Long hours are a danger to our patients

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Lexington2012

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I've seen a lot of comments here about how the max hours varies per state. OSHA is a national regulating body and the regulations say:

"No one shall knowingly be permitted or required to work while the employee's ability or alertness is so impaired by fatigue, illness, or other causes that it might expose the employee or others to injury."

Are these crazy long shifts not a violation of the OSHA regulations?

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10 hours straight (especially in Retail land) seems to dull the mind enough to make an error here or there, imo.

Especially since we are not getting the law allowed breaks... what is it 15 minutes per every 4 hours iirc?
 
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I didn't mind long hours (I used to do 14) because I had plenty of days off. The problem is the lack of an actual lunch and many times I had to get there early and leave late...and my brain was really drained at the end of the day.
 
Although I agree with your dissatisfaction, white collar professionals need to work blue collar jobs to really see just how good we have it.
 
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Not necessarily applicable, but wasn't there a study among surgical residents that was recently published in NEJM that assessed the impacts of duty hour restrictions, and it showed restricted hour programs were non-inferior to traditional programs with respect to serious danger? I think death and serious complications were primary outcomes.


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Of course there are serious issues with external validity for that study in applying it to pharmacists, but I think it brings up interesting discussion on safety and hours. Also, that statement by OSHA is awfully subjective and employee-centric. Is the burden on the on the employee to tell the employer that they don't feel safe working, or is the burden on the employer to reduce hours?


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Bunch of whiners. 14 hour shift makes you tired? Go to bed earlier. My medical residents do longer shifts and more often so no sympathy from me.
 
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I work 12 hour shifts but we close from 1:30 to 2 for lunch, but I think Target was the only other pharmacy that did that and I'm sure CVS will get rid of it so I'm thinking closed for lunch will be a thing of the past.


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I didn't mind long hours (I used to do 14) because I had plenty of days off. The problem is the lack of an actual lunch and many times I had to get there early and leave late...and my brain was really drained at the end of the day.
^^^
This. I have always wondered what my blood sugar was at the end of my 14 hour shift.


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It probably is dangerous, but even more so for doctors who just recently had their residency hours lowered from 36 hr shifts to 24 hr shifts. Or that picture of the Canadian firefighters all passed out after a 30+ hour shift. I don't disagree that errors are more likely to happen the more fatigued someone gets, I just don't see any practical way its going to change anytime soon.
 
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I work 12 hour shifts but we close from 1:30 to 2 for lunch, but I think Target was the only other pharmacy that did that and I'm sure CVS will get rid of it so I'm thinking closed for lunch will be a thing of the past.


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Yep. Already did. Gone forever. Their phones stopped shutting off for lunch once they converted to the CVS system. Now they're at the mercy of the hordes.
 
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If you are into intermittent fasting and dehydration, at least 13-14 hour shifts with little downtime help facilitate this.

You could probably do 13-14 hours regularly for a few years when you are young. 10 years later, maybe not so much.
 
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My medical residents do longer shifts and more often so no sympathy from me.

Yeah, and how many dumb **** things have you seen residents do in your life? They are the people without the common sense to think that putting "Give 4.983ml every 12 hours" is a perfectly reasonable thing to put on an Amoxil prescription. "Because medical residents" is one of the most **** justifications I've ever read on SDN and that's saying something.

In fact, it amuses me that a profession that prides itself on evidence based blah blah blah is perfectly fine with overworking people beyond what is reasonable. And the reason it's perpetuated is because "it's always been that way." What an effing joke. You should be embarrassed for even thinking that one up.
 
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Not necessarily applicable, but wasn't there a study among surgical residents that was recently published in NEJM that assessed the impacts of duty hour restrictions, and it showed restricted hour programs were non-inferior to traditional programs with respect to serious danger? I think death and serious complications were primary outcomes.


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Restricted and non restricted hours have to do with length of shifts and time off between shifts, not total hours worked. Both restricted and non restricted programs are "limited" to 80 hour weeks averaged over 4 weeks with 1 day off a week averaged over 4 weeks. As a former pharmacist and a current resident, trust me, your hours are not excessively long.


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Yeah, and how many dumb **** things have you seen residents do in your life? They are the people without the common sense to think that putting "Give 4.983ml every 12 hours" is a perfectly reasonable thing to put on an Amoxil prescription. "Because medical residents" is one of the most **** justifications I've ever read on SDN and that's saying something.

In fact, it amuses me that a profession that prides itself on evidence based blah blah blah is perfectly fine with overworking people beyond what is reasonable. And the reason it's perpetuated is because "it's always been that way." What an effing joke. You should be embarrassed for even thinking that one up.

Oh please, where's the cheese with all this whine? I've seen pharmacists working 6 hour shifts approve some of the dumbest things. We even had a pharmacist working an 8 hour shift give a 100 fold overdose of potassium to a child. So I don't know what the hell you're talking about, get some sleep? Maybe upgrade your mattress?

You're the one who should be embarrassed for saying that ordering 4.983 mL on a prescription is justification for the end of "long shifts" hahaha you goofball.
 
While we're on the subject of medical residents, an entire country of doctors in England went on strike this January due to a contract change causing all junior doctors, basically residents, to have no safeguards against longer hours. Their premise has been basically that the long hours are unsafe for patients and the new pay schedule is unfair to doctors.
 
Yeah, and how many dumb **** things have you seen residents do in your life? They are the people without the common sense to think that putting "Give 4.983ml every 12 hours" is a perfectly reasonable thing to put on an Amoxil prescription. "Because medical residents" is one of the most **** justifications I've ever read on SDN and that's saying something.

In fact, it amuses me that a profession that prides itself on evidence based blah blah blah is perfectly fine with overworking people beyond what is reasonable. And the reason it's perpetuated is because "it's always been that way." What an effing joke. You should be embarrassed for even thinking that one up.

Most of those weight based doses are spit right out of a software system. Pretty sure they didn't type out all those numbers. Willing to bet that 10/10 medical residents can think critically enough to realize that 5ml is close enough.
 
Oh please, where's the cheese with all this whine? I've seen pharmacists working 6 hour shifts approve some of the dumbest things. We even had a pharmacist working an 8 hour shift give a 100 fold overdose of potassium to a child. So I don't know what the hell you're talking about, get some sleep? Maybe upgrade your mattress?

You're the one who should be embarrassed for saying that ordering 4.983 mL on a prescription is justification for the end of "long shifts" hahaha you goofball.

Stupid people are everywhere. That's not my point. Defending anything above a 45 hour workweek is idiocy. At some point, it begins to affect performance. Residents become basically zombies after a while. We've all seen it. I fricking pity them. But any way you slice it, it's pretty unreasonable to expect someone to go 14 hours with no breaks. At least they give medical residents a damned lunch break. I go 12 hours without a break and it sucks. By 6PM or so, I feel my attention starting to slide, but I can usually snap back pretty fast. Get some food in me and I'm usually good again.

This entire line of reasoning is a logical fallacy. Because something horrible happened to someone else doesn't mean you should be happy with a **** situation. Sure, being a North Korean must really suck, but it doesn't mean that a guy that got castrated in a freak carnival accident shouldn't be be depressed about it because, hey, at least he isn't in one of Kim Jung-Un's concentration camps. And saying that pharmacists who have to go 14 hours with no break shouldn't complain because medical residents have to go through what is basically an intensive learning experience and elaborate hazing ritual rolled into one is a similar leap of nonsense.
 
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Most of those weight based doses are spit right out of a software system. Pretty sure they didn't type out all those numbers. Willing to bet that 10/10 medical residents can think critically enough to realize that 5ml is close enough.

Oh, I know. But when the attending e-scribes that **** over, it always seems to somehow magically be a whole number.
 
Yeah, and how many dumb **** things have you seen residents do in your life? They are the people without the common sense to think that putting "Give 4.983ml every 12 hours" is a perfectly reasonable thing to put on an Amoxil prescription. "Because medical residents" is one of the most **** justifications I've ever read on SDN and that's saying something.

In fact, it amuses me that a profession that prides itself on evidence based blah blah blah is perfectly fine with overworking people beyond what is reasonable. And the reason it's perpetuated is because "it's always been that way." What an effing joke. You should be embarrassed for even thinking that one up.
They have done follow up studies that the education is worse with decreased hours and no decrease in errors. Bad things happen regardless. By physicians and residents. Hi acuity positions.
 
They have done follow up studies that the education is worse with decreased hours and no decrease in errors. Bad things happen regardless. By physicians and residents. Hi acuity positions.

Just looking through Pubmed, I've found more than a few that disagree. And some that agree. So I'd say that it's debatable at best. Thankfully, a lot of residency is paperwork and other bits of non-direct patient care...plus they are directly supervised by someone that knows what they are doing. But that isn't an excuse for what is done to them. It's sleep deprivation and mental fatigue training you'd expect in Navy Seal training or something. 80? 100 hour work weeks?
 
Just looking through Pubmed, I've found more than a few that disagree. And some that agree. So I'd say that it's debatable at best. Thankfully, a lot of residency is paperwork and other bits of non-direct patient care...plus they are directly supervised by someone that knows what they are doing. But that isn't an excuse for what is done to them. It's sleep deprivation and mental fatigue training you'd expect in Navy Seal training or something. 80? 100 hour work weeks?
Come on man. 80 hours a week means those pharmacy residents are doing nothing for the remaining 88 hours. They're working half as much as they should be on those powerpoint presentations.

And what's the worst that's gonna happen when a pharmacy resident screws up. The worst case scenario involves them frying the hard drive that contains all their powerpoint slides.

Come on. You actually think they do meaningful work like the medical residents or the RNs.
 
Come on man. 80 hours a week means those pharmacy residents are doing nothing for the remaining 88 hours. They're working half as much as they should be on those powerpoint presentations.

And what's the worst that's gonna happen when a pharmacy resident screws up. The worst case scenario involves them frying the hard drive that contains all their powerpoint slides.

Come on. You actually think they do meaningful work like the medical residents or the RNs.

I believe he's talking about medical residents.
 
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Other professions understand that long hours can cause disaster. Did you know that Greyhound bus drivers are not allowed to drive for more than 10 hours in a shift without an 8-hour break?

Even regular old truckers have a federal law prohibiting more than 11 hours of driving.
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hours-service/summary-hours-service-regulations

Commercial pilots can only fly 8 hours in a 24 hour period:
https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=6762

I know you all want to compare us to doctors, but we should really be looking at the other professions where hour limits have been implemented.
 
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Other professions understand that long hours can cause disaster. Did you know that Greyhound bus drivers are not allowed to drive for more than 10 hours in a shift without an 8-hour break?

Even regular old truckers have a federal law prohibiting more than 11 hours of driving.
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hours-service/summary-hours-service-regulations

Commercial pilots can only fly 8 hours in a 24 hour period:
https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=6762

I know you all want to compare us to doctors, but we should really be looking at the other professions where hour limits have been implemented.
We are Mcdonalds level man
 
Can you just shut up?

You make our lives more difficult. One of the best things about pharmacy is working 3-4 days a week, 10-12 hour shifts and making your base. If you and like minded folk push enough on this front, you'll force the higher ups to institute a maximum 8 hour shift for Rphs.

Then you're looking at making the same base but being in the building 5 days a week. Corp salivates at this because they can make you do so much more on that extra day.
 
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My ex was a casino dealer. They're required to take a 15 minute break every hour (so they work 45 minutes, then take a break) so that they don't make any mistakes counting money. My friend is a trucker. His company won't let him drive for more than 10 hours because it's a safety risk. If he goes over 10 hours, he's at risk for being fired. Yet no one blinks at 14 hour shifts with no lunch breaks for pharmacists checking medications for patients. In fact, people (like some in this thread) actually glorify working longer hours without breaks so that we can make ourselves look as cool and tough as the physicians. Yeah, OP is a "whiner" because he's concerned for patient safety based on actual evidence.

Pharmacists aren't doctors so we don't have the same continuity of care issues with patients the way a physician does (that is, the less you hand off patients, the better - this doesn't really apply to pharmacists). So the studies comparing long hours for physicians don't apply to pharmacists in the same way.

There's pretty solid evidence (from multiple studies) that cognitive function and concentration decline if you don't take regular breaks. The upper limit of concentration without breaks before a cognitive task begins to suffer is somewhere around 60-90 minutes. There is data showing that people make more mistakes on tasks when they're not given breaks - even after just 50 minutes of doing the same task. Furthermore, it's human nature to assume that you're the exception, so people don't really realize or won't admit that they have these limits.

Why do we ignore this sort of evidence and allow ourselves to be worked to the bone with unsafe conditions, and then talk it up like we're awesome tough guys because we're willing to work in conditions that put patient safety at risk? Our employers push it because it saves them money because they can hire fewer people. But why do we act like it's somehow a good thing for our profession - one which is supposed to be a crucial safeguard against errors?

And of course people will still make errors with shorter shifts - mistakes don't ONLY happen because of long hours. But if there's solid evidence that longer shifts without breaks increases errors, then wouldn't cutting back on shifts, or just giving more regular breaks, help reduce errors? Just because a measure wouldn't reduce the number of errors to zero doesn't mean it's not worth trying to reduce SOME of the errors? I guess just because physicians have to work ****ty hours, we should let ourselves do the same thing so that no one will think we're "whining" because we don't want to kill patients with errors. So sick of the glorifying this type of mentality. Absolutely asinine.
 
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Can you just shut up?

You make our lives more difficult.

Would your life be more difficult if you got breaks and a lunch like an actual professional? Even the "cool and tough" doctors typically get these breaks.
 
If you are into intermittent fasting and dehydration, at least 13-14 hour shifts with little downtime help facilitate this.

You could probably do 13-14 hours regularly for a few years when you are young. 10 years later, maybe not so much.
I was just saying this - when I gradiuated at 26 - I did 13 hour shifts, 3-5 in a row - no issues. I am 27 now- at 10 hours, I am all done
 
Can you just shut up?

You make our lives more difficult. One of the best things about pharmacy is working 3-4 days a week, 10-12 hour shifts and making your base. If you and like minded folk push enough on this front, you'll force the higher ups to institute a maximum 8 hour shift for Rphs.

Then you're looking at making the same base but being in the building 5 days a week. Corp salivates at this because they can make you do so much more on that extra day.
10 to 12 hour shift with an hour scheduled lunch break is fine

10 to 12 without a scheduled lunch break "eat and rest when you can" nonsense is not fine

you are a little corporate b!tch anyway so **** your opinion
 
My ex was a casino dealer. They're required to take a 15 minute break every hour (so they work 45 minutes, then take a break) so that they don't make any mistakes counting money. My friend is a trucker. His company won't let him drive for more than 10 hours because it's a safety risk. If he goes over 10 hours, he's at risk for being fired. Yet no one blinks at 14 hour shifts with no lunch breaks for pharmacists checking medications for patients. In fact, people (like some in this thread) actually glorify working longer hours without breaks so that we can make ourselves look as cool and tough as the physicians. Yeah, OP is a "whiner" because he's concerned for patient safety based on actual evidence.

Pharmacists aren't doctors so we don't have the same continuity of care issues with patients the way a physician does (that is, the less you hand off patients, the better - this doesn't really apply to pharmacists). So the studies comparing long hours for physicians don't apply to pharmacists in the same way.

There's pretty solid evidence (from multiple studies) that cognitive function and concentration decline if you don't take regular breaks. The upper limit of concentration without breaks before a cognitive task begins to suffer is somewhere around 60-90 minutes. There is data showing that people make more mistakes on tasks when they're not given breaks - even after just 50 minutes of doing the same task. Furthermore, it's human nature to assume that you're the exception, so people don't really realize or won't admit that they have these limits.

Why do we ignore this sort of evidence and allow ourselves to be worked to the bone with unsafe conditions, and then talk it up like we're awesome tough guys because we're willing to work in conditions that put patient safety at risk? Our employers push it because it saves them money because they can hire fewer people. But why do we act like it's somehow a good thing for our profession - one which is supposed to be a crucial safeguard against errors?

And of course people will still make errors with shorter shifts - mistakes don't ONLY happen because of long hours. But if there's solid evidence that longer shifts without breaks increases errors, then wouldn't cutting back on shifts, or just giving more regular breaks, help reduce errors? Just because a measure wouldn't reduce the number of errors to zero doesn't mean it's not worth trying to reduce SOME of the errors? I guess just because physicians have to work ****ty hours, we should let ourselves do the same thing so that no one will think we're "whining" because we don't want to kill patients with errors. So sick of the glorifying this type of mentality. Absolutely asinine.

Reminds me of the times when I woke up so feverish after a tough shift, lungs inflamed, guts exhausted, (yes, guts, not just muscles) that it's not just calling sick that runs through my mind, but calling it a career. So I managed to pull my carcass to the phone feeling like a magma-ravaged Anakin and all the feedback I get from the scheduler is," You have to come in and open."

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I agree that I like working 3-4 days per week and having more days off. I've only done 12 hour shifts though, so I can't say how I'd feel about working 14+. hours. Personally, I felt more drained and fatigued when I worked 5 days in a row, even though the shifts were shorter. No day off to completely unwind and reset, just a few extra hours to eat dinner and sleep before heading back into it. Even doing 4x10, if it's 4 in a row, it's worse than if you get a day off in the middle, although for some the longer weekend makes up for it.
Just turne down a job that spread the 40 hour week over 5 days. 2 12s, 2 8s, and 2 6s.
I'm no mathematician, but... I think they were scamming you if that's advertised as 40 hours/5 days.
 
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10 to 12 hour shift with an hour scheduled lunch break is fine

10 to 12 without a scheduled lunch break "eat and rest when you can" nonsense is not fine

you are a little corporate b!tch anyway so **** your opinion
So, are you the one who is gonna take on Larry and win us some worker's rights?:heckyeah:
 
Just turne down a job that spread the 40 hour week over 5 days. 2 12s, 2 8s, and 2 6s.

I think you meant 6 days/week. I had a similar job offer several years ago, 40/wk average spread out as 5 days/week alternating with 6/days week. I passed. Every extra day at work is extra commute time, extra "beautifying" time, extra picking out clothes to wear and then having to wash them afterwards time. I'd rather work longer days, less days/week.
 
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Sorry. I meant 1 12, 2 8s and 2 6s for 5 days. With the 8 and 6 bouncing between open to mid day and mid day to close. The store I'm at we do 40h Ave over 3 days 1 week and 4 the next.

Working those 6 hours would kill the day
 
Sorry. I meant 1 12, 2 8s and 2 6s for 5 days. With the 8 and 6 bouncing between open to mid day and mid day to close. The store I'm at we do 40h Ave over 3 days 1 week and 4 the next.

Working those 6 hours would kill the day


Even on the 6 hour day you will come across some kind of issue


Trust me, almost like retail chain pharmacy is designed in a way that you will have at least one issue to mess up your work day ... whether it's a call out or printer breaking or something
 
10 to 12 hour shift with an hour scheduled lunch break is fine

10 to 12 without a scheduled lunch break "eat and rest when you can" nonsense is not fine

you are a little corporate b!tch anyway so **** your opinion

At least corporate b*tch moves up the ladder and gets pay well. This guy doesn't.


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They don't care

And in this field there will always be some try hard ***** willing to be a slave
 
I honestly like working longer shifts, less days you have to be at work and more days to yourself. The danger to our patients are the short staffing of pharmacies and focus on scripts out the door over accuracy and proper counselling.
 
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