Medical Scribe or Prestigious Non-Clinical Research?

[kay815]

Hello all,

I have encountered quite a predicament, in that I have two great opportunities to choose from to spend my gap year. In one hand, I have the ability to work as a full-time medical scribe. In the other, a prestigious university (Princeton University) has offered me a position as a research assistant in a molecular biology lab. I have some research experience but no publications; in this position, chances may be good to publish. At the same time, I am only beginning to enter the world of clinical exposure and for that reason believe scribing is the best bet. However, it's hard to turn down Princeton. Any thoughts? Thanks!

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[Lake Wobegon]

See posts below

 

[mimelim]

Princeton is a name, nothing more. Doing research there is not prestigious in and of itself. What exactly are you going to be doing in the lab? "Chances may be good to publish" is about as fluffy as you can get.

 

[Pacna]

I am only beginning to enter the world of clinical exposure and for that reason believe scribing is the best bet. However, it's hard to turn down Princeton.

If you have very little clinical exposure, I'd probably go with scribing. If you have no research and a passable amount of clinical exposure, get that research experience.

At least you're stuck between 2 good things.

 

[brokenjaw]

I would do research.

 

[Ismet]

If you are "only beginning to enter the world of clinical exposure," then do the scribing. Unless you can work in clinical volunteering on the weekends during your research gig. You need clinical exposure more than you need research.

 

[sat0ri]

I'm was in a similar situation, except for that the research wasn't prestigious. I decided to scribe FT and do the research PT.

But some more information would help:
How much research (length, hrs/week, independence in lab, etc)? Clinical/basic?
Similiarly, how much clinical exposure (see above)?
Goals (MD/PhD, straight MD, research heavy MD)? Career goals (only keep a few clinic hours, exclusively clinician)?
What is the pay, and do you need the money?
Do you have something or can you get something more explicitly stated as far as publishing goes?
I can tell youre worried about prestige (most of us do, if we're being honest), so do you have any prestigious names or scholarships on your CV? Maybe a fancy summer internship? How well does Princeton fit your overall story of yourself?

I'd say go for the prestigious opportunity only in the case that the first questions don't bias you towards the Sribing. That one is a more elusive chance, you can volunteer to get clinical on the side, and Princeton will stay on your CV from now on; but none of that will matter if you can't get into a medical school in the first place.

EDIT: One last thing, if you do end up leaning towards Princeton, maybe check to make sure that there are in fact clinical exposure opportunities. I know at my school (huge state school with mostly pre-meds), there are nearly no available opportunities. The volunteer list fill-up within the hour they are release, sometimes seniority is a factor, sometimes luck, etc. I can imagine Princeton being competitive in a similar regard. Maybe not, but definitely worth looking into before finalizing a decision.

 

[kay815]

I'm was in a similar situation, except for that the research wasn't prestigious. I decided to scribe FT and do the research PT.

But some more information would help:
How much research (length, hrs/week, independence in lab, etc)? Clinical/basic?
Similiarly, how much clinical exposure (see above)?
Goals (MD/PhD, straight MD, research heavy MD)? Career goals (only keep a few clinic hours, exclusively clinician)?
What is the pay, and do you need the money?
Do you have something or can you get something more explicitly stated as far as publishing goes?
I can tell youre worried about prestige (most of us do, if we're being honest), so do you have any prestigious names or scholarships on your CV? Maybe a fancy summer internship? How well does Princeton fit your overall story of yourself?

I'd say go for the prestigious opportunity only in the case that the first questions don't bias you towards the Sribing. That one is a more elusive chance, you can volunteer to get clinical on the side, and Princeton will stay on your CV from now on; but none of that will matter if you can't get into a medical school in the first place.

EDIT: One last thing, if you do end up leaning towards Princeton, maybe check to make sure that there are in fact clinical exposure opportunities. I know at my school (huge state school with mostly pre-meds), there are nearly no available opportunities. The volunteer list fill-up within the hour they are release, sometimes seniority is a factor, sometimes luck, etc. I can imagine Princeton being competitive in a similar regard. Maybe not, but definitely worth looking into before finalizing a decision.

The research is full time for approximately 1 and a half years. There is some independence-- I'd be working to assist a new postdoc, but would have the opportunity to take on my own projects. The clinical exposure is split between an orthopedic surgeon and the ED, roughly full time (~39 hours a week). Goals is something I'm still trying to figure out; as of right now, MD but I wouldn't rule out MD/PhD. The pay is pretty poor as a scribe (~$10/hour), whereas the research is much better (~$17/hour), but I'm trying not to let money influence the decision too much. Not too much else in terms of prestige, but I have done about 3 semesters and 1 summer of undergrad research. The Princeton research would be a continuation of that, in terms of continuity. Otherwise, I have no current clinical exposure but, in the chance of taking Princeton, do this on the side (weekends, etc).

 

[MDScribe]

I would absolutely take the scribe opportunity! Well I may be a little biased

For me working as a scribe is a win-win. As a pre-med you get alot out of it. Besides having lots of "shadowing hours," this is a chance to interact directly with patients (While the degree of interaction may vary by program you almost certainly will have some opportunities to talk with patients). You will have endless stories and reasons for wanting to become a doctor at your interview!

I do like working in a lab (and that sounds like a great opportunity as well). However, if I had to pick, I'd go with whatever is more clinically relevant.

 

[AttainableDream]

Medical scribe for sure. Clinical exposure is key. Good luck.

 

[Hospitalized]

Biased scribe +1ing the scribe train. I'll just go ahead and tack on one thing that I believe is undervalued exposure for scribes and seldom mentioned here.

The ER gets to be the melting pot for all specialties. You will get to see ER physicians interact with all different kinds of specialties and observe the different personalities and qualities over the vast majority of physicians. For example, a couple things I've noticed is... OB doctors are ALWAYS busy. Orthro surg seems to be always eager to admit and operate. Hospitalists get to have great professional relationships with not only other hospitalists, but ER doctors as well. ENT docs can get called in to help stop epistaxis. Among others! It's always interesting for me to see the different skill sets. ER docs have a plethora of clinical knowledge, but they always know their limits and are not afraid to consult.

 

[kay815]

Thanks for all of the opinions! I have two more quick questions for consideration. Obviously this is a personal choice, but how big of a factor would you all take money to be? Say, if the money was dramatically lopsided (as scribes do not typically pay that well)? In addition, how difficult would it be to find another scribe position? Would it be feasible to scribe, say, after the term of research is done? Princeton is more elusive, but how elusive is the scribe position?

Thanks!

 

[theseeker4]

Thanks for all of the opinions! I have two more quick questions for consideration. Obviously this is a personal choice, but how big of a factor would you all take money to be? Say, if the money was dramatically lopsided (as scribes do not typically pay that well)? In addition, how difficult would it be to find another scribe position? Would it be feasible to scribe, say, after the term of research is done? Princeton is more elusive, but how elusive is the scribe position?

Thanks!

You have to be able to support yourself, but aside from that, you will have to decide how much money you want to make, and how much you will let that influence your decision. Finding a scribe position shouldn't be too hard, but this is highly variable based on location, so hard to say.

 

[kay815]

As for a few more details about the research itself-- it is part neuroscience, part ecology/evolution (it's actually split between the departments), with a strong emphasis on genes/molecular techniques. Not sure if this changes anything.

 

[DrEnderW]

I agree with @mimelim that the Princeton name doesn't mean anything. No one cares when you're at the tech level. What matters is that you are actively involved in a project and conduct yourself in a way that leads to the opportunity to present/publish.

My take is different than most on this thread - scribing is a mere stepping stone. It will not help your career. It's a simple gap year job. It will not help you in medical school or residency. Establishing research skills, expanding your CV, learning how to publish, and beginning to network will help you in medical school and beyond. Having a research background (especially publications) is instrumental in getting future opportunities that will have substantial positive impact in your future.

Also, why can't you get clinical exposure while you're doing this job? I'm assuming it's a 40-50hrs a week thing. I did a ton on the weekends during my research year.

 

[AllThatRacket]

OP, it is my opinion that there are two very important things to keep in mind.

#1 - You absolutely NEED clinical exposure to get accepted to medical school. No one is going to accept you if you don't have it. Now, do you need to have full-time clinical work? Not at all. Only some part-time volunteering is necessary. You just need to be able to talk about it and how it has guided you toward a career in medicine
#2 - If you are interested in going to a "top 30" school or a school with a lot of research opportunities and funding, it is important to get more research experience. Publications could be very helpful.

With those two things combined, I would recommend doing the research and finding a part-time clinical opportunity if you really have your sights set on doing a lot of research in medical school. If you are more interested in service-based schools and really want some good clinical exposure, I think being a scribe is and awesome way to do that. Make sure you also are shadowing doctors if you haven't already!

 

[crossfit4lyfe]

In my opinion, you will make more money doing research. From what I understand scribes get paid crap. But research is boring as heck to me! I am doing it now, and if it weren't for the money I'd quit!

 

[xo7]

Yes, the pay for us scribes (at least at my location) is a measly $9-10 per hour. It's very good clinical experience but just be aware that you will likely feel overqualified and underpaid after you get the hang of it, especially if you're working full-time. You will also sometimes get paired with doctors who treat you poorly or are difficult to work with. Regardless, I would recommend scribing if you need clinical experience and if the pay isn't an issue for you.

 

[sat0ri]

Id say the princeton gig, so long as you get very good clinical exposure somewhere. I'd secure the clinical exposure before accepting anything though. The scribe is the safe be, but there is a way to split the proverbially horn here, and as a premed, you should be used to working hard to get the best of all worlds. If you get 50 hours shadowing, 150 clinically volunteering you'll be good, and you have time to double those numbers. Scribing you'll hit those numbers in a month or two and the remaining 10 months you won't be improving your app significantly anymore.

 

[Hospitalized]

I agree with @mimelim that the Princeton name doesn't mean anything. No one cares when you're at the tech level. What matters is that you are actively involved in a project and conduct yourself in a way that leads to the opportunity to present/publish.

My take is different than most on this thread - scribing is a mere stepping stone. It will not help your career. It's a simple gap year job. It will not help you in medical school or residency. Establishing research skills, expanding your CV, learning how to publish, and beginning to network will help you in medical school and beyond. Having a research background (especially publications) is instrumental in getting future opportunities that will have substantial positive impact in your future.

Also, why can't you get clinical exposure while you're doing this job? I'm assuming it's a 40-50hrs a week thing. I did a ton on the weekends during my research year.

I must say, I've heard quite the contrary to this from quite a few former scribes. What you put into scribing is what you will get out of it, just like medical school. Many have said that they appreciate all of the exposure to the language, culture, and clinical decision making. Doctor's within the program I'm in are told they can ask questions they would ask to a resident to a scribe, even if they won't be able to answer it-- simply for the thought process and challenge. If you're proactive and ask doctor's why they are thinking x for case y, they will often go into great detail and give you a clinical basis for decision making. I look forward to every shift I work because of the knowledge I can obtain, even if it's only one thing in a shift. (For instance, learning how to calculate an anion gap) The great thing about scribing in the ER is there are many cases that come up multiple times, and if I get confused about clinical decision making or a medical concept, I can ask different doctors on different shifts and they will give me their own explanation with a personal spin.

With that said, I have also heard that research is a very valuable tool as well. I cannot say one is better then another because I have not done research yet (starting next fall in genetics), but clinical exposure is a must. You NEED to know what you are getting into and what kind of people you will be dealing with.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

I must say, I've heard quite the contrary to this from quite a few former scribes. What you put into scribing is what you will get out of it, just like medical school. Many have said that they appreciate all of the exposure to the language, culture, and clinical decision making. Doctor's within the program I'm in are told they can ask questions they would ask to a resident to a scribe, even if they won't be able to answer it-- simply for the thought process and challenge. If you're proactive and ask doctor's why they are thinking x for case y, they will often go into great detail and give you a clinical basis for decision making. I look forward to every shift I work because of the knowledge I can obtain, even if it's only one thing in a shift. (For instance, learning how to calculate an anion gap) The great thing about scribing in the ER is there are many cases that come up multiple times, and if I get confused about clinical decision making or a medical concept, I can ask different doctors on different shifts and they will give me their own explanation with a personal spin.

With that said, I have also heard that research is a very valuable tool as well. I cannot say one is better then another because I have not done research yet (starting next fall in genetics), but clinical exposure is a must. You NEED to know what you are getting into and what kind of people you will be dealing with.

+1

Scribing has helped me tremendously. It is an absolutely wonderful clinical experience, and I would highly recommended it to any premed who doesn't want to do boring hospital volunteering. Also, research isn't important for those of us who don't care about research. Like, I'll do a lil bit of it in med school just to become competitive for residency match and stuff. But my end goal is to be the best clinician possible, not researcher. And being a scribe lets me be exposed to real clinicians doing their thing every day.

 

[bluejay456]

Do the research and scribe part time on the weekends. That's what I do

 

[aegistitan]

It matters what type of research. Is it basic science? I'm guessing so in a molecular biology lab. You may not be able to get pubs out as fast as you think unless you already have a project you know how to approach without troubleshooting.

 

[unicorn416]

Just adding a similar sentiment - I was in a similar situation when I decided to take a gap year and I chose to scribe (and am currently doing so). Yeah, the pay isn't great (I have a second job), but I think the clinical exposure/shadowing/interactions with various physicians and healthcare professionals makes the experience worth it. It depends on where you work, but I've worked with 40 or so different physicians as a scribe, which has given me a huge array of personalities and styles to observe. I felt that when I did my secondary apps and during my interviews, I had so much to talk about in regards to clinical exposure, ethical scenarios, and healthcare systems. And as previously stated, you really do get to see a variety of specialities in the ED.

 

[radiologyology]

Of everything I did as far as ECs, I think my year as a scribe benefited me the most. I'm not sure why others think scribing is trivial in the long run.

Just a few points of how the scribe job can benefit you:

• Understanding of the medical decision making process. Initial interview -> PMH -> PEx-> Labwork&Radiology->Diagnosis and Treatment
• You can learn a ton of etiology. You're always carrying around a laptop, so I would learn everything I could about something I didn't know about by using google. After a while, I could link common conditions to their lab values and radiology.
• You get to witness tons of cool procedures: chest tubes, central lines, local anesthesia, skin staples/sutures, dislocation reductions, intubation, etc.
• Interesting/uncommon presentations. This is something you can talk about in interviews (I saw a rare case where the vascular surgeon consulted had only seen something similar twice in his 30 years of practice. I saw nec fasc, gangrene requiring amputation, a pediatric code, aortic dissection, mca occlusion, traumas and tons of the more "grim" cases of medicine that I think were invaluable in understanding of what medicine can be like at times.)
• Learn about emergent presentations and what to do: DKA, resp distress, CVA, PE, aneurysm, pneumothorax, etc.
• You can witness good physician-patient interaction. Further, you can witness the dynamics of the work life in a hospital between all of the staff.
• Finally, the many issues that physicians encounter on a daily basis: unable to communicate with the patient, non-compliance, family-life problems, intoxication, addiction, aggressive behavior, malpractice from other care facilities, psychiatric disorders, handling patients brought in by police, and much more.
  

 

[bruwin2011]

It depends if you have a weakness in either clinical hours or research hours. Clinical hours are a must, however there are many hospitals that will allow you to volunteer during the weekend. Researching is not a requirement, however it is a red flag if you have never done it. If you already have both and are deciding on what is best, I would say take the research job.

With doing research, it gives you an opportunity to send updates with any abstracts or publications that go out with your name on them. In addition, your PI will be able to write you a letter vs. with scribing you might be working with a lot of people and not have as much contact with one person who can write you a letter of rec. Also with scribing, there isn't a lot of measurable growth/updates you can send to med schools (research you can talk about new projects etc.) so you would have to put more effort into doing more volunteer work or activities.

 

[kay815]

Thank you all for your opinions! There were some great points made and a lot of information to take into consideration. If anyone is still wondering or would like an update, I did end up choosing the scribe position. I felt that the clinical exposure was too valuable to pass up. While Princeton was certainly nice, I probably would have only been pursuing the name.

Thank you all for your help!

 

[Ace Khalifa]

You're welcome!

I would also like to say that the phrase "researching is not a requirement, but it is a red flag if you've never done it" is BS. How does that make any sense? If it's not a requirement, then by definition one can not have research on their app and be fine. Not all of us want to be researchers when we finish medical school. Many of us want to be on the front lines in whatever specialty (primary care or not) we choose. I want to specialize but only do clinical work - I only care about being a strong clinician.

OP, I think you made the right choice in the long run. Scribing is an awesome experience and you will learn a lot from it.