M4 chat - what would you like to know about?

[NickNaylor]

Hi everyone,

A few classmates of mine and I were talking about getting together to talk about aspects of med school life - be it academic or otherwise - for those interested in getting into or about to start medical school this year. Since I continue to be called out for making videos in a similar vein with these guys, this will not be in a video format but, instead, a strict audio recording a la a one-time podcast. This is something we enjoy doing, and since we all wish we had some sort of resource like this when we were in your shoes, we're trying to return the favor and pay it forward.

To get a sense of what people might be interested in, share here what you'd be interested in hearing more about. This isn't meant to be an "application advice" sort of experience but, instead, something designed to give you an inside look from a few people with different perspectives, approaches, etc. into what the medical school experience has been like in a candid way. Since we're all M4s, we have the benefit of seeing the experience in its complete context.

Seem interesting? Share some topics below. I'll post occasional updates here as we get things going, and I'll post a final link to the discussion in this thread when it's finished (likely within a month or so).

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Bovary]

Subject: living off of loans.

Is it common for med students to have similar budgets, moderately constrained by loan packages?

In our late 20s, many of our friends outside of medicine will be professions that afford a lot more spare money than we will have. Is it unifying for med students to all be "poor" together, or is this not even the case?

 

[NickNaylor]

Subject: living off of loans.

Is it common for med students to have similar budgets, moderately constrained by loan packages?

In our late 20s, many of our friends outside of medicine will be professions that afford a lot more spare money than we will have. Is it unifying for med students to all be "poor" together, or is this not even the case?

Great question - we can definitely discuss this, though I will say that much of it is school- and area-dependent. Some schools are more generous than others regarding their allowances for cost of living. In some areas (e.g., NYC, LA, etc.), it's just simply more expensive to live there even taking into account increased allowances for COL.

Regardless, we can certainly talk about this.

 

[Lucca]

I think it's a great idea, for what it's worth. I'd be interested in hearing what you think about the state of medical education. Is it accomplishing what it set out to do? Where does it fall short? Where does it shine? However, I'm not applying next cycle so I'm probably not part of the target group.

 

[NickNaylor]

I think it's a great idea, for what it's worth. I'd be interested in hearing what you think about the state of medical education. Is it accomplishing what it set out to do? Where does it fall short? Where does it shine? However, I'm not applying next cycle so I'm probably not part of the target group.

Interesting. Keep in mind that we're only med students, so we can only comment from our perspective. What specifically would you like to know about?

 

[Lucca]

Interesting. Keep in mind that we're only med students, so we can only comment from our perspective. What specifically would you like to know about?

Yah I'm more interested in just impressions from what you *felt* throughout the four years. Not really a very academic "What ought medical education be?" kind of question. I hear a lot of differing opinions on the softer side of med school. Cultural competency, professionalism, small groups, PBL, medical humanities, and all other variations of the softer side of medicine so I'd just like to hear some more in-depth opinions on how this is handled, if students feel its effective, etc... I understand that a resident might look back on it different than a med student but just a general curiosity of mine.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Happy to participate if there's room.

 

[sunnysnow7]

What, if anything, surprised you as you transitioned from the classroom to clerkships?

Looking forward to listening!

 

[Earl Simmons]

Pet dog in medical school - is it too much of a responsibility for a new owner and an MS1?
Do you think medical school class size matter in terms of overall experience? Are smaller class sizes better?
How big of a deal is no debt vs 100K in debt upon graduation in the long run and short run?
Now that you are through medical school and reflect back on it, what is a list of 5 things (or fewer or more) when selecting a medical school?

 

[NYCdude]

How did you try to make the most of your rotations?

 

[The Buff OP]

• Do any of you guys have a gf/bf or spouse? If so, are you guys relocating to another state for your residency? How do you convince them to come along?
• Have you guys picked a specialty yet? If so, why that specialty? 1st choice, 2nd choice of specialties?
• Looking back, how much have you guys changed from MS1 (the way you view things in the medical field, lifestyle, etc)?
• Whats is your opinion about those who choose to do HPSP or FAP? Would you have done it or would you do it?
• What is an important message you would like to give to new medical students?
• You guys know I have to ask this question. Do you even lift? If you worked out in UG, did your gym schedule changed a lot in medical school?

 

[Bovary]

Great question - we can definitely discuss this, though I will say that much of it is school- and area-dependent. Some schools are more generous than others regarding their allowances for cost of living. In some areas (e.g., NYC, LA, etc.), it's just simply more expensive to live there even taking into account increased allowances for COL.

Regardless, we can certainly talk about this.

Awesome. In fact, I was thinking more of how students at a particular school compare to each other (which doesn't require comparisons with other regions).

Do poorer students and richer students have similar amounts of money because both cohorts are financially bound by the same loan limits?

Is there a visible division, on the other hand, between the students who get an additional $1000 check from Mom/Dad every month to pay for a nicer apartment + eat more expensively?

I think it's interesting that medical students come from relatively well-off social groups, and are often friends with young adults working in business/consulting/tech/finance/marketing and who make lots of $$$. Do you ever say "Oh, Jim and Delilah invited me to get dinner and drinks at the cool new french spot called Le Chatelier's, but you know us med students: can't afford it!!" and med student 2 says "Oh yeah, I can totally relate! Even the NIH paid me more than this! I wish I could afford to fly to San Francisco for my friend's wedding ..."

 

[ridethecliche]

-How do you keep up with family and life events outside of school?
-How do you keep up with your personal life during school (i.e. friends, relationships, workouts, etc)? Aka, how do you manage what little 'free' time you have?

 

[breakintheroof]

What motivates you? How has that changed in medical school?

 

[nope1955]

I have a fin aid question. If someone were to receive a substantial package from one of their lower choice schools, how would you go about informing your top choice school to see if you could receive a slightly bigger package?

 

[Manifester]

How do you balance family/friends relationships amidst your busy life?

 

[ZymurgySurfer]

A walkthrough of how things went for you year to year, how your perspectives and lives changed, and any sage advice for your fellow medical students

 

[NickNaylor]

Thanks for the suggestions. Here's a basic list of the questions/topics I've got. We'll also spend a minute or two introducing ourselves and the specialties we're going into, so you'll get that info.

1) Thoughts on class size
2) Thoughts on debt burden, living on student loans from a social perspective
3) List of the 5 most important things students should look for when choosing a medical school
4) How do you make the most of rotations?
5) Having a SO during medical school, dealing with a relationship with respect to the transition to residency212
6) Changes since starting school as a M1
7) Advice to new or incoming students
8) Do you even lift?
9) Maintaining a life outside of medical school
10) What motivates you, and how has that changed since medical school?
11) Walkthrough of the experience year by year and how we've changed personally

Keep them coming if there's anything else you want discussed!

 

[NickNaylor]

What motivates you? How has that changed in medical school?

I can only speak for myself here, but shameless plug for my blog (link in my signature): the post I made yesterday delves a bit into this topic. We'll certainly discuss this as I think it's one of those things many people either don't think about or don't discuss, but that might be a place to start.

 

[breakintheroof]

I can only speak for myself here, but shameless plug for my blog (link in my signature): the post I made yesterday delves a bit into this topic. We'll certainly discuss this as I think it's one of those things many people either don't think about or don't discuss, but that might be a place to start.

I had just read that post after noticing your updated signature--hadn't seen it before I asked! Glad to see it's been on your mind and that you're feeling more purposeful.

 

[QuantumFlame]

Thanks for doing this NickNaylor! Two questions I would be interested in:

1) Experiences and general advice about integrating research (both basic/translational/clinical as well as policy or healthcare management/innovation) into the med school journey. When? Where?

2) Dual degrees: are they worth it? Should they be done in med school or afterwards? I have definitely heard people advocating both sides on this issue, especially with regards to MBA and MPH programs.

Cheers.

 

[NickNaylor]

Will definitely do the above - good suggestions.

In terms of timing, I talked with my buddies and we will likely try to get the discussion done in the next couple of weeks. Hopefully I'll be able to get a final product up by the end of the month.

For the mods: if it would be possible to make this some kind of SDN collaboration largely for hosting the file (rather than me uploading it to a third party service like Dropbox or Box that will inevitably cause problems), let me know.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Pet dog in medical school - is it too much of a responsibility for a new owner and an MS1?

People have kids in med school and do just fine. You can handle a dog.

 

[optimistic3]

Can you speak about time management with regards to studying? Were any of you procrastinators and crammed/pulled all-nighters a lot in undergrad and if so, how were you able to change your study habits in med school?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

If you could start your own med school, what would it be like?

Location: Urban? Suburban? Rural? Desert?
Class size: Small? Medium? Large?
Curriculum: How would you set up your blocks? Length of pre-clininical sequence? Step 1 before or after rotations? Flex time for Step 1?
Classrooms: Traditional lectures or PBL?
Grading System: P/F? Traditional grades?
Research: Required or optional ?
Primary care: Like, a real focus on primary care?
Rotations: Where would your students rotate (i.e. type of hospitals)? How would students be graded?
Would you require any courses/rotations that are not universally required?
Anything else?!!

I realize that much of this is purely subjective and that you're only at one school. However, I'm always interested to see how med students feel about their overall experience and if they would change anything about it.

Thanks for doing this!!

 

[Ismet]

People have kids in med school and do just fine. You can handle a dog.

If you have someone else in your life who can take care of them. Please don't get a dog if you don't have someone to take care of it during the day in 3rd year.

 

[karayaa]

@NickNaylor,
How do you feel about "non-clinical/biomedical" content in the curriculum?
Eg studying geographic/ethnic/economic health disparities, social determinants of health, healthcare systems, healthcare outcomes/quality/delivery, behavioral medicine, lifestyle diseases, public health, cross-cultural/minority health/care, stress and mental health.
How important is it? How does it help - does it's importance depend on your specialty? What's the best way to teach it? How much do students learn?

How do schools view primary care? Do they encourage/discourage students who are interested? Why do so few students choose it, especially at the top schools? Do they get an honest look at it, or is it biased?

How do you preserve your empathy?

Do any med schools "add value" to students? How do you measure it?

edit: how do schools teach students to be "lifelong learners"? Is this just a trendy buzzword?

edit 2 :
How much do you actually need to learn in med school (leaving aside studying for boards) considering that residency will teach you how to practice in your specialty?
What are the most important things (clinical/social/personal/professional skills, facts, perspectives or awareness) to learn during med school, before you become an intern?


Thanks

 

[halfwaycrooks]

What were your biggest concerns starting med school and how have they changed or been resolved over the past few years?

 

[TheSummit]

Common misconceptions for premeds going to MS1/2, and for MS1/2 going to MS3/4.
Things you have learned or notice from residents as you transition into residency.

 

[GomersGoToGround]

If you have someone else in your life who can take care of them. Please don't get a dog if you don't have someone to take care of it during the day in 3rd year.

Cannot stress this enough.

Aside from the food/bathroom issues, dogs are social creatures that need attention, exercise, and companionship. This requires time, which, during 3rd/4th year, you have very little of.

 

[MaxPlancker]

What proportion of students at your school do activities such as research, volunteering, leadership outside of academics during the school year?

Do students apply for awards and fellowships similar to undergraduates? (imagining there are less opportunities)

What are the best STEP I preparation material?

Thanks!

 

[235009]

Hi everyone,

A few classmates of mine and I were talking about getting together to talk about aspects of med school life - be it academic or otherwise - for those interested in getting into or about to start medical school this year. Since I continue to be called out for making videos in a similar vein with these guys, this will not be in a video format but, instead, a strict audio recording a la a one-time podcast. This is something we enjoy doing, and since we all wish we had some sort of resource like this when we were in your shoes, we're trying to return the favor and pay it forward.

That particularly post wasn't calling you out for making videos...I was just making the point that you were REALLY into SDN at some point and barely even post anymore. But since you brought it up I don't understand why you think audio/video is a better way to answer questions than just having an AMA thread where you and others post responses to questions. Watching parts of the two videos you made just reinforced that sentiment.

Do poorer students and richer students have similar amounts of money because both cohorts are financially bound by the same loan limits?

Is there a visible division, on the other hand, between the students who get an additional $1000 check from Mom/Dad every month to pay for a nicer apartment + eat more expensively?

On SDN the people who are living off loans are way more vocal which makes it seem like this is a universal plight. The reality of the matter is that you'll find a substantial number of med students who get support from their parents and are living very comfortably.

@NickNaylor,
How do you feel about "non-clinical/biomedical" content in the curriculum?
Eg studying geographic/ethnic/economic health disparities, social determinants of health, healthcare systems, healthcare outcomes/quality/delivery, behavioral medicine, lifestyle diseases, public health, cross-cultural/minority health/care, stress and mental health.
How important is it? How does it help - does it's importance depend on your specialty? What's the best way to teach it? How much do students learn?

How do schools view primary care? Do they encourage/discourage students who are interested? Why do so few students choose it, especially at the top schools? Do they get an honest look at it, or is it biased?

The touchy-feely curriculum is massively under-appreciated by med students. Of course it's importance will depend on your specialty....probably way less important if you're doing radiology for instance....but in some fields it comes up constantly.

Any school will support your decision to go into whatever field you want. There are schools that try to skew their curriculum toward primary care....particularly those that are rural or have rural affiliates. Not sure how you're making this judgement that "so few students choose it". The only people who choose primary care coming out of med school are those doing family medicine...everyone else can still potentially specialize.

 

[Lifeman]

When is an ideal time to have an idea of what specialty you want to match into? Is it important to have relevant research to match into competitive residencies--but then wouldn't you have to have an idea early on before you even have any exposure to that field? Basically, I have no idea what I want to do, and am worried that if end up wanting to do a competitive specialty after a 4th year rotation or something, I won't have enough relevant experiences (esp. research) to match into it.

 

[breakintheroof]

I don't understand why you think audio/video is a better way to answer questions than just having an AMA thread where you and others post responses to questions. Watching parts of the two videos you made just reinforced that sentiment.

I like podcasts and I'm looking forward to listening to this one on my commute.

 

[Ismet]

I like podcasts and I'm looking forward to listening to this one on my commute.

Mail...kimp?

 

[NickNaylor]

@MeatTornado

Largely because 1) I don't want to transcribe a discussion between multiple people and 2) the guys interested in doing this don't post on SDN. I'm following the path of least resistance; it's easiest to just hash together something with audio/video, quickly edit it, and throw it up somewhere than writing everything out. I think it also allows for more nuance than writing and can communicate more ideas in a shorter amount of time.

 

[karayaa]

The touchy-feely curriculum is massively under-appreciated by med students. Of course it's importance will depend on your specialty....probably way less important if you're doing radiology for instance....but in some fields it comes up constantly.

Any school will support your decision to go into whatever field you want. There are schools that try to skew their curriculum toward primary care....particularly those that are rural or have rural affiliates. Not sure how you're making this judgement that "so few students choose it". The only people who choose primary care coming out of med school are those doing family medicine...everyone else can still potentially specialize.

I don't want to hijack @NickNaylor's thread, but to clarify:

Underappreciated in a good way, as in they're right to devalue it, or in a bad way, where they're mistaken to underappreciate it?
If it's value is specialty-dependent, how important is it within the undergrad medical curriculum?

Good point - I was thinking of the MSAR specialty choice reports, where many of the USNWR top schools have <10, <15% going into peds, <20, <25% going into IM, and <10% going into FM. Assuming that some of IM/peds people go for fellowships, that means that the number going into primary care is even lower. I wondered what institutional factors contributed to that, and, if low-tier, rural or DO schools have higher numbers of generalist residencies compared to higher-ranked schools, any reasons for the difference..

 

[Psai]

How does it feel to almost be done with medical school? Man I remember when you were a little premed with that 82 LizzyM

 

[235009]

I don't want to hijack @NickNaylor's thread, but to clarify:

Underappreciated in a good way, as in they're right to devalue it, or in a bad way, where they're mistaken to underappreciate it?
If it's value is specialty-dependent, how important is it within the undergrad medical curriculum?

it's important and many med students don't realize this .....they're too concerned with memorizing every step of the krebs cycle which will never matter

 

[snowflakes]

I read before here that you took a pretty laid back approach to med school and your work life balance. How did that affect how much free time you had vs your classmates and your performance? In retrospect, how do you feel about that decision?

I saw a lot of people burn out in undergrad over my four years. Did you see that in med school? We're only in our second semester, and I've already seen a couple people take leaves of absences.

 

[QuantumFlame]

Hey @NickNaylor , any updates on the m4 chat? Looking forward to seeing the finished product (if you are still working on it that is)!