MCAT for PA vs. MD/DO School

[ScatmanCrothers]

Hi guys,

So I'm in a bit of a predicament. Last summer I quit my job and moved back home for the sole purpose of studying for the MCAT because I thought I wanted to go to med school. I kicked its ass and got a 36. Soon after, I started working as a scribe in an ER. That was 4 months ago, and after talking to plenty of different doctors and PA's I'm beginning to think that PA school might be a better choice for me.

My reasons are as follows:
- Money and time: I've been reading posts all over these forums and this reason has been given a thousand times and the answer is always the same: Money and time investment is a stupid reason to go to PA school instead of MD/DO school. "That's no excuse to not do what you love!" "The investment pays off!" blah blah blah. But let's be honest: I don't want to be in debt until I'm 70. I don't want to still be working 60 hours a week in school or residency when I'm 30 and living like a hobo. I've met multiple doctors in the ER who hate the fact that they are still in debt are constantly telling me that going to med school is a terrible idea. And I've met multiple PA's who absolutely love their jobs, and seem to be living great lifestyles in their late 20's/early 30's.
- the job itself: from what I've seen, PA's in the ER are still doing most of the cool stuff that made me want to become an ER doc: laceration repairs, lumbar puncture's, splint placements, etc. About the only thing I've seen an ER doc do that I haven't seen a PA do is a central line placement.
- contingency plan: If worst comes to worst, I go to PA school, get great grades, work for a few years, then decide to go to med school. My GPA right now is a 3.1, so I'm only competitive to the sub par medical schools to begin with, so going to PA school would almost be like going to a really badass post-bac program, and if I do well, I'm sure I would be competitive to top med schools.

So my main question is this: If I decide to go the PA school route, was my MCAT a complete waste of time? I know most PA schools want GRE scores, but do they make exceptions if you have an MCAT score that's through the roof? I'm not talking about the 5 or 6 that explicitly state they take MCAT scores - I'm asking about the ones that explicitly state they require GRE scores. For these ones, is there any chance they'll accept my MCAT, or at least take my awesome score into consideration it if I also take the GRE?

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[OneDay81]

If you're not competitive for med school you probably aren't competitive for PA school. Check the websites of schools you're interested in to find out if they'll accept your mcat scores (my guess is no). You can still report them in Caspa but it might work against you, or at least they will ask about your change in career goals during the interview. Also, I'm sure a lot of wannabe PA's don't appreciate med-school hopefuls who view PA school as a "badass post-bac program" since they are looking to take up a slot that could be filled by someone who actually wants to be a PA.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

[Makati2008]

Hi guys,

So I'm in a bit of a predicament. Last summer I quit my job and moved back home for the sole purpose of studying for the MCAT because I thought I wanted to go to med school. I kicked its ass and got a 36. Soon after, I started working as a scribe in an ER. That was 4 months ago, and after talking to plenty of different doctors and PA's I'm beginning to think that PA school might be a better choice for me.

My reasons are as follows:
- Money and time: I've been reading posts all over these forums and this reason has been given a thousand times and the answer is always the same: Money and time investment is a stupid reason to go to PA school instead of MD/DO school. "That's no excuse to not do what you love!" "The investment pays off!" blah blah blah. But let's be honest: I don't want to be in debt until I'm 70. I don't want to still be working 60 hours a week in school or residency when I'm 30 and living like a hobo. I've met multiple doctors in the ER who hate the fact that they are still in debt are constantly telling me that going to med school is a terrible idea. And I've met multiple PA's who absolutely love their jobs, and seem to be living great lifestyles in their late 20's/early 30's.
- the job itself: from what I've seen, PA's in the ER are still doing most of the cool stuff that made me want to become an ER doc: laceration repairs, lumbar puncture's, splint placements, etc. About the only thing I've seen an ER doc do that I haven't seen a PA do is a central line placement.
- contingency plan: If worst comes to worst, I go to PA school, get great grades, work for a few years, then decide to go to med school. My GPA right now is a 3.1, so I'm only competitive to the sub par medical schools to begin with, so going to PA school would almost be like going to a really badass post-bac program, and if I do well, I'm sure I would be competitive to top med schools.

So my main question is this: If I decide to go the PA school route, was my MCAT a complete waste of time? I know most PA schools want GRE scores, but do they make exceptions if you have an MCAT score that's through the roof? I'm not talking about the 5 or 6 that explicitly state they take MCAT scores - I'm asking about the ones that explicitly state they require GRE scores. For these ones, is there any chance they'll accept my MCAT, or at least take my awesome score into consideration it if I also take the GRE?

Food for thought about the debt. The most I made as a PA was 180k(extremely lucky most PAs don't make that much for the amount of actual work I did)

My old job prior to that one - docs 400k with bonuses on top of it. And they work less hours. The PAs made 120kish

It appears that you are young and with such a good Mcat you should go Physician. There are tons of people with HCE that are older and dedicated to becoming PAs/NP that would serve the profession better

 

[ScatmanCrothers]

If you're not competitive for med school you probably aren't competitive for PA school. Check the websites of schools you're interested in to find out if they'll accept your mcat scores (my guess is no). You can still report them in Caspa but it might work against you, or at least they will ask about your change in career goals during the interview. Also, I'm sure a lot of wannabe PA's don't appreciate med-school hopefuls who view PA school as a "badass post-bac program" since they are looking to take up a slot that could be filled by someone who actually wants to be a PA.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Thanks for your input, but to rebuttal...

For starters my change in career goals is easily explainable - just like I stated in my post, I started working in the ER and saw first hand what its like to be a PA. I don't see how I could have a better reason for changing then seeing for the first time exactly what an ER PA does and how awesome it is.

"If you're not competitive for med school you probably aren't competitive for PA school." - really? For starters, I'm fairly competitive for med school, just not any of the really good ones. And secondly, seeing as how the average GPA of PA students is drastically lower than the average GPA for MD/DO students, and my low GPA is my biggest weak point, it seems like I would be significantly more competitive to PA school.

And I never said I didn't "actually want to be a PA". I would love to be a PA. I just said it was my contingency plan to go to med school again 5 or so years after PA'ing if I want to. If I go to med school and change my mind 5 years into the field, I can't exactly get my money back and become a PA.

And like I said I've already done my research on the schools that explicitly state one way or another if they accept MCAT scores. But most of them don't even mention it, so what I'm asking is if I send those schools my scores, will they even consider them or just toss them out.

Thanks for taking the time to offer your input!

 

[ScatmanCrothers]

Food for thought about the debt. The most I made as a PA was 180k(extremely lucky most PAs don't make that much for the amount of actual work I did)

My old job prior to that one - docs 400k with bonuses on top of it. And they work less hours. The PAs made 120kish

It appears that you are young and with such a good Mcat you should go Physician. There are tons of people with HCE that are older and dedicated to becoming PAs/NP that would serve the profession better

Thanks for the input. In what specialty were you working with those salaries? In the 2 ER's I work in, the PA's make around 80-100k and the docs make around 160-200k. So my financial situation would look like this:

For starters, I've got about 30k saved up towards school.
PA: 2 years of school @ ~50k/year = 100k = 70k debt.
Age 28: graduate PA school
Age 29-32: make 4 years of PA salary that i wouldn't be making in med school = 320k
MD/DO: 4 years of school @ ~50k/year = 200k = 170k of debt
Age 32: finish residency. At this point, 100k difference in tuition debt + 320k gained from working as PA = 4200k less money that I would have at this point than going PA route.
Age 39: Finally work 7 years with 180k doc salary and make enough to get to where I'd financially be as a PA

So after age 40 being a doctor would finally become more profitable, and that's at the cost of sacrificing my late 20's and early 30's working 60 hour weeks either in med school or residency, living like I'm on welfare, and still feeling like I'm in the ****ter for most of my 30's because I'm in mountains of debt, a situation which I can't imagine enjoying too much.

Please correct me if you disagree with any of my logic here.

 

[OneDay81]

No need to take offense. Your post just makes you sound like you are still uncertain about PA v MD.

From what I've read on here, a 3.1 GPA is not competitive for PA school unless you have great HCE.

 

[Makati2008]

Thanks for the input. In what specialty were you working with those salaries? In the 2 ER's I work in, the PA's make around 80-100k and the docs make around 160-200k. So my financial situation would look like this:

For starters, I've got about 30k saved up towards school.
PA: 2 years of school @ ~50k/year = 100k = 70k debt.
Age 28: graduate PA school
Age 29-32: make 4 years of PA salary that i wouldn't be making in med school = 320k
MD/DO: 4 years of school @ ~50k/year = 200k = 170k of debt
Age 32: finish residency. At this point, 100k difference in tuition debt + 320k gained from working as PA = 4200k less money that I would have at this point than going PA route.
Age 39: Finally work 7 years with 180k doc salary and make enough to get to where I'd financially be as a PA

So after age 40 being a doctor would finally become more profitable, and that's at the cost of sacrificing my late 20's and early 30's working 60 hour weeks either in med school or residency, living like I'm on welfare, and still feeling like I'm in the ****ter for most of my 30's because I'm in mountains of debt, a situation which I can't imagine enjoying too much.

Please correct me if you disagree with any of my logic here.

I was in EM. If those salaries are correct for a Physician then you would be correct. They just seem very low for an EP ....what state? Are these EM boarded docs?

Also I don't see where you considered the resident salary as well as the possibility to moonlight which can lower your projection for the physician side.

 

[Makati2008]

No need to take offense. Your post just makes you sound like you are still uncertain about PA v MD.

From what I've read on here, a 3.1 GPA is not competitive for PA school unless you have great HCE.

Correct. 3.5 is a closer average at least it was 2 years ago....

 

[ScatmanCrothers]

I wasn't taking offense OneDay81, I just felt like I needed to clarify a couple things about my original post that your response made it seem like I had brushed over. Thanks a lot for your input.

Mataki, those numbers are from California, and yes they're boarded docs, however I don't know all of their salaries, those are just my guesstimates from the few that I've gathered. The numbers don't need to be exact - I guess the point I'm making is that I have a lot of other passions in my life, and I don't want to spend the next 20 years working my ass off just to crawl out of debt, without any time to pursue my other goals.

Its become obvious that I need to examine this in more depth so I've made a more detailed post here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/pa-vs-md-vs-do-chances.1048873/

OneDay and Mataki, please check it out if you have time, but if not your responses here have already been very helpful, and I'll keep watching this thread if you would rather keep it simple and have any more advice you'd like to post here.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

160-200k for EM is super low, even for academics. 250-350k is probably a better range to use, at least for the time being.

 

[wutthechris]

My GPA right now is a 3.1, so I'm only competitive to the sub par medical schools to begin with, so going to PA school would almost be like going to a really badass post-bac program, and if I do well, I'm sure I would be competitive to top med schools.

Thanks for your input, but to rebuttal...

And secondly, seeing as how the average GPA of PA students is drastically lower than the average GPA for MD/DO students, and my low GPA is my biggest weak point, it seems like I would be significantly more competitive to PA school.

You have been misinformed. The real difference is that some PA programs will overlook someone's GPA(to an extent) if they have the HCE to balance it and a good performance in the pre-reqs and more recent coursework.

 

[Denatured]

Correct. 3.5 is a closer average at least it was 2 years ago....

Yep. according to PAEA, 3.49 cGPA and 3.42 sGPA for the average matriculant.

 

[tbrandenstein]

Here is my quick 2 cents...

I wouldn't let the medical school debt factor into the equation. Assuming you worked for 20 after residency, probably averaging 1.5-2X what a PA makes, that number goes away pretty quickly. The "investment phase", medical school and residency, takes a financial and time commitment, but the payoff is substantially more. Not that these aren't important factors, but I wouldn't let it sway me in any direction.

My wife is a doctor (ob/gyn) and I am pre-PA (hoping to apply in about 2yrs). She has been in practice for two years (in other words, finished residency 2yrs ago) and we live a nice lifestyle, despite her debt. Her employer paid about 20% of her med school debt off, as a part of her contract (which I think is pretty normal), over the course of her first two years. What she still owes is easily another house payment, but it does not really effect us that greatly.

Why haven't I talked myself into becoming a doctor? Guess I'll save that for another discussion

 

[Beth_W737]

Also I am a 4th year med student who matched into EM, spent several thousand hours in EDs thus far and never saw a PA who was allowed to do an LP. Lacs, splinting yes. The PAs in our ED only do fast track patients. Procedure wise the docs residents and even senior med students do LPs and central lines. I've done 2 LPs and 3 central lines as a 3rd and 4th year. First year of residency you make 48-52k, then it goes up 1-2 k each year and by 2/3rd year you may be allowed to moonlight, I heard some say they got $600 per shift. I'll be 32 this summer after I start residency and don't regret it one bit. Our PAs are awesome but don't let your misunderstanding of salary deter you because then if you still go you'd be 5+ years older. I heard fresh out of residency docs getting 250-300k to work 14 shifts a month.

 

[Makati2008]

Also I am a 4th year med student who matched into EM, spent several thousand hours in EDs thus far and never saw a PA who was allowed to do an LP. Lacs, splinting yes. The PAs in our ED only do fast track patients. Procedure wise the docs residents and even senior med students do LPs and central lines. I've done 2 LPs and 3 central lines as a 3rd and 4th year. First year of residency you make 48-52k, then it goes up 1-2 k each year and by 2/3rd year you may be allowed to moonlight, I heard some say they got $600 per shift. I'll be 32 this summer after I start residency and don't regret it one bit. Our PAs are awesome but don't let your misunderstanding of salary deter you because then if you still go you'd be 5+ years older. I heard fresh out of residency docs getting 250-300k to work 14 shifts a month.

This is very department dependent. I know of and have worked in some where PAs cover minor and major side. Also PAs do get to do LPs, chest tubes and central lines in many places.

It appears that your view is from being in departments with med students, residents etc... Which doesn't allow Midlevels to function fully.

Also $600 per shift??? I hope its an 8hr shift because at 12hrs that's PA pay?? Or are you up north because the pay up there seems notoriously lower?

 

[deleted6669]

As you mentioned, very location dependent. places with med students and residents tend to have pas only in fast track. I staff either solo coverage( as in I am the only provider in the hospital) or double coverage and do full scope em with chest tubes, central lines, intubations, codes, etc.

 

[didymus]

It was the time commitment for me that was the kicker. I was planning on applying to medical school this May, but was deterred by more intense consideration of the intensity and duration of the training. If someone lives on one of the coasts, being a PA is not really all that great, I've heard. The lower average salaries just don't position one to really get ahead financially. For those of us in the Midwest, however, PA's bankroll, and it doesn't take long after graduation to be making >$100K. Considering it is only a masters-level education, that's seriously good money. For most of the PA's I know, they love that they have less responsibility, no call to speak of, lots of vacation time, a predictable schedule, and an excellent salary (with low school debt!).

It just depends on what you want to do and how soon you want to do it. I just couldn't justify at my age prolonging my income earning years any further than I already have.

 

[deleted6669]

I make significantly more than 100k but work at least 1/3 hours more/mo than the typical em physician and more nights/weekends/holidays.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

My old job prior to that one - docs 400k with bonuses on top of it. And they work less hours. The PAs made 120kish

Were these ER docs working 50+ hours/wk? The GMA report shows that ER docs make somewhere around 270k...

 

[Makati2008]

Were these ER docs working 50+ hours/wk? The GMA report shows that ER docs make somewhere around 270k...

Nope in the southeast which paysmore.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I heard fresh out of residency docs getting 250-300k to work 14 shifts a month.

Are these shifts 12, 10 or 8 hours?

 

[Beth_W737]

The one who was graduating, believe 8 hour shifts. And yes in NE. None of the hospitals I've been at have I seen PAs given those type of cases/procedures. I've been at both community (med school affiliated) and level 1 EDs.

 

[deleted6669]

the em docs in my group make around 350k/yr for no more than 120 hrs/mo.
the PAs make significantly less than 1/2 that for around 180 hrs/mo. (+)

 

[Makati2008]

The one who was graduating, believe 8 hour shifts. And yes in NE. None of the hospitals I've been at have I seen PAs given those type of cases/procedures. I've been at both community (med school affiliated) and level 1 EDs.

What did you do in your previous career to spend several thousand hours in the ED?

 

[Beth_W737]

Working as an MS-3 and IV, I did 500-700 hours third year on volunteer basis in my home ED seeing patients, doing central lines, LP, etc.

 

[Beth_W737]

The rest official rotations and more volunteering.

 

[deleted6669]

None of the hospitals I've been at have I seen PAs given those type of cases/procedures. I've been at both community (med school affiliated) and level 1 EDs.

As I mentioned above, any place that has rotating med students or residents is unlikely to let PAs do much. non medical school affiliated facilities often have PAs working in main, or in the case of rural facilities, working solo.
I have 3 jobs. at 2 I work alone, at the other I work side by side with a doc alternating charts from the same rack. I can be intubating a drug o.d. while they are seeing a kid with a cold or vis-versa.

 

[Makati2008]

Working as an MS-3 and IV, I did 500-700 hours third year on volunteer basis in my home ED seeing patients, doing central lines, LP, etc.

So how were you able to pull that off third year and keep up with rotations?

If I had that time I would have been working. Just seems like a lot of EM hours in a short time considering a normal work year is approximately 2k for the average joe.

Anyway congrats on the EM match.

 

[Beth_W737]

Decided mid to late third year I was interested in EM but still nervous about changing my mind. For 6-7 month period averaged 25-30 hours a week in the ED, usually 12-15 hours a day on weekends. Once I got there I just felt like home, wanted to follow up on patients and nighttime doc let me do more procedures. It paid off since that is where I matched. Spent a lot of face time with the PD prior to my official rotation.