Matching Specialties as DO

[OMSRealWeebHours]

I'm curious about what test scores and research experience would be needed as a DO to get into specialties such as Psych, PM&R, Derm, or Rads. I may be able to do FM but I certainly cannot ever see myself doing IM or Surgical for the long haul. I know there is a disadvantage applying to basically anything outside FM or IM for DOs but I am sure it's not impossible (except Derm lmao)

Insight from current Residents/Attending/Matched MS4s appreciated! I don't really care how competitive the program is, in fact I'd probably prefer a rural residency as opposed to working in an academic hospital.

Thanks for your time to respond!

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[theletterB]

Your best bet is using the residency explorer (residencyexplorer.org), or paying for the FREIDA residency database for solid numbers and information for each program you're interested in.

I can tell you now you'll need a good Step 2 for PMnR, Derm, and Rads for sure no matter the program. Even supposed DO-friendly programs have still wanted Step for those specialties. Derm is also very heavy in research.

I'm not the most familiar with Psych, but historically it hasn't been the most competitive. It is getting increasingly competitive due to the lifestyle appeal and shift towards telemedicine. I will say we need good psychiatrists who care about their patients and are passionate about the field if you're leaning that way. FM is also a very noteworthy field. We need good family med docs who are true jack-of-all-trades, and you can make a very good practice for yourself having good relationships with subspecialists.

Each of these specialties you've mentioned are also very different from each other. Maybe try taking the careers in medicine specialty interest quiz (careersinmedicine.aamc.org) to narrow down your interests as well.

Last note, don't let being a DO discourage you from anything, ever. DOs are matching into every specialty, including Derm. A colleague of mine in my class just matched Derm as a DO. Another matched Orthopedic surgery, and a year before we had a guy match Neurosurgery. It can be done. Show programs the numbers and exams they want and be a proud osteopathic physician.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Derm is likely out of the question unless you have a personal connection. Nobody from my low tier MD school has matched derm in like 4 years

 

[DO2015CA]

Derm is likely out of the question unless you have a personal connection. Nobody from my low tier MD school has matched derm in like 4 years

Shooters shoot. It’s still a pipe dream most of the time but there have been more matches recently nationwide for DOs than when I was in med school. I think this is because some of the former DO programs transitioned over and have expanded seats a little.

 

[T30MedGuy]

Derm is likely out of the question unless you have a personal connection. Nobody from my low tier MD school has matched derm in like 4 years

I don't think this is entirely true. Derm is very difficult to get, but bottom tier schools matched to derm also, not often though. There are previous AOA programs that successfully merged over and continue to take DOs only. The MDs refer to these programs as DO programs because they only take DOs. I have also heard DOs refering to programs as MD programs because there are no DOs on their roster. Your best chance is with DO programs.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Derm is likely out of the question unless you have a personal connection. Nobody from my low tier MD school has matched derm in like 4 years

My DO school has had several the past few years

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

My DO school has had several the past few years

True but you never know their personal circumstances, right? For all you know they are the son of a PD or dating the chief resident. Also most DO schools have like hundreds of students so usually by chance there might be a couple of these cases

 

[yougotquestions]

I'm curious about what test scores and research experience would be needed as a DO to get into specialties such as Psych, PM&R, Derm, or Rads. I may be able to do FM but I certainly cannot ever see myself doing IM or Surgical for the long haul. I know there is a disadvantage applying to basically anything outside FM or IM for DOs but I am sure it's not impossible (except Derm lmao)

Insight from current Residents/Attending/Matched MS4s appreciated! I don't really care how competitive the program is, in fact I'd probably prefer a rural residency as opposed to working in an academic hospital.

Thanks for your time to respond!

https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Charting_Outcomes_DO_Seniors_2022_Final-Updated.pdf

Look up the specialty you want and see the corresponding board scores, research experiences, etc. The best predictor of your chances of matching is how many interviews are extended to you in each respective specialty.

If you work hard enough and make enough connections, any specialty is possible. We matched one to plastics this year, granted the individual did a research year, step 2 270+, COMLEX 2 700+.

I'll be honest with you, so many people spend so much time planning and wondering I feel like they fall into the trap of trying to do the bare minimum to get somewhere. Sometimes you just have to get up and do it. Volunteer for those case reports when offered, heck if you see an interesting case print out the consent yourself, find a resident who wants to be on the paper, and write the case yourself. Want research opportunities? Reach out, cold call, email, and use your school resources - you will find a research opportunity. Want to score well on boards? Do 7,000+ questions. This all depends on how much you want it/prioritize matching into the specialty of your choice. You WILL have to sacrifice other things in life to achieve a more competitive specialty, whether that's delaying graduation for a year to take a research year, skipping that one trip you had planned, or giving up a time-consuming hobby while studying for boards. But remember this - these sacrifices can be temporary and once you achieve your goal, whatever it is, you can reassess your priorities. This is not to say that privilege doesn't play a role in all this - those with family connections and the monetary funds to have access to the best resources come into play. But is it impossible for someone without it? I don't think so, and I would hate to live my life in a state of learned helplessness.

You'll never learn how to skateboard by just watching skate videos all day. Put your plans into action.

 

[Calizboosted76]

Shooters shoot. It’s still a pipe dream most of the time but there have been more matches recently nationwide for DOs than when I was in med school. I think this is because some of the former DO programs transitioned over and have expanded seats a little.

Yea, our school has matched Derm quite a few times if I recall. I think its pretty foolish to assume that its out of reach for DOs because 1 MD school hasn't matched in a few years. lol.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

True but you never know their personal circumstances, right? For all you know they are the son of a PD or dating the chief resident.

I’ve been following competitive DO matches for years, and this is almost never the case.

 

[Just D.O. it]

life in a state of learned helplessness.

There is a difference between learned helplessness and practicality. I personally know several people that worked their asses off to try and match surgical sub specialties as DOs and ended up with great apps, only to find out that they were left empty handed by the match and would have to SOAP into community IM or FM to move on with their career. Bear in mind that they are now in a residency where they are surrounded by people who lived their lives/did the bare minimum, but they have to live with the memories of having the taste of others buttocks on their lips and boots on their tongues because they spent 4 years kissing ass and licking boots for jack **** in the end.

Coming on here and boldly preaching “hard work” and “grit” like it always will work out is pure bull****, plenty of people who failed to match after working hard are not “satisfied because they tried their best”, most of them want their free time and dignity back from the 4 years of blood, sweat, and tears they wasted.

I know my take might be uncommon/unpopular based on the responses that I typically see on these threads every time a DO or a student with a red flag on their app asks about matching competitive specialties. But my advice is given in good faith and sincerity based on what I’ve seen and I think the perspective of potentially becoming a bitter and overqualified FM applicant is worth keeping in mind when setting on these paths.

 

[Sidus1011]

Derm is likely out of the question unless you have a personal connection. Nobody from my low tier MD school has matched derm in like 4 years

We had 2 derm matches in each of the past couple match cohorts at my school, optho and ENT as well. Doom and gloom doesn't make you a smarter applicant than everyone else.

 

[Just D.O. it]

Doom and gloom doesn't make you a smarter applicant than everyone else.

Pointing out that something is theoretically possible or has been accomplished before in extreme and rare cases isn’t a gotcha moment against someone giving advice to who we presume is an average person in average circumstances

 

[yougotquestions]

There is a difference between learned helplessness and practicality. I personally know several people that worked their asses off to try and match surgical sub specialties as DOs and ended up with great apps, only to find out that they were left empty handed by the match and would have to SOAP into community IM or FM to move on with their career. Bear in mind that they are now in a residency where they are surrounded by people who lived their lives/did the bare minimum, but they have to live with the memories of having the taste of others buttocks on their lips and boots on their tongues because they spent 4 years kissing ass and licking boots for jack **** in the end.

Coming on here and boldly preaching “hard work” and “grit” like it always will work out is pure bull****, plenty of people who failed to match after working hard are not “satisfied because they tried their best”, most of them want their free time and dignity back from the 4 years of blood, sweat, and tears they wasted.

I know my take might be uncommon/unpopular based on the responses that I typically see on these threads every time a DO or a student with a red flag on their app asks about matching competitive specialties. But my advice is given in good faith and sincerity based on what I’ve seen and I think the perspective of potentially becoming a bitter and overqualified FM applicant is worth keeping in mind when setting on these paths.

If you have anything but a clean application as a DO you can kiss most competitive specialties goodbye.

Hard work and grit doesn’t always mean you succeed, but it gives you a hell of a lot better chance. Some people work hard and don’t get the scores they need to get into a competitive specialty. If you work your hardest and only end up with a 240 step 2 and want ENT, derm, optho, plastics yeah practicality comes into play. You’re probably NOT going to get what you want.

I agree with you, hard work does not always equal results.

But I am damned sure that those people that matched into those competitive surgical specialties worked hard and had the grit to push through to get the scores, letters, connections they needed to succeed. We also matched one to ENT and I know how hard she had to work for it. My friend right now is taking a gap year to try to match to better places for ENT. My friend who had 11 surgery interviews got 260+ on his step 2 and wasn’t even offered interviews at away rotations that even wrote him letters of rec as a DO. Tough. He matched at his #7.

Again, does hard work guarantee you get what you want? Hell no. Nothing is guaranteed. But I can tell you my classmates that got the surgical subspecialties that they wanted worked hard and sweated blood for those spots. You want me to come here and say nah bro “take it easy optho is in the bag?” Tough, your friends apps just weren’t enough, even though they tried hard.

 

[Sidus1011]

Pointing out that something is theoretically possible or has been accomplished before in extreme and rare cases isn’t a gotcha moment against someone giving advice to who we presume is an average person in average circumstances

I agree with you that an average DO applicant will not match Derm or the other uber-competitive specialties - the people who match these fields are quite frankly perfect on paper. What I'm more focusing on is the fact that one low-tier MD not matching a Derm in the past 4 years has no bearing on if it's possible for DOs.

 

[Just D.O. it]

You want me to come here and say nah bro “take it easy optho is in the bag?”

No, I want people to be frank and say, As a DO, specialties like derm and optho are not likely EVEN WITH HARD WORK AND DEDICATION. I want people to drive home the fact that if you set your sights on a competitive specialty as a DO, you may well spend 4 years grinding away, DO EVERYTHING RIGHT and still come away empty handed. And then you’ve spent 4 years grinding your dignity away shining peoples shoes and you will have jack **** to show for it for the rest of your life.

SO a DO student should realize like I said above that there is like a 40% chance EVEN WHEN they do everything right only to come away as a SOAPing overqualified FM applicant. If they are ok with those odds, more power to them. What irks me is the tone of some of these responses implying “yea sure you can get whatever you want as long as you work hard.”

And saying **** like “It’s totally doable because my grandma’s dogs babysitter matched derm as a DO by working hard.” Your anecdotes don’t matter because as it stands the data is on my side suggesting that DOs straight up don’t have a good time going for specialties like derm/surgical subs. So the advice should be, “your success in these specialties as a DO will be the exception, not the rule”.

 

[yougotquestions]

No, I want people to be frank and say, As a DO, specialties like derm and optho are not likely EVEN WITH HARD WORK AND DEDICATION. I want people to drive home the fact that if you set your sights on a competitive specialty as a DO, you may well spend 4 years grinding away, DO EVERYTHING RIGHT and still come away empty handed. And then you’ve spent 4 years grinding your dignity away shining peoples shoes and you will have jack **** to show for it for the rest of your life.

SO a DO student should realize like I said above that there is like a 40% chance EVEN WHEN they do everything right only to come away as a SOAPing overqualified FM applicant. If they are ok with those odds, more power to them. What irks me is the tone of some of these responses implying “yea sure you can get whatever you want as long as you work hard.”

And saying **** like “It’s totally doable because my grandma’s dogs babysitter matched derm as a DO by working hard.” Your anecdotes don’t matter because as it stands the data is on my side suggesting that DOs straight up don’t have a good time going for specialties like derm/surgical subs. So the advice should be, “your success in these specialties as a DO will be the exception, not the rule”.

Any monkey can see that it’s not likely by looking at the match results and calculate the chance you match into a specific surgical subspecialty.

Maybe I should rephrase it then. You’ll never have a chance at matching into these specialties if you don’t work hard. Even if you don’t match your specialty, saying that they automatically SOAP FM is also an extreme. People I know usually dual apply IM and get a good University program. The people applying to these competitive sub specialties aren’t as dumb as you make them out to be - they know their chances, but they still try because that’s what they want to do.

Keep spreading doom and gloom bro. Go touch grass before you punch your computer.

 

[yougotquestions]

I’m not bothered about being a practical person. Also seems you’d make for a great case study for why those with cognitive deficits often are often happier with their life prospects than others.

I’d like to think everything I said made a lot of rational sense. Heck I didn’t really even disagree with you. Best of luck.

 

[DO2015CA]

No, I want people to be frank and say, As a DO, specialties like derm and optho are not likely EVEN WITH HARD WORK AND DEDICATION. I want people to drive home the fact that if you set your sights on a competitive specialty as a DO, you may well spend 4 years grinding away, DO EVERYTHING RIGHT and still come away empty handed. And then you’ve spent 4 years grinding your dignity away shining peoples shoes and you will have jack **** to show for it for the rest of your life.

SO a DO student should realize like I said above that there is like a 40% chance EVEN WHEN they do everything right only to come away as a SOAPing overqualified FM applicant. If they are ok with those odds, more power to them. What irks me is the tone of some of these responses implying “yea sure you can get whatever you want as long as you work hard.”

And saying **** like “It’s totally doable because my grandma’s dogs babysitter matched derm as a DO by working hard.” Your anecdotes don’t matter because as it stands the data is on my side suggesting that DOs straight up don’t have a good time going for specialties like derm/surgical subs. So the advice should be, “your success in these specialties as a DO will be the exception, not the rule”.

I didn’t read any of the responses like this and mine certainly wasn’t in the same vein. Is this your reality? Did you work extremely hard then came up with nothing and are jaded so have first hand knowledge? I think if it is then that would be a valuable experience to share. Data agrees with you it is very unlikely but it also supports there are expanding numbers per year that are matching. Now if you want to make an applicant % successful then that is a reasonable argument to make.

I’m not bothered about being a practical person. Also seems you’d make for a great case study for why those with cognitive deficits often are often happier with their life prospects than others.

This was unneeded.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I didn’t read any of the responses like this and mine certainly wasn’t in the same vein. Is this your reality? Did you work extremely hard then came up with nothing and are jaded so have first hand knowledge? I think if it is then that would be a valuable experience to share. Data agrees with you it is very unlikely but it also supports there are expanding numbers per year that are matching. Now if you want to make an applicant % successful then that is a reasonable argument to make.

This was unneeded.

I don't want to get in the middle of what appears to be you guys having ticked off each other. However, i want to be objective. I think there is an expanding amount of DO students matching because the stigma is slowly fading. I know people whose parents were MDs in ophtho and other fields whose kids are now DOs. That helps. Nevertheless, the bias and difficulty matching are there.

I've seen people from MD schools not matching. Even ones coming from top institutions who have ridiculously high scores and research. Of course, their odds are better from the start. Nevertheless, never 100% doing everything right.

I think each person needs to have a real heart to heart with themselves about how much a specialty and effort needed means to them. Sure, a lot of people would like derm but may also be equally as happy if they did PMR or family medicine. Some may not be as happy but still happy enough that the trade-off of working less hard is worth it.

In sum, if you're a DO, you should really apply to these specialties and do all this work if you truly feel there is no comparison when it comes to satisfaction, and even then, you might not get it. It's a hard reality that is better understood early on. I knew a guy in this exact position who wanted ortho, realized he was scoring in the bottom half, reflected in what makes him happy, and he ended up with a great life and happiness doing FM and sports medicine without ever stressing again during school and having to have anxiety about matching

 

[DO2015CA]

I don't want to get in the middle of what appears to be you guys having ticked off each other. However, i want to be objective. I think there is an expanding amount of DO students matching because the stigma is slowly fading. I know people whose parents were MDs in ophtho and other fields whose kids are now DOs. That helps. Nevertheless, the bias and difficulty matching are there.

I've seen people from MD schools not matching. Even ones coming from top institutions who have ridiculously high scores and research. Of course, their odds are better from the start. Nevertheless, never 100% doing everything right.

I think each person needs to have a real heart to heart with themselves about how much a specialty and effort needed means to them. Sure, a lot of people would like derm but may also be equally as happy if they did PMR or family medicine. Some may not be as happy but still happy enough that the trade-off of working less hard is worth it.

In sum, if you're a DO, you should really apply to these specialties and do all this work if you truly feel there is no comparison when it comes to satisfaction, and even then, you might not get it. It's a hard reality that is better understood early on. I knew a guy in this exact position who wanted ortho, realized he was scoring in the bottom half, reflected in what makes him happy, and he ended up with a great life and happiness doing FM and sports medicine without ever stressing again during school and having to have anxiety about matching

No animosity from my side lol. Wasn’t even sure it was directed at me. Agree with this post 100%

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I don't want to get in the middle of what appears to be you guys having ticked off each other. However, i want to be objective. I think there is an expanding amount of DO students matching because the stigma is slowly fading. I know people whose parents were MDs in ophtho and other fields whose kids are now DOs. That helps. Nevertheless, the bias and difficulty matching are there.

I've seen people from MD schools not matching. Even ones coming from top institutions who have ridiculously high scores and research. Of course, their odds are better from the start. Nevertheless, never 100% doing everything right.

I think each person needs to have a real heart to heart with themselves about how much a specialty and effort needed means to them. Sure, a lot of people would like derm but may also be equally as happy if they did PMR or family medicine. Some may not be as happy but still happy enough that the trade-off of working less hard is worth it.

In sum, if you're a DO, you should really apply to these specialties and do all this work if you truly feel there is no comparison when it comes to satisfaction, and even then, you might not get it. It's a hard reality that is better understood early on. I knew a guy in this exact position who wanted ortho, realized he was scoring in the bottom half, reflected in what makes him happy, and he ended up with a great life and happiness doing FM and sports medicine without ever stressing again during school and having to have anxiety about matching

Great post. Students need the ability to be introspective and analyze the characteristics required to match their desired specialty. Playing the Match game well is critical. Understanding what residencies your app would be considered competetive is also critical. I think many apply to programs that in reality are a reach. Consider matching the same as being elected. Influence, letters, rocking the audition rotation, good scores, a program with a history of taking DOs are very important. Make sure all those boxes are checked. Our local Uni where I was faculty always took a DO or two. Last class I looked at took none. I think it is more of an increased number of good applicants than DO bias. The match game is getting tougher and I always encourage students to check out uni affiliates for residency too. Some are quite good.

 

[yougotquestions]

I don't want to get in the middle of what appears to be you guys having ticked off each other. However, i want to be objective. I think there is an expanding amount of DO students matching because the stigma is slowly fading. I know people whose parents were MDs in ophtho and other fields whose kids are now DOs. That helps. Nevertheless, the bias and difficulty matching are there.

I've seen people from MD schools not matching. Even ones coming from top institutions who have ridiculously high scores and research. Of course, their odds are better from the start. Nevertheless, never 100% doing everything right.

I think each person needs to have a real heart to heart with themselves about how much a specialty and effort needed means to them. Sure, a lot of people would like derm but may also be equally as happy if they did PMR or family medicine. Some may not be as happy but still happy enough that the trade-off of working less hard is worth it.

In sum, if you're a DO, you should really apply to these specialties and do all this work if you truly feel there is no comparison when it comes to satisfaction, and even then, you might not get it. It's a hard reality that is better understood early on. I knew a guy in this exact position who wanted ortho, realized he was scoring in the bottom half, reflected in what makes him happy, and he ended up with a great life and happiness doing FM and sports medicine without ever stressing again during school and having to have anxiety about matching

Even PMR is getting difficult. My class had a rough time matching into PMR even with great scores.

 

[eyeeye_captain]

I see a few mentions of ophtho here. It’s a pretty rough example.

This year the DO senior match rate was 32%, and the total rate with grads added was 37%. The prior 2 years were ~45%. About as many IMGs match per year as seniors.

After the merger, 53% of DO residencies closed.

The biggest problem that DO students have with small specialties isn’t scores or research - it’s connections. If I’m reviewing applications for residency and I see a strong letter from my coresident X or my old attending Y or international meeting panel person Z, I can overlook a few points on Step 2 or a smaller list of manuscripts to an extent. That’s also extremely common, it probably only takes 2 phone calls to track down someone in academics. If I have to Google your mentor, it’s less than ideal. The same thing happens to MDs without a home program or with a weak one.

 

[MDMechEngr]

I see a few mentions of ophtho here. It’s a pretty rough example.

This year the DO senior match rate was 32%, and the total rate with grads added was 37%. The prior 2 years were ~45%. About as many IMGs match per year as seniors.

After the merger, 53% of DO residencies closed.

The biggest problem that DO students have with small specialties isn’t scores or research - it’s connections. If I’m reviewing applications for residency and I see a strong letter from my coresident X or my old attending Y or international meeting panel person Z, I can overlook a few points on Step 2 or a smaller list of manuscripts to an extent. That’s also extremely common, it probably only takes 2 phone calls to track down someone in academics. If I have to Google your mentor, it’s less than ideal. The same thing happens to MDs without a home program or with a weak one.

Drexel is a low tier MD without a home program. They matched 7 Ophtho this year. I do believe that connections or having someone who is well regarded vouch for you can make a huge difference.

 

[eyeeye_captain]

Drexel is a low tier MD without a home program. They matched 7 Ophtho this year. I do believe that connections or having someone who is well regarded vouch for you can make a huge difference.

I suspect they did some work at Wills or Penn (top 3 and top 25 programs for the non-ophtho folks). I’m pretty sure their residents used to go to grand rounds every week at Wills, so there’s some history of collaboration. I could be wrong, been a long time since I was applying, same for Drexel shutting their program down.

 

[Goro]

Derm is likely out of the question unless you have a personal connection.

100% untrue for my kids whi have matched Derm.

They earned their spots.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

True but you never know their personal circumstances, right? For all you know they are the son of a PD or dating the chief resident. Also most DO schools have like hundreds of students so usually by chance there might be a couple of these cases

Wasn’t the case. The former DO programs are keeping DO derm hopes alive for sure. We even had someone match MD derm.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Derm is likely out of the question unless you have a personal connection. Nobody from my low tier MD school has matched derm in like 4 years

Sounds like nobody from your low tier MD school was a good applicant in like 4 years.

I’ve always been in the camp of being realistic with the reality of being a DO student. Competitive things are even more competitive for us.

But my class had a lot of people match surgical subs and derm too. And they all had one thing in common, too. Their apps looked like an MDs. That’s it. That’s the secret guys. Build a strong app for the specialty you want. Crazy, right?

The limitations really come down to the admittedly real bias as well as the limitations most private DO schools run into with providing students the resources to build a competitive app. The biggest problem being networking opportunities, not the letters after your name.