MBBS = MD = DO?

[AlbinoHawk DO]

sub·stan·tial
səbˈstan(t)SHəl/

1. concerning the essentials of something.
"there was substantial agreement on changing policies"

That OMM factors so heavily into many DO curriculums is one example of how a DO curriculum has a substantial (as in, not insignificant and essential difference) in how DOs are educated as compared to their MD counterparts. There is also the matter of teaching facilities and hospitals- the expectations required by LCME standards lead to MDs having a substantial difference in the quality of their clinical rotations and thus the education received. Our MD counterparts have a substantially higher level of access to research opportunities and support. Most DO schools would never qualify to be LCME member schools because they are lacking in things that are substantial enough to make our education not meet the uniform standards of LCME accreditation. That alone should be reason enough for you to see that we have a difference in education in regard to MD training, even when OMM is out of the picture. But then you throw in the focus of many schools, such as mine, where OMM is a significant part of the curriculum (most students at my school have to sink as much time into OMM and anatomy as they do into all other subjects combined, an experience that makes the focus of our education very, very different from the experience of an MD student) and you get an educational experience that is essentially very different from what someone at an MD school would have.

It isn't a matter of inferiority, it's just that we are different. Think about it like car companies. Ford sells inferior models of their product overseas. But if you were to bring one of those to America and it were to pass the safety inspections required for it to be on the road, ultimately you'd still be driving a Ford. We're not Fords. We're Chevys. We came out of a different design process and a different plant. Sure, the ultimate product is very similar, but no matter what we do, we can't call ourselves Fords, because we aren't. It isn't a quality difference, it isn't a price difference, it isn't discrimination, it just is what it is. We aren't the same thing, legally or by lineage, any more than a Protestant is a Catholic or a Ford is a Chevy or a Coke is a Pepsi.

It's so sad you're so blind by this. Now explain how all the Caribbean and international MD get to use MD then? Stop pretending this is an LCME standards thing. OMM is not "substantial" if its not taking away from medical curriculum. It would be the equivalent of an MD student in the US spending 4 hours a week on lab. It's a glorified elective for the purpose of keeping a meaningless difference to feed the power hungry AOA.

And yes, we are ford vs. Chevy. Good thing those kids at AUC are getting a Ford that's identical to the Harvard Ford.

Look, if some like you want to stay being "osteopath," go ahead. We are not here to force you to change, but apparently you believe it's okay to force us.

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[Mad Jack]

It's so sad you're so blind by this. Now explain how all the Caribbean and international MD get to use MD then? Stop pretending this is an LCME standards thing. OMM is not "substantial" if its not taking away from medical curriculum. It would be the equivalent of an MD student in the US spending 4 hours a week on lab. It's a glorified elective for the purpose of keeping a meaningless difference to feed the power hungry AOA.

And yes, we are ford vs. Chevy. Good thing those kids at AUC are getting a Ford that's identical to the Harvard Ford.

Look, if some like you want to stay being "osteopath," go ahead. We are not here to force you to change, but apparently you believe it's okay to force us.

You should know from my prior posts that I'm all about merging the professions, but until that happens, DOs cannot and should not go around calling themselves MDs, because legally, we are not. Please provide one legally sound argument on the contrary. The MD medical licensing boards recognize foreign MBBS/MD/etc as equivalent to their own training, but they do not recognize our training as equivalent to theirs. Since it is the ECFMG, LCME, and state medical licensing boards that are the ones that determine who is afforded the right to be called an MD, we are not on that list, regardless of how many tests we take or pass (just as foreign MDs cannot take the COMLEX and suddenly call themselves DOs), we can't and shouldn't be calling ourselves MDs because we are certified and licensed by a different body that recognizes different standards of education.

My argument has not been from a philosophical perspective, it is from a legal one. The COCA cannot certify schools to grant an MD degree or designation, because that is a legally protected title that can only be bestowed by LCME schools and those foreign institutions that the ECFMG and state medical boards determine to be equivalent enough to carry the title of MD.

 

[DocEspana]

guys guys guys. MD is just two letters. Without context it is simply latin for Medicinae Doctor. Now with that said, INSIDE of the US the degree is held as an intellectual property (monopoly? Idk what term would apply here) of the LCME and AAMC. Within the context of the LCME and AAMC it has certain meanings. But if it is gained elsewhere it is just two letters standing for a latin phrase which have only the bearing that the degree bearing institution can imbue onto it. So while the argument that all MDs are the same is stupid, the argument that "youre wrong because there are island schools and blah blah blah" is even more so, because no one is arguing for what you're arguing against. Everyone here understands what we mean when we say MD in the context of this conversation. To attempt to build an argument around it otherwise is building up a strawman out of things *technically* not said but *in reality* understood by everyone here.


Also whomever said MBBS is inferior to anything has not met the MBBS and MDCM'ers out there who will kick your ass. Nothing is homogenous, and there is plenty of data that foreign born foreign trained individuals make better PGY-1 residents (data doesnt hold after that) than american trained individuals. But we can talk for hours about the selection bias of what MBBS physicians you see, because there is a selection bias towards the strongest ones... but if no one ever sees the weaker ones on US soil, do they matter for any comparison purposes we would make?

I love both of you, but I feel more stupid for reading the last few posts. Youre both fighting over the honor of having the last word, rather than meaningful discourse.

(I miss you already stephen)

 

[jakeislove]

Yeah, but that's unlikely to happen any time soon. On the other hand, with the merger, the AOA focused residencies would require some OMM training for MDs to match, so its very possible for what NurWollen said to happen in the not too distant future.

Perhaps they'll require COMLEX

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You should know from my prior posts that I'm all about merging the professions, but until that happens, DOs cannot and should not go around calling themselves MDs, because legally, we are not. Please provide one legally sound argument on the contrary. The MD medical licensing boards recognize foreign MBBS/MD/etc as equivalent to their own training, but they do not recognize our training as equivalent to theirs. Since it is the ECFMG, LCME, and state medical licensing boards that are the ones that determine who is afforded the right to be called an MD, we are not on that list, regardless of how many tests we take or pass (just as foreign MDs cannot take the COMLEX and suddenly call themselves DOs), we can't and shouldn't be calling ourselves MDs because we are certified and licensed by a different body that recognizes different standards of education.

My argument has not been from a philosophical perspective, it is from a legal one. The COCA cannot certify schools to grant an MD degree or designation, because that is a legally protected title that can only be bestowed by LCME schools and those foreign institutions that the ECFMG and state medical boards determine to be equivalent enough to carry the title of MD.

I'm not an attorney and neither are you, so when it comes to legal arguments, neither has authority on this. You've now turned tactics. You've gone from saying we are substantially different (philosophical) to saying that we are legally bounded; it is simply a dishonest way of arguing. The point many of us are making is that the education is indistinguishable aside from a glorified elective. It also seems quite ridiculous from you to keep making it sound like it is when the MDs just merged with us for graduate education. The point is that we should be allowed to use MD as we have more rigorous standards than other institutions that are allowed to. Stick to one argument next time instead of trying to find a "gotcha" moment.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm not an attorney and neither are you, so when it comes to legal arguments, neither has authority on this. You've now turned tactics. You've gone from saying we are substantially different (philosophical) to saying that we are legally bounded; it is simply a dishonest way of arguing. The point many of us are making is that the education is indistinguishable aside from a glorified elective. It also seems quite ridiculous from you to keep making it sound like it is when the MDs just merged with us for graduate education. The point is that we should be allowed to use MD as we have more rigorous standards than other institutions that are allowed to. Stick to one argument next time instead of trying to find a "gotcha" moment.

Not once did I use the word "philosophy." I referred entirely to technical standards and differences in the education expected by the accrediting bodies of both professions which preclude a DO from being an MD for reasons far beyond "philosophy."

Let's imagine you opened up an MD school that did everything the exact same as an osteopathic school. It would not be accredited on account of lack of appropriate rotations sites for the student body, lack of researchers, lack of diverse funding, etc. Are you arguing that students from such an unaccredited school would have the right to call themselves MDs, despite their lack of recognition by the LCME? It isn't about philosophy, it's about the control of a profession. MDs believe that foreign MDs are equivalent in education and training. They do not believe osteopathic students are. Therefore it doesn't matter how any DO feels about it, because we do not control the MD profession and cannot simply say, "sure, we practice under another model, have a different licensing board, and don't meet your standards, but we have the right to use the title that you control." How you or I feel about it doesn't mean a damn thing, because our profession doesn't control who is and isn't an MD.

Idgaf about titles. I'm going to be a DO, because I happened to go to a DO. It's just a couple of letters. But I'm not going to argue that I've got the right to use the title of MD because I happen to be a physician any more than an NP should be able to call themselves an MD because they have independent practice rights and can do everything most physicians can do.

 

[Mad Jack]

guys guys guys. MD is just two letters. Without context it is simply latin for Medicinae Doctor. Now with that said, INSIDE of the US the degree is held as an intellectual property (monopoly? Idk what term would apply here) of the LCME and AAMC. Within the context of the LCME and AAMC it has certain meanings. But if it is gained elsewhere it is just two letters standing for a latin phrase which have only the bearing that the degree bearing institution can imbue onto it. So while the argument that all MDs are the same is stupid, the argument that "youre wrong because there are island schools and blah blah blah" is even more so, because no one is arguing for what you're arguing against. Everyone here understands what we mean when we say MD in the context of this conversation. To attempt to build an argument around it otherwise is building up a strawman out of things *technically* not said but *in reality* understood by everyone here.


Also whomever said MBBS is inferior to anything has not met the MBBS and MDCM'ers out there who will kick your ass. Nothing is homogenous, and there is plenty of data that foreign born foreign trained individuals make better PGY-1 residents (data doesnt hold after that) than american trained individuals. But we can talk for hours about the selection bias of what MBBS physicians you see, because there is a selection bias towards the strongest ones... but if no one ever sees the weaker ones on US soil, do they matter for any comparison purposes we would make?

I love both of you, but I feel more stupid for reading the last few posts. Youre both fighting over the honor of having the last word, rather than meaningful discourse.

(I miss you already stephen)

It's not about the last word so much as it about me being sick of DOs butthurt about not being MDs/insecure about not being MDs/generally being upset at the perception of their degree/etc. If it bothers them so much, they should've been MDs. But they're not, they're DOs, so they need to pack it up and move on rather than look for some technical way to be called an MD on their white coat and name tag.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Not once did I use the word "philosophy." I referred entirely to technical standards and differences in the education expected by the accrediting bodies of both professions which preclude a DO from being an MD for reasons far beyond "philosophy."

Let's imagine you opened up an MD school that did everything the exact same as an osteopathic school. It would not be accredited on account of lack of appropriate rotations sites for the student body, lack of researchers, lack of diverse funding, etc. Are you arguing that students from such an unaccredited school would have the right to call themselves MDs, despite their lack of recognition by the LCME? It isn't about philosophy, it's about the control of a profession. MDs believe that foreign MDs are equivalent in education and training. They do not believe osteopathic students are. Therefore it doesn't matter how any DO feels about it, because we do not control the MD profession and cannot simply say, "sure, we practice under another model, have a different licensing board, and don't meet your standards, but we have the right to use the title that you control." How you or I feel about it doesn't mean a damn thing, because our profession doesn't control who is and isn't an MD.

Idgaf about titles. I'm going to be a DO, because I happened to go to a DO. It's just a couple of letters. But I'm not going to argue that I've got the right to use the title of MD because I happen to be a physician any more than an NP should be able to call themselves an MD because they have independent practice rights and can do everything most physicians can do.

Now you're going in circles about DO must equal LCME standards. This has been addressed. I understand you want to stay an osteopath, but I don't believe you've made a good argument as to why DO should remain separate when MDs from other countries, which have lower or even worse standards, are able to use MD.

 

[Mad Jack]

Now you're going in circles about DO must equal LCME standards. This has been addressed. I understand you want to stay an osteopath, but I don't believe you've made a good argument as to why DO should remain separate when MDs from other countries, which have lower or even worse standards, are able to use MD.

Because it isn't our right to use the title MD. It isn't that I want to stay an osteopath- idgaf what I'm called. We just aren't MDs, it is how it is. That doesn't mean we're better or worse than MDs, just that we can't use the letters because they aren't ours because the MD bodies are the ones who determine their use, not us.

 

[DocEspana]

Now you're going in circles about DO must equal LCME standards. This has been addressed. I understand you want to stay an osteopath, but I don't believe you've made a good argument as to why DO should remain separate when MDs from other countries, which have lower or even worse standards, are able to use MD.

I'll make the point for you. M.D. is just two letters. It is NOT the same country to country. a US MD cannot practice freely in *many* countries that also give MD degrees. Why? Because they are not the same. They are homonyms (technically homographs), spelled the same but have entirely different meaning. All MD degrees (all any kind of degree) carry an invisible "dash country of origin" after it. As it is intersection of the country of origin and the country currently under your feet that decides what your degree is worth.

 

[DocEspana]

Well if this is going to continue, this old man is realizing he is too rickety and tired for you young kids and your crazy arguments.

 

[jakeislove]

Now you're going in circles about DO must equal LCME standards. This has been addressed. I understand you want to stay an osteopath, but I don't believe you've made a good argument as to why DO should remain separate when MDs from other countries, which have lower or even worse standards, are able to use MD.

It's probably because they have an MD degree.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

It's probably because they have an MD degree.

That's the point. The title MD is not bound to just one set of rules and circumstance. From a personal point of view, MD/DO/Whatever is meaningless to me. From an economic POV, I see the advantages of having the letters MD and don't think there's a good reason to keep DOs from using it.

 

[67552931811]

Life would just be easier if everyone became MBBS...

 

[jakeislove]

That's the point. The title MD is not bound to just one set of rules and circumstance. From a personal point of view, MD/DO/Whatever is meaningless to me. From an economic POV, I see the advantages of having the letters MD and don't think there's a good reason to keep DOs from using it.

DOs having the DO degree isn't a good reason?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

DOs having the DO degree isn't a good reason?

MDs could have an MBBS degree, but that doesn't stop them.

 

[jakeislove]

MDs could have an MBBS degree, but that doesn't stop them.

Perhaps the state should make it so everyone with a doctorate could use MD credentials.

 

[NurWollen]

Perhaps the state should make it so everyone with a doctorate could use MD credentials.

DNPs included?

 

[tpn89]

Actually there is an MD degree in India separate from the MBBS. The MBBS is an "undergraduate" medical degree, the MD is a graduate degree that you get after extra training/research. In our country, schools give out the MD at the "undergraduate" level instead.

So in india there is actually a big difference between an MBBS and an MD, as the MD is more highly educated.

 

[jakeislove]

DNPs included?

It'll end the discrimination against DNPs!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Perhaps the state should make it so everyone with a doctorate could use MD credentials.

Because DO is so different than MD based on curriculum... What a sad attempt on your part.

 

[tpn89]

It'll end the discrimination against DNPs!

Since the DNPs have the same scope of practice as the MDs in many states, why not? It is an argument, though not a great one

 

[tpn89]

Because DO is so different than MD based on curriculum... What a sad attempt on your part.

I have no problem with DO schools switching to give out MDs, but what I remember when I visited DO schools before applying to med school is that the ones I experienced went out of their way to distinguish their curriculum from the MD approach and were quite proud of it. They seemed to be looking for students who felt the same way too.

 

[jakeislove]

Because DO is so different than MD based on curriculum... What a sad attempt on your part.

You're the one wanting the state to allow a more liberal degree interpretation. Why limit it to DOs?

The DO students we've rotated with were cool and energetic. Never heard them waxing poetic about changing their degrees or bashing offshore students. Is this a new thing?

I did have a few Attendings who felt OMT shouldn't be taught anymore.

 

[DocEspana]

Actually there is an MD degree in India separate from the MBBS. The MBBS is an "undergraduate" medical degree, the MD is a graduate degree that you get after extra training/research. In our country, schools give out the MD at the "undergraduate" level instead.

So in india there is actually a big difference between an MBBS and an MD, as the MD is more highly educated.

Yes, but it is the equivalent to MD vs MD, PhD. AKA, the additional degree is purely academic and doesnt concretely impact what occupation you have.

 

[DocEspana]

Since the DNPs have the same scope of practice as the MDs in many states, why not? It is an argument, though not a great one

They don't. Not even in one state. But maybe youre using the wrong term when you say 'scope of practice'?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You're the one wanting the state to allow a more liberal degree interpretation. Why limit it to DOs?

The DO students we've rotated with were cool and energetic. Never heard them waxing poetic about changing their degrees or bashing offshore students. Is this a new thing?

I did have a few Attendings who felt OMT shouldn't be taught anymore.

Why? Because DOs do 100% identical curriculum with added stuff. If DNP does that, we can have a conversation about them using MD too.

 

[tpn89]

They don't. Not even in one state. But maybe youre using the wrong term when you say 'scope of practice'?

Oh... I was under the impression that the DNPs could perform the same functions as an MD in states where they have "independent practice", meaning they can write any sort of prescription, treat patients independently, etc. I suppose they can't perform surgery, so it wouldn't quite be the same.

 

[tpn89]

You're the one wanting the state to allow a more liberal degree interpretation. Why limit it to DOs?

The DO students we've rotated with were cool and energetic. Never heard them waxing poetic about changing their degrees or bashing offshore students. Is this a new thing?

I did have a few Attendings who felt OMT shouldn't be taught anymore.

I'm actually surprised that OMT is still being taught given the scarcity of evidence for its effectiveness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any more evidence out there in favor of it than homeopathy, magnetic healing, or other such practices. I'd be skeptical of including such training in any M.D. program, or allowing a practitioner using the M.D. title to perform OMT, as it might undermine our evidence based practice philosophy.

Then again I know very little about these things, I'm barely passing med school.

 

[DocEspana]

Oh... I was under the impression that the DNPs could perform the same functions as an MD in states where they have "independent practice", meaning they can write any sort of prescription, treat patients independently, etc. I suppose they can't perform surgery, so it wouldn't quite be the same.

Its pretty strictly limited to having a primary care office, even in the most liberal areas of practice rights. Surgery is a big thing, but so is specializing, most procedures, and full hospital priveleges when your patients get admitted.

 

[DocEspana]

I'm actually surprised that OMT is still being taught given the scarcity of evidence for its effectiveness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any more evidence out there in favor of it than homeopathy, magnetic healing, or other such practices. I'd be skeptical of including such training in any M.D. program, or allowing a practitioner using the M.D. title to perform OMT, as it might undermine our evidence based practice philosophy.

Then again I know very little about these things, I'm barely passing med school.

It has a pretty good evidence based behind it. It just also has elements of hocus pocus in it too. But there is a comical amount of literature defending it. Some of that literature is actually quality studies of the highes expected caliber, but a lot of it is retrospectives and case series (which we use all the time in every other field but means more when you can prove the physiology, which isnt always the case for OMT).

Its more that elements without any wortwhile research are taught alongside proven treatments for (some) pain syndromes, traumatic injuries, and edema reduction. The thought is that it will make the "theoretical" stuff look better, instead it makes the concrete stuff look much worse.

 

[jakeislove]

I'm actually surprised that OMT is still being taught given the scarcity of evidence for its effectiveness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any more evidence out there in favor of it than homeopathy, magnetic healing, or other such practices. I'd be skeptical of including such training in any M.D. program, or allowing a practitioner using the M.D. title to perform OMT, as it might undermine our evidence based practice philosophy.

Then again I know very little about these things, I'm barely passing med school.

Just keep swimming, man.

An MD, DO, or DC can perform spinal manipulation in NY. Considering the scope of a Physician's practice, reimbursements, time, etc... it's probably not worth doing.

 

[tpn89]

Just keep swimming, man.

An MD, DO, or DC can perform spinal manipulation in NY. Considering the scope of a Physician's practice, reimbursements, time, etc... it's probably not worth doing.

Oh, wow, I didn't know spinal manipulation was also allowed. Interesting. I'm surprised the license extends to things not even taught as part of the medical school curriculum. What other things can MDs, DOs do that we may not know about? Are we also allowed to practice naturopathic medicine or ayurveda?

 

[jakeislove]

Oh, wow, I didn't know spinal manipulation was also allowed. Interesting. I'm surprised the license extends to things not even taught as part of the medical school curriculum. What other things can MDs, DOs do that we may not know about? Are we also allowed to practice naturopathic medicine or ayurveda?

They're terminal degrees. You'd need extra training in some cases. There are people who switch from alternative to Allopathic medicine because the MD degree has more implied credibility and is easier to market.

 

[hallowmann]

You're the one wanting the state to allow a more liberal degree interpretation. Why limit it to DOs?

The DO students we've rotated with were cool and energetic. Never heard them waxing poetic about changing their degrees or bashing offshore students. Is this a new thing?

I did have a few Attendings who felt OMT shouldn't be taught anymore.

That's because the most successful DOs don't spend their time caring one way or another about how they're discriminated against or how ignorant people view their degree, they just try the best to achieve what they want. Sure they can be cognizant of the discrimination, but its different when you don't let it impede what you want.

I'm basing this off of the successful (and I mean 1 in 1000) DOs that achieve things most of us say are impossible for DOs. That's their attitude. In my experience, the DOs who complain the most about discrimination, or who want to change their degree, or even the ones who make the biggest deal of their "distinctiveness" are the ones who are less successful or who have limited themselves by not even trying to achieve what they really want. Obviously this is a generalization, but its just my observation.

I'm actually surprised that OMT is still being taught given the scarcity of evidence for its effectiveness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any more evidence out there in favor of it than homeopathy, magnetic healing, or other such practices. I'd be skeptical of including such training in any M.D. program, or allowing a practitioner using the M.D. title to perform OMT, as it might undermine our evidence based practice philosophy.

Then again I know very little about these things, I'm barely passing med school.

There's actually a descent amount of evidence for some aspects of OMT. Mainly for treating MSK issues, especially lower back pain. The problem is that there are some aspects that are lacking evidence, and some that are just ridiculous and don't make any sense. If I were you, I'd be a little more open to things. Plenty of MDs use OMT (especially in PM&R), and even Harvard med school teaches OMT (its actually considered part of "standard care" in the US).

Oh, wow, I didn't know spinal manipulation was also allowed. Interesting. I'm surprised the license extends to things not even taught as part of the medical school curriculum. What other things can MDs, DOs do that we may not know about? Are we also allowed to practice naturopathic medicine or ayurveda?

Have you heard of CAMs (Complementary & Alternative Medicine)? Plenty of MD schools teach some CAM electives, and plenty of MDs use them and get certified in them.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I have no problem with DO schools switching to give out MDs, but what I remember when I visited DO schools before applying to med school is that the ones I experienced went out of their way to distinguish their curriculum from the MD approach and were quite proud of it. They seemed to be looking for students who felt the same way too.

Okay, let's accept your experience. Now from an objective pov, quote to me what's different besides the omm.

 

[tpn89]

Okay, let's accept your experience. Now from an objective pov, quote to me what's different besides the omm.

I honestly don't know. I'm just pointing out what the DO schools told me as an applicant. I was told it was a completely different philosophy of practicing medicine although the information learned is mostly the same, minus the OMT. Obviously I didn't actually go to DO school, so I have no idea what the differences are. Maybe they were lying or exaggerating for the purpose of recruiting people and it's really the same. If it is exactly the same then it is certainly silly to have separate degrees. Either way, it didn't sound to me as they would be too happy to just be lumped in with the M.D.'s. My impression was that they wanted to remain a separate (and in their opinion, better) path, and having a separate degree helps them distinguish themselves. On the other hand, the MBBS degree is basically the same thing as MD here. Those international schools are not trying to distinguish themselves from MDs or offering an alternative philosophy for practicing medicine. They just use a different nomenclature in their countries. So there really is no difference between the MBBS and MD in that respect.

 

[tpn89]

There's actually a descent amount of evidence for some aspects of OMT. Mainly for treating MSK issues, especially lower back pain. The problem is that there are some aspects that are lacking evidence, and some that are just ridiculous and don't make any sense. If I were you, I'd be a little more open to things. Plenty of MDs use OMT (especially in PM&R), and even Harvard med school teaches OMT (its actually considered part of "standard care" in the US).

I'm quite open, but it's pretty important to me personally to have strong evidence for things that are done to people. I think I would be more comfortable with it if those parts you describe as being ridiculous or making no sense were not part of the official curriculum. I would be OK with learning and using the areas that have enough evidence to show they are safe and effective.

 

[DermatoFIGHT]

Who cares, this debate is silly. It only highlights the number of egomaniacs there are in medicine. Such big egos that an MD can't fathom someone who isn't an MD doing what he/she does. A DO that can't handle being a DO. Honestly, never seen so many insecure and potential racists as I have in medicine. Same mentality exact.

 

[hallowmann]

I'm quite open, but it's pretty important to me personally to have strong evidence for things that are done to people. I think I would be more comfortable with it if those parts you describe as being ridiculous or making no sense were not part of the official curriculum. I would be OK with learning and using the areas that have enough evidence to show they are safe and effective.

I think almost every DO student and physician would agree with you. I don't know anyone in my class that was "comfortable" with cranial.

The truth is that this is more historic than anything else. There certainly are things taught not only in DO schools that wouldn't stand up to a well controlled triple blinded study. The reason for this is that we'll always have professors with bias or outdated info even in the top tier of MD schools. With OMT there are a bit more, and unfortunately its built into the curriculum, but the degree to which that bit actually affects student education/time or is even viewed as "true" by faculty varies a lot from school to school.

I'm looking forward to a shift to where OMT is cleaned up or at very least categorized into things we know work, things we're not sure work, and things we know don't work (which should obviously be eliminated). One of the problems is that the people most willing to spend money on its research are the same DOs that use it in the same small handful of schools that actually have a research budget. The motivation to spend what little money they have on that sort of research is lacking, and that's unfortunate for us.

 

[DermatoFIGHT]

When OMT allows for you to be cash only and earn $500,000 a year, you will soon see people take 2 years off to do a research fellowship in OMT, say OMT is their calling, earn a MD/PhD in OMT. Amazing how that changes everyone's feeling on fields. Ahem the ROAD specialties etc. Just lobby for higher reimbursement for OMT and the MD's will be begging for a DO to get paid (let's call a spade a spade).

 

[hallowmann]

When OMT allows for you to be cash only and earn $500,000 a year, you will soon see people take 2 years off to do a research fellowship in OMT, say OMT is their calling, earn a MD/PhD in OMT. Amazing how that changes everyone's feeling on fields. Ahem the ROAD specialties etc. Just lobby for higher reimbursement for OMT and the MD's will be begging for a DO to get paid (let's call a spade a spade).

I know MDs in PM&R that wished they were DOs for the extra billing and treatment option, and they subsequently got certified in OMT. That said, I'm not sure many people drop whatever other field they're interested in for a trip to the "cranial academy". That might work for a few people, but unless you are all about marketing and business (and actually have some skill in OMT), those cash only clinics are hard to maintain. I'd picture more people in my class flocking to concierge medicine before they open up a standalone OMT clinic. Now will they bill for OMT in primary care, probably...

EDIT: then again, OMT clinics aren't huge in my area, but I recall seeing a surprising number in other places, so maybe its a regional thing...

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I honestly don't know. I'm just pointing out what the DO schools told me as an applicant. I was told it was a completely different philosophy of practicing medicine although the information learned is mostly the same, minus the OMT. Obviously I didn't actually go to DO school, so I have no idea what the differences are. Maybe they were lying or exaggerating for the purpose of recruiting people and it's really the same. If it is exactly the same then it is certainly silly to have separate degrees. Either way, it didn't sound to me as they would be too happy to just be lumped in with the M.D.'s. My impression was that they wanted to remain a separate (and in their opinion, better) path, and having a separate degree helps them distinguish themselves. On the other hand, the MBBS degree is basically the same thing as MD here. Those international schools are not trying to distinguish themselves from MDs or offering an alternative philosophy for practicing medicine. They just use a different nomenclature in their countries. So there really is no difference between the MBBS and MD in that respect.

It's just BS. The only people that really believe there is a difference are the quacks doing OMM. The rest of the curriculum is no different. We have several classmates with family members that are MDs that don't see any difference other than the OMM.

 

[meliora27]

With the exception of a couple hours a week of OMM, in 2014, it often seems like the DO degree is more of a historic thing more than anything else, especially with so many DO's taking the USMLE, training along side MD students, and completing ACGME post graduate training.

 

[meliora27]

Yea. It was crushed in SOMA 3-4 years ago. Overwhelming rejection.

A poll gets made here every year aaking opinions on it. Probably seen four of them. First three ended up with 30-35% in favor of change and the rest against. The most recent one (might even be this thread idk where im posting right now) was a touch dsifferent. It was up for about a month and was 65-35, with the usual 35% for change and everyone else against it. maybe 1-2 votes had been cast in the last week of the poll, effecively it was over as nearly everyone who posts or haunts this forum had already voted in te first week, let alone the first month. Then in the span of 24 hours round-about 30 votes were placed all for "MD DO". And suddenly it was 55-45 in favor. Then the original author declared victory and no one voted on the poll again. It was.... suspicious. Thats about all I can say about it.

No surprise that SOMA and AOA HOD rejected it. However, I wonder what percent of DO's feel that SOMA/AOA "speak for them"...

 

[RadsonRads]

When OMT allows for you to be cash only and earn $500,000 a year, you will soon see people take 2 years off to do a research fellowship in OMT, say OMT is their calling, earn a MD/PhD in OMT. Amazing how that changes everyone's feeling on fields. Ahem the ROAD specialties etc. Just lobby for higher reimbursement for OMT and the MD's will be begging for a DO to get paid (let's call a spade a spade).

If I wanted to scam people I'd become a chiro. I'd rather be doing something worthwhile for my pts by doing literally anything but omm

 

[DermatoFIGHT]

If I wanted to scam people I'd become a chiro. I'd rather be doing something worthwhile for my pts by doing literally anything but omm

I think chiros have been very helpful for patients. Having had some extensive thoracic and neck issues I found them very helpful. I'm not talking about the light some candles and all that hoopla ones.