Match Day 2016! How'd it go?

[MacDonaldTriad]

I'm just venting and pointing out that post interview communication is awkward both directions. I didn't mean to offend, but really, the programs would welcome any effort to impose rules on this.

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[deleted736562]

I really respect you as a poster, but I really feel like this is a super paternalistic and dismissive view of applicants, especially when this thread has shown people being misled in much more direct ways and that up to 1/10 experience flagrant match violations in these communications...

Does it happen? Sure. But that's not the thing most people who would like to see rule changes are complaining about.

Yes, the applicants say something and the PD's frame it in something completely different. We're not "complaining" over "you make a great fit" generic talk. No one believes that this is a "promise" for anything.

There's quite a large grey zone between generic talk and straight out promises that PDs are going to match you to rank. My hunch is that many PDs get as close as possible to the second without giving direct promises (although apparently the latter happen too), so they can make applicants feel loved in an attempt to rank them higher. Maybe that's OK, maybe it's not. That's irrelevant. But when I read a gushing email in a communication that I didn't even start, I don't reasonably expect that they send this to half their ranking list. As someone else said, they are engaging in marketing for a quite sensitive topic and marketing is fundamentally meant to exaggerate and mislead.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

And even those that hate the marketing, would be disadvantaged if they don't participate in it. Rank programs as you like them and don't change your list based on your guess as to which programs are or aren't interested in you.

 

[Rogue Penguin]

I emailed a couple programs I failed to match with to see if I was unknowingly blowing my interviews somehiw. I got one response back saying they rank partially based on interest and they "didn't know I was so interested". I contacted this program more than any other with updates, etc. I thought I'd displayed interest without being obnoxious or overbearing.

What is a reasonable way for an applicant to clearly express interest?

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

If a program is playing this right, their perception of your interest, or lack of interest shouldn't be relevant. Similarly, your guess as to how much interest we have in you shouldn't change your list. I have had a lot of conversations with residents not in our program who say that they would have rather matched with us. Many of them were reachable, and I ask them why they didn't rank us above where they ended up. You would be surprised how many say "because I didn't think you were interested in me". How interested in you we are is not up to you and you are way too involved to be able to see this accurately anyway.

 

[Rogue Penguin]

If a program is playing this right, their perception of your interest, or lack of interest shouldn't be relevant. Similarly, your guess as to how much interest we have in you shouldn't change your list. I have had a lot of conversations with residents not in our program who say that they would have rather matched with us. Many of them were reachable, and I ask them why they didn't rank us above where they ended up. You would be surprised how many say "because I didn't think you were interested in me". How interested in you we are is not up to you and you are way too involved to be able to see this accurately anyway.

I didn't think my interest would matter, so I was surprised by the response. I guess I can see why a program might prefer strongly interested applicants. Maybe they're more likely to be happy at the program and perform better? Idk how true that would end up being IRL.

 

[splik]

I didn't think my interest would matter, so I was surprised by the response. I guess I can see why a program might prefer strongly interested applicants. Maybe they're more likely to be happy at the program and perform better? Idk how true that would end up being IRL.

the more desperate someone is the easier they are to exploit and beat into submission

 

[OldPsychDoc]

the more desperate someone is the easier they are to exploit and beat into submission

Yep--that's what we're all about...
The beatings will continue until morale improves!

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Classic Animal house, it is the perfect learning environment.

 

[FlowRate]

I emailed a couple programs I failed to match with to see if I was unknowingly blowing my interviews somehiw. I got one response back saying they rank partially based on interest and they "didn't know I was so interested". I contacted this program more than any other with updates, etc. I thought I'd displayed interest without being obnoxious or overbearing.

What is a reasonable way for an applicant to clearly express interest?

As much as I loved Utah, they were the program that gave me the strongest sense that they cared whether you wanted to go there or not. There was a comment from the PD that went something like "if you decide you'd like to come here, please let us know." That was said to the whole group of applicants, not during my interview, if I remember correctly.

 

[Psychotic]

I emailed a couple programs I failed to match with to see if I was unknowingly blowing my interviews somehiw. I got one response back saying they rank partially based on interest and they "didn't know I was so interested". I contacted this program more than any other with updates, etc. I thought I'd displayed interest without being obnoxious or overbearing.

What is a reasonable way for an applicant to clearly express interest?

After every interview, I sent a very brief thank you note, and in it I expressed my enthusiasm for the program. So it wouldn't come across as too boilerplate, I would tailor my comments for each program with something specific from the day, about the program. If I had any substantive questions that truly weren't answered during the interview or in the handouts or on the website, I would ask it, but I found this to be the exception, not the rule.

I think that solo thank you approach I describe is an appropriate time to express enthusiasm and interest. Another way is, given the opportunity during the interview itself, to express enthusiasm and not play it "too cool for school."

Beyond that, I think additional emails are overkill, and can come across as too needy.

 

[rkaz]

I realize some of you may be a bit disappointed in your match....

I would just encourage you to go in with an open heart and mind. Although I was very happy with the place I matched a few years ago, I was initially a tad bit saddened to not get into a place I had ranked higher than my program (as I liked the location of the other place better). However, after coming here, I have completely fallen in love with my program. It is an excellent fit for me, and my psychiatry attendings have been so incredibly supportive and nurturing. I think the only malignant attending I had was in one of my medicine rotations... but the psychiatry faculty have been incredible. In fact, I found out some negative things about the other program after the match (relatively speaking, as that place is still a good residency choice)... and knowing what I know now, that place would have been much further down my list, and I'd have ranked my program #1 from the beginning. I feel I totally lucked out to have matched where I did. I've heard some tales of people who were really upset and disappointed about the place they matched initially, though a few years later they were totally fine with it and liked their program.

Go in with a positive attitude ready to work hard and learn all you can about this amazing field of psychiatry, and you may be quite pleasantly surprised.

 

[eli20]

I realize some of you may be a bit disappointed in your match....

I would just encourage you to go in with an open heart and mind. Although I was very happy with the place I matched a few years ago, I was initially a tad bit saddened to not get into a place I had ranked higher than my program (as I liked the location of the other place better). However, after coming here, I have completely fallen in love with my program. It is an excellent fit for me, and my psychiatry attendings have been so incredibly supportive and nurturing. I think the only malignant attending I had was in one of my medicine rotations... but the psychiatry faculty have been incredible. In fact, I found out some negative things about the other program after the match (relatively speaking, as that place is still a good residency choice)... and knowing what I know now, that place would have been much further down my list, and I'd have ranked my program #1 from the beginning. I feel I totally lucked out to have matched where I did. I've heard some tales of people who were really upset and disappointed about the place they matched initially, though a few years later they were totally fine with it and liked their program.

Go in with a positive attitude ready to work hard and learn all you can about this amazing field of psychiatry, and you may be quite pleasantly surprised.

I'm all for being positive, but this is all basically ego defense. Seeing as the options for switching programs are few & far between, as well as difficult and potentially career-destroying it's not surprising that the vast majority trend towards rationalizing as their match as the best possible outcome.

 

[675015]

I'm all for being positive, but this is all basically ego defense. Seeing as the options for switching programs are few & far between, as well as difficult and potentially career-destroying it's not surprising that the vast majority trend towards rationalizing as their match as the best possible outcome.

Why would switching programs be career destroying?

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Why would switching programs be career destroying?

About a week ago we discussed how residents leaving a program can be, but isn’t necessarily a sign of problems in a program. Well, on the flip side, residents who change programs can be problems, but this isn’t always the case. Residents do get into trouble and sometime quit before the remediation documentation closes in, but sometimes their spouse just gets into a grad school on the other side of the country. If you are more like the disaffected angry the grass must be greener type, the odds of taking your problems with you is very high. Are other’s happy in your current program, or is everyone leaving? You will get to your new program and feel mistreated and look to a third program. The ABPN does not like trainees who split their training among three different programs (unless Katrina took your program out or something). You will be asked to train for an extra year most likely. Changing specialties or moving for very good family reasons is fine, but you better like program #2. If you want more than one move, you are a bit of a pariah.

 

[pinkyj731]

I matched at my home program, I'm not very thrilled about it but I guess it was expected considering the fact that I had a few red flags and my program was a safety net for me (bottom of the list). At least I don't have to move. although it would have been nice to get to go to a bigger city.

 

[Bluejay87]

Now that I have had some time to process everything - I did not match. I was able to SOAP into a nice family medicine program in my home state and I am happy about that.

My analysis: I seriously underestimated the disadvantage I was at as an IMG. I thought that once I had gotten an interview at a program, I was on equal footing with the AMGs. But of course that was not true. If Applicant X and I do exactly the same at the interview, but X is an AMG...of course they would rank her higher. I can see now that I did not have enough humility throughout the process. Although I had a good number of interviews, they were almost all at university-based programs while I turned down almost all invites from community programs.

My advice to IMGs applying in psych in the future is to apply to (and rank) plenty of small community-based programs and don't be afraid to apply to FM as a backup. I wish I had done these things - although, again, I am happy with the program where I ended up. But I got lucky.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

As the number of medical students per class keeps growing and the number of residency slots doesn’t, attending an IMG school will become less and less of an option. I’m glad to hear you landed OK. It looks fairly certain that this will be less and less likely over the next few years. The take home message is that it will get somewhat easier to get into a US medical school, but if you don’t, you may need to throw in the towel. This is simple supply and demand algebra.

 

[FlowersFromTheSun]

I think it's generally good advice to avoid interviewing at all "reaches" especially if you have your heart set on a certain location or psychiatry in general (If DO/IMG or red flags). Don't just interview at the top program(s) in your favorite area(s). You should also interview at and rank back-ups in the location(s) you most want. I fell victim to this mistake too. All my top programs were reaches for me and I went into making my rank list and Match Day overconfident that I would match at one of them. I'm now upset with the location I'm headed for and wish I hadn't canceled interviews with "weaker" programs in more desirable places. Also... make sure every single rank on your list is how you want it to be. Don't listen to anyone who's telling you the lower part of your list doesn't matter.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Also... make sure every single rank on your list is how you want it to be.

This!