Master vs Doctorate question

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Yea and calling docs drug pushers and how they misdiagnose all the time and the PT gets it right wasn't the pot calling the kettle black...later...if you're so happy in your career then enjoy just don't go back later and expect new practice rights you aren't prepared or legally allowed

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Yes it's skewed, not biased, because you only see the pts that end up being referred to you, so your weak anecdotal evidence means nothing

Pts may understand their symptoms but that's it and webmd and everything else they try to dx and treat themselves is dangerous...although I am all for a pt reading up on their condition once they have been dx

So your solution offers no benefit...you refer when you recognize "other"...docs refer once a mechanical problem that benefits from PT, but at the same time other medical and health issues are taken into account and assessed (something a PT can't do)

Sounds like going to the doc first provides more benefit and going to the PT first doesn't change the amount of referrals or cost.

My first comment is something you state in a later post...

You have a chance to see "Physical Therapy" in your local gym 4 days a week, so therefore you understand what PT is all about. I'm glad you've seen, in your eyes, the entire process of PT.

It is a requirement in most, if not all PT schools, the PT student observe many of the professionals that they are receiving referrals from - PCP, GP, Orthos, DPM, etc. Just to give an example of one Ortho I observed, his average time spent actually in the room w/ the patient was approximately 2 minutes - spanning anywhere from 30 seconds to about 8 minutes. After about the 1st half dozen patients he saw, I was in shocked and started keeping track of this. Now again I know this is not always the case, but I have observed several physicians, like I've stated previously, and the RN spends more time w/ the patient than the physician usually does.

What I see, are patients that are referred to me w/ their almight "diagnosis" from their physician, so automatically they should be healed since this physician has just labeled them, in many cases, with a diagnosis such as lumbago, cervicalgia, knee pain, hip pain, shoulder pain...that's great! One of the most common problems I see that is incorrectly diagnosed is shoulder pain - specifically adhesive capsulitis, rotator cuff tendonopathy, impingement, etc. One of the very 1st things PTs learn in school is differential diagnosis regarding these issues, not because of their complexity, but because of how simple it is to differentiate between each issue. However time, and time, and time again it is commonly diagnosed incorrectly. It's one thing to just diagnose someone w/ something, it's another thing to diagnose someone correctly. Now I'm not saying this happens all the time, I'm just saying that something that should be very simple, is done incorrectly ALL THE TIME, and I'm sure many PTs here would agree with me.

Finally, most patients that would come to a PT first understand why they are going there. They realize that more than likely, their issue/pain is due to some type of injury, and not a pathological process. Therefore, in most cases, this patient we would be seeing will require, or would benefit from PT to treat their complaint. I do realize what you are saying, that a patient can be given an "clean bill of health" in regards to all of their possible medical conditions and how they may or may not be relating to their current complaint. Someone older with multiple medical conditions more than likely will want to go to a physician to make sure it isn't something else; however, if they were to go to a PT (lets say for LBP), and the PT was unable to determine the cause of their back pain, or noticed determined their back pain may be coming from some type of pathology, then yes this person would be sent to a physician for further evaluation.

But this would be based off of the patients preference/choice on who they would like to see in regards to their complaints. Again, as I said before, in the majority of musculoskeletal injuries/issues, the patient has a fairly good understanding that their problem is an injury and not a disease, not vice versa. So while I agree w/ your argument, I also feel that your argument is in the minority of cases when ruling out other possible causes of the issue in question.
 
Yea and calling docs drug pushers and how they misdiagnose all the time and the PT gets it right wasn't the pot calling the kettle black...later...if you're so happy in your career then enjoy just don't go back later and expect new practice rights you aren't prepared or legally allowed

No one said that physicians are drug pushers and that they misdiagnose all the time. What was said, is that when you go to a physician w/ a problem, you expect to receive some type of pill or prescription for something. It is very rare that you leave the office w/ much else than that, and if not that, then you receive a referral to another practitioner.

On the misdiagnosis comment, you go on to rant and rave about the almighty diagnosis and how physicians are the only ones that can diagnose, and do it correctly. I was just stating that many patients I get are misdiagnosed very often.

We enjoy our profession, that is why our profession is one of the top rated professions in employee satisfaction. All we are asking for in many cases, is a little respect.

A great example I commonly use is an ortho that definately had no clue what type of education we receive, and during a discussion that several of my colleagues were having w/ him, he posed the question "I'm not sure how many of you have seen a cadaver before, did any of you do cadaver dissections in school?" To his amazement, all 20 PTs raised their hands while he was in disbelief. Then to our surprise, he made the comment "that's pretty amazing, because there are several MD programs now that don't even offer cadaver dissections." Wow, were we surprised!
 
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Well that's unfortunate.

Let me preface this by saying that I don't post on here that much for this exact outcome--I have no desire to engage in cyber pissing matches with people I don't know and who don't know me. As someone who reads this site for macabre entertainment more than anything else, I'm sort of embarassed for all three of the main players on this thread, as you all have done a dis-service to your respective professions by letting it devolve to this point. I guess banning someone was the only way it was going to end, but there's no right and wrong parties in this.

This particular thread and topic though wouldn't allow me to hold my peace. Full disclosure--I'm a physician, training to be one of those kooky PM&R docs homeboy was referring to (if you've even heard of the speciality you probably don't respect it, but that's not what this is about.) I'm not going to throw stats around; what I have to say is strictly my opinion and based on my own personal philosophy and core values (which is perfectly fine to banter about on online chat forum by the way!). My whole issue with midlevels (not just PTs) trying to expand their scope of practice is that everybody is trying to do what I do without having done what I did. To say that the 3 post-bac years you spent specializing in musculoskeletal training is equivalent or even better than the 8 years I will have spent learning the principles of medicine, then specializing in musculoskeletal and rehabilitative medicine is slightly insulting. The joke's on me right? Those extra 5 years--what a waste...

I have nothing but respect for physical therapy ( I get asked if that's what I'm training to be on an almost weekly basis:rolleyes:) and I think in general the lay person and medical profession does as well. I liken the profession to dentistry--nobody llikes going to therapy, because it hurts or its boring or they think its stupid, but they go (kicking and screaming sometimes) because they know it will help them feel better. And again, having worked in interdisciplinary rehab hospitals, when physicians and therapists (and nurses and neuropsych and social work, etc) work together in a team based approach to get the patient better, its a beautiful thing. Truly beautiful. What's so wrong with having a patient get checked out by a doc, get imaging done, get written a prescrption for therapy, and then y'all running with it? Constant feedback and troubleshooting between the doc and therapist, until the patient is treated? My main philosophy as a rehab is doc is how can I maximize function in this patient so they can participate in therapy. I manange their medical comobidities so they can do therapy. I manage spasticity so they can do therapy. I make sure their pain is controlled so they do therapy. I address their cognitive and mental health impairments so they have the wherewithal and volition to do therapy. I can go on but I think you get the picture...

The argument was that it takes too long for patients to get an appointment--that's a system flaw, but you pin it on physicians as if its their fault.

Again, I have no desire to be argumentative or inflammatory; it's a conversation worth having and one with no easy answers. Just thought I'd add another perspective, since the discussion was pretty lopsided in one direction. Peace and blessings.
 
Phoenix, thank your for you post.

I hope that by reading many of the previous posts, you understand that our posts were in the direction of the other party (individual) and not as offensive towards your profession. I completely agree w/ everything you said, and understand that w/ a team approach that includes all parties (each respecting the others practice) is the best way to treat each and every patient.

Many of my arguments were against an individual, and not a profession, as I was using many of those examples to clarify that no one person is perfect and often times it takes a different perspective from another practitioner to best treat a patient. I do not feel that w/ my level of education I am only competant of performing what I am told to perform, and that I can think, and treat as I feel appropriate with regards to the patients current condition - which is what I was trying to get across.

I do realize the flaws in the system w/ regards to insurance practices, etc, slowing down the patients ability to get the services they require in a timely manner.

As I've stated in other posts, I do no believe PTs are trying to expand on their scope of practice, I just believe that our increased education level is being used to better prepare ourselves to best treat each and every patient.

Thanks again for you input and I hope you did not take our comments personally as they were directed towards a very disrespectful individual who was obviously only trying to "bully" or bash our profession.
 
Phoenix,

Similar to Ryan, most of my posts in this thread were dedicated to knocking some sense into an individual.

Your post is very interesting to me because it has less to do with a physical therapist's ability to accurately screen for underlying pathology, and more to do with upsetting the balance of the healthcare team. I'd like to address a very important point in your message. Assuming they are in there right mind: 1) No physical therapist would ever compare their education with an MD's education, 2) No physical therapist would pretend to be able to do your job, and 3) Every physical therapist will agree that a physician should be intimately involved in the care of complicated patients.

With these three points made, it is my opinion (and that of most PTs) that expanding a PT's scope to include the various elements discussed in these posts does not stand in contradiction...this expansion merely allows us to better serve the patient. Of most healthcare professionals, by the very nature of their work, physical therapists spend the most time with patients. As such, we have a unique opportunity to assess the subtle changes in a patient's condition or pick up on important findings that may have not presented at the time of evaluation. With this in mind, a better educated PT strengthens the team you described earlier. Would you not agree?

Similarly, in the typical PT outpatient setting, the "team" does not exist in the same manner as you described. Largely, it is how Ryan described it in an earlier post: useless script is received accompanied by pointless imaging, PT evaluates and determines cause of dysfunction, PT treats.
 
Phoenix,

Similar to Ryan, most of my posts in this thread were dedicated to knocking some sense into an individual.

Your post is very interesting to me because it has less to do with a physical therapist's ability to accurately screen for underlying pathology, and more to do with upsetting the balance of the healthcare team.


True. Medicine is hierarchial--always has been, always will be; I don't make the rules, I just play by them. To me, this is a classic example of having too many chiefs and not enough indians. The natural question, of course, is what gives the physician the right to be the chief? I'll argue it's because we have the most extensive training, but more importantly, the broadest, therefore allowing us the best vantage point of the big picture. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't take this as me beating on my chest; in any team situation there has to be a leader, but an exceptional leader knows their strengths and weaknesses and brings in experts to complement the weaknesses.

I'd like to address a very important point in your message. Assuming they are in there right mind: 1) No physical therapist would ever compare their education with an MD's education, 2) No physical therapist would pretend to be able to do your job, and 3) Every physical therapist will agree that a physician should be intimately involved in the care of complicated patients.

My rational mind tells me everyone believes this, but some of the posts by people on here sometimes will lead to me to feel otherwise. Ah the joys of internet forums:rolleyes:

With these three points made, it is my opinion (and that of most PTs) that expanding a PT's scope to include the various elements discussed in these posts does not stand in contradiction...this expansion merely allows us to better serve the patient.


See above. I'm not 100% sold on the data that's currently out there about outcome and quality measures. I'm just not.

Of most healthcare professionals, by the very nature of their work, physical therapists spend the most time with patients.

Can't deny this.

As such, we have a unique opportunity to assess the subtle changes in a patient's condition or pick up on important findings that may have not presented at the time of evaluation. With this in mind, a better educated PT strengthens the team you described earlier. Would you not agree?

More education is alway better; I won't ever be against that. And I agree that you can pick up on more subtle findings over time--that's the beauty of the give and take I described in my first post. I'm just trying to say that having both parties involved is ALWAYS better, not just either or.

Similarly, in the typical PT outpatient setting, the "team" does not exist in the same manner as you described. Largely, it is how Ryan described it in an earlier post: useless script is received accompanied by pointless imaging, PT evaluates and determines cause of dysfunction, PT treats.

Completely agree about the outpatient model. And as far as shotty scripts go, incompetency is incompetncy, period; however I think that reflects more on the individual rather than the model of care.
 
Wow formatting is way jacked on that--I tried to respond to your individual points in the text. Guess you can tell I don't do this very often...
 
Banned for trolling! I knew that guy was up to no good!
 
I think MotionDoc and Phoenix summed everything up w/ couple of great posts! Now, I would like to say we end there on a good note, and either get back to the original post on the thread, or just close it all together.
 
It's a NOP (non orthopedic providers) not PCP in the study, so these could be docs, nps, pa's, techs or whoever

And yea journal of PT, low impact
 
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Specifically it was family practice, internal medicine, emergency physician, podiatrist, clinical nurse practitioners, physician assistants, and a pediatric physician. Sorry to generalize.
 
It's a NOP (non orthopedic providers) not PCP in the study, so these could be docs, nps, pa's, techs or whoever

And yea journal of PT, low impact

It is a niche journal. You can't expect a high number of citations when the type of research is performed by a tiny fraction of scientists.
 
What were the cases involved? Were they of the simplest type? This abstract is weak at best and retrospective studies are the least influential of all. This study could have been done experimentally and in a prospective fashion
 
What were the cases involved? Were they of the simplest type? This abstract is weak at best and retrospective studies are the least influential of all. This study could have been done experimentally and in a prospective fashion

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15963232?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17138843

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17484321

Here is various other reading. To say the least, there is movement to truly quantify a PT's ability to practice in an autonomous position...

I am sure other posters will be able to provide other references.
 
So for the first link 21% of the time they did not make the correct referral in a CRITICAL medical situation...scary
 
For the second link I don't see a link for the "previously published data" on physicians....but med students, interns, and residents shouldn't be used for comparison as their training is not complete...why isn't the test that the PT made up (another issue because they don't have medical background to put that in the test) published?....also orthopedists scored higher by PTs own account...sounds like pts should go to an orthopedist then from them get a referral to a PT! Ya think!

And this is your own lit
 
For the second link I don't see a link for the "previously published data" on physicians....but med students, interns, and residents shouldn't be used for comparison as their training is not complete...why isn't the test that the PT made up (another issue because they don't have medical background to put that in the test) published?....also orthopedists scored higher by PTs own account...sounds like pts should go to an orthopedist then from them get a referral to a PT! Ya think!

And this is your own lit

Studies have shown the difference between orthopedists and PTs as not statistically significant. I'd refrain from making conclusions until all the evidence is in front of you...and know full well, there isn't sufficient evidence out yet for anyone to be comfortable with a conclusion.
 
79% correct in critical...meaning 21% incorrect...you re-read

This is your own link and it clearly states the orthopedist is more knowledgeable and hence preffered....something docs knew all along
 
79% correct in critical...meaning 21% incorrect...you re-read

This is your own link and it clearly states the orthopedist is more knowledgeable and hence preffered....something docs knew all along

Similar to not making a diagnosis based on a single test, rather a preponderance of data, do not make a conclusion based on a single study, rather a preponderance of the evidence. As much as I respect your opinion, many 'docs' I know believe contrary to you.

To summarize that main points from that particular study, although all therapists made the correct diagnosis 80% of the time (this is where you stopped), 50% of therapists made a correct diagnosis 100% of the time, and therapists with orthopedic specializations were over 2 times more likely to be right 100% of the time. The point of this article is to promote physical therapy specialization. Other articles have pointed to doctoral level trained PTs better than master level, and other articles have made other conclusions. You have to understand that there is an internal struggle within the profession, and there is a ton of disparity in practice ability.
 
No I read the whole thing, still doesn't change the fact..it's right there

And that only half of the PTs are making the correct DX all the time is not reassuring...again scary....only 12 scenarios they dont even include
 
No I read the whole thing, still doesn't change the fact..it's right there

And that only half of the PTs are making the correct DX all the time is not reassuring...again scary....only 12 scenarios they dont even include

Again, I am not praising this evidence as a panacea for the current PT struggle...are you quite certain that all physicians would score 100% all the time? I'd like to think so, but do you really think that's reality?

The point of the article is that the added education and specialization of the profession is suggesting a positive difference...

Go back to the early 1900s, and assess the quality of physician practice... On seeing the horrid results that less than half the profession was embracing modern medicine, would you then scratch it off as hopeless? The evolution of physical therapy is not much different...but in less than 20 years, it has come an incredibly long way. The only thing I have left to say is: give it time, and consider the patient.
 
I'll do both, but the fact is there are already qualified physicians performing these functions....and the physicians would be doing way better than 50%....don't quote the article if you don't think it's helping your argument...
 
and here we go again...

rcheeley said it all, its pointless
 
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