Making Medical School Admissions More Equitable

[Med Ed]

Take a look at the following figures:

Overall acceptance rates:
White - 45%
Hispanic/Latino/Spanish - 44.3%
Asian - 42.2%
Black/African American - 36.2%

Total applicants with 30-32 MCAT and 3.6-3.79 GPA:
White - 5,980 (65.8%)
Asian - 2,406 (26.5%)
Hispanic/Latino/Spanish - 505 (5.6%)
Black/African American - 191 (2.1%)

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[863168]

I don’t think you have to be too concerned as equal representation of race and socioeconomic class has yet to happen at Med schools across the nation. I think people forget that merit can include more than objective stats and that nobody is entitled to a seat at a medical school. The process has never been and will likely never be deemed fair to all applicants. Steps to remedy this make some happy and upset others. Like life, it ain’t always fair.

Medical schools are striving for equal representation among races and also would try harder to select for socioeconomic factors if it was possible for medical schools to obtain objective information on collective assets, familial profession, wealth, and income. I agree with you that nobody is entitled a seat in medical school, because medical schools are institutions that have no obligation or duty to treat applicants on an even playing field when it comes to offering them an education. However, if your sense of merit is that there is no difference in the average African American matriculant with a 27.3 MCAT and a 3.48 GPA compared to the average Asian American matriculant with a 32.8 MCAT and a 3.73 GPA then we are each working off very different definitions of merit. In which, my operating exploration of the word "merit" would like to see what happens when you remove race from being a factor when it comes to medical school admissions.

This post was edited.

 

[wb100]

Here we go again.

More brilliant propaganda from the peak of the ivory castle

Maybe if we repeat something enough times it will become true:
"Racist Like Me — A Call to Self-Reflection and Action for White Physicians"
"Closing the Gap — Making Medical School Admissions More Equitable"
"Patient-Experience Data and Bias — What Ratings Don’t Tell Us"

NEJM trying hard to push their agenda as of late. How much propaganda can we fit into one issue?

Probably will get banned for this thought crime post, but it needs to be said:

Having lower admission standards simply for the sake of diversity is not only wrong, it clearly doesn't work. This is evidenced by the absurd preference for minority candidates yet still decreasing rates of minorities in medical school.

Take a look at the following figures:





There is no way you can justify these statistics. It is simply racism. Lower standards based on the color of an individuals skin.

Fortunately society is coming around and race-conscious admissions policies are being outlawed. 8 states have woken up thus far. This is a step in the right direction.

Medical school admission slots are a limited resource. Medical school and residency slots are in a large part funded by government subsidies. Inappropriate handouts given to minorities who are less qualified are at the expense of society as a whole and better qualified candidates.

This is a cultural issue. Giving handouts for medical school admissions will not change certain cultures that value rap music, NBA/NFL aspirations and SWAG/YOLO over parenthood, education and family.

You are not going to fix malignant cultures by giving handouts! It only propagates the issue.

It is not the job of the government, academic institutions or society as a whole to have to subsidize certain communities and races whose poor culture results in poor socioeconomic outcomes.

Is it any wonder that Indians and Asians earn the most of any group in the united states? They have strong cultures based on family and education. And is it fair we punish these groups with higher standards? Thankfully society is finally waking up to this racism. Looking forward to the day Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard makes it to the Supreme Court.

Society will naturally stratify itself into groups and cultures. Some of these cultures will place more emphasis on achievement and education. This is the natural order of the world. Let us stop trying to swim upstream. Statistics show that trying to do so clearly doesn't work.

Frankly, if I was Black or Latino, I would be embarrassed and angry by this preferential treatment in the name of diversity. There will be forever a stain on a minorities academic career. People, for right or wrong, will assume you were admitted based on lesser standards (even if this was not the case). It does more harm than good to everyone!

We need RACE and SEX BLIND admissions.

*cringe*

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

*cringe*

See I don’t find these kinds of responses helpful or constructive. It just implies that somehow he’s morally deficient for having a different opinion. It would be better to actually explain why you disagree.

 

[OchemOficionado]

Medical schools are striving for equal representation among races and also would try harder to select for socioeconomic factors if it was possible for medical schools to obtain objective information on collective assets, familial profession, wealth, and income. I agree with you that nobody is entitled a seat in medical school, because medical schools are institutions that have no obligation or duty to treat applicants on an even playing field when it comes to offering them an education. However, if your sense of merit is that there is something in the average African American applicant with a 27.3 MCAT and a 3.48 GPA that does not apply to the average Asian American applicant with a 32.8 MCAT and a 3.73 GPA then you must be working off a very self-serving notion of merit that hopefully isn't related to the field of eugenics.

I think adcoms have been trying to improve the number of matriculates from low SES and URM backgrounds for a while now. (The application gives give schools some objective data on SES already).

I couldn't say if both students in your example have the same type of non academic merit or not without know more about them. It isn't me that is giving students the URM (or military or legacy) boosts so I would not say it's self serving.

 

[863168]

@OchemOficionado I respect your interpretation, but I completely disagree with it and feel that if a quantitative difference like that has no significant value to you then there is nothing to really discuss any further. If there is anything I would add, it would be that I am not typing a hypothetical. I was referencing the data on average matriculants posted by @Med Ed to which extent the statistical notion of the law of averages should make differences in factors such as ECs and other soft factors irrelevant when the sample population of each group is large enough.

 

[OchemOficionado]

@OchemOficionado I respect your interpretation, but I completely disagree with it and feel that if a quantitative difference like that has no significant value to you then there is nothing to really discuss any further.

Okay. I respect your stance as well. Thanks for the respectful convo

 

[atomi]

The recently published “Racist like me” article in the NEJM was one of of the most sickening things I’ve ever read by a physician.

It is disgusting that the NEJM published such inflammatory garbage. It is unfortunately not surprising that it got published.

The smugness of that lady. Just astonishing.

 

[965978]

Here we go again.

More brilliant propaganda from the peak of the ivory castle

Maybe if we repeat something enough times it will become true:
"Racist Like Me — A Call to Self-Reflection and Action for White Physicians"
"Closing the Gap — Making Medical School Admissions More Equitable"
"Patient-Experience Data and Bias — What Ratings Don’t Tell Us"

NEJM trying hard to push their agenda as of late. How much propaganda can we fit into one issue?

Probably will get banned for this thought crime post, but it needs to be said:

Having lower admission standards simply for the sake of diversity is not only wrong, it clearly doesn't work. This is evidenced by the absurd preference for minority candidates yet still decreasing rates of minorities in medical school.

Take a look at the following figures:





There is no way you can justify these statistics. It is simply racism. Lower standards based on the color of an individuals skin.

Fortunately society is coming around and race-conscious admissions policies are being outlawed. 8 states have woken up thus far. This is a step in the right direction.

Medical school admission slots are a limited resource. Medical school and residency slots are in a large part funded by government subsidies. Inappropriate handouts given to minorities who are less qualified are at the expense of society as a whole and better qualified candidates.

This is a cultural issue. Giving handouts for medical school admissions will not change certain cultures that value rap music, NBA/NFL aspirations and SWAG/YOLO over parenthood, education and family.

You are not going to fix malignant cultures by giving handouts! It only propagates the issue.

It is not the job of the government, academic institutions or society as a whole to have to subsidize certain communities and races whose poor culture results in poor socioeconomic outcomes.

Is it any wonder that Indians and Asians earn the most of any group in the united states? They have strong cultures based on family and education. And is it fair we punish these groups with higher standards? Thankfully society is finally waking up to this racism. Looking forward to the day Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard makes it to the Supreme Court.

Society will naturally stratify itself into groups and cultures. Some of these cultures will place more emphasis on achievement and education. This is the natural order of the world. Let us stop trying to swim upstream. Statistics show that trying to do so clearly doesn't work.

Frankly, if I was Black or Latino, I would be embarrassed and angry by this preferential treatment in the name of diversity. There will be forever a stain on a minorities academic career. People, for right or wrong, will assume you were admitted based on lesser standards (even if this was not the case). It does more harm than good to everyone!

We need RACE and SEX BLIND admissions.

Here’s my humble response to your post. Keep in mind that I am ORM.

America’s diversity very intensely manifests itself within its social dynamics. Here are some examples:

1) Those who are of Mexican descent are more likely to face undocumented status, or have family who face undocumented status. They may also have grown up in low-income households, or may have parents or themselves have language barriers.

2) Those who are of African American descent are more likely to grow up in unsafe areas and are likely to attend inner city schools.

3) Those who are of Asian descent in America are more likely to grow up in safe neighborhoods and stable families.

I want to place a very special emphasis on the words “more likely”. Yes, there are Asian kids that grow up in single-parent, rough homes. There are African American kids that grow up in very rich neighborhoods. But we have to look at social trends and social dynamics.

Next, we have to look at how these manifest themselves into the intersection of social healthcare and social experiences from race. Don’t you think it’s important for doctors to connect with their patients? For doctors to be able to understand the social factors behind the patient’s illness. For example, an African American dominated town in Louisiana a couple years ago was facing major issues to dirty drinking water. This no doubt caused several illnesses. Don’t you think it was socially important to have doctors who had noticed similar situations growing up and, with a higher probability, could empathize with similar living circumstances for those patients so they could be more properly cared for?

This is at the heart of diversity in medical school and healthcare. Patients come from all walks of life and have several types of people taking care of them. So they need doctors to do the same.

This leads me to your next concern: the fact that the average MCAT/GPA for URM admits is, on average, lower:

First, let’s get this right off the bat. Anyone can do really well in medical school as long as they have >500 on the MCAT, according to the AAMC. So the ability to succeed in medical school is absolutely not a concern. And second, it’s not racist to admit students with lower stats because of their race. It is about understanding that they likely have life challenges, concerns, and experiences that will allow them to connect with a quickly changing America.

This brings me to my final point: the effect that this has on ORM applicants. And my only response to that is to feel free to discuss the challenges in your life on your application. If you’ve grown up in a broken home, or if you’ve living in an unsafe town, then by all means, discuss it and write about it. Bring your unique experience to the table. Just because you are an ORM doesn’t mean that you haven’t had your own challenges in life.

 

[Med Ed]

Medical schools are striving for equal representation among races and also would try harder to select for socioeconomic factors if it was possible for medical schools to obtain objective information on collective assets, familial profession, wealth, and income.

AMCAS does generate an economic indicator based on parental education. The lowest is EO1. We can also look at the zip code(s) of your place of birth and high school and get a very good idea of whether you were economically and/or educationally disadvantaged.

While individual circumstances obviously vary, it is useful to keep in mind statistics like those from this 2014 Census Bureau report:

Median net worth by race of householder
Asian alone - $156,500
White alone, not Hispanic - $130,800
White alone - $102,800
Hispanic origin - $17,530
Black alone - $9,590

While it always pays to check under the hood, race/ethnicity is a fairly strong marker of economic circumstances.

For most medical schools the average metrics of matriculants is a pissing contest. I would love to see the USNWR replace selectivity with % of EO1 matriculants. Things would change quickly.

 

[dr_kateb]

The recently published “Racist like me” article in the NEJM was one of of the most sickening things I’ve ever read by a physician.

It is disgusting that the NEJM published such inflammatory garbage. It is unfortunately not surprising that it got published.

The smugness of that lady. Just astonishing.

I didn’t think it was that bad honestly. A little patronizing but I wouldn’t consider it inflammatory.

 

[ChiefComplaint]

Community College Transfers Outperform High Schoolers At Top Colleges, So Why Do We Ignore Them?

 

[jhamaican]

The recently published “Racist like me” article in the NEJM was one of of the most sickening things I’ve ever read by a physician.

It is disgusting that the NEJM published such inflammatory garbage. It is unfortunately not surprising that it got published.

The smugness of that lady. Just astonishing.

Keep in mind these are the same people making the decisions about guidelines for medical school admission.

Straight from the heart of the beast: pissing on the plebs below from the peak of the ivory castle: UCSF

In a town that needs a literal **** map (Human) Wasteland there are so many homeless people.

don't let them brainwash you. Think for yourself.

 

[LiveCynic]

Curious Lurker here. I've noticed that the same type of political ideology that blames unequal socio-economic backgrounds for many of the differences in educational outcomes, also rejects the "voucher" system. The voucher system would allow those from poorer socioeconomic backgrounds to have access to those same private schools and resources that supposedly give the "rich kids" the advantage they supposedly receive by going to the private schools.

 

[dr_kateb]

For example, an African American dominated town in Louisiana a couple years ago was facing major issues to dirty drinking water. This no doubt caused several illnesses. Don’t you think it was socially important to have doctors who had noticed similar situations growing up and, with a higher probability, could empathize with similar living circumstances for those patients so they could be more properly cared for?

That's something everybody should know about, whether you work in that town, just visiting or live there.

And second, it’s not racist to admit students with lower stats because of their race.

No.

This brings me to my final point: the effect that this has on ORM applicants. And my only response to that is to feel free to discuss the challenges in your life on your application. If you’ve grown up in a broken home, or if you’ve living in an unsafe town, then by all means, discuss it and write about it. Bring your unique experience to the table. Just because you are an ORM doesn’t mean that you haven’t had your own challenges in life.

There's a reason there's a 5-6 point difference on the MCAT between URM and ORM applicants, which is equivalent to about a 28% difference in percentile, and it's not because ORM don't talk about their problems.

 

[bearcalbear2019]

It's not necessarily a "problem" that needs to be solved. Most schools end up with a mixture of Sallys and Johnnys, with the ratio varying based on mission.

I will say that, overall, the forces that would push Sally to be admitted above Johnny are very, very strong.

How are the exceptions for people like Johnny made? Say they are ORM but in the 10-25th percentile of matriculants with a significant life story like Johnny's..

 

[jhamaican]

Here’s my humble response to your post. Keep in mind that I am ORM.

America’s diversity very intensely manifests itself within its social dynamics. Here are some examples:

1) Those who are of Mexican descent are more likely to face undocumented status, or have family who face undocumented status. They may also have grown up in low-income households, or may have parents or themselves have language barriers.

2) Those who are of African American descent are more likely to grow up in unsafe areas and are likely to attend inner city schools.

3) Those who are of Asian descent in America are more likely to grow up in safe neighborhoods and stable families.

I want to place a very special emphasis on the words “more likely”. Yes, there are Asian kids that grow up in single-parent, rough homes. There are African American kids that grow up in very rich neighborhoods. But we have to look at social trends and social dynamics.

Next, we have to look at how these manifest themselves into the intersection of social healthcare and social experiences from race. Don’t you think it’s important for doctors to connect with their patients? For doctors to be able to understand the social factors behind the patient’s illness. For example, an African American dominated town in Louisiana a couple years ago was facing major issues to dirty drinking water. This no doubt caused several illnesses. Don’t you think it was socially important to have doctors who had noticed similar situations growing up and, with a higher probability, could empathize with similar living circumstances for those patients so they could be more properly cared for?

This is at the heart of diversity in medical school and healthcare. Patients come from all walks of life and have several types of people taking care of them. So they need doctors to do the same.

This leads me to your next concern: the fact that the average MCAT/GPA for URM admits is, on average, lower:

First, let’s get this right off the bat. Anyone can do really well in medical school as long as they have >500 on the MCAT, according to the AAMC. So the ability to succeed in medical school is absolutely not a concern. And second, it’s not racist to admit students with lower stats because of their race. It is about understanding that they likely have life challenges, concerns, and experiences that will allow them to connect with a quickly changing America.

This brings me to my final point: the effect that this has on ORM applicants. And my only response to that is to feel free to discuss the challenges in your life on your application. If you’ve grown up in a broken home, or if you’ve living in an unsafe town, then by all means, discuss it and write about it. Bring your unique experience to the table. Just because you are an ORM doesn’t mean that you haven’t had your own challenges in life.

We have a fundamental disagreement.

I think neither race nor sex should ever play a role in admissions.

Socio-economic status, maybe.

As the article states, 8 states have already rejected race-conscious admission.

The tides are turning.

The supreme court will almost inevitably hear Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard. Many look forward to a just decision.

 

[atomi]

This is a cultural issue. Giving handouts for medical school admissions will not change certain cultures that value rap music, NBA/NFL aspirations and SWAG/YOLO over parenthood, education and family.

You are not going to fix malignant cultures by giving handouts! It only propagates the issue.

It is not the job of the government, academic institutions or society as a whole to have to subsidize certain communities and races whose poor culture results in poor socioeconomic outcomes.

Is it any wonder that Indians and Asians earn the most of any group in the united states? They have strong cultures based on family and education. And is it fair we punish these groups with higher standards?

Ironically you will be called racist by the mainstream left for saying this.

There ARE thought leaders in the black community who understand this and agree with you. They know the real problem is that so many black children are raised in homes without father figures. This has been shown over and over and over again to strongly correlate with later dropping out of high school, joining a gang, and fathering children out of wedlock. In other words, perpetuating lifelong poverty.

Societal and political efforts should work of fixing this primary problem. Instead they are focused on pushing superficial and distracting narratives in the media:

While people are systematically oppressing blacks with false stories like a Michael Brown (hands up don’t shoot), Jussie Smollett, etc.
Creating a victim mentality, which discourages personal responsibility and good decision making, and these attitudes are passed along.
The media completely ignores the huge problem of black on black violence with handguns, which account for the majority of homicides. There are multiple killings of young black men EVERY DAY in Chicago. But we don’t ever hear about it. Instead we hear the much rarer instances whenever there is a black person killed by a white cop regardless of the facts of the story (Fergueson) Or somebody that even looks a little bit white (Zimmerman). We hear when a mentally ill white person uses a scary looking black “assault” rifle to go on a mass shooting, even though the vast vast majority of gun homicides are caused by handguns. Where is the outcry to ban handguns? But nope, these stories will be plastered on the tv 24/7 for months to push this narrative that white people are running around everywhere with fully semiautomatic AR-15s killing people and white cops are regularly killing people for being black.

It’s a national travesty how politicians and the media outright use the plight of poor blacks in America to further their agenda and pander to them for votes by pushing false narratives about systematic oppression and promising handouts that will keep them perpetually poor rather than trying to do things that will actually work to fix an epidemic of bad decision making. They get away with it because they will call anybody who disagrees a racist and threaten to ruin their career and have now crested a society where you can’t engage in an intellectually honest conversation about the problem without someone trying to shut you up and call you a racist.

We shouldn’t glorify culture including things like music with lyrics that talk about gang violence, abusing and objectifying women, getting rich by dealing drugs, using drugs, frequent extreme profanity and the worst racial slurs, basically giving a big F-U to values like education and hard work by using language that is virtually unintelligible to spread a message that the thug life is where it’s at. Yet here we are and these kind of songs are mainstream and the most popular songs among the youth of America.

Simply giving handouts doesn’t work as you allude to and that just includes lowering the bar for certain apppicants based on skin color so that a Med school can appear “diverse.”

Just my opinion. Thanks for sharing yours.

 

[atomi]

“This is a cultural issue. Giving handouts for medical school admissions will not change certain cultures that value rap music, NBA/NFL aspirations and SWAG/YOLO over parenthood, education and family.” If I have to explain why this is wrong, as well as why making unfair assumption about your patients is wrong it’s time to go.

And... nailed it. Knew it would be only a matter of minutes before someone dog whistled on this very valid and logical point.

Wanting more dual parenthood and education in the black community? Racist!

 

[Med Ed]

How are the exceptions for people like Johnny made? Say they are ORM but in the 10-25th percentile of matriculants with a significant life story like Johnny's..

Decisions.

 

[Med Ed]

Yep, looks like it's about time for this thread to go away...

 

[Nurse2MD2018]

And... nailed it. Knew it would be only a matter of minutes before someone dog whistled on this very valid and logical point.

Wanting more dual parenthood and education in the black community? Racist!

You can have varying opinions without insulting an entire community of people and subjecting them to racist stereotypes. Many others were able to do just that above. People like to bring up higher ed as an isolated system and refuse to even address how systemic racism prevented generations of people from seeking a fair chance at life. Sites such as this Key Events in Black Higher Education illustrate milestones that shouldn’t even be considered milestones but they are because of this country’s history. My primary education in this country was spent in a school district that embezzled money from it’s students therefore from 3-7th grade, I never had books in school, sometimes teachers weren’t present. I worked my ass off not because of some intrinsic value but because I already knew what school was like in my home country and knew that I was being handed unfair cards. I would like to think my path would have been different if this type of environment was all I knew. Life is unfair, **** happens. Trying to set systems in place that give people in ****ty circumstances a fighting chance does not take away from the greater good.

 

[bearcalbear2019]

Decisions.

Hahah I'm just wishfully thinking because that's how I got into my undergrad but med schools admissions is a whole different monster.

Yep, looks like it's about time for this thread to go away...

Yeah it's gotten ugly, political, and racist..

 

[dr_kateb]

Yeah it's gotten ugly, political, and racist..

Not really.

 

[PeleHonuaMea]

Wow.

Smh.

For a forum that is heavily moderated, I'm shocked this has been allowed to run rampant! Threads have been closed for much less...

 

[bearcalbear2019]

Not really.

"This is a cultural issue. Giving handouts for medical school admissions will not change certain cultures that value rap music, NBA/NFL aspirations and SWAG/YOLO over parenthood, education and family."
This seems extremely targeted towards a certain population. And stereotyping. This is the kind of mindset that encourages racism and looking down on certain cultures/ races as inferior, and is toxic. Look at the Native Americans who were exterminated by white European colonial settlers because they were seen as "savage" and "uncivilized".

 

[dr_kateb]

"This is a cultural issue. Giving handouts for medical school admissions will not change certain cultures that value rap music, NBA/NFL aspirations and SWAG/YOLO over parenthood, education and family."
This seems extremely targeted towards a certain population. And stereotyping. This is the kind of mindset that encourages racism and looking down on certain cultures/ races as inferior, and is toxic.

Bolded part is right though. There's also a fair amount of truth - 80% of black babies born out of wedlock, 30% of gang members are black, etc. But fair enough, kind of stereotyping.

 

[atomi]

You can have varying opinions without insulting an entire community of people and subjecting them to racist stereotypes. Many others were able to do just that above. People like to bring up higher ed as an isolated system and refuse to even address how systemic racism prevented generations of people from seeking a fair chance at life. Sites such as this Key Events in Black Higher Education illustrate milestones that shouldn’t even be considered milestones but they are because of this countrie’s history. My primary education in this country was spent in a school district that embezzled money from it’s students therefore from 3-7th grade, I never had books in school, sometimes teachers weren’t present. I worked my ass off not because of some intrinsic value but because I already knew what school was like in my home country and knew that I was being handed unfair cards. I would like to think my path would have been different if this type of environment was all I knew. Life is unfair, **** happens. Trying to set systems in place that give people in ****ty circumstances a fighting chance does not take away from the greater good.

Um what?

Racist stereotypes? Please show me where I or anyone generalized thug culture to all blacks. Like I said, there are plenty in the black community that actively address these problems.

Im not allowed to point out problems like that need fixing in the black community because it’s insulting? Seriously?

How can I address problems in society, such as the black single mother rate and the homicide rate among young black males without being called a racist? Why is it racist to want to fix these things? Why is it racist to acknowledge facts? Why is it racist to criticize violent and harmful music?

Sorry, if you want to calll someone a racist, you’re going to have to defend that with evidence of preferential discrimination and hatred based on race. Wanting to effectively try and reduce black on black crime, single parenthood, the number of young black men in prison, etc, means I hate blacks and want to hold them back? Ok.

I mean you are literally saying that if one looks at the stats and sees this problem then you are a racist. I would argue it’s racist to NOT identify the problem and try to fix it. Are you really advocating for willful ignorance?

 

[bigal123]

So I'm just going to say something insensitive that would hurt everyone's feelings orm/urm...

When I was a traditional student ,orm low ses, I used to get upset too when I worked real hard for my grades and a urm who didn't work as hard still had leverage over me. However being out in the real world for a few years teaches you something.

You're not special, you're replaceable by a million people like you. Whether you're a 3.0 or 4.0 student you can do most jobs as effeciently as they need to be done, physicians are no exceptions. So an adcom choosing a 3.0 urm over a 4.0 orm is no more arbitrary then picking applications that meet minimum qualification standards randomly out of a box.

The only real reason that merit should count and no uncontrollable attributes like race should be factored in is when you can do something that no one else can, because then it wouldn't matter if your white, black or green you're the one calling the shots.

Until then you're 1 of 5000-7000 people adcoms can pick for a 100-200 class and get fairly consistent results.

 

[965978]

Look ADCOMS don’t just go around saying “Are you URM? Here’s your acceptance!!”

URM students have to show they are capable of handling a medical school curriculum and have the service history and clinical experience to show their dedication of helping marginalized communities.

However, they often have the personal experience of being marginalized and seeing how it affects their neighborhood, community, family, and themselves. So their person experience gives them a boost.

 

[Raryn]

The funny thing is, there's a lot of segments of the population that are just as under-represented as ethnic minorities but don't get anywhere near the effort from the other interested parties (the LCME, AAMC, schools, etc).

Here's an easy example:

Approximately 20% of the US population lives in a rural area as defined by the US government. Only about 10% of physicians practice in a rural area - so they're significantly underserved. And we have very strong evidence that students from a rural background are more likely to join a rural practice - in my opinion significantly stronger than the equivalent evidence for under-represented ethnicities. What percentage of medical students do you think are from a rural area?

Hint: It's <5%. It was 4% in 2009-2011 (the last #s I can find easily), and had steadily been declining over the last few decades - to the point where it was half the number it was historically.

Are there programs that push for more students from a rural background? Sure. But they're a drop in the bucket compared to the damn-near universal programs pushing for more ethnic minority representation. Personally, I think it's a political question about why the medical education establishment cares about one more than the other - both have a pipeline issue.

 

[Skyrich]

"This is a cultural issue. Giving handouts for medical school admissions will not change certain cultures that value rap music, NBA/NFL aspirations and SWAG/YOLO over parenthood, education and family.

You are not going to fix malignant cultures by giving handouts! It only propagates the issue.

It is not the job of the government, academic institutions or society as a whole to have to subsidize certain communities and races whose poor culture results in poor socioeconomic outcomes."


This is an actual post in 2019 lmao.

 

[dr_kateb]

"This is a cultural issue. Giving handouts for medical school admissions will not change certain cultures that value rap music, NBA/NFL aspirations and SWAG/YOLO over parenthood, education and family.

You are not going to fix malignant cultures by giving handouts! It only propagates the issue.

It is not the job of the government, academic institutions or society as a whole to have to subsidize certain communities and races whose poor culture results in poor socioeconomic outcomes."


This is an actual post in 2019 lmao.

It’s generally true, but exceptions exist.

 

[atomi]

The funny thing is, there's a lot of segments of the population that are just as under-represented as ethnic minorities but don't get anywhere near the effort from the other interested parties (the LCME, AAMC, schools, etc).

Here's an easy example:

Approximately 20% of the US population lives in a rural area as defined by the US government. Only about 10% of physicians practice in a rural area - so they're significantly underserved. And we have very strong evidence that students from a rural background are more likely to join a rural practice - in my opinion significantly stronger than the equivalent evidence for under-represented ethnicities. What percentage of medical students do you think are from a rural area?

Hint: It's <5%. It was 4% in 2009-2011 (the last #s I can find easily), and had steadily been declining over the last few decades - to the point where it was half the number it was historically.

Are there programs that push for more students from a rural background? Sure. But they're a drop in the bucket compared to the damn-near universal programs pushing for more ethnic minority representation. Personally, I think it's a political question about why the medical education establishment cares about one more than the other - both have a pipeline issue.

Rural background here who took a job in a rural area no one else wanted. I’ve been saying this for years.

Thank god a reasonable post.

You can’t just put farmer hats and overalls on us in your brochure photo op.

 

[deleted827260]

I have been observing this thread and I noticed this:

ORM from low SES want the system to give more importance to low SES instead of URM.
URM want the system to continue giving importance to URM.
ORM from rural backgrounds want the system to give more importance to rural backgrounds instead of URM.
ORM from nonrural and high SES want the system to favor statistics and will hire lawyers to pursue legal action.

Are we as humans inherently altruistic or selfish?

 

[PA_dud3]

I will be closing this thread. I believe we have deviated far enough from the main point of the OP and stand to gain little from further discussion.