Discussion in 'Pre-Medical Allopathic [ MD ]' started by throwawayaccoun, May 1, 2012.
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I would actually argue that YOU have alot to learn.
I don't smoke, but I don't think marijuana use during one's personal time when he/she is free of all clinical responsibility is deplorable. There's no lingering effect that will carry on to the next day, and marijuana isn't considered an addictive substance. You can stop smoking pot cold-turkey and won't experience withdrawal symptoms like you would with alcohol. I think this back-and-forth arguing between attending and pre-med/med student is due to a generational gap. Marijuana use has become increasingly mainstream and, as Mr. Naylor touched on, it's only a matter of time before it's universally legalized.
And yet we know that sleep deprivation actually is detrimental to health, cognitive ability, and ultimately patient outcomes. Why aren't you fighting to curtail some of the training practices that force residents and doctors to work overly long hours? In fact, what about all those selfish doctors who work so much that they don't get enough sleep, therby endangering their patients?
Have you ever knowingly broken a law?
I don't think we're arguing the ethics here. It's a fairly black or white issue. Using illicit substances (regardless of how benign they are) is illegal. You put your medical school education, career, and license at stake depending on what part of the course you're at.
Is alcohol more destructive than marijuana? Yes. Is that relevent when discussing legality? No, unless you're the lawmaker who will introduce and get legislation passed to change the legal status.
This isn't the same as jaywalking, speeding, etc. None of those actions, if not directly affecting your ability to practice, will affect your practice potential in the future unless there is an escalation of outstanding offenses.
There is no way to predict when a school will test you. I wouldn't rely on precedent with such potentially grave consequences. There is no way to predict when a clerkship site will test you. There's no reason to be playing Russian roulette. If you must relax, do it legally and have nothing to worry about.
Why should knowing matter? According to sirenomelia the law is sacrosanct. Ignorantia iuris non excusat. If he's ever broken a law why he should surrender his medical license.
This has nothing to do with the topic. But since you mentioned it I trained before your nancy work restriction rules and patients were definitely better off when we were always there even though it sucked for me/us.
You really mean all of this, don't you? I thought you were a masterful troll for the last three months, but I'm starting to realize exactly how insane you are.
MJ use is exactly the same as speeding. Both actions are equally illegal. They have comparable legal and social consequences. You are knowingly breaking the law in both cases. And neither one affects your ability to practice medicine (assuming you're not actually high at work). There is no reason why you should be fine with a history of speeding and judgmental about a history of recreational drug use.
ah right all those studies talking about how sleep deprivation affects performance are bogus...
or you havn't read them?
edit: this is more a response to "weed is bad because of performance, but sleep deprivation is not bad even though its bad for performance too" argument. I don't know specifically about studies looking at affects of those new rules.
My point is, it is not worth putting yourself in the position of possible future career consequences. Should a hospital be worried about what you're doing outside of work? No, I agree with you. Obviously intoxication on the job is a poor, poor choice. However, when speeding (which is illegal) you won't have the same legal ramifications on your career as if you're screened for drugs. You're going to get caught if you do them acutely enough. Is it fair? No. But until there is a test that can say you're using at work, you'll have to live with the consequences.
Edit: This is specifically at work/rotations. Obviously speeding puts your career at risk if you factor in loss of transportation (impoundment), MVA, etc.
Some people like to smoke a doobie and some people don't. Either way, the ethics of this discussion is pointless.
As Katt Williams says:
"I dun the research, it's just a plant, it just grow like dat. And if you happen to light it on fiya...there might be some effects!"
I have a friend who enjoys marijuana, he got goods grades, got into a very good school and I think he will be a damn fine doctor based on knowing him.
Although there are potheads who do absolutely nothing with their lives but smoke weed, I know some straight edge and smart people who occasionally partake. I don't see how it's any of my business if it is not effecting their abilities and they aren't doing it at work.
(I don't smoke pot btw, don't like it.)
And how do you know this? What basis can you back this up. There's no support or data to prove that professionals that get high on their own time over the long run are not detrimentally affected cognitively, judgement-wise, or that patients are affected or not affected.
If you change high to sleep deprived
You mean except- having BEEN there?
Funny I was actually one of the ginny pig residents used in a study time testing us with these technical obstacle courses with needle drivers, threading sutures through eyeholes, etc post-call vs fresh. Yeah I think slower times were recorded. We knew all our patients like the back of our hand. These cross-cover housestaff schemes are more like finger plugging holes in a breaking dam to keep patients barely alive until the sun rises and the real team comes in but thats just been my experience for what its worth.
FYI...its not illegal...at least not in Cali
Let's keep it civil folks.
To contribute something, there was a pretty extensive debate on this topic (and also alcohol use) in the medical student and resident forums a while back.
You reject anecdotal evidence when its presented by your opponents yet use it yourself when supporting your argument. Interesting.
If your main argument against substance abuse is that it could impact your career because licensing and credentialing bodies effectively require you to follow the law, then you're correct. No one would deny that. However if you're trying to argue that something about private pot use specifically is inherently wrong or unethical, then you're failing miserably.
thats all I'm trying to say
Sirenomelia, I don't understand what's so wrong with ignoring what people do in their private time. The only concern you should have is the merit of any individual's effort at school/work. Live and let live as long as you aren't harmed from those actions.
I know, right? I always think the first time I do something it will turn out tragically. Kind of like Brian.
He's a puritan the thought of somewhere, someone having fun scares him, if he sees an adulterer, put 'em to the lash, put a scarlet letter on 'em lol. Also it's still on the books in some states fwiw http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/PEN/THREE/O/255/255.17 and in Sirenomelia's opinion, it should be
Oh, are we still doing this thread? Hi.
Using illegal drugs makes you a criminal. Nothing I enjoy more than ensuring that users never become doctors.
At my medical school we let every applicant know that drug use will not be tolerated and that each student will be drug tested at random over the four years of attendence. Expulsion from school is the result from a positive test. At orientation we show photos of students that were expuled from previous years. Every year 1 or 2 gets caught... once we had a MS4 that used MJ on an away rotation-- gone.
The fact you are giddy over dismissing people is kind of disgusting to be honest. How is it any of your concern if the usage is when they are not on call/ seeing patients?
I hope you're doing the same thing with people who get speeding tickets. They're criminals as well.
Honestly, the fact that you enjoy publicly humiliating someone whose life is ruined is pretty upsetting to me. And, I'd rather pay money to be treated by a doctor who smokes pot at his free time than be treated by someone like you for free.
We gettin' doctor smack-talk up in here.
"Most marijuana smokers are Negroes, Hispanics, jazz musicians, and entertainers. Their satanic music is driven by marijuana, and marijuana smoking by white women makes them want to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and others. It is a drug that causes insanity, criminality, and death the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind." - Harry J. Anslinger, father of the War on Drugs.
It's called being a peon. Lindsay Lohan has been busted with coke enough times to send a normal person away for 30 years.
Moral bankruptcy win.
For what it's worth, I don't believe sirenomelia ever addressed this interesting question.
why do you assume most people willing to break the law to continue their habit are never going to have it affect their performance at work or be impaired at work at some point? Its not some innocuous hobby like backgammon. Further, you're going to get drug tested and whether or not you did pot only at home or around the clock you're going to test positive for cannibis. How is anyone else supposed to know you never used it at work? Then there is a personal moral standard that doctors should be above such behavior IMO. Would you tell your patients or want them seeing you smoking dope and acting like a fool out and about? You going to tell your colleagues and expect them to respect you and refer patients? I wouldnt. Just if i knew someone had a drinking problem, or was abusing prescription narcs or whatever outside of work. I would just assume they lacked judgement and/or were impaired and dangerous.
You do realize there is a broad line between casually using marijuana and being a stoner, just as there is a broad line between casually drinking and being an alcoholic...right?
Which bible belt state are you from, sirenomelia?
Yeah, I agree.. it's disgusting that someone actually enjoys catching students and effectively ruining their lives.
Anyway, I know plenty of pre-meds who smoke, as well as current medical students. Most of them are very intelligent, capable, hard working people. Instead of having a drink or two at night to relax, they smoke a little bit and chill out. I never heard of anyone in my circles that has had a "weed problem"/ abused marijuana. Most of them just everyday people who like to chill, eat food, and listen to music when they relax at night and perhaps on weekends.
Demonizing them and claiming they aren't capable of succeeding in the medical field seems really silly.
MARIJUANA is ILLEGAL. When you get stressed out, just do what I do...snort zoloft, okay?
And you guys want to be doctors... good luck with that. And don't forget to give customers hot sauce with their tacos.
Do you realize how stupid you sound? Marijuana use is increasingly becoming socially acceptable. http://www.gallup.com/poll/150149/record-high-americans-favor-legalizing-marijuana.aspx
Not in medicine.
The OP asked a question, I gave an answer. Don't like it? Good.
Dan give up and stop giving objective data that goes against any notion that being an innocennt druggie is bad in any way when we have gallup polls from the jackass public supporting it as acceptable. One poster on this thread said the NIH is phony and uncredible on another thread of this topic.
And to all of you....what you do outside of work does matter. In fact much of the time an action against a licensee does not involve their practice. Ive seen a parade of clowns who used coke, wrote scripts to friends, had sex with patients, and even a guy who was arrested for slapping ho's at a strip club- when they got into professional jeopardy all say the same thing as the people here- its my personal life so why does it matter?
I think you need to differentiate between assault charges and someone who uses marijuana, if you can't see the vast gulf, I'd be shocked. Dan's objective data is a bit more interesting when you go to the site. It's a prohibitionist organization, it cites some highly reputable sources like the NIH and some that are substantially less so such as drug watch which cites suicides as death by marijuana, as well as accidental deaths, it states there are 581 deaths due to marijuana, where that number comes from is impossible to say. Let us assume that it is true for a second, which is unlikely, then it looks marvelously safe compared to alcohol which causes over 80,000 deaths nationwide http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/DACH_ARDI/...&M=E2769A53-0BFC-453F-9FD7-63C5AA6CE5D7&F=&D= or tobacco which causes 400,000 http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/
The fact an activity is risky like alcohol or tobacco shouldn't mean that it should be banned prohibition has been a failure and has caused petty criminals to gain empires. Prohibition of alcohol caused needless deaths and the failed war on drugs has done the same. I do not nor will I ever try marijuana, however people have a right to choose what they put in their bodies. From a public policy perspective as well as one of individual liberty it is clear that drug war has failed.
Don't, because this will happen to you ;p
Daniel Chong, the UC San Diego student who was left in a Drug Enforcement Agency holding cell for nearly five days, said the time spent in his cell was a life-altering experience.
Before holding a press conference Tuesday afternoon, the 23-year-old spoke with NBCSanDiego and said he was increasingly worried throughout the days he spent in a 5 ft. by 10 ft. cell, where he could not spread his arms out wide.
Source: DEA Ignored All My Cries: Student | NBC San Diego
I think you're all missing the most important point in this discussion: smoking marijuana is bad for your lungs. It's important to make informed health decisions as future medical professionals, you know. Critical thinking is very important: without it people tend to quickly become hypocritical.
Uhh, not that I doubt your intentions, but I don't see the relevance to this thread in your post, given that:
Also: he must have a really large wingspan if 10ft isn't large enough to spread his arms out wide.
Is there a test to determine if a recreational smoker is high at that exact moment? I know theres obviously breathalyzers for alcohol but im yet to hear of one that can determine that someone is high at that moment as compared to say 8 hours previously. If there is one shame to me for not finding it, but this is my main problem with the idea of smoking as a doctor. We have cheap, accurate and immediate tests that can tell a persons BAC immediately so there can be concrete evidence if someone comes into work drunk. For smoking, not so much. How do we know someone wasn't high the night before, or was high earlier but not anymore etc. all i know of is drug tests but if someone smokes recreationally it would be much harder to determine if they are smoking and having the effects fully wear off before coming into work. someone who simply looks like they've been smoking isn't grounds for firing but a positive test indicating they are impared in any way while interacting with patients is. You want to smoke on your own time? Whatever, but don't try and practice medicine while you're still feeling the effects.
That is one of the main reasons why I am against doctors smoking recreationally. But seriously though, is there a smoking equivalent of a breathalyzer? That might change my views on it.
Your entire argument is predicated on the legality of marijuana use. If (and by public opinion, it's is more when marijuana becomes legal, the stigma about usage is alleviated and the loss of license and/or professional career will become greatly diminished. If you still think physicians should be abstinent from marijuana use, you should also be advocating random breathalyzers during rounds or routine BAC checks.
For the most part, people get into medical school and become physicians because academically and socially, they are exemplary individuals. In order to become a physician you have to demonstrate some responsibility and commitment and most medical student exhibit that. Obviously there will always be a few who slip through the cracks, but you seem to be obsessed with persecuting these few individuals and tarnishing anyone in medicine that recreationally uses a fairly safe and short-lasting drug. Your evidence is purely anecdotal and your argument is based on legality and not morality. If you hold that mindset, I wouldn't have a hard time believing that you would have participated in Nazi Germany under the guise that you were simply following the law and order of the time and only doing what "was required"
Wait, did I just compare you to a Nazi..... Obviously that is ludicrous, spiteful, ridiculous, and stupid but the sentiments that you cast over marijuana users are of that extreme and have no basis in evidence or any sense for that matter. It is insulting. You say that private use is a factor in workplace activity, but if marijuana becomes legal, smoking marijuana will not shed any negative light on the institution you represent (unless it is full of close-minded individuals like yourself), it provides a relaxing experience for the stresses of a professional in the medical world, and, if done responsibly, is as harmless as some of the top physicians in this country who go to a bar on the weekends or drink beer while watching the game on Sundays.
Again, morality does not equal legality and for someone who has gone through so much education,you can do your homework and agree that marijuana is the least harmful of any drug (including alcohol) in terms of addictiveness (none), impairment (far less than alcohol), and inappropriate behavior (I have never heard of anyone that smokes that has become violent, agitated, or in any way, reckless).
You do realize the difference between affecting someone's performance at work and having consequences because it is illegal?
I don't understand how do you just assume moral high ground based on what the law is saying? Maybe smoking weed every day is bad, but what is always worse is to look down on people especially when their lives are in trouble. From the comment above you come across as someone who is actually happy with others loosing their medical licences for reasons not related to medicine. The fact that you're so quick to pass on judgments on people who you know practically nothing about and trigger-happy to get them out of medicine as soon as possible just because because their behavior defied your view of morality is bothersome. Where is your empathy for your fellow physicians? Not even once have you mentioned rehab or getting them some sort of counseling or other outside help. No, lets just get rid of them. They can all go work in Taco Bell because only people who have never done anything illegal or even morally questionable in their lives deserve to be doctors.
And my question still stands. Have you ever knowingly broken the law?
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