Med school hell

[doozenberg]

I am finishing my 4th year of med school and after reading this I relate to much of what this author speaks of, particularly now:

"52. Your fourth year in medical school will be like a vacation compared to the first three years. It’s a good thing too, because you’ll need one."

Though his tone is biased -- and take it with a grain of salt because my belief is that everyone's experience is somewhat unique -- you'll probably experience or witness at least the majority of what he writes at some point during your four years.

My opinion (and take this, too, with a grain of salt as I still consider myself relatively green within the spectrum) is that it's critical to find the right fit for your specialty -- medicine is still very diverse given the plethora of specialties available and I think it has enough breadth to tolerate most personalities and preferences, even if you don't like taking care of patients directly.

For example, the author of this blog sounds like he might have possibly enjoyed rads or path.

You'll have about 20 different specialty options to choose from immediately after medical school, not including subspecialties in fellowship afterward, so it's not the end of the world if at some point you go to medical school and think you've made the wrong decision. I say if your gut tells you to go, just go for it and see where your interests lead you.

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[NurWollen]

You know, that list didn't really tell me anything I hadn't heard before. Of course, I'm sure it will sink in with more reality when I'm experiencing it myself. But there were positive things about it to.

 

[Kaustikos]

What sorta consulting job is gonna take most people with just a bachelor's in biology? A lot of jobs these days want people to have a MS at least in bio before they take people on cuz they want you to show expertise in the field. I've seen for chemistry majors with a BS however teh job prospects are better.

Pharaceuticals i suppose is a job someone can get with any degree as a I have a friend with a communications degree that went into pharmaceuticals. But that's because it is just being a sales rep mostly. That has nothing to do with the field of biology.

I'm talking about jobs that actually have to do with the field of biology. I suppose teaching is the only one I take seriously that's up there but if most of us wanted to be teachers we'd have gotten a degree in education not biology to do such

If you want to work in pharmaceuticals you need at least a bachelors in chemistry or biochemistry, probably higher. The only job a biology degree holder would be qualified for is a sales representative job, which is a pretty boring way to earn a living.

Good luck teaching with just a bachelors in biology. Most schools look for teachers with a science degree + education concentration...usually a bunch of psychology classes and whatnot. Masters degrees are becoming more and more common, as well.

Consulting? What exactly are you going to consult on with a bachelors in biology?

You're extremely limited with a bachelors in biology, unless you have some natural talents or dual majored in something else.

Wow. You guys don't think anything is possible with a biology degree, do you? You can get a job in pharmaceuticals easily without a masters in biology and in research/lab work.

You can get a job right out of college in certain companies with a bachelors if you have experience. That's the only hurdle.

 

[doozenberg]

You know, that list didn't really tell me anything I hadn't heard before. Of course, I'm sure it will sink in with more reality when I'm experiencing it myself. But there were positive things about it to.

Speaking of sinking in,

"86. Hospitals smell bad"

The smells of certain parts of the hospital are particularly powerful; they sear into your memory.

Apparently olfaction is very closely tied to neural memory circuits.

Touring hospitals across the country for residency interviews, scenes from third year on the wards came rushing back.

 

[smq123]

Oh yea, dentistry.. probably going to get flak for saying this but I think dentists are the biggest jokes ever.

Nice that you keep an open mind.

Dental school is actually a lot more technically challenging than med school. You can survive med school, and get a residency, with lousy hand-eye coordination and crappy fine-motor skills. Dental school, however, has you doing some fairly challenging things from first year.

More flak: I think getting a PharmD is for girls, those who couldn't hack pre-MD and didn't want to go DO, druggies, and those who are really interested in chemistry. I am none of these.

Again, nice that you keep an open mind.

Some people do NOT want to be physicians. They just don't. They don't want to handle crusty diabetic feet with oozing ulcers, do digital rectal exams, manually disimpact 60 year old ladies, do dressing changes on elderly diabetic men with Fournier's gangrene, deliver babies (there's a reason they make you wear impermeable knee-high boots), and hold the bucket while the patient pukes.

Some people look into this whole physician thing, don't like the hours, don't find the hours compatible with the life they already have, and just don't want to touch some patients. And that's fine - there are days when, honestly, I can't blame them.

edit: oh yea opportunity cost.. giving up my twenties? Psh I hardly had much of a social life in middle school, high school and college. I don't enjoy partying and drinking.. I'd much rather go do something outdoors. Rock climbing or surfing anybody? My ability to go outside doesn't end when I turn 30 or even 40.

You have no idea what they're talking about.

It's not JUST about having a social life...it's about having any kind of life outside the hospital.

Like doing something outdoors? If you do something very time intensive, that requires a lot of weekends, you won't be able to go rock climbing OR surfing. Particularly as a lot of the residency programs aren't located in places where either rock climbing or surfing are feasible options.

It's about having meaningful time for a husband/wife/kids. When you see your SO for a grand total of 2-3 hours a day most days out of the week, it makes you wonder how much this is worth it to you. Hopefully your SO will understand, because many don't. A lot of people get divorced in this field, and a lot more develop alcohol and drug addictions.

B/c one of the things I've been looking for when I go on interviews is how many community service activities are available to med students. I didn't know that it didn't really matter.

Community service activities don't matter much for most specialties.

For things like peds and family med, they actually DO matter somewhat.

The real utility of having a lot of community service activities is to get people out of their med school bubbles once in a while. Doing some community service is sometimes also a good way to re-motivate yourself when you're halfway through MS1, sick of studying, and contemplating quitting.

That's why ECs matter, really.

Step 1> 3rd Year grades> 1st two year grades > Research>>>>>Medical school prestige>>>>>>BS ECs

Some residency directors seem to be putting Step 1 = 3rd year grades. Step 1 will get you an interview, but you may be called to defend your 3rd year grades if they're pretty average. (Especially if you only got an average grade for the specialty that you're applying for.)

The AIDs-as-a-weapon thing was kind of new to me. I know its happened, but I would never have thought it would be common enough for a medical student to warn his successors about.

I doubt it was as a weapon. Some patients are just psychotic / delirious / demented, and fling stuff at people.

HIV blood isn't all that scary anyway. It's not great, but you can deal with it.

Hep C blood, though...if I got splashed with Hep C blood, I'd go home, curl up in the fetal position, and bawl for hours. Hep C blood scares me A LOT.

35. Surgeons are *******s. Take my word for it now.

Not all surgeons, and not everywhere.

My peds intern refused to address me or the other med student on the team by our first names - we were both collectively known as "Hey, med student." She also refused to respond when we said "Good morning" to her.

Compare that to the chairman of surgery, who waves when he sees me around the hospital, and calls me by my FIRST name. Or compare that to the director of trauma surgery, who, after I fixed his pager, acted like I had just baked him a batch of cookies or something. (He'd also bring the team candy for ICU rounds.) Or the chief surgery resident who spent 20 minutes on the phone with me, helping me pick a specialty when I was an MS3 last year.

The surgeons were so much nicer than the pediatricians that I worked with. Not EVERYTHING in that list is true everywhere.

 

[MrBurns10]

You have no idea what they're talking about.

It's not JUST about having a social life...it's about having any kind of life outside the hospital.

Like doing something outdoors? If you do something very time intensive, that requires a lot of weekends, you won't be able to go rock climbing OR surfing. Particularly as a lot of the residency programs aren't located in places where either rock climbing or surfing are feasible options.

It's about having meaningful time for a husband/wife/kids. When you see your SO for a grand total of 2-3 hours a day most days out of the week, it makes you wonder how much this is worth it to you. Hopefully your SO will understand, because many don't. A lot of people get divorced in this field, and a lot more develop alcohol and drug addictions.

Seriously. When I was on my surgery rotation (urology for goodness sakes', supposedly the easiest one), I went 3 days without seeing my boyfriend. And we lived together...

And it's not just that. I can honestly say I became an old person on rotations. Whenever I had a free night or a day off, all I wanted to do was sleep. All my invitation conversations went like this:

-Yo burnsie, you want to come out for a movie?
-I guess. I have to be in bed by 9:30, though.
-You working tomorrow?
-No...

As for stereotypes not being true everywhere, I will say that the OB/GYN residents at my school are pretty cool.

 

[BlueElmo]

Seriously. When I was on my surgery rotation (urology for goodness sakes', supposedly the easiest one), I went 3 days without seeing my boyfriend. And we lived together...

And it's not just that. I can honestly say I became an old person on rotations. Whenever I had a free night or a day off, all I wanted to do was sleep. All my invitation conversations went like this:

-Yo burnsie, you want to come out for a movie?
-I guess. I have to be in bed by 9:30, though.
-You working tomorrow?
-No...

As for stereotypes not being true everywhere, I will say that the OB/GYN residents at my school are pretty cool.

So do you basically stay in the hospital day and night during surgery and other rotations?

 

[MrBurns10]

So do you basically stay in the hospital day and night during surgery and other rotations?

No, although some rotations will have overnight call. Ironically enough in that stretch, I didn't have overnight call on urology. The reason I didn't see him was because I would be in bed by the time he got home after studying or IM sports (he's a med student at another school, wasn't on rotations at the time), and I would leave in the morning while he was still sleeping.

Your hours on rotations will depend on many many factors, from what hospital you're at to who your resident is. On surgery though, you can expect to work 12-16 hours a day. I averaged 13-14.

 

[BlueElmo]

In medical school surgery rotation, do you actually do surgical procedures or assist in operations? Or is it observing, other tasks, etc?

 

[MrBurns10]

In medical school surgery rotation, do you actually do surgical procedures or assist in operations? Or is it observing, other tasks, etc?

Surgery is lots of floor work (paperwork, changing bandages, removing drains, etc) and retracting during surgeries while getting pimped and/or appearing fascinated every second of the 3+ hours you're in the OR. You'll ofentimes get to suture at least part of the wound closed. And once in a while, when the resident/attending is in a good mood, you'll get to use the bovie (burns through flesh).

 

[cici1]

Wow. You guys don't think anything is possible with a biology degree, do you? You can get a job in pharmaceuticals easily without a masters in biology and in research/lab work.

You can get a job right out of college in certain companies with a bachelors if you have experience. That's the only hurdle.

Please, do post some companies that hire people with a bachelor's degree in biology for research without previous experience. I would love to see proof of that.

My personal experience: I applied to many pharmaceutical companies, and every time I would get turned down due to not having a master's or lack of research experience. The only job that I was considered for in a pharmaceutical company was being involved with the shipping department...

 

[smq123]

In medical school surgery rotation, do you actually do surgical procedures or assist in operations? Or is it observing, other tasks, etc?

How much you get to do depends on where you do your rotation, and what year you are in.

If you do it at a university hospital, with lots of residents and fellows, you'll be doing exactly what MrBurns described - retracting, suturing the skin once in a while, being pimped, and yes, pretending to be fascinated. Oh, and hearing the phrase "Don't past point with the Bovie! DON'T pass POINT with the BOVIE!" over and over again.

If you do it at a small community hospital, with no residents, you may be allowed to do more. Also, as a 4th year, sometimes the fellow would walk the students through making the initial skin incision, tying off vessels, etc.

It also may depend on the service. On surgical services where the residents have a lot more freedom, they sometimes let students do more. On ENT, I did a LOT of fun stuff - doing trachs and pegs with the resident.

 

[Nanon]

Not all surgeons, and not everywhere.

My peds intern refused to address me or the other med student on the team by our first names - we were both collectively known as "Hey, med student." She also refused to respond when we said "Good morning" to her.

Compare that to the chairman of surgery, who waves when he sees me around the hospital, and calls me by my FIRST name. Or compare that to the director of trauma surgery, who, after I fixed his pager, acted like I had just baked him a batch of cookies or something. (He'd also bring the team candy for ICU rounds.) Or the chief surgery resident who spent 20 minutes on the phone with me, helping me pick a specialty when I was an MS3 last year.

The surgeons were so much nicer than the pediatricians that I worked with. Not EVERYTHING in that list is true everywhere.

Yes, you are right about this. In fact, your descriptions make me wonder if you rotated through my department - now, that would be odd. I think my experiences working in the department full time have given me a peek at some of the most negative aspects of surgery. These people work really f'ing hard. They don't see their significant others and children often. The politics are stifling, the cases are hair-raising, the pressure to produce research is crushing. The biggest problem that I can see, though, is the soul-killing lack of sleep for everyone, including the chair (and sometimes, even me). That, more than anything else, makes surgeons act like a@@holes, and sometimes crazy a@@holes. I understand why, I have compassion for it, but that changes nothing. It's not for everyone. I know it isn't for me.

 

[Dookter]

As for stereotypes not being true everywhere, I will say that the OB/GYN residents at my school are pretty cool.

Agreed. We attend the same school. I went into OBGYN expecting to have my soul eaten when in fact it was probably my most enjoyable rotation overall. If I wanted to do OBGYN I'd be fighting to stay here just because the people were great.

 

[Kaustikos]

Please, do post some companies that hire people with a bachelor's degree in biology for research without previous experience. I would love to see proof of that.

My personal experience: I applied to many pharmaceutical companies, and every time I would get turned down due to not having a master's or lack of research experience. The only job that I was considered for in a pharmaceutical company was being involved with the shipping department...

I said experience included. I'm sorry if you were confused by that.

Okay, FINE. If you ONLY have a biology degree, yes it's worthless. But that's the same with ANY degree. No experience = ****can degree

 

[badasshairday]

Seriously though, premeds, think about what you are getting into before you get there. Really weigh the negatives. I have a feeling that many don't consider it because they are so caught up in the premed competition. My classmates were having doubts, and there are days I doubt myself on this path. In the end it is worth it for me, but for others it can be terrible. It can suck the life out of you. You will feel like ****. This goes for the men and women.

Special advice for the females. Ladies, really weigh it out. Realistically, having a family is tough not only during training, but even as an attending (and when you are an attending, you will be relatively old for having kids). All I am saying is, think about it!

Medical school and beyond is not the unicorns and rainbows it is painted to be by premeds. Nilf, Panda, and the Med School Hell guy have really valid points. Talk to your friends and med school and see what the med school posters say on SDN. Is it worth it? It is up to you.

 

[Kaustikos]

Medical school and beyond is not the unicorns and rainbows it is painted to be by premeds. Nilf, Panda, and the Med School Hell guy have really valid points. Talk to your friends and med school and see what the med school posters say on SDN. Is it worth it? It is up to you.

Well...great. Thanks.



But honestly, living in a hospital for 25 years and being surrounded by physicians/residents/attendings all telling me this, you'd think I would've turned around and evacuated by now...

 

[Katatonic]

Medschoolhell is a great blog, when I used to read it, and he had a lot of good real-world information. I second the fact that anybody who is pre-med and hasn't really sat down and thought about why they're doing it or other things they may be interested in, they're doing themselves a disservice. After almost a year of trying to find out what I want to do, I finally found out, and it's NOT medicine. So, no matter how dedicated you think you are to it, make sure you get out and try other things to make sure.

 

[NurWollen]

Speaking of sinking in,

"86. Hospitals smell bad"

The smells of certain parts of the hospital are particularly powerful; they sear into your memory.

Apparently olfaction is very closely tied to neural memory circuits.

Touring hospitals across the country for residency interviews, scenes from third year on the wards came rushing back.

Sounds fun! So, when you talk about smell, is it the smell of infected, puss-filled wounds, vomit, and bodily fluids, or is it the smell of organic solvents? Both?

 

[doozenberg]

Sounds fun! So, when you talk about smell, is it the smell of infected, puss-filled wounds, vomit, and bodily fluids, or is it the smell of organic solvents? Both?

It's the smell of fecal matter smeared on bed sheets while doing daily dressing changes at 0500 on a massive open incisional hernia repair wound gone awry on a morbidly obese 47 year-old lady.

It's the smell of a rotting foot of a diabetic vasculopath coming into clinic for a change of his unna boot.

And it's the collective smell of the sweaty gowns of 4 vets next to their bedside commodes who probably haven't showered in weeks all crammed in the same miserable dank room secondary to poor VA circulation.

 

[doozenberg]

Hep C blood, though...if I got splashed with Hep C blood, I'd go home, curl up in the fetal position, and bawl for hours. Hep C blood scares me A LOT.

Immediately post-extubation following relatively uneventful endoscopic sinus surgery, bearded HepC-positive county jail inmate hawks up a huge fresh blood clot about 6 feet into the air in a perfect slow-motion arc, to have it land squarely on my sternal notch with flecks of his HepC blood splattering on my nametag as I am standing there at the foot of the table holding onto his chained ankles. This, of course, just after I decide it is safe to lower my mask+eye shield thing. After making sure none of it got on my mucous membranes or eyeballs, it was probably one of the scariest moments in my life walking over to the scrub sink to violently lather my neck and chest with povidone iodine for like 10 minutes.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

Yea it looks like medical school and residency are really going to suck no matter how you swing it. However, I think it was rule number 42 (it was in bold) that made me realize I am making the right choice. There is really no other career (besides winning the lottery) that I would consider over medicine. Law sucks and doesn't interest me at all, I hate dealing with money/numbers/excel bull**** so business and finance are out, and my only other real option is the biotech industry, which is a bleak miserable 9-5 for 40-years existence. See office space for reference. Oh yea, dentistry.. probably going to get flak for saying this but I think dentists are the biggest jokes ever. More flak: I think getting a PharmD is for girls, those who couldn't hack pre-MD and didn't want to go DO, druggies, and those who are really interested in chemistry. I am none of these.

Honestly, what are these other "much easier" ways of making a solid paycheck? I see it thrown around but honestly in what kind of career can you bank a guaranteed $200k/year even after working for 10 years.

Besides at this point it really is too late to turn back (accepted to med school) even if I do decide that I want to pursue one of these magical easy money careers. By the time I acquire the skills necessary to excel in those fields I would be half way done with my medical training.


edit: oh yea opportunity cost.. giving up my twenties? Psh I hardly had much of a social life in middle school, high school and college. I don't enjoy partying and drinking.. I'd much rather go do something outdoors. Rock climbing or surfing anybody? My ability to go outside doesn't end when I turn 30 or even 40.

Dude! Everything you said was one hundred percent legit! Duh! Med school\Residency kinda suck but we can say it's NOT boring! IMO medicine is the only job that guarantees you a high Six figure salary right out of training. Law, business, finance, humanities....... snores fest. Medicine is stable, respected and thrilling. Lawyers dont earn much and these corporate bosses do earn way more than doctors but where's the fun or need in society to their jobs. Entertainers aren't as educated and have no privacy.

Edit: your 20's are about much more than partying and starting a family.

 

[Microglia]

Dude! Everything you said was one hundred percent legit! Duh! Med school\Residency kinda suck but we can say it's NOT boring! IMO medicine is the only job that guarantees you a high Six figure salary right out of training. Law, business, finance, humanities....... snores fest. Medicine is stable, respected and thrilling. Lawyers dont earn much and these corporate bosses do earn way more than doctors but where's the fun or need in society to their jobs. Entertainers aren't as educated and have no privacy.

Edit: your 20's are about much more than partying and starting a family.

I am going to coin a new term for this:

retrotrolling (rtrolling for short): trolling by reviving an ancient thread

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

I am going to coin a new term for this:

retrotrolling (rtrolling for short): trolling by reviving an ancient thread

How does this affect you? I wasn't trolling but stating my opinion. I bet you and those three people who liked what you wrote though it was clever. Stop being so sensitive.

 

[WillburCobb]

Yes, I did in fact think what Microglia wrote was clever. That is why I liked it.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

Yes, I did in fact think what Microglia wrote was clever. That is why I liked it.

I liked it too bro.

 

[487806]

How does this affect you? I wasn't trolling but stating my opinion. I bet you and those three people who liked what you wrote though it was clever. Stop being so sensitive.

You were joining in on a conversation that was long dead.

 

[Pacna]

Don't try to bring the dead back to life. I doubt you have disability yet, and physicians need their bodies. (If you get this reference, you are awesome)

 

[Optimus-Prime]

from what i understand what residency directors look for is

Step 1> 3rd Year grades> 1st two year grades > Research>>>>>Medical school prestige>>>>>>BS ECs

http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...ads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf