling psychology. Doctoral training (at least for clinical/counseling) is far more than "classes + dissertation". TA'ing, RA'ing, etc. I can only speak for myself, but classes made up ~30% of my training time.

This is also true of any funded, reputable SP program. EdS programs with TA/RA opportunities seem to be the exception, and they tend to be very limited. At the doctoral program I'll be attending assisting with research teaching, supervising EdS students, etc. are all mandatory responsibilities tied to your funding. Again, very different from my current experience where I had to go above and beyond to receive teaching and research experience.

 

[Koogy]

In order to be licensed as a LMHC you need 3ooo hrs of supervision ---to sit for the test to be licensed. (that's about 2 years)-- Is there anyone out there who is currently in the PHd program who obtained their license for LMHC or is in the process of it?-- There are a lot of people who are LMHC, PhD--- I am wondering how in the world did they obtain it in terms of time-- How did they manage to go to into Phd program while trying to obtain that license? because from what I know---

----- Also there's some people that think obtaining LMHC is not worth it if eventually you are going to get phd- I disagree-- there's some jobs that look for LMHC and not phd (psychologist) -- but I do not know the reason why-- does any one know why?? I mean if that was the case there wouldn't be professionals out there who got both--

This thread completely detailed from the original question. I got my MA in MFT (basically LPC course work and 5 more systs classes, plus I added a sex therapy spec which was another 5). I have my associate LAMFT. To get the full licensure, the state I'm in required 2,000 hours of client /training/office/supervision. It comes out for me about 1,000 per year. I just entered my second year to bank the second half. I'm also fist year PsyD in counsels psych. If all goes well, ill be working about 30 hours per week for the LMFT chase and in classes for PsyD. My PsyD program accepted my MA, do its fairly short and although intense I don't expect it to be insanity. The state I'm on gives a max of 5 years to reach the 2,000 hour minimum. So worste case scenario if psyd coursework gets bad, then i'll have to go down on work hours and work longer to reach my 2,000.

The reason why I want licensure at the masters level- LMFT and to be a licensed psychologist simultaneously really is because I want to give myself options. With an LMFT (once I become an AAMFT fellow/approved Supervisor), I can supervise graduate mft students /associates w LAMFT because my state requires at least 1 year of Supervision by an credentialed LMFT, so job security on that end because of how few MFT supervisors there are in my state right now. Plus, Icould get more referrals from insurance if I bill as LMFT if I end up being in private practice. Had I had my head on right, I would have jumped into a phd/PsyD program straight out of undergrad. Instead I dabbled with the masters. But the double licensure really only helps with having variety and options. If I were you, id forget the 3,000 hours for the masters licensure and focus in your doctoral program.

 

[TORIAmist]

This thread completely detailed from the original question. I got my MA in MFT (basically LPC course work and 5 more systs classes, plus I added a sex therapy spec which was another 5). I have my associate LAMFT. To get the full licensure, the state I'm in required 2,000 hours of client /training/office/supervision. It comes out for me about 1,000 per year. I just entered my second year to bank the second half. I'm also fist year PsyD in counsels psych. If all goes well, ill be working about 30 hours per week for the LMFT chase and in classes for PsyD. My PsyD program accepted my MA, do its fairly short and although intense I don't expect it to be insanity. The state I'm on gives a max of 5 years to reach the 2,000 hour minimum. So worste case scenario if psyd coursework gets bad, then i'll have to go down on work hours and work longer to reach my 2,000.

The reason why I want licensure at the masters level- LMFT and to be a licensed psychologist simultaneously really is because I want to give myself options. With an LMFT (once I become an AAMFT fellow/approved Supervisor), I can supervise graduate mft students /associates w LAMFT because my state requires at least 1 year of Supervision by an credentialed LMFT, so job security on that end because of how few MFT supervisors there are in my state right now. Plus, Icould get more referrals from insurance if I bill as LMFT if I end up being in private practice. Had I had my head on right, I would have jumped into a phd/PsyD program straight out of undergrad. Instead I dabbled with the masters. But the double licensure really only helps with having variety and options. If I were you, id forget the 3,000 hours for the masters licensure and focus in your doctoral program.

Thank you for your reply;; I think your experience is something I really needed to hear~ So like you said because you have the options to bill the insurance as LMFT instead of a psychologist-- wouldn't that be a big benefit in terms of being accepted from several insurance companies? So shouldn't I at get my LMHC while applying to Phd? And also, if I may ask what you think about someone who has both LMHC and LCSW? Aren't they very similar? Like what would be the point of having both? Would you think this is a waste?

 

[mkberry85]

In regards to the PhD, are you talking about a PhD in CES or clinical/counseling psychology?

Just some random comments:
I have my M.Ed. in MHC (along with my NCC and several specialty certifications), I am currently working as a therapist and currently a full-time PsyD student, so you can do both. With that, many CES doctoral programs will only have a few classes a semester and you can count your job towards any practicum/internship that you may have. And yes, every CES program that I have seen will require some sort of practicum.

Not all programs will require a formal dissertation, some may use a doctoral research project in lieu of a dissertation. These are essentially dissertations, with a few modifications.

Most doctoral counseling (typically called CES) programs will focus on some advance counseling theories, models of clinical supervision, , teaching in higher education,, administration, practicum/internship, practicums in teaching, ethics, research and statistics, and some will have advance courses in assessment and diagnosis.

I have never seen a legitimate, accredited counseling/CES doctoral program that did not require internships.

In regards to the NCE, while not as long as the EPPP, I know people who have completed both and none have said that one is easier. In fact, I know a few people that failed the NCE yet passed the EPPP without studying.

Not all individuals with doctorates go the psychology route, a friend of mine just graduated with her PhD in Counseling Psychology, but opted for the counseling route.

I really don't know why you continually bring out psychology licensing OneNeuro. The majority of CES/Counseling doctoral programs require a masters in counseling, in fact, every program that I know does. These individuals enter these programs to 1) obtain more knowledge and 2) prepare for teaching in higher education, not to become a psychologist or to use the term psychologist.

A doctorate in counseling does not equal more pay. It will, most likely, provide you an edge for moving up into administration/supervision positions, which do pay more.

All new faculty in CACREP programs are required to have a doctorate in CES.

Many psychologists, as I'm sure any counselor will realize, has a significant ego program. They truly feel as though a counselor is inferior to them and that counselors want to be them. Even though I was a licensed counselor (and still working as therapist with my masters), and now working on my clinical psych doctorate, I do not see the psychology field as superior and in no way, do I believe that a psychologist does "better therapy" than a counselor. They are very distinct fields, you cannot compare the two- it is not like a NP and a MD/DO.

The CES (which is what more counseling programs are) focus on EDUCATION and SUPERVISION; most will complete the degree to teach in higher education.

The APA is fighting for the school psychology license to be changed to a doctorate, but the school psychology field is fighting it. I was engaged in a very heated debate on this topic on LinkedIn not too long ago. The EdS is typically 60-66 hours (some more, but not less), which in terms of hours, is not significantly different from a PhD in Clinical Psychology.

School Neuropsychologists are not pretending to be neuropsychologists, in fact, the board for the field specifically outlines this. The field is actually to provide further training to practicing school psychologists on the neurological aspects that can/and do impede on matters relevant to the school.

The field of NP has argued (and set deadlines) of when to go to the DNP; initially it was 2012/2013 I believe. Many programs are not phasing out their MSN and gearing up their DNP programs.

I am very thankful for my M.Ed. and counseling education; I truly learned more in that program in regards to treatment and theories than I have in my doctorate in psychology and more than several of my friends who graduated from my doctoral program. While I disagree with the wellness model (what the field of counseling was founded on); it still is a great field and a great license to hold. If there is any possibility you would want to complete a doctorate in psychology, I would suggest against doing a counseling masters. The field and practitioners will be talked down by professors often (not a week goes by that at least one professor doesn't) and courses will not transfer.