MD to DVM

[AndyQC]

Hello -

I am currently in the process of applying to medical schools but have had no luck thus far. Throughout the essays and interviews, I've begun to wonder if medicine is really for me. I love that it is fast-paced and intellectually stimulating, but there are a number of aspects of the field that really turn me off.

I have begun to think about pursuing a career as a veterinarian. However, I know next to nothing about the application process. I hope that someone won't mind answering some very basic questions to help me along:

1) How many hours of clinical experience are expected?
2) Does clinical experience have to be volunteer work or is paid clinical experience (eg - vet tech) acceptable?
3) Is it a risky proposition to apply to brand new vet schools (eg - Midwestern in AZ)?
4) What are the career prospects after graduation?
5) Are DVM schools receptive to non-traditional (see: older) applicants?
6) Are DVM schools receptive to applicants from all majors?
7) Do any DVM schools besides Western - Pomona accept the MCAT?
8) Is research typically required?

Thank you for your feedback! I know that I am a complete newbie and I truly appreciate any insight.

Here is a link to my WAMC thread over in the pre-med forum. It describes my current situation and what my med school application looks like:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/38-mcat-3-6-gpa-what-went-wrong.1060019/

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[catnips]

Hi!
First of all, sorry for the rejections - your stats seem pretty good to me, though I know nothing about human medicine applications. Now to answer the questions...

1) I would say about 450 clinical hours are expected. But there are applicants that got in 250 provided that they have a very high GPA or something else like a research experience. Not many though, I believe they like seeing veterinary experience. There are people with 1000s of hours applying as well. 2) Clinical experience doesn't have to be volunteer work, it can definitely be paid as well. 3)No idea about brand new schools, but I would go if a brand new school was my in-state and if I only got in there. 4) Ugh, career prospects may not be as well as human medicine to be honest... We don't earn as much either (generally speaking of course) And the debt:salary ratio is not great, so focus on your in state school for residency tuition purposes... So I would say if you are not that crazy about veterinary medicine, but just interested in health care, I would maybe go for something else... This is just my opinion though. That's why getting those clinical hours is important. You gotta make sure you really want this before committing a lot of money and time into it. You don't get much money-wise from it at the end. But I do think it is a great, exciting field to work in! 5) Yes! Definitely. 6) Yes, all majors are fine but every school's prerequisite classes are different so make sure you check that. 7) As far as I know, no. GRE is required by most. 8) Research is not required, but recommended. I believe you can get in without it granted you have good GPA, enough vet and animal experience though.

I believe I also saw something in your post about 2 semesters of F's bringing you GPA down but those semesters are from 10 years ago? If I remember correctly, some schools have forgiveness options where you can forgive grades that are more than 6 years old or something. I am almost sure I read something like this, but don't remember which schools. Something to check though! Without those 2 semesters, your GPA is great for veterinary schools.

I would really get experience with a vet though, to make sure this is what you want to do. Money and job prospects may not be as great as MD.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Hello -

I am currently in the process of applying to medical schools but have had no luck thus far. Throughout the essays and interviews, I've begun to wonder if medicine is really for me. I love that it is fast-paced and intellectually stimulating, but there are a number of aspects of the field that really turn me off.

I have begun to think about pursuing a career as a veterinarian. However, I know next to nothing about the application process. I hope that someone won't mind answering some very basic questions to help me along:

1) How many hours of clinical experience are expected?
2) Does clinical experience have to be volunteer work or is paid clinical experience (eg - vet tech) acceptable?
3) Is it a risky proposition to apply to brand new vet schools (eg - Midwestern in AZ)?
4) What are the career prospects after graduation?
5) Are DVM schools receptive to non-traditional (see: older) applicants?
6) Are DVM schools receptive to applicants from all majors?
7) Do any DVM schools besides Western - Pomona accept the MCAT?
8) Is research typically required?

Thank you for your feedback! I know that I am a complete newbie and I truly appreciate any insight.

Here is a link to my WAMC thread over in the pre-med forum. It describes my current situation and what my med school application looks like:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/38-mcat-3-6-gpa-what-went-wrong.1060019/

Other posters will have more info, but my input:

1. Average applicants have anywhere from ~500-1000s.
2. Either!
3. Not sure about this. I have my own opinions on it, and that's just what they are...opinions.
4. It depends on the area of the profession you're looking at. Some people say we have an overabundance of small animal and a shortage of large animal vets.
5. I would say they are either receptive or non-receptive. You compete with your application, not your age. I've heard that they might take a "Why now?" approach to reviewing your application if you are older/switching careers.
6. Yes! Your major does not give you any advantages or disadvantages. You just need to complete the pre-reqs required.
7. Can't help you here.
8. Not required (at least not by the vast majority) but it certainly helps your application.

And just so you know...being a vet means you will be practicing medicine just like any human doctor would be . Except I believe it can be more challenging. You say you don't think medicine is for you...is that because you didn't get accepted to any med schools and are bummed out? Or because you truly realize that you didn't want to be a human doctor only after you applied?

 

[that redhead]

Hello -

I am currently in the process of applying to medical schools but have had no luck thus far. Throughout the essays and interviews, I've begun to wonder if medicine is really for me. I love that it is fast-paced and intellectually stimulating, but there are a number of aspects of the field that really turn me off.

I have begun to think about pursuing a career as a veterinarian. However, I know next to nothing about the application process. I hope that someone won't mind answering some very basic questions to help me along:

1) How many hours of clinical experience are expected?
2) Does clinical experience have to be volunteer work or is paid clinical experience (eg - vet tech) acceptable?
3) Is it a risky proposition to apply to brand new vet schools (eg - Midwestern in AZ)?
4) What are the career prospects after graduation?
5) Are DVM schools receptive to non-traditional (see: older) applicants?
6) Are DVM schools receptive to applicants from all majors?
7) Do any DVM schools besides Western - Pomona accept the MCAT?
8) Is research typically required?

Thank you for your feedback! I know that I am a complete newbie and I truly appreciate any insight.

Here is a link to my WAMC thread over in the pre-med forum. It describes my current situation and what my med school application looks like:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/38-mcat-3-6-gpa-what-went-wrong.1060019/

Searching the forums will be really helpful in answering these questions (see the successful applicants threads).

Applicants can have a very broad range of veterinary hours, but many have in the upper hundreds at least. Many have thousands. You can be successful with fewer.

Experience can be paid or volunteer.

It is a somewhat risky proposition as some aren't even fully accredited yet. No one has been through their curriculum yet, although I assume nothing huge will be a problem.

Career prospects are overall pretty dismal right now. There is a lot of competition for few spots, schools are expanding class sizes and new schools are being accredited, contributing to the oversupply. Salary will never be what a physician makes and debt load is essentially the same; starting salary is around $60k for most small animal practitioners, often less. Essentially, if you would be happy at anything else, it's a safer bet than vet med right now.

Yes to both 5 and 6

You would have to call and ask, but nearly all schools want the GRE.

Research is not at all required, but can be a favorable addition.

The biggest thing you will need to address is your desire to switch fields. What about human med turned you off? Why vet med instead? Until you have some clinical experience, I don't think you'll really be able to answer that, and "because I wasn't successful for med school" isn't going to cut it (neither is "I have always loved animals"). So my advice is to get some experience and figure out if this is really something you want to do before making the change. Good luck to you

 

[BlackDog17]

What is it that "turns you off" about the medical field?

I don't mean to discourage you, but based on your post it sounds like you've become interested in vet school for all the wrong reasons. Vet school is just as competitive as medical school - sometimes more so, because there are fewer schools to apply to - so you'll still be dealing with plenty of rejections before you get accepted. Both human and animal medicine have many of the same downsides, and you'll typically be paid less for your trouble. So before you go pouring a ton of time and energy into preparing for veterinary school, take the time and be honest with yourself about what you're hoping to get out of this field. With such a rigorous program, it really needs to be something you are truly interested in and passionate about, not just your second choice.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Veterinary medicine should not be considered a "backup" to medical school. Honestly, if you can't get into medical school, your chances of getting into veterinary school are exceedingly slim. A 3.6 is all right, but without sizeable veterinary experiences and LORs from at least one, preferably two vets, you're most likely dead in the water. You are looking at at least a full year of completel dedication to the field before I feel you would have a good shot at applying, since most of your experience is exclusively human medicine. Although translational med and care is very important, it would be all to obvious why you are switching and adcoms aren't dumb.

The others have made great points. The veterinary industry is extremely precarious right now. You wil be paid 1/4 - 1/3 of a physician's salary and have the same amount of debt. And I'm not sure how you can even consider applying when you have no experience in the field whatsoever.

The most important question is, what are these aspects of human medicine that "really turn you off"?

These issues might be (and most likely are) just as prevalent in veterinary medicine and you are simply unaware.We also have our own distasteful or unfortunate practicies that you must be comfortable with - i.e. euthanizing an animal with a fixable problem just because the owner cannot afford treatment, which would never happen in human medicine.We have just as many abusive clients as you do abusive patients. If you are shying away from human medicine because of dealing with people, then please reconsider vet med. Animals cannot speak; you will be dealing almost exclusively with their owners just as you would human patients. You need to have an incredibly thick skin or it will grind you down to the core. To be blunt, there are just as many dinguses here as there are there. The difference is in addition to the dinguses, our actual patients cannot describe what is wrong with them.

 

[AndyQC]

Thank you all very much for the thoughtful responses. I know that I had a lot of questions, and I genuinely appreciate the help. It means a lot.

I certainly don't want to jump into this without carefully thinking things through. However, if I intend on applying next year, I will need to start shadowing, volunteering, and (potentially) working in the field within the next couple of months.

There are a few reasons that I have had a change of heart with respect to my future career.

First - the timeline. If I were to reapply to medical school and get accepted next year, I wouldn't complete my residency until I was in my late-30s. Frankly, I don't know if I'll be physically capable of working 80+ hour weeks at that point. Becoming a licensed veterinarian upon graduation and not having to complete a lengthy residency is very appealing.

Second - intellectual curiosity was one of my main motivations for applying to med school. I believe that can be satisfied in veterinary school. You guys have even more to learn in an even shorter amount of time. I like that challenge.

Third - and I should have mentioned this earlier - I do have some experience working with animals. I volunteered at Helen Woodward in my early-20s and at a shelter just a couple of years ago. I really enjoyed the experience, but was deterred from pursuing veterinary medicine by my family (all MDs).

I hope that it's clear that vet school isn't merely a backup plan for me. I might not have considered this route had it not been for my med school application experience, but it is something that has been in the back of my mind since high school.

 

[twelvetigers]

You *have* compared the two salaries, right? You aren't just assuming that vets get paid well? Because we don't... so if you went somewhere like Western, you'd be looking at $300k+ in debt with a $60k a year average starting salary at the age of 30 whatever. Maybe the 80 hour work weeks are worth it?

Just food for thought.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

All right, sounds like you're thinking things through some.

Technically you do not have to complete a residency, but doing internships and residencies are becoming quite common in the field now (about 50% of graduates go on to do one or both). And honestly, the time committment of the average veterinarian in a busy practice likely does approach 60-80hr/wk if you count call - at least the people I have known, maybe some other colleagues can chime in. The 9-5 5-day-week types of jobs are usually specialties like vet rads, optho, derm, cardio, and path.

I would get out there as soona s you can. Many vet schools also like research. For example, I had thousands of hours in animal-related research and maybe only a few hundred clinical hours. So while it is not required, that is another avenue to gain experiences. Translational medicine is huge right now, what with the One Health initiative and all. That would be a good angle for you to shoot for.

TT makes an excellent point. Do you have a family? Are they ready to accept that your effective take-home pay will be....let's just say VERY low, especially right out of school, for many years?

 

[AndyQC]

Veterinary medicine should not be considered a "backup" to medical school. Honestly, if you can't get into medical school, your chances of getting into veterinary school are exceedingly slim. A 3.6 is all right, but without sizeable veterinary experiences and LORs from at least one, preferably two vets, you're most likely dead in the water. You are looking at at least a full year of completel dedication to the field before I feel you would have a good shot at applying, since most of your experience is exclusively human medicine. Although translational med and care is very important, it would be all to obvious why you are switching and adcoms aren't dumb.

The others have made great points. The veterinary industry is extremely precarious right now. You wil be paid 1/4 - 1/3 of a physician's salary and have the same amount of debt. And I'm not sure how you can even consider applying when you have no experience in the field whatsoever.

The most important question is, what are these aspects of human medicine that "really turn you off"?

These issues might be (and most likely are) just as prevalent in veterinary medicine and you are simply unaware.We also have our own distasteful or unfortunate practicies that you must be comfortable with - i.e. euthanizing an animal with a fixable problem just because the owner cannot afford treatment, which would never happen in human medicine.We have just as many abusive clients as you do abusive patients. If you are shying away from human medicine because of dealing with people, then please reconsider vet med. Animals cannot speak; you will be dealing almost exclusively with their owners just as you would human patients. You need to have an incredibly thick skin or it will grind you down to the core. To be blunt, there are just as many dinguses here as there are there. The difference is in addition to the dinguses, our actual patients cannot describe what is wrong with them.

Thanks, Frequency. My AMCAS GPA does not include grade forgiveness. My AACOMAS GPA was 3.9+. However, I don't know if that is relevant for vet school applications.

I should also point out that the reason I didn't get accepted is that I only applied to twelve highly-competitive schools and one backup school. The backup didn't pan out for some reason, but my numbers and ECs are fairly solid.

I do plan on spending over a year in the field before applying. I wouldn't even consider applying for this upcoming cycle. I imagine I could get a lot done between now and 2015. At that point, I think I'd have a pretty good idea if veterinary medicine is for me.

Money/debt isn't really an issue. I'm pretty confident that I won't need to take out any loans.

When you say that "the veterinary industry is extremely precarious right now," what do you mean exactly?

Also - and I hope you don't mind me asking this - are you happy to be a DVM? If you could go back, would you choose a different path?

Thanks again.

 

[AndyQC]

You *have* compared the two salaries, right? You aren't just assuming that vets get paid well? Because we don't... so if you went somewhere like Western, you'd be looking at $300k+ in debt with a $60k a year average starting salary at the age of 30 whatever. Maybe the 80 hour work weeks are worth it?

Just food for thought.

Thanks, tigers. It does seem like DVMs get something of a raw deal compared to MD, DO, DDS, etc.

However, money really isn't an issue for me. I sold my business in my mid-20s and don't really need to work. I'm pursuing professional school and a career as an MD or DVM solely because I think I'll enjoy it.

 

[AndyQC]

What is it that "turns you off" about the medical field?

I don't mean to discourage you, but based on your post it sounds like you've become interested in vet school for all the wrong reasons. Vet school is just as competitive as medical school - sometimes more so, because there are fewer schools to apply to - so you'll still be dealing with plenty of rejections before you get accepted. Both human and animal medicine have many of the same downsides, and you'll typically be paid less for your trouble. So before you go pouring a ton of time and energy into preparing for veterinary school, take the time and be honest with yourself about what you're hoping to get out of this field. With such a rigorous program, it really needs to be something you are truly interested in and passionate about, not just your second choice.

Thank you for your feedback. I took a peak at your blog and look forward to reading it later tonight!

 

[AndyQC]

Other posters will have more info, but my input:

1. Average applicants have anywhere from ~500-1000s.
2. Either!
3. Not sure about this. I have my own opinions on it, and that's just what they are...opinions.
4. It depends on the area of the profession you're looking at. Some people say we have an overabundance of small animal and a shortage of large animal vets.
5. I would say they are either receptive or non-receptive. You compete with your application, not your age. I've heard that they might take a "Why now?" approach to reviewing your application if you are older/switching careers.
6. Yes! Your major does not give you any advantages or disadvantages. You just need to complete the pre-reqs required.
7. Can't help you here.
8. Not required (at least not by the vast majority) but it certainly helps your application.

And just so you know...being a vet means you will be practicing medicine just like any human doctor would be . Except I believe it can be more challenging. You say you don't think medicine is for you...is that because you didn't get accepted to any med schools and are bummed out? Or because you truly realize that you didn't want to be a human doctor only after you applied?

Thank you!!!

I definitely believe you when you say that veterinary medicine can be more challenging than its human counterpart.

I am bummed out about not getting into med school, but it could serve as a blessing in disguise. I think that I should at least explore the DVM route before moving forward. If I do some shadowing and hate it, then at least I'll know that I gave it a shot. However, I think there's a good chance that it's a career that I could enjoy.

 

[twelvetigers]

Thanks, tigers. It does seem like DVMs get something of a raw deal compared to MD, DO, DDS, etc.

However, money really isn't an issue for me. I sold my business in my mid-20s and don't really need to work. I'm pursuing professional school and a career as an MD or DVM solely because I think I'll enjoy it.

If money is no object, you may go take a flying leap... and after that, enjoy your career. I think money is the sore spot for veterinary medicine, for sure - the debt to income ratio is pretty terrible. If that's not an issue... well, hell. Just do some more shadowing or working in the field to make sure it really is what you think it is, and then make your decision from there. Of course, you still do have to get in - that's a whole nother ballgame, and I think the ladies above did a good job of explaining what adcoms look for.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

When you say that "the veterinary industry is extremely precarious right now," what do you mean exactly?

Also - and I hope you don't mind me asking this - are you happy to be a DVM? If you could go back, would you choose a different path?
Thanks again.

Finding a job in the field upon graduation, especially in an area you want to be in, is very difficult. Most people I know have only 1-2 total offers and have to go wherever these are. And with increases in class sizes and the opening of new schools, it is only going to get worse.

Well....I can't speak for my colleagues in general practice, because that was never something I wanted to do. I do love being a veterinary pathologist. I do not like having ever-increasing debt that I cannot even pay the interest on because residents and fellows get paid so little. Or the fact that even as a specialist with 6+ years of training AFTER vet school, I am looking at 80-90k in academia or 100-120 in industry (those jobs are few and far between though, now). Would I do it again? Probably, if I could do pathology again. But I wish I had known more about the finances involved or the sad state of the job market before entering.

 

[scb44f]

7) Do any DVM schools besides Western - Pomona accept the MCAT?

Since no one else has stated it and the others have covered anything else I would've said, Cornell and Mizzou also accept the MCAT.

 

[AndyQC]

Searching the forums will be really helpful in answering these questions (see the successful applicants threads).

Applicants can have a very broad range of veterinary hours, but many have in the upper hundreds at least. Many have thousands. You can be successful with fewer.

Experience can be paid or volunteer.

It is a somewhat risky proposition as some aren't even fully accredited yet. No one has been through their curriculum yet, although I assume nothing huge will be a problem.

Career prospects are overall pretty dismal right now. There is a lot of competition for few spots, schools are expanding class sizes and new schools are being accredited, contributing to the oversupply. Salary will never be what a physician makes and debt load is essentially the same; starting salary is around $60k for most small animal practitioners, often less. Essentially, if you would be happy at anything else, it's a safer bet than vet med right now.

Yes to both 5 and 6

You would have to call and ask, but nearly all schools want the GRE.

Research is not at all required, but can be a favorable addition.

The biggest thing you will need to address is your desire to switch fields. What about human med turned you off? Why vet med instead? Until you have some clinical experience, I don't think you'll really be able to answer that, and "because I wasn't successful for med school" isn't going to cut it (neither is "I have always loved animals"). So my advice is to get some experience and figure out if this is really something you want to do before making the change. Good luck to you

Thank you!

It is unfortunate that career prospects are so poor right now. Why is that? The economy?

As I mentioned in my previous post, the length and intensity of training for human med was a major turn off. Beyond that, the ramifications of the ACA are yet to be seen. The field could change quite a bit by 2020!

 

[bbeventer]

I think everyone on this thread, and on the pre-med thread has provided excellent advice, and honestly if I were you I would try for med school a couple more times before switching tracks. The average application cycles for vet med is 2.5 before getting accepted. I am not sure how the med school application works, but it seems a bit premature to jump ship after a couple of rejections and walk into unknown territory full of landmines. I don't have much to add, WTF pretty much covered everything I would want to say, but just a side note since you keep bringing up the length of training in human med vs. vet med post graduation,but it does seem that the field is moving in the general direction of desiring internships out of graduates (I think for a mixture of lack of jobs and vet med becoming more specialized).

 

[nyanko]

The average application cycles for vet med is 2.5 before getting accepted..

I don't really think this is true

also OP you should forget about going to vet school and pay my loans back instead.

 

[that redhead]

It is unfortunate that career prospects are so poor right now. Why is that? The economy?

Class sizes are being expanded rather dramatically, tuition is increasing and new schools are being accredited, leading to an abundance of new graduates being churned out every year with a lot debt. New jobs aren't necessarily opening up at an equal rate, large animal medicine moves further and further from needing a veterinarian for "normal" vet care, the debt:income ratio is pathetic and the AVMA is essentially burying their heads in the sand.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Class sizes are being expanded rather dramatically, tuition is increasing and new schools are being accredited, leading to an abundance of new graduates being churned out every year with a lot debt. New jobs aren't necessarily opening up at an equal rate, large animal medicine moves further and further from needing a veterinarian for "normal" vet care, the debt:income ratio is pathetic and the AVMA is essentially burying their heads in the sand.

Another thing to think about: while the market isn't totally huge yet, you can buy your pet's vaccines (minus rabies) through the internet. You can't do that for humans. We have plenty of clients who only come to us for rabies or more serious issues because they do their own vaccines (or don't vaccinate at all). A lot of people put pet preventative care on the backburner, then choose to euthanize when their pet takes a bad turn. While it is a labor of love, your business could bring in a lot of revenue each year if those same people brought their pets in for yearly exams. Frontline is now sold at your average grocery store. Pharmacies are now advertising that they have pet meds (and then the actual 1-800-PetMeds pharmacy exists).

Just a few examples of where veterinarians lose major business. Which leads to less jobs, lower salaries, etc.

 

[StartingoverVet]

@AndyQC -

Some of what you discussed sounds familiar (I was a non-traditional where financials were not too much of a concern)…

* I have to say that the idea of having to go through internship and residency to specialize in vet med was also an issue. I am much more suited to be a specialist than a generalist… and I was not sure I had it in me to make it through those programs. If you think general practice is for you, then that is good to know.
* I applied with pretty much the minimum hours ~500. All my vet med experience was done at one clinic where I shadowed/volunteered. It wasn't a problem as long as you apply carefully.
* Even though financials don't matter to you, I have to say, there is a certain amount of frustration knowing the state of the industry. It might not matter for salary now, but it does leave you with less flexibility if you have any sort of roots.
* Also, I never got over the feeling that everyone was more qualified than I was in school. The people with practical experience were eons beyond me, and the academic oriented could memorize the phone book and spew it back on exams, and remember it later on. I couldn't remember what I studied the next day…. And I am not normally a person to lack in confidence. I feel like after a couple of years of school I was finally ready to start over again to actually get something out of the classes.

Depending on where you shadow you can get a very skewed view of the industry. I spent my time at an upscale established practice in a high end community. Life is very different for 99% of the vets out there.

I support your decision to take some time to get and know the industry, and if you are interested, then all the rest will probably fall in place. I wouldn't put too much worry about finding schools that take the MCAT, the GRE is not really a particularly time intensive test to prepare for in comparison.

 

[AndyQC]

Another thing to think about: while the market isn't totally huge yet, you can buy your pet's vaccines (minus rabies) through the internet. You can't do that for humans. We have plenty of clients who only come to us for rabies or more serious issues because they do their own vaccines (or don't vaccinate at all). A lot of people put pet preventative care on the backburner, then choose to euthanize when their pet takes a bad turn. While it is a labor of love, your business could bring in a lot of revenue each year if those same people brought their pets in for yearly exams. Frontline is now sold at your average grocery store. Pharmacies are now advertising that they have pet meds (and then the actual 1-800-PetMeds pharmacy exists).

Just a few examples of where veterinarians lose major business. Which leads to less jobs, lower salaries, etc.

That is an excellent point. Sounds like Frontline, etc. is good for consumers, bad for DVMs. I can totally understand how those companies could have a crushing effect on DVMs. It is unfortunate, but I guess that's just the free market.

 

[AndyQC]

@AndyQC -

Some of what you discussed sounds familiar (I was a non-traditional where financials were not too much of a concern)…

* I have to say that the idea of having to go through internship and residency to specialize in vet med was also an issue. I am much more suited to be a specialist than a generalist… and I was not sure I had it in me to make it through those programs. If you think general practice is for you, then that is good to know.
* I applied with pretty much the minimum hours ~500. All my vet med experience was done at one clinic where I shadowed/volunteered. It wasn't a problem as long as you apply carefully.
* Even though financials don't matter to you, I have to say, there is a certain amount of frustration knowing the state of the industry. It might not matter for salary now, but it does leave you with less flexibility if you have any sort of roots.
* Also, I never got over the feeling that everyone was more qualified than I was in school. The people with practical experience were eons beyond me, and the academic oriented could memorize the phone book and spew it back on exams, and remember it later on. I couldn't remember what I studied the next day…. And I am not normally a person to lack in confidence. I feel like after a couple of years of school I was finally ready to start over again to actually get something out of the classes.

Depending on where you shadow you can get a very skewed view of the industry. I spent my time at an upscale established practice in a high end community. Life is very different for 99% of the vets out there.

I support your decision to take some time to get and know the industry, and if you are interested, then all the rest will probably fall in place. I wouldn't put too much worry about finding schools that take the MCAT, the GRE is not really a particularly time intensive test to prepare for in comparison.

Thank you!

You have a very good point about shadowing. The same applies to human medicine. Huge difference between the dermatologist in Beverly Hills and the infectious disease specialist at the community clinic in Barstow. Almost like two completely different professions. I would imagine that there are even larger discrepancies in the veterinarian experience, especially if you include large animal care.

I have to ask you the same question I asked Frequency: are you happy with your decision to pursue vet med? It sounds like there are a lot of drawbacks, but that it may be a worthwhile pursuit if money is not an issue.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I have to ask you the same question I asked Frequency: are you happy with your decision to pursue vet med? It sounds like there are a lot of drawbacks, but that it may be a worthwhile pursuit if money is not an issue.

Hmm.
Interesting question as I am no longer pursuing vet med.

Knowing what I do now…. it seems like the wrong decision at the wrong time, but I don't think I have had enough time to distance myself from the decision to leave yet.

 

[razzledazzleme]

Hello -

I am currently in the process of applying to medical schools but have had no luck thus far. Throughout the essays and interviews, I've begun to wonder if medicine is really for me. I love that it is fast-paced and intellectually stimulating, but there are a number of aspects of the field that really turn me off.

I have begun to think about pursuing a career as a veterinarian. However, I know next to nothing about the application process. I hope that someone won't mind answering some very basic questions to help me along:

1) How many hours of clinical experience are expected?
2) Does clinical experience have to be volunteer work or is paid clinical experience (eg - vet tech) acceptable?
3) Is it a risky proposition to apply to brand new vet schools (eg - Midwestern in AZ)?
4) What are the career prospects after graduation?
5) Are DVM schools receptive to non-traditional (see: older) applicants?
6) Are DVM schools receptive to applicants from all majors?
7) Do any DVM schools besides Western - Pomona accept the MCAT?
8) Is research typically required?

Thank you for your feedback! I know that I am a complete newbie and I truly appreciate any insight.

Here is a link to my WAMC thread over in the pre-med forum. It describes my current situation and what my med school application looks like:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/38-mcat-3-6-gpa-what-went-wrong.1060019/

I actually took a very similar path to vet med. I went through school as a biology major, did my shadowing, and never really "felt" it when I was thinking about medical school. I took time to get my Master's and I've been working for the past three years, and I'm very happy I took this time to think about things.
Looking at your WAMC, it is very similar to what happened to a friend of mine (he ended up getting into a medical school on his third try). He had a 36 on his MCAT, strong references, job experience, and shadowing hours. I would joke with him and say he had "middle class white male" syndrome, but I really believed it at times. It seems like med schools are so concerned with diversity lately that students who have the ability to be great are getting pushed to the side to increase diversity numbers. That's just my personal thought though.

1) As far as clinical experience, really the more the better. I had a lot of lab animal shadowing going for me since I worked with mice for 3+ years and always did the walk throughs with the vet. Never thought that would end up coming in handy, but it gave me about 150 shadowing hours. For the rest of my clinical hours, I had only decided to commit to this path the Dec. 2012, so I had to work my tail off to get enough hours. Since I worked during the week (but luckily for the university, so I still got breaks), I would shadow on weekends, breaks, and any after hours emergencies the doctor's would remember to call me for. It become clear to me very early on that I made the right decision. Figured if I loved shadowing, I would love the job. I ended up with about 500 hours, and from what I've seen, that's on the lower side of things. You're going up against techs who have thousands of shadowing hours and people that knew they've wanted to do this since freshman year of college. I wouldn't be discouraged though. I've already been accepted to an OOS school and am waiting to hear back from my in state.
2)As everyone has said, either will work. I didn't have any paid experience.
3)As long as they are accredited, I don't think I would worry about it. Vet school is different than med school just because there are a lot fewer schools. So if that is your in state school, you're more likely to be accepted there. I would definitely apply.
4) As far as career prospects, it more so depends on what you'd like to go into. Many places need large animal vets. Small animal jobs can be a little more difficult I think, just because that's the most common discipline people go into. I'm looking more into lab animal vet and there is a definite need for vets in research. I spent a lot of time in PS talking about that. Really, just kind of depends on what you're thinking about.
5) I'm 27 and I don't feel like I had a problem with the admissions process. I've seen people on these threads in their 40s apply to and be accepted to vet schools. Same with medical school. One of my friends I went to undergrad with was in his 40s with three kids and he was accepted. I think they look at experience and desire over age.
6) A lot of schools will show a break down of accepted applicants and their majors. As long as you meet the prereqs, it shouldn't matter. Same with med schools. People with art or math degrees get accepted, just as long as they meet the admissions requirements. I think sometimes they even like the non-traditional path. My undergrad was cell and molecular biology, and was almost exclusively human-based. I made sure to discuss that in my PS how I thought it would still help me in vet school, while still leaving the door open to learn a lot more. I also spoke about a desire to participate in translational medicine, so a human-focused background would really help with that.
7) Cornell, Mizzou, Ohio state, Western all will. Though honestly, you killed the MCAT. If you took the GRE you probably would kill it too and open up more options for schools to apply to.
8) I don't think research is required, but it's just another thing that helps with your application. I think a lot of people have some sort of undergrad research, even if it's only a few hours.

Feel free to PM any other questions you have. Like I said, seems like we took a pretty similar path to get to this point. I never went through to applying to med schools just because I couldn't fathom spending that much money and not being sure about it. I applied to two schools for vet school and even that was $500. Crazy. But it all worked out well in the end. Good luck!

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I actually took a very similar path to vet med. I went through school as a biology major, did my shadowing, and never really "felt" it when I was thinking about medical school. I took time to get my Master's and I've been working for the past three years, and I'm very happy I took this time to think about things.
Looking at your WAMC, it is very similar to what happened to a friend of mine (he ended up getting into a medical school on his third try). He had a 36 on his MCAT, strong references, job experience, and shadowing hours. I would joke with him and say he had "middle class white male" syndrome, but I really believed it at times. It seems like med schools are so concerned with diversity lately that students who have the ability to be great are getting pushed to the side to increase diversity numbers. That's just my personal thought though.

Except in vet med, it's "middle class white female" syndrome...

 

[razzledazzleme]

Except in vet med, it's "middle class white female" syndrome...

Isn't that the truth...

 

[that redhead]

4) As far as career prospects, it more so depends on what you'd like to go into. Many places need large animal vets. Small animal jobs can be a little more difficult I think, just because that's the most common discipline people go into. I'm looking more into lab animal vet and there is a definite need for vets in research. I spent a lot of time in PS talking about that. Really, just kind of depends on what you're thinking about.

I think it's a commonly perpetuated misconception that there is a need for large animal and even lab animal vets. Large animal medicine continues to evolve so that producers do a lot of their own medicine and only really look to the vet for surgeries and more preventative medicine stuff which, if you think about it, can be more easily covered by fewer vets if there isn't always the need to spend hours at a farm doing procedural work. There is a need for large animal vets if you look at it from the perspective of large animal vets per square mile or per farm, but many of the existing practices don't want to give up clients and clients may not want to switch over to a new vet just because they may be closer.

As for lab animal, there is still a need for these vets but it's not nearly the free for all it was made out to be a few years back. I think a lot of people approach lab animal as a guarantee for a high paying job right out of school, but the reality is that a lot of the jobs available are for senior or supervising veterinarians that require at least 5 years of experience if not much more. Board certification is another either required or highly desirable trait, and that comes after a residency or six years of experience (and a first authorship) which is another time "sink" for a new graduate wanting a job. Don't get me wrong, I still consider it a better prospect than say, a small animal vet in a desirable location, but I think it's wise to take what "They" say with a grain of salt.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I think it's a commonly perpetuated misconception that there is a need for large animal and even lab animal vets. Large animal medicine continues to evolve so that producers do a lot of their own medicine and only really look to the vet for surgeries and more preventative medicine stuff which, if you think about it, can be more easily covered by fewer vets if there isn't always the need to spend hours at a farm doing procedural work. There is a need for large animal vets if you look at it from the perspective of large animal vets per square mile or per farm, but many of the existing practices don't want to give up clients and clients may not want to switch over to a new vet just because they may be closer.

As for lab animal, there is still a need for these vets but it's not nearly the free for all it was made out to be a few years back. I think a lot of people approach lab animal as a guarantee for a high paying job right out of school, but the reality is that a lot of the jobs available are for senior or supervising veterinarians that require at least 5 years of experience if not much more. Board certification is another either required or highly desirable trait, and that comes after a residency or six years of experience (and a first authorship) which is another time "sink" for a new graduate wanting a job. Don't get me wrong, I still consider it a better prospect than say, a small animal vet in a desirable location, but I think it's wise to take what "They" say with a grain of salt.

This. For almost everyone. People need to stop parroting this line that has been disavowed for several years now.

Although to be honest, this is more of a misconception about economics.
most areas that "need" LA vets, don't have enough cases/income to support one.

BUT, for the rare person like the OP where money is no issue, maybe he is willing to work for peanuts/operate a money-losing practice.
In that case, there probably are plenty of opportunities (although that word is really a misnomer).

He would essentially be a vet that did charity work (not in name, but almost in reality).

 

[that redhead]

BUT, for the rare person like the OP where money is no issue, maybe he is willing to work for peanuts/operate a money-losing practice.
In that case, there probably are plenty of opportunities (although that word is really a misnomer).

He would essentially be a vet that did charity work (not in name, but almost in reality).

Amen on the first part.

I doubt he'd be working for charity for his whole career. I think his financial security would carry him over in the early stages when lack of immediate hiring would be severely detrimental to a new grad who had loan repayment coming up fast. He'd have the cushion to be able to job hunt for a longer period of time, and maybe snag a spot between graduating classes. I imagine most people wind up with a job eventually, but they're sacrificing on desirability and/or pay. With enough financial security, he wouldn't have to worry about that and he could coast through until he got something he found suitable. It's certainly a nice position to be in.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

This. For almost everyone. People need to stop parroting this line that has been disavowed for several years now.

Although to be honest, this is more of a misconception about economics.
most areas that "need" LA vets, don't have enough cases/income to support one.

BUT, for the rare person like the OP where money is no issue, maybe he is willing to work for peanuts/operate a money-losing practice.
In that case, there probably are plenty of opportunities (although that word is really a misnomer).

He would essentially be a vet that did charity work (not in name, but almost in reality).

This is actually a good point. There's a vet in the area who became a vet as a "side job." She runs a pharmaceuticals company or something and now owns a clinic and sees a few cases.

I've always been told that there are definitely fewer LA vets than SA. However, like mentioned, you're dealing with a group that (especially food animal) doesn't always spend a lot on preventative care. This is mostly because these animals aren't around very long before they are slaughtered or sold elsewhere. Horses are more of a long-term animal, much like dogs or cats. But when you look at beef, dairy, swine or sheep, you're looking at animals that are churning profits for just a few years, then removed from the herd. What do you do with a dairy cow that breaks her leg? Euthanize. With a dog, you'd normally treat it.

In addition to what I said above, I've also been told that farmers (usually the smaller businesses) simply can't afford care. In comes buying your vaccines and wormers online. That, and even though I've taken a strong liking to working with large animals, frankly you will get beat on every day. I haven't met a farm manager or LA vet who wasn't walking with a limp yet.

They're telling us pre-vets now that the government needs grads, and desperately. USDA, DNR, and whatever law-making groups you can think of. And industrial vets, too. Pet food companies, vaccine manufacturers, etc. Here is where you supposedly find the triple-digit salaries .

 

[dyachei]

They're telling us pre-vets now that the government needs grads, and desperately. USDA, DNR, and whatever law-making groups you can think of. An industrial vets, too. Pet food companies, vaccine manufacturers, etc. Here is where you supposedly find the triple-digit salaries .

Also not entirely true.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Also not entirely true.

Never said it was. Just that we're being told this, and repeatedly. We're still hearing the LA vet shortage spiel as well. I think it is because speakers and whoever else is telling us this are simply looking at the numbers put out by the AVMA. I can tell you that there is no LA vet within 30 miles of my hometown, but there are at least 8 SA vets I can think of off the top of my head. However, we are not rolling in cows (there are some, but not worth having a local LA vet).

I think this misleads a lot of pre-vets. After the class where the government work was described, I heard several classmates talking about how they now wanted to pursue that for the money. "$100k?! Why would I do small animal at $45-65k when I can make almost double that!" But what are the chances of getting those jobs? You need years of experience, sometimes political experience....

 

[dyachei]

Never said it was. Just that we're being told this, and repeatedly. We're still hearing the LA vet shortage spiel as well. I think it is because speakers and whoever else is telling us this are simply looking at the numbers put out by the AVMA. I can tell you that there is no LA vet within 30 miles of my hometown, but there are at least 8 SA vets I can think of off the top of my head. However, we are not rolling in cows (there are some, but not worth having a local LA vet).

I think this misleads a lot of pre-vets. After the class where the government work was described, I heard several classmates talking about how they now wanted to pursue that for the money. "$100k?! Why would I do small animal at $45-65k when I can make almost double that!" But what are the chances of getting those jobs? You need years of experience, sometimes political experience....

I just wanted to be sure people knew that it's not...

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I just wanted to be sure people knew that it's not...

I understand. From what I know, it looks like there is a general trend in vet med every few decades. There was a move to SA, then to LA, now to the 'forgotten' lab, industry, and government vets. We're still being taught that lab animal vets tend to make triple-digit salaries, too. If I was interested in this, I already know there probably isn't a need. My campus has somewhere in the 50,000 range of lab animals, yet we only have one campus lab vet. And we have dairy, beef, sheep, swine, poultry, and horse farms with only one LA vet.

 

[MassDVMMPH]

There are actually a lot of USDA meat-processing plant jobs, but the working conditions are beyond horrible and the vets working there have no real authority - when they try to do the right thing, they are overruled and ridiculed - see Dr. Wyatt and his testimony to Congress. Whenever there are "lots of job openings for vets," rest assured that there is a solid reason that there are openings. Other vets are not stupid - there is a reason they do not want to work there.

A blurb about Dr. Wyatt lifted from an internet article, in case you don't know about him (he's an unsung hero in my book):

Another federal meat inspector who spoke out about the broken system was veterinarian Dean Wyatt. The Food Safety and Inspection Service Supervisory Public Health Veterinarian from Williston, VT testified at Congressional hearings in 2010 about federal inspectors’ shocking lack of authority in slaughter plants. Plant managers openly defied the federal inspectors he said and workers followed suit, actually ridiculing them.

Both Wyatt and public health veterinarian, Deena Gregory, reported that they witnessed a Seaboard employee hit an, “animal hard in the face and nose 8–12 times,” but David Ganzel, DVM, the District Veterinary Medical Specialist, deemed the acts was not “egregious,” hence not a violation, said Wyatt in his Congressional testimony. Seaboard employees began to snicker when Wyatt walked past.

Food Safety and Inspection Service officials overtly served plant managers not the government, food consumers, employees or the animals. Dr. Wyatt was instructed not to file violation reports—not to do his job—and official reports were sanitized and deleted. In one report of an employee abusively throwing an animal, the word “threw” was changed to “dropped” he testified.

Shortly after testifying to Congress in 2010, Dean Wyatt, DVM, died of brain cancer at the age of 59. He was a second-generation federal meat inspector and told Congress “Public service is in my blood.” His father died in the “line of duty,” he said, contracting a lethal pathogen at a turkey slaughter plant he inspected.

- See more at: http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/10015#sthash.FSWMDCw7.dpuf

 

[BlackDog17]

The fact is that there's an "overcapacity" (as the AVMA likes to put it) of veterinarians, regardless of what field you look at. With the current lack of jobs in vet med everyone is branching out into specialty fields, and there's no real "shortage" anywhere.

Besides that, by the time someone who is currently just developing an interest in vet med completes their pre-reqs, applies, gets accepted, and finishes vet school, any shortage that actually did exist would be filled. The job market changes year to year, and we've got thousands of new vet grads scrambling to find jobs anywhere they can. You'll be spending a solid 4 years in veterinary school and another 1-5 years on internships and residency if you choose to specialize. So debating which "shortages" exist now is completely worthless. They won't be the same when you graduate. Choosing to pursue vet med or a particular specialty based on whatever the currently perceived shortage is would be a terrible decision.

 

[MassDVMMPH]

Just taken off the USAJOBS site - over 515 locations looking for vets for meat processing plant work:

Job Title:Supervisory/Veterinary Medical Officer (PHV) GS-701-11/GS-701-12

Department:Department Of Agriculture

Agency:Food Safety and Inspection Service

Job Announcement Number:VMO-264332-13

SALARY RANGE:$57,982.00 to $90,344.00 / Per Year
OPEN PERIOD:Tuesday, January 28, 2014 to Monday, March 31, 2014
SERIES & GRADE:GS-0701-03/04
POSITION INFORMATION:Full Time - Permanent
DUTY LOCATIONS:Many vacancies in the following location(s):
North Pole, AK View Map
Palmer, AK View Map
Albertville, AL View Map
Ashland, AL View Map
Attalla, AL View Map
More Locations (515)
WHO MAY APPLY:United States Citizens
SECURITY CLEARANCE:Not Applicable
SUPERVISORY STATUS:No

 

[that redhead]

We're still being taught that lab animal vets tend to make triple-digit salaries, too. If I was interested in this, I already know there probably isn't a need. My campus has somewhere in the 50,000 range of lab animals, yet we only have one campus lab vet. And we have dairy, beef, sheep, swine, poultry, and horse farms with only one LA vet.

Lab animal vets do make triple digits, when they get into the more established positions. Right now though, you can't get to those positions without some experience, and while the "entry level" jobs pay decently, there aren't as many to go around. Not to mention a lot are funded by either federal or state governments which are cinching their purses and there isn't always the funding to add in more vets.

The thing about lab animal vets is, there isn't the same amount of clinical care as a primary level practitioner. Often animals aren't kept around very long and there are such stringent intake requirements, biosecurity measures and end-points in studies that health major health issues are relatively rare. A lot of their clinical work is assisting researchers with their procedures - surgeries and the like. Lab animal vets do a goodly amount of administrative work to fill in the rest of their work hours; that kind of thing appeals to me but not to everyone. This is why it's easy to have one vet for a huge group of animals.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

There are actually a lot of USDA meat-processing plant jobs, but the working conditions are beyond horrible and the vets working there have no real authority - when they try to do the right thing, they are overruled and ridiculed - see Dr. Wyatt and his testimony to Congress. Whenever there are "lots of job openings for vets," rest assured that there is a solid reason that there are openings. Other vets are not stupid - there is a reason they do not want to work there.

A blurb about Dr. Wyatt lifted from an internet article, in case you don't know about him (he's an unsung hero in my book):

Another federal meat inspector who spoke out about the broken system was veterinarian Dean Wyatt. The Food Safety and Inspection Service Supervisory Public Health Veterinarian from Williston, VT testified at Congressional hearings in 2010 about federal inspectors’ shocking lack of authority in slaughter plants. Plant managers openly defied the federal inspectors he said and workers followed suit, actually ridiculing them.

Both Wyatt and public health veterinarian, Deena Gregory, reported that they witnessed a Seaboard employee hit an, “animal hard in the face and nose 8–12 times,” but David Ganzel, DVM, the District Veterinary Medical Specialist, deemed the acts was not “egregious,” hence not a violation, said Wyatt in his Congressional testimony. Seaboard employees began to snicker when Wyatt walked past.

Food Safety and Inspection Service officials overtly served plant managers not the government, food consumers, employees or the animals. Dr. Wyatt was instructed not to file violation reports—not to do his job—and official reports were sanitized and deleted. In one report of an employee abusively throwing an animal, the word “threw” was changed to “dropped” he testified.

Shortly after testifying to Congress in 2010, Dean Wyatt, DVM, died of brain cancer at the age of 59. He was a second-generation federal meat inspector and told Congress “Public service is in my blood.” His father died in the “line of duty,” he said, contracting a lethal pathogen at a turkey slaughter plant he inspected.

- See more at: http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/10015#sthash.FSWMDCw7.dpuf

welp, my stomach has been turned. Honestly, the fear of not finding employment after digging myself into a debt grave is the only reason I can think of to not become a vet. And it's a pretty darn good reason at that.

 

[MouseWrangler]

Hi Andy,

I'm in a somewhat similar place as you are. I did go to an MD school a few years back for 2 years and I was miserable there. I loved the medicine side of it but I couldn't stand the fakeness of the scripts we were graded on when learning how to "care" about patients or the politics of the specific school I was at. I will also be applying to DVM schools this coming application cycle. Since I'm also somewhat new to the veterinary side of medicine, I can only answer a few of your questions.

1. Most schools require 250-500 hours minimum, but the average accepted students usually have 1000-2000+ hours. Every school (with the exception of the 2 new schools) has on their website somewhere the statistics from their previous classes.
2. Both! From talking to my pre-vet advisor, volunteering is really important, but also, if you have paid experience, it shows you already have dedication to the field and some valuable experience.
3. I am personally staying far away from the 2 new schools. The MD school I was at was a fairly new school and that greatly contributed to why I left.
5/6. Yes and yes! They want well-rounded students. Take advantage of being a little older with your personal statement - you have real-world life experience.
7. As far as I have read, Western and Ohio State are the only 2 that accept the MCAT. With a 38 on your MCAT you should have no problem scoring very well on the GRE.
8. It isn't required but I know that schools want to see that you have varied your animal experience. Having research animal experience will certainly set you apart from the thousands of applicants that just have cat/dog experience.

My pre-vet advisor recommended a book to me that I would highly recommend you get a copy of. It's called Veterinary Medical School Admission Requirements by the AAVMC. It's pretty cheap on Amazon and worth every penny. Good luck on which ever application process you decide to pursue!

 

[AndyQC]

Just wanted to pop in and express my sincere gratitude for all of the responses. You guys/girls have been really helpful! Will post my thoughts (and a couple more questions) later tonight.

Hope y'all are enjoying the weekend!

 

[anesthtc]

Hello -

I am currently in the process of applying to medical schools but have had no luck thus far. Throughout the essays and interviews, I've begun to wonder if medicine is really for me. I love that it is fast-paced and intellectually stimulating, but there are a number of aspects of the field that really turn me off.

I have begun to think about pursuing a career as a veterinarian. However, I know next to nothing about the application process. I hope that someone won't mind answering some very basic questions to help me along:

1) How many hours of clinical experience are expected?
2) Does clinical experience have to be volunteer work or is paid clinical experience (eg - vet tech) acceptable?
3) Is it a risky proposition to apply to brand new vet schools (eg - Midwestern in AZ)?
4) What are the career prospects after graduation?
5) Are DVM schools receptive to non-traditional (see: older) applicants?
6) Are DVM schools receptive to applicants from all majors?
7) Do any DVM schools besides Western - Pomona accept the MCAT?
8) Is research typically required?

Thank you for your feedback! I know that I am a complete newbie and I truly appreciate any insight.

Here is a link to my WAMC thread over in the pre-med forum. It describes my current situation and what my med school application looks like:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/38-mcat-3-6-gpa-what-went-wrong.1060019/

I think one of your biggest concerns will be how you're going to frame your switch from human to veterinary medicine. I'm sure you've noticed by now that the vet community is pretty sensitive to the amount of work it takes to become a vet and that any hint of "falling back" on veterinary medicine will completely destroy your chances into the field. You're going to be asked what motivated you to switch, and the reasons need to be good ones. Likewise you can't just state that veterinary medicine is similar to human medicine without the things that turn you off, because there will be 10 applicants interviewing right after you that have several good reasons and the experience to back it up.

But like most have said here, don't do it for the cash. That's not to say you can't earn a respectable amount of money after several years of hard work and good business sense, but there are much better fields to go in if you're looking to chase fat stacks.

 

[AndyQC]

I actually took a very similar path to vet med. I went through school as a biology major, did my shadowing, and never really "felt" it when I was thinking about medical school. I took time to get my Master's and I've been working for the past three years, and I'm very happy I took this time to think about things.
Looking at your WAMC, it is very similar to what happened to a friend of mine (he ended up getting into a medical school on his third try). He had a 36 on his MCAT, strong references, job experience, and shadowing hours. I would joke with him and say he had "middle class white male" syndrome, but I really believed it at times. It seems like med schools are so concerned with diversity lately that students who have the ability to be great are getting pushed to the side to increase diversity numbers. That's just my personal thought though.

1) As far as clinical experience, really the more the better. I had a lot of lab animal shadowing going for me since I worked with mice for 3+ years and always did the walk throughs with the vet. Never thought that would end up coming in handy, but it gave me about 150 shadowing hours. For the rest of my clinical hours, I had only decided to commit to this path the Dec. 2012, so I had to work my tail off to get enough hours. Since I worked during the week (but luckily for the university, so I still got breaks), I would shadow on weekends, breaks, and any after hours emergencies the doctor's would remember to call me for. It become clear to me very early on that I made the right decision. Figured if I loved shadowing, I would love the job. I ended up with about 500 hours, and from what I've seen, that's on the lower side of things. You're going up against techs who have thousands of shadowing hours and people that knew they've wanted to do this since freshman year of college. I wouldn't be discouraged though. I've already been accepted to an OOS school and am waiting to hear back from my in state.
2)As everyone has said, either will work. I didn't have any paid experience.
3)As long as they are accredited, I don't think I would worry about it. Vet school is different than med school just because there are a lot fewer schools. So if that is your in state school, you're more likely to be accepted there. I would definitely apply.
4) As far as career prospects, it more so depends on what you'd like to go into. Many places need large animal vets. Small animal jobs can be a little more difficult I think, just because that's the most common discipline people go into. I'm looking more into lab animal vet and there is a definite need for vets in research. I spent a lot of time in PS talking about that. Really, just kind of depends on what you're thinking about.
5) I'm 27 and I don't feel like I had a problem with the admissions process. I've seen people on these threads in their 40s apply to and be accepted to vet schools. Same with medical school. One of my friends I went to undergrad with was in his 40s with three kids and he was accepted. I think they look at experience and desire over age.
6) A lot of schools will show a break down of accepted applicants and their majors. As long as you meet the prereqs, it shouldn't matter. Same with med schools. People with art or math degrees get accepted, just as long as they meet the admissions requirements. I think sometimes they even like the non-traditional path. My undergrad was cell and molecular biology, and was almost exclusively human-based. I made sure to discuss that in my PS how I thought it would still help me in vet school, while still leaving the door open to learn a lot more. I also spoke about a desire to participate in translational medicine, so a human-focused background would really help with that.
7) Cornell, Mizzou, Ohio state, Western all will. Though honestly, you killed the MCAT. If you took the GRE you probably would kill it too and open up more options for schools to apply to.
8) I don't think research is required, but it's just another thing that helps with your application. I think a lot of people have some sort of undergrad research, even if it's only a few hours.

Feel free to PM any other questions you have. Like I said, seems like we took a pretty similar path to get to this point. I never went through to applying to med schools just because I couldn't fathom spending that much money and not being sure about it. I applied to two schools for vet school and even that was $500. Crazy. But it all worked out well in the end. Good luck!

Thanks, Razzledazzle! I agree with your point regarding "middle class white male syndrome." I support schools' diversity initiative, but I think that the definition of "diversity" needs to be extended beyond skin color and SES. I felt that my major and life experience should have helped me stand out, but alas, it was not meant to be.

I am going to make some phone calls tomorrow and see if I can arrange some shadowing. I hope that I am able to find someone willing to take me on for a week or so. If I enjoy that, there are a huge number of entry-level positions in animal care around here - farms, shelters, clinics, etc. I should be able to find a decent full-time gig that will allow me to spend some time in the trenches. 2,000 hours by June 2015 seems feasible.

Also - thanks for the info regarding the schools that accept the MCAT. I wouldn't mind taking the GRE, but I felt that a high MCAT score would be an asset.

Appreciate all your help! I may PM you if I have more questions moving forward.

 

[AndyQC]

Hi Andy,

I'm in a somewhat similar place as you are. I did go to an MD school a few years back for 2 years and I was miserable there. I loved the medicine side of it but I couldn't stand the fakeness of the scripts we were graded on when learning how to "care" about patients or the politics of the specific school I was at. I will also be applying to DVM schools this coming application cycle. Since I'm also somewhat new to the veterinary side of medicine, I can only answer a few of your questions.

1. Most schools require 250-500 hours minimum, but the average accepted students usually have 1000-2000+ hours. Every school (with the exception of the 2 new schools) has on their website somewhere the statistics from their previous classes.
2. Both! From talking to my pre-vet advisor, volunteering is really important, but also, if you have paid experience, it shows you already have dedication to the field and some valuable experience.
3. I am personally staying far away from the 2 new schools. The MD school I was at was a fairly new school and that greatly contributed to why I left.
5/6. Yes and yes! They want well-rounded students. Take advantage of being a little older with your personal statement - you have real-world life experience.
7. As far as I have read, Western and Ohio State are the only 2 that accept the MCAT. With a 38 on your MCAT you should have no problem scoring very well on the GRE.
8. It isn't required but I know that schools want to see that you have varied your animal experience. Having research animal experience will certainly set you apart from the thousands of applicants that just have cat/dog experience.

My pre-vet advisor recommended a book to me that I would highly recommend you get a copy of. It's called Veterinary Medical School Admission Requirements by the AAVMC. It's pretty cheap on Amazon and worth every penny. Good luck on which ever application process you decide to pursue!

Hey MouseWrangler,

Thanks for the response!

Would you mind elaborating on what you didn't like about medical school? Some aspect of it must have really rubbed you the wrong way to have dropped out after such a large investment. I have only known two people to drop out before, and both did so after their first year. You are the first I've heard of to make it through the preclinical years before deciding it wasn't for you.

Can you specify what the two "new" schools are? Feel free to PM me if you're not comfortable. I know that Midwestern in AZ is very new and Western Pomona opened just a few years ago.

I'll check out the book for sure! Thanks again!

 

[AndyQC]

I think one of your biggest concerns will be how you're going to frame your switch from human to veterinary medicine. I'm sure you've noticed by now that the vet community is pretty sensitive to the amount of work it takes to become a vet and that any hint of "falling back" on veterinary medicine will completely destroy your chances into the field. You're going to be asked what motivated you to switch, and the reasons need to be good ones. Likewise you can't just state that veterinary medicine is similar to human medicine without the things that turn you off, because there will be 10 applicants interviewing right after you that have several good reasons and the experience to back it up.

But like most have said here, don't do it for the cash. That's not to say you can't earn a respectable amount of money after several years of hard work and good business sense, but there are much better fields to go in if you're looking to chase fat stacks.

Thanks!

Would it be unethical not to mention my previous interest in human medicine? I suppose I would have to address how I spent the last few years of my life, but I would hate to give off the impression that vet med was just a backup plan.

 

[DVMDream]

Also - thanks for the info regarding the schools that accept the MCAT. I wouldn't mind taking the GRE, but I felt that a high MCAT score would be an asset.

Honestly, you are going to be applying against a bunch of students that have taken the GRE. Also, the GRE is the main exam used for vet school admissions, so having a high MCAT probably won't be anything too exciting for vet admissions. I am not saying that schools may not take an interest in it, but they are going to be comparing you to other applicants who took the GRE and comparing the GRE to MCAT is like comparing apples to oranges. Also, they are going to want to know why you took the MCAT and not the GRE. Also, you open up the number of schools you can apply to if you take the GRE. Best to just take it. It really isn't a difficult exam.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Thanks!

Would it be unethical not to mention my previous interest in human medicine? I suppose I would have to address how I spent the last few years of my life, but I would hate to give off the impression that vet med was just a backup plan.

I don't think it's unethical to omit your previous interest in human medicine. I mean, the apps don't ask you to disclose everything you've been interested in. But it does ask you to account for any extended gaps in your résumé. If you had a midlife crisis, quit your job and spent 2 yrs shadowing MD's... Then it would probably be to your benefit to explain that you were exploring human medicine, then explain why you drifted to vet med. I don't see why that would be such a horrible thing to say given that you subsequently spent quality time in vet med and knew what you were getting into.

 

[anesthtc]

Thanks!

Would it be unethical not to mention my previous interest in human medicine? I suppose I would have to address how I spent the last few years of my life, but I would hate to give off the impression that vet med was just a backup plan.

Obviously don't leave anything out of your application, but it's very important how you frame your experiences. In any case I wouldn't use the rejection as the motivating spark. Instead you should speak on any simmering concerns/desires you have had over the years that eventually made you change your mind. But also don't make it a "I think vet is better than human med because..." narrative since it's much more convincing to state why you want to do vetmed rather than why you don't want to do something else. Just spend some time thinking about why you think you'd be happier as a veterinarian and what you can do to help the industry.

I guess I'll just warn you now that the schools are definitely going to be wary about a rapid switch into the field and you should expect some tough questions. I know it may seem like a lot of us are pushing back against you and trying to make you question yourself, but that's exactly what the admissions committees are going to try to do. They want to know if you're serious about this since there are thousands of applicants who have "since I was 5" narratives and have been working towards this for years (or decades).